Modern MMO technology has sort of shot itself in the foot on this point. 'Seamless' zones means inter0linked chat is the norm and hence a move away from 'zone' chat to 'global chat channels'. As Sevens above points out - this is creating more problems than it selves.
1. Player-based economies work better with local markets. This allows variance in pricing and slows down saturation of goods server-wide.
2. Local markets give higher-level players a good reason to frequent 'town' and 'low-mid level' zones where they would not usually do so.
3. For selling/interacting locally you only need a 'zone' chat channel. This has the advantage of limiting any detrimental impact:
(i) Gold Sellers cannot advertise globally.
(ii) Nor can Guilds just auto-spam the server with invites.
(iIi) Cretins cannot spam the whole server with toxic crud.
(iv) Crafter/vendors need to target their audience, ie be smarter.
4. Contraversial Idea :
There may be some mileage in having 'Guild chat' only range X zones from the Guild-base where X is based on Size/Upgrade of the Guild/GuildHall. This gives Guilds a *reason* to progress and would lead to Guilds being more 'regional' than global.
PS Newbie channels *only* need to exist (if you even want them) alongside starter zones. Better would be a way for other players to 'earn' some form of 'Guide' status which allows them to talk in certain zones with a different colour text from other people. Someting hard to gain, but easy to lose.
Chaoticus said:I just logged into a different game for a bit that I hadnt logged into for some time...I was running around checking out stuff and while answering a persons question in general chat I drop the dreaded "F" bomb in a sentance; not even derogitorily mind you. Just the "yeah, it's over by the "F"ing hill" kind of bomb. To my surprise I triggered 2 people in zone who immediately began to trash me for my unsupporting rude behavior. PLEASE tell me this game will not place restrictions on language other than the obvious biggotry and such. I mean "F" already!!!
Mod Edit: Edited out vulgar language that is against our developer forum guidelines, please be mindful of this in the future.
Need to keep it PG as was stated elsewhere in this thread yes people can use filters, but we all should be responsible enough to realize that kids as young as eight yrs old manage to get on their parents' accounts here and there. Been gaming since 1995, and being that the expletive is TYPED...you have plenty of time to rein in the occasional F bomb. :) Which in the end is part of being a member of a good community.
Cana
Sevens said:Okay, going to try and pull this wreck back on track
The biggest problem here is that everyone assumes that "General chat" is an automatic given in the game, Why?
Why is general chat even needed? Honestly it is nothing more than a stage for the Bigots, racist, religious debaters (for or against) and shock jocks who think its cool to try and spout filth and get a rise out of the channel....General chat is nothing more than a breeding ground for trolls. Why have it? Everquest did just fine for a long time before any server wide channels were introduced. You have /zone (ooc or shout) /say /group /guild and /tells for private conversations, why is general needed? Now before you say "well just turn it off" understand that if its there others will expect you to use it, it WILL become the default LFG, It WILL become the defualt /auction, it WILL become the default (and pretty much only) used channel so "Just turning it off" isnt really an option. Dont give the trolls a garden to grow in, dont give the shock jocks a world stage to spew their filth and hate...Say no to ANY server wide general chats (newbie chats, class chats, etc etc etc).
Might make for a better community Sevens...I have to agree here.
Cana
Undesirable Behaviour
Use of the profanity filter is the first step. If some form of unwanted behaviour continues to happen in chat and is offensive then putting that person on /ignore should be the next step. After that if you feel it needs to be dealt with then it should be reported.
First and foremost the community needs to react to the issue in a common sense manner. Don't engage with the person, that only fuels it. If this is done then it wont take long for the undesirable element being silenced. It is up to us as a community and up to VR to then back the community to keep the place a desirable place to be. If VR don't investigate and react accordingly to bad behaviour then the only thing we can do use the /ignore feature or leave.
I think with Pantheon being subscription based (I assume) it should stop a lot of the negativity, after all that person has paid for the game and is subbing. With f2p there always seems to be a lot of crass behaviour so hopefully this wont really be a big problem.
Sometimes you just need to choose to not be offended. In this day and age it does seem that a lot of people get offended easily at the smallest of things.
Chat Channels
Onto another item that has been discussed in here, chat channels and their 'range'. In mmos today it seems to be the norm that there's a global channel that is server wide. I do hope that this is not implemented in Pantheon. What I would like to see is region/zone wide chat channels. This would also decrease the audience for those that like to troll and cause issues in chat. It also can keep the chat in those regions mostly relevant to those zones.
~~~ <()> ~~~
Valor and virtue ride with me, my blade defends the helpless,
my might upholds the weak, my words speak only truth,
my wrath undoes the wicked!
<~ Vaultarn Stormborn ~>
Vaultarn said:Undesirable Behaviour
Use of the profanity filter is the first step....
Agreed. Recently, in another game under development, the issue of how to handle User Created Content (UCC) has become rather important. Why?
Mostly because in modern games, UCC isn't just chat text in a zone-wide channel. That's easy to handle. You /ignore abusers and go about your adventure in blissful ignorance. Extra points if the /ignore affects all characters on the account.
As time and features have progressed, it's now things like: Pet names. Item names. Crafted item names. Titles of books. Contents of books. Housing. Placeable objects in the world. Dungeon layouts. and more.
So, this has been my personal recommendation on policy, and I hope it's one that VR adopts or uses:
All UCC must have client side filters. Full stop. No exceptions.
That way, players can do whatever they want, create whatever they want, say whatever they want, and if I find it offensive for any reason, I can just not see it. Permanently. Again, back to blissful ignorance, and on my merry way I go continuing to be a good customer. No CS involvement (ok, LESS CS involvement) and lots of freedom for players.
