I like Evoras's proposal for the most part. I still wouldnt agree with increased stats or power (unless thats only a starting bonus that evens out later).
Another thing is I would feel compelled to race to get say Bard (I want it for my main afterall), so that is what Id do. And I wouldnt want that knowledge hidden. If a class offers a play style that I might like better than the current line up I would not want that to be "secret". If I leveled up a character only to find out later that I could not even progeny it into that progeny class I wanted, I would feel very bitter about it. For now I need to level up a new race/class combo to just to progeny it for that special progeny only class.
And again I say keep class paths or specializations within normal character progression.
As a side note: Its a great idea to include new hybrid races and brand new classes into progeny, but that will be quite a bit of work on the dev team. New classes and new hybrid races and new gear for them wont come from thin air.
There are three ways that come to mind when I think of retirement, that would leave the character to still be accessable and useful and not have to be deleted. They could be stand-alone, or combined in any way.
Retired Vet rolls back into action when disaster strikes
I could think of being retired as having a gradual but noticable, and to a certain extent, reversible degredation of skills and abilities. Much like when an athlete, lets say Michael Phelps, retires, his swimming ability will not instantaneously degrade to that of a 5 year old. But, as he is retired and not training for hours a day, his ability WILL degrade over time. But the amount will depend on how often he swims amature, and could be brought back to a high level if he really wanted to...but probably never back to Olympic status. How much a retired character degrades could work in a similar manner.
Lets say that, as a consequence of being retired, your character initially takes a flat penalty, lets say 5% for the sake of discussion,to abilities, or a flat increase to mana cost, or any of a number of things that just make him slightly less effective. This will reflect that he is not, in fact, adventuring full time. And this penalty can increase in line with how much 'productive' play time is spent on the retired character compared to their Progeny. Maybe capping at something like a 50% debuff, which would correspond to a character that is seldomly, if ever, played any more. But suddenly a gnoll army starts to invade the village where he retired, and he needs to swing back into action. So weapons get taken down from mantlepieces, and armor is pulled out of the attic, and battle is engaged. He will not be nearly as effective after years (game time, so maybe weeks or months RL) out of the field, so his sword won't swing as hard or as fast, or she may not sling spells as quickly or mana efficiently... But, in a pinch, they could be effective. And over time and as needed, they could begin to approach their former level of effectiveness. There would still be reduced effectiveness for retirement, but maybe not so much that a character could not be used in a pinch, if still played fairly often.
edit: this could be used in conjunction with either of the other two options. And as an alternative to playing the character a lot, maybe there would be a quest, or large item/in game currency price, that would be paid to bring the character back into close-to-full combat effectiveness for a period of time
Retired Vet becomes a trainer
I actually just thought of this one as I was re-reading the first section. IF mentoring is to be introduced in Pantheon, this could be a way to approach it. Retired characters are reduced in effectiveness, and can be able to take on the role of trainer to new adventurers. Their abilities could be decreased because they are not used as often, and they might not be as well geared because they equipped their Progeny for high adventure (ie. have a low-medium default armor/weapon set, or one that could be scaled appropriately according to the average level of the group they are in, with a max level of 40). Spells would either be reduced in effectiveness/duration to scale down appropriately, or access to higher level spells would be denied (for the sake of immersion I would like the first, but for the sake of not being overpowering, I favor the second...tough call here!)
Retired characters can contribute in other ways
Another thought I had is that maybe a retired character could still stick around and be accessable and useful, but in a non-combat role. I don't know how many books/stories/etc I have read where seasoned adventurers retire and then take up a profession. Blacksmith, tailor, armorer, herbalist, diplomat, etc....older retired adventurers often take up supportive roles in tales. This way, you could take the character out of the action, so to say, but people would still have access to the character that they spent so much time on, and they could still perform a useful role in the game.
@Umbra - Completely agree. If I were to retire a character it'd have to be tempted with a pretty significant motivator. But if that were true it'd almost make it a requirement to go the route of retirement of a character in order to get the additional benefits. It'd almost encourage people to create throw-away characters just to get to the character they actually wanted to play.
@Evoras - as always, a great write-up and detailed description :)
@Aradune - I support the notion of trying to get people to play alts, for many reasons not the least being the time-sync and the replayability aspects. It provides a new perspective of play, it allows you to explore areas you might not have previously explored, etc. etc. I am very thankful that you're willing to discuss options on the system. Granted, we dont have much information at all at this point, but this community is plenty capable of coming up with interesting thoughts. :)
Because I am highly resistant to retiring a character, I posted a different notion a few months ago. My thought was that instead of forcing retirement of a main in order to provide benefit to alts, you instead flip the idea and encourage the playing of alts in order to provide benefit to the main character. You still get people to do many of the same things, and can in fact encourage them to do even more with alts. I'd love comments on that system as well. : https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3466/an-alternative-to-progeny
Personally, I'm looking for a game to play for years and the progeny system has awesome potential to help with this. I love the idea.
Level your character
Maybe to max. Maybe not quite. Maybe do a special (if not epic) quest to unlock the possibility of being a progenitor.
Retire your character
I'm quite happy with having to fully stop playing that character, but maybe you could log in for purely social occassions. Still lead a guild. Still lead a raid, even: not fight, but give orders etc.
Maybe a retired warrior could still run the family smithy? Losing a character is a lot. Losing a crafter too is very harsh.
Choose a Spose
NPC vendor: Just choose and 'buy' your spose: A dowry/sacrifice.
NPC encounter: Maybe do a quest to win the parents approval or lead a raid to steal your intended away!
PC agreement: Get hitched and do a joint retirement. Aahh how romantic.
Race / Class unlock
Retire your dark-elf shadowknight: Choose a wood-elf druid 'spose'.
The progeny can be a previously impossible dark-wood-elf druid or wood-dark-elf shadowknight.
New race/class
Though graphics-development-wise a new hybrid race/class would be prohibitive, I'm sure, perhaps allowing a dark-wood-elf to have say dark green skin rather than dark blue (dark-elf) or light-green (wood-elf) would be fine in the character creator screens. I would love this.
As for hybrid classes, that would probably be even more prohibitive development-wise, but allowing things like cosmetic wearing of the other classes armor might be nice.
New Abilities
Well, not new, but chosen from the other parent's class perhaps? Maybe the dark-wood-elf druid could raise a skeletal servant once a week or the wood-dark-elf shadow-knight could summon the Spirit of the Wolf once a day?
Faction
Perhaps a dark-wood-elf is tolerated in the non-dominant racial area (in order to allow training in their unusual class). Still not welcomed - well, not until proving themselves trustworthy.
Inheritance
The progenitor can pass on no-drop items to their progeny. Where classes differ this would become a cosmetic only item. Where they are similar it would be scaled down until the progeny 'comes of age' (I think this should happen in general - I dislike twinking - but the mechanic here is doubly appropriate).
UNDO!
It's such a very major decision that some way to 'trade in' your Progeny and get your Progenitor back might well be appropriate.
I really like to try various race and classes - I usually run several through the first 10 or 20 levels before I decide which I prefer - it would be very good to be able to 're-progenitise' if I A) decide I want my max-level character back or B) decide I want to try a different Progeny race-class.
Other
On a quick re-read I realise I've concentrated on progeny as unlocking different class-race possibilities. I guess that's what most excites me about the progeny idea.
BUT sure there should be good reasons to simply start human warrior Killem son of Killem the human warrior.
Stats
You get into balance issues, obviously, but it might be nice to get an initial boost that levels out toward the progeny's max level. It can't totally level out, though, coz to have a progeny bonus that effectively eventually disappears would be a tad poopy.
Crafting
A nice alternative to letting a progentor remain as a crafter would be to allow additional crafting skills for progeny, ie. you can have the normal 2 + one of your progenitor's.
Not having to switch to alts to accomplish complex crafting inter-dependencies would be a very nice boost. It would perhaps detrimentally effect the social aspect of crafting though to have independency in this way, but heck, having to retire a max level alt isn't going to be common is it? Or is it?
Going above max
For stats and abilities allowing a 'bonus' for progeny could get imbalancing, but perhaps there's ways to do it that aren't too bad. I'll leave the calculations to the devs, but there must be ways that a bonus even to max stats/abilites would have diminishing returns or such so that a the great-great-great-great-grand-daughter in a line of mages does have some stat/skill advantage (for those extreme min-maxers out there) but nothing that makes INT skill checks trivial.
You have to always keep in mind ...
'what problem is this mechanic seeking to address?'
From this everything else flows:
1. Benefits for a 'progeny' Alt should be 'a carrot' to provide an incentive for people to do somthing that benefits the game as a whole. Thus, any benefit that causes people to 'rush to 50' must not be added. So, for example, if 'Bard Class' was *only* available through progeny then everyone who really wants to play one will rush/PL etc to get there. This is the *opposite* of what is needed or intended.
2. Any benefits handed out to the new progeny must scale from Biggest (deleted character) to Middle (semi-Retired) to Smallest (not Retired). This implies that the beneifts must be 'scalable' in the first place. Something like 'unlocking a class' is not really scalable.
Hence the criteria I proposed:
A. COST
Progeny creation (and the bonuses) should have a cost in plat and items. It shouldn't be a simple 'click here to restart' but it shouldn't take forever either. If the proposed benefits have criteria (eg in my proposal you could aim for a progeny not of your race - but for this to be possible you needed to raise your faction and language for that race to 'freidnly' at least) then the player needs to meet these.
B. BENEFIT
These are meant to be a carrot to provide an incentive to create a new character... not to race to 50.
Eg:
1. Hybrid Races:
They *look* like one of the parents, but they may have bonuses that do not match one alone. Eg Human + Elf = Half-Elf. May *look* human say ... but may have infravision. It may also get some of the faction bonuses for both races (and perhaps some negatives for racial enemies of both). It could, though, use 1 of the 2 racial models but with the *other* (or blended) skin textures.
2. Stat bonuses:
These will, realistically, only affect the first 20 levels of a character's development. Even a bonus of +10 for a stat of 100 would ammount to nothing by the time the character is level 50 with item bonuses of +100 or more from items and another +30-50 from level and AAs. Bonuses can also be 'affinity to elements' or 'realms' since Terminus has many of these and they are (to an extent) Racial in derivation. They could include +RR vs certain things.
3. Gameplay / Admin
The benefit *might* be as simplae as a shared bank account slot with the main (as they are related). Or it might be a special 'progeny only' title.
4. Inherited factions
The benefit might be some 'faction' values inherited from the creator. If you got to 'Max Ally (faction +32,000) with High_Elves, then it stands to a certain ammount of reason that your progeny may start with +3200 faction (say) with High_Elves beyond what they *would* start with for their race/class combo. Of course, same applies for negative faction i guess :)
5. Variant Classes
There is a danger here (as stated above) that this kind of 'benefit' would cause people to race to the end. When I say 'variant' class, I am thinking specifically of poeple who play Class #1, get to 50 and start a progeny 'as the same Class #A'. In this case, they have already played *that* class from level 1-50. What we don't want is for them to just do this all over again. So, here we have the opportunity to use some of the things Brad already talked about with regards to classes having 'rites of passage' as various points in thei careers to define 'points of focus' that their charcater may choose. I.e. do they choose to focus on the 'core abilities' of that class, or do they opt for something with a slightly different focus, though still firmly within the core role for that class.
So a 'variant class' for a progeny would be a version, of some kind, of that class which is still within the core role for the class, but is either specialised on a specific aspect within that class' heart, or is focused at the periophery of the role, specialising in an are slightly away from the 'centre'. Since the progeny is strateing at level 1, these variations would not become obvious until level 20+ *and* would need the player to seek *different* Master NPCs hidden about the world.
So, not a 'new class' at all, but a form of 'variant archetype' within the class role.
Hope this illuminates what I meant.
EDIT: PS excellent post Disposalist - You must have posted it while I was still typing away! hehe
Still somewhat uneasy about progeny. It'd be great if the rewards were something like a new race hybrid, or maybe inherit some utility/buff ability from the parent class. Hell, improved pre-level cap stats would be good too, family heirloom items like a necklace, ring, or early mount (no XP buff and no crazy epic stats), gold inheritance. Faction rep for sure.
On the other hand permanent stat boosts, specially if they compound for every "progeny" is just a bad idea.
Aradune said:But if the higher level player isn't retired, is it fair to allow that person to create alts with some added benefits? I honestly don’t see where it’s not – if you do, please speak up. So for the sake of this discussion, I'm willing to remove the retirement part and think about it for a while -- is there something I'm missing?
Who said they expected to be able to create an alt with added benefits? I am a pretty regular vistor of a couple different MMO gaming forums, and I've read quite a bit on what people have to say about various games: what they like, dont like, etc. And I don't recall anyone ever saying "Gee, I wish there was an MMO out there where I could retire my main character that I've spent months or years developing so I create an alt that will have just a few extra perks".
Maybe there are some people that want that, maybe there's even some games out there that already have something like that in place, I don't know. I just don't think it's something that many MMO players are asking for, or expect.
I see what you are saying about wanting to allow people the chance to play different classes/races and get a different experience from their first time around, but that's something most people do anyway. In my days of EQ and other MMO's, most people I knew had alts that they played, as did I. Many had several alts. We did it because we just liked playing from different perspectives. We didn't need any kind of motivation from developers. If you just provide us with a large open world full of diverse classes and races, great lore, and fun places to explore, I'm sure many people will play alts on their own just so they experience as much of Pantheon as they can.
SIMPLISTIC MODEL:
Many players have, and play, Alts. Some, however, are singular in their focus on a 'main' to the exclusion of all else. These people *tend* to level more quickly, thus ensuring that these more focused players will be sitting far longer at 'max level' that any other group/set of players. The 'progeny' system is a possible incentive for these people to get them to create, and actually play, an Alt (rather than just make a 'support Alt' or 'banker alt'). As an incentive, it obviously must offer a benefit for them. The rest is about (i) ensuring they *do* play this alt, and (ii) finding a 'cost' to balance the 'advantage' the Alt will get (in order to balance risk vs reward).
@Kromiv:
Aradune/Brad was approaching the concept/mechanic from the other direction. It wasn;t that he thinks there are people out there clamouring to kill off their main at max level in order to restart :) The whole point of the progeny system was to:
reinforce 'the journey being the game' by giving players an incentive to stop just continually investing in their main and to create an Alt. I.e. 'go back and explore some more!'
reinvigorate the lower/starter zones by creating 'churn' in the system. Remember, over time, the server 'matures' moving the preponderence of players from being weighted at the low levels towards one where the weight is towards the top - server population by level moving from a pyramid to an inverted pyramid if you like.
But, if you are planning of offering an incentive, this needs to be balanced by a cost. There also need to be checks and balances to ensure that this is not 'too advantageous'. Hence the 'obvious' suggestion that you 'retire' your main to balance this new Alt getting an 'advantage' (the incentive). It quickly becomes apparent to most players that the very people you *want* to invest in an Alt (the 'focused' or monomaniacal players who stick with the one avatar to the exclusion of all else) are the very people 'permenant retirement of the Main' will least appeal to. Hence the suggestion I, and many others, have made about 'Semi-Retirement' or 'Retirement-Lite' options.
@Feyshtey
Re: Matriarchy/Patriarchy.
This is actually a (form of) idea I have been mooting for a while now - though in a different form (not derived from progeny mechanics, that is). It derives fromt he concept of your account being a 'family'.
For your account, you choose a 'family' name. This is akin to a 'surname'. (Eg = 'Borgia').
Families can be considered analogous to single-account Guilds.
1. Each character is a member of the family. The name given is a 'first' or 'given' name. (Eg = 'Lucretia).
2. One character on the account is the 'head of the family'. He maintains this until 'retired' or 'killed'.
3. All further family member are 2nd in line, etc. Thus a fmaily tree is built up.
4. All Alts' actions affect the 'family name'. Lesser memebers of the family have less impact on the family name (read: fame/faction). This means that Alts actually generate influence for the 'family' in the same way.
5. The main had the most impact on the family name and is held 'responsible' for the sins of any of the family.
6. The 'main' (ie Head of the Family) must name an 'heir'.
In my vision, the 'heir' was the one who came to locate/drag your body for CR's.
The Heir takes over as head of the family should you 'retire' the main. The effect of retirement was that he loses influnce, while the heir gains (a proportion) of it. Influnce includes faction, how NPCs view your family, your standing vs other families in the city etc.
A 'retired' Main, could be re-made into 'head of the Family' again, but the family would again lose influence overall since the current head loses more than the new heir gains in every case.
7. Resources generated by any family member are collected by that character in the same way as normal, except that there is a tax/tithe for the 'family'.
Thus while you are as a player seeking to level-up your character, you are actually investing in 'levelling up your 'family'. In much the same way that Guilds try to level up, so should your family. Thus your 'family' may reach level 10 and be entitles to a certain title etc.
The family could 'buy' or 'earn' Noble titles, or perhaps civic ones. These titles can be worn by your 'head' with the 'heir' getting a lesser one etc. For an easily understandable example - imagine by family level-100 you had managed to wrangle the title 'King'. You head of family would be 'king', the heir 'Prince' or 'princess' with the others perhaps being given lesser titles such as 'Duke'.
So in answer to your point - yes, I had (sort-of) considered and liked the idea of your family (read: account) being the thing you were invested in - not any of your characters in particular.
Whoa: this post has run on!
Some great posts in this thread. I really really hope the Pants People make something special of this Progeny idea.
Personally I do get bored of the inevitable raid cycle at end-game / max-level and do end up trying out different race-class combos.
Yes, I'm hoping Pantheon has much more variety and fun and thus longevity in the end-game, but the idea of actually getting something special for using the Progeny system and even possibly making new class-race combos is awesome even with the rather large potential sacrifice of 'retiring' max-level characters.
Go Go Go Pants People Progeny Project!
Some great ideas to be sure, but I'm still stuck on the mix/maxing And potential abuse point. And, I hate being a cynic on the progeny idea as I do see the benefit it is intending to do, but I just don't see how it can be properly implemented.
If the benefits are good enough to retire a player than everyone will do it. Level up max character to 50 (easiest to level) retire + bonuses, reroll, and do it again, progeny 2.0 + bonuses, level up, retire max character, rinse and repeat. And, I don't think many players would be retiring to group with newbies, but with their alt friends or guild progenies.
However, if the benefits aren't good enough, then you won't get people retiring characters anyway and there's no point.
I also still think the only people who would use the progeny system as intended would be those who would create alts and group with others regardless if the system was implemented or not. If stat bonuses were given, I'd see more abuse from mix/maxers and guilds.
Even for mixed race options, if there was a significant advantage to it, it would be no different.
I get the reasoning behind it, but I haven't read a solution yet that would avoid the inevitable loop of a level 50 power leveling their level 1 progeny buddy and rinse/repeat.
If it was going to be implemented, the only way I see it working would be similar to FFXI which I had discussed over on the champion forums In Feyshtey's thread.
http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3542/my-idea-for-the-progeny-system-champion-edition
Create something similar to the legacy system that SWTOR has, with a pantheon twist of course. It allows for the benefits of alts to be applied to all your characters. It would encourage leveling toons without sacrificing your main.
I like the potential of the progeny system, and i also like the aim of the system. but i do think that in order to get me to retire a max level character the benefits should be immense and borderline game breaking. also tying me to the same class to get the full benefits of progeny is a no-go. so here are some ideas to get me to retire a character.
1. All AA's transfer to the new character, get to keep one ability from the parent, new classes/races only available to progeny.
2. Stat bonus based on retired class, new classes/races only available to progeny.
3. A piece of special progeny gear of Epic tier (levels with the character), new classes/races only available to progeny. aquiring a full set of epic tier gear is possible through progeny. with one piece per retired character.
if its not one of these or benefits of similar level then i cant see retireing a character. now sacrificing items from your main for points that are useable to purchase benefits for the progeny is a neat idea ( i think we have all been on raids or groups where a high end item that noone needs has dropped. this could be a useful way to dispose of them, but i think that the number of points spent per character should be uncapped with softcaps on stats being the only bottleneck. if you have the patience to grind the gear and sacrifice it to the gods of terminus you could feesably end up with a character that has 255 in each stat at level 1 and full AAs, but these points should be used to unlock the progeny races or classes too.
Raidan said:Some great ideas to be sure, but I'm still stuck on the mix/maxing And potential abuse point. And, I hate being a cynic on the progeny idea as I do see the benefit it is intending to do, but I just don't see how it can be properly implemented.
If the benefits are good enough to retire a player than everyone will do it. Level up max character to 50 (easiest to level) retire + bonuses, reroll, and do it again, progeny 2.0 + bonuses, level up, retire max character, rinse and repeat. And, I don't think many players would be retiring to group with newbies, but with their alt friends or guild progenies.
However, if the benefits aren't good enough, then you won't get people retiring characters anyway and there's no point.
I also still think the only people who would use the progeny system as intended would be those who would create alts and group with others regardless if the system was implemented or not. If stat bonuses were given, I'd see more abuse from mix/maxers and guilds.
Even for mixed race options, if there was a significant advantage to it, it would be no different.
I get the reasoning behind it, but I haven't read a solution yet that would avoid the inevitable loop of a level 50 power leveling their level 1 progeny buddy and rinse/repeat.
If it was going to be implemented, the only way I see it working would be similar to FFXI which I had discussed over on the champion forums In Feyshtey's thread.
http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3542/my-idea-for-the-progeny-system-champion-edition
I understand your concerns Raidan. Perhaps Progeny PL manufacturing could be made extremely difficult if not obtrusive. Consider a lengthy 'time-played' mechanism for the parent. Coupled with minimum levels of reputation for any number of factions (I'm not suggesting rep grinds however), a minimum of specific content completeled by the parent, and of course the price point for the Dowry. I'm also not suggesting that the process be overly intrusive for any player. I think the process needs to be stretched out in ways that make Progeny ovens obtrusive.
I also don't think the reason for Progeny should have anything to do with stat bonuses either. Keep that out.
I also see racial hybridization difficult for the devs if every combination of racial offspring is determined. Not to mention the faction rep, quests, and other related effects full hybridization would entail. It adds up to a lot of work. And what would an Ogre - Gnome look like?
I'm almost inclined to think that the Progeny system might be the design to introduce new classes. I'm not certain how others would feel about this if it would be so.
*** Just popped in my head. The Nymph: An Elven / Dark Myr Druid Enchanter hybrid. Make it happen!!! Lol, J/K
Aradune said:We have to first go back to the purpose for such a system -- one of its primary goals is to reward a player who has leveled up a character to max level by encouraging him to create alts and experience the game again, albeit from a different perspective, and ideally in such a way that feels different and new enough that it’s a lot of fun. It's about replayability.
I would ask that you also consider this from the point of view of someone who is very main-focused. For that sort of person, "rewarding" a player by encouraging him or her to make alts could very much be a punishment to that player instead of a reward depending on the circumstances.
For me, if the progeny system ends up being just about bonuses during leveling or visual appearance, then I don't mind one way or the other. However, if there are bonuses -- additional abilities, stats, that sort of thing -- that accrue to the alt and persist even at max level that I have no way of obtaining with my original character, that's where I start to worry. If I feel I need to start over in order to be the best that I can be, regardless of whether the original toon becomes unplayable or not, that'll be a definite downer as I tend to get attached to my main. Yet, I also want to make sure I'm as competitive as I can be and having to make a choice between that and playing a character I've become attached to -- it's a decision I'll end up second guessing and even regretting for as long as I play the game regardless of which choice I make.
So, if this is mostly about encouraging someone like me to create more alts, what could be appealing? While I can't speak for anyone else, allowing me to invert the system so that instead of any persistent, max-level rewards accruing to my alt those are awarded to my main instead. I've never been an alt person, and the only alts I've ever been motivated to play are those that are in service to my main (for example, as a solo farmer or money maker) and giving me the option to invert the system would be what encourages me to make alts -- and make it feel like a reward instead of a punishment.
I know this has been brought up before as an alternative.
For every class/race/profession have an ability that unlocks after certain milestones are achieved at a high level. The ability should be for a class/race/profession that was not the current character's main. Once unlocked, the ability heads into a family repository that any character on the account can select from. Collect them all.
This rewards long-term players with more abilities to select during leveling, encourages multiple play throughs for specific abilities, can be explained with lore by experiencing the classes/races/professions of Terminus, and can be renamed to the Kin system or something more fitting than progeny.
tehtawd said: Hi guys. This one is for Aradune(Brad), The progeny system to me is really fun. And while I'd like to join in the fun of it, there is one small nuance which really bugs me. The progeny system is heavily implied that your main character is passing on physical attributes to "offspring". Now there is discussion of mixing races to get some arguably fun combinations. My concern is where is there representation of the lone warrior who trains a youth? The orphaned girl who is raised by a same sex couple of raised with a single parent or two brothers who lost their sister? I don't want to feel like every single story ends in the same way. It simply doesn't. Please do not underestimate the 'emergence' of life and how powerful that is. This is really important to me and others. Sent via mobile -Todd
Great points -- if the transferrence from family patriarch or matriarch to the offspring was magical in nature then it wouldn't have to make sense.... A human could pass his blessing on to a young ogre whom he considers his step son, etc. In fact, keeping it to the magical and not tying ourselves down with species and DNA and what's inheritable and not, especially in a fantasy world, seems very appealing and a good way not to get a huge headache. Perhaps it could be more a magical birthright that is handed down on special occasions....
Thalendor said:Aradune said:We have to first go back to the purpose for such a system -- one of its primary goals is to reward a player who has leveled up a character to max level by encouraging him to create alts and experience the game again, albeit from a different perspective, and ideally in such a way that feels different and new enough that it’s a lot of fun. It's about replayability.
I would ask that you also consider this from the point of view of someone who is very main-focused. For that sort of person, "rewarding" a player by encouraging him or her to make alts could very much be a punishment to that player instead of a reward depending on the circumstances.
For me, if the progeny system ends up being just about bonuses during leveling or visual appearance, then I don't mind one way or the other. However, if there are bonuses -- additional abilities, stats, that sort of thing -- that accrue to the alt and persist even at max level that I have no way of obtaining with my original character, that's where I start to worry. If I feel I need to start over in order to be the best that I can be, regardless of whether the original toon becomes unplayable or not, that'll be a definite downer as I tend to get attached to my main. Yet, I also want to make sure I'm as competitive as I can be and having to make a choice between that and playing a character I've become attached to -- it's a decision I'll end up second guessing and even regretting for as long as I play the game regardless of which choice I make.
So, if this is mostly about encouraging someone like me to create more alts, what could be appealing? While I can't speak for anyone else, allowing me to invert the system so that instead of any persistent, max-level rewards accruing to my alt those are awarded to my main instead. I've never been an alt person, and the only alts I've ever been motivated to play are those that are in service to my main (for example, as a solo farmer or money maker) and giving me the option to invert the system would be what encourages me to make alts -- and make it feel like a reward instead of a punishment.
There are definitely many players who like to stick with their original character and keep focussing on it. Even if they do occasionally dabble with alts, they have a special connection with their main.
Certainly as discussed, the Progeny system falls short here in that it doesn't encourage replayability for that type of player....
Perhaps there should be alternatives. Worth thinking about.
I don't think, though, that even if an alt gets a bonus that somehow a player who only plays one character is somehow diminished or should necessarily be bothered....
Aradune said:There are definitely many players who like to stick with their original character and keep focussing on it. Even if they do occasionally dabble with alts, they have a special connection with their main.
Certainly as discussed, the Progeny system falls short here in that it doesn't encourage replayability for that type of player....
Perhaps there should be alternatives. Worth thinking about.
I don't think, though, that even if an alt gets a bonus that somehow a player who only plays one character is somehow diminished or should necessarily be bothered....
There could be a reincarnation mode where players start over as their exact character, name and all, but still get whatever benefit the system would entail. Still probably wouldn't appeal to a lot of players who just don't want to start over, but nothing appeals to everyone.
Why not consider a set of bonuses shared by both? The master and student grow together. The higher you get your alt the stronger the main gets and in the end both are better for sharing their efforts.
The son is blessed to have parents. The parents are blessed to receive a child. Seeing the child grow is a blessing and so is the growth for the child.
You know.. I'd make a ton of alts if this scaled with alts.
Imagine packing your server shard with all 8 character slots with max lvl toons to get all the bonuses.
You know. I really like this idea and I usually hate alts.
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-Todd
Aradune said:One of the other questions that comes up is will there be any restrictions as to who these augmented alts can be? If, for example, they are the offspring of a mighty human warrior and a beautiful ashen elf wizard, then it wouldn't make any sense if that alt could be any race or class, especially race. Does this restriction add to the system? Perhaps it does -- if you want all sorts of augmented alts that are a variety of races and classes, then perhaps you need to bring multiple characters up to this level necessary to use the Progeny system. Maybe that's good and encourages even more replayability.
And the last big question that keeps coming up is 'just what are these augmentations, these advantages?' And will they create an imbalance? Will these alts be crazy powerful and damage the balance and fun of the lower level game? Well, that's the easiest one to answer: no, of course we couldn't let that happen. I'm confident that whatever these advantages might be that they could be measurably beneficial, truly noticeable, yet not so powerful that balance is harmed or that nobody will want to group with regular characters.
The race thing is something I haven't thought of. But I would agree if you have a high level Human then progeny bonuses shouldn't apply to your Ogre alt unless you want to get into half-breeds which is not within the scope of the game.
Another factor I brought up elsewhere is, how is the bonus claimed onto the character? At character creation you should have the option to view progeny bonuses available to your account, based on the characters you have and their level. You apply the bonus at character creation rather than being some inherit stat boost that constantly evolves as your higher level characters’ level. It would make sense for a bonus to be applied at birth, not continuously. And you should only be able to apply 1 bonus, simply for balance reasons.
Regarding the benefit, you could have the benefit be based off the class of the parent. Say you have a level 50 Human Warrior and you create a level 1 Human Rogue. You could apply your “Warrior” progeny bonus and the Rogue may have slightly enhanced Strength, Constitution and Stamina. Even if you apply the Warrior progeny bonus to a Wizard, you still gain the same enhanced stats. This is sort of like a back story that you select in some D&D games or other types of RPG’s.
I think the best type of bonus, balance wise, would be a simple static stat boost. Say +5 to the boosted stats or whatever else works for Pantheon. I think percentag based bonuses would get really nasty several years down the road. +5 static stats might help at level 1, but wouldn’t be a much of a balance issue at level 50. Small boost also wouldn't, I hope, cause an issue for people who think it's unfair becuase they want to focus on just 1 character. That would be some insane min/maxing that think a small stat boost unbalances the game for you.