So, what does "all ucc must have client side filters" mean, implementation-wise? It means any time a player can type, produce, place, or otherwise create, adjust or modify anything in the game world, temporarily or persistently, there needs to be a few things..
A visibility filter (like /ignore) and a placeholder in the case of certain objects. That means, for example, if someone produces a book, and places it in their home, and their home is open to the public, then instead of "The Story Of How Jack Brutally F_____ Jill" as the title it says "A Book" or instead of a pet named "Deloris Cl______" I just see "(vjek's pet)". If you don't like the home example, replace home with auction house, or sales interface or trading window.
If someone has a house and a vendor, then load and show just the house and just the vendor, no other decorations. If the vendor name is customizable, then show "a vendor" instead of whatever terrible thing someone will inevitably put there.
This also addresses issues of scamming other players, whereby customized objects can be placed into sales interfaces or trading interfaces, and to the un-initiated, appear to be an item of great value, when in fact it is a worthless item. Sure, I get the whole " I am roleplaying a bastard con artist " but fraud is an unpleasant introduction to a new social experience. :)
Oh, and regarding /ignoring players, it has been suggested (and I agree) that if someone is on your ignore list ( in an entirely PvE context ), the only thing you see from them are combat animations if you're grouped with them, and walk/run movement. Nothing else. No emotes, no flavor animations, nothing. Their avatar will perform walk/run animations, idle animations and in-combat animations only.
While I think it's an interesting solution Vjek, I also feel that some things just shouldn't 'exist' at all (altho that Deloris pet made me giggle... :D). While on the one hand I feel young audiences can handle quite a bit more than that we give them credit for (and would probably roll their eyes over everyone trying to save their pure, innocent eyes and minds *coughs*), I do think as a company you have a certain responsibility to what your audience has access to. In that sense I think /ignore on the client side wouldn't be enough. Maybe I haven't fully grasped what you describe as it's a new concept to me.
/ignore in itself is a nice feature, I hope they'll implement it. I don't use it but I understand it can be quite useful for one's blood pressure :D.
CanadinaXegony said:I was one of those kids (started at 9) in Everquest. Never really had any issues. It actually improved my normal vocabulary far more than my range of curse words (how great is it to play a video game and have the name of some skill pop up on a vocabulary test).Chaoticus said:I just logged into a different game for a bit that I hadnt logged into for some time...I was running around checking out stuff and while answering a persons question in general chat I drop the dreaded "F" bomb in a sentance; not even derogitorily mind you. Just the "yeah, it's over by the "F"ing hill" kind of bomb. To my surprise I triggered 2 people in zone who immediately began to trash me for my unsupporting rude behavior. PLEASE tell me this game will not place restrictions on language other than the obvious biggotry and such. I mean "F" already!!!
Mod Edit: Edited out vulgar language that is against our developer forum guidelines, please be mindful of this in the future.
Need to keep it PG as was stated elsewhere in this thread yes people can use filters, but we all should be responsible enough to realize that kids as young as eight yrs old manage to get on their parents' accounts here and there. Been gaming since 1995, and being that the expletive is TYPED...you have plenty of time to rein in the occasional F bomb. :) Which in the end is part of being a member of a good community.
Cana
Editing myself on a forum post is easy, editing my typing when I'm trying to heal, pull, CC, or whatever I'm doing in the game, that's not so easy. Typing has become something that flows just as easily as speaking (sometimes easier!).
I can say right now that if the rules are such that making a mistake and letting a curse word slip here and there would result in punitive measures, then my interest in this game has gone out the window. It is that important of an issue for me that we don't have that level of rigid oversight. I'm not saying I support cursing, it's just think there's a line where it becomes absurd to punish people for slips of the tongue (or in this case fingers).
Again though, if this game's community ends up anything like the original Everquest I remember, this will all be a non issue.
A language filter option is a must at the very least. Sorry, but I have no desire to see someone dropping F bombs because they think it's cool. Doesn't do a thing for me. I've heard all the words, and used them at least once in my life, and if I never hear them or use them again, it'll be too soon. I try not to but no one's perfect, but yeah, I don't need to see it in a game. You want to chat your buddies up in group chat or tells or guild chat and cuss like drunken sailors on shore leave, go for it. If I see you doing it in chat repeatedly, I'll likely add you to the ignore list as an immature git who I really don't want anything to do with anyway. Excessive cussing is a sign of a very limited vocabulary, they say.
I think there is one major flaw in this whole thing: vulgarity != maturity. ANYBODY can weave the f-bomb 4 times per sentance. If you want to act grown up, respect and knowing your surroundings goes a long way.
An example:
My father and I are both combat vets. Yep, when we're hangin out workin in the garage or in the yard we have a serious potty mouth. However, my mother is old school (awe shucks at 65 she's just plain old lol) never not once have either of us cursed in front of her. Doing so would not be a sign of maturiy, but disrespect.
The problem with "simply turning on the language filter" is that there is no agreed updon consensus on what the list of curse words are. This list ends up so full of words that having the filter on ends up hindering text in a more general sense.
That's my take on this in the game world. My take on "vulgarity" in general is quite different:
I wold like to know who decided that "making love" is acceptable to say yet the f-bomb is not. They mean the exact same thing. Or manure is ok to say, even sell but somebody decided that the s-word is not ok to say.
Now if you're still reading you might say "hey, you just argued both sides of the discussion". Not really. The fact is society in general has decided certian words are just not acceptable. That's just how it is. However, personally I'd just love to know who/when the "list of dirty words" was invented. No, George Carling did not invent it, he just wrote it down lol.
Aarpoch said:I think there is one major flaw in this whole thing: vulgarity != maturity. ANYBODY can weave the f-bomb 4 times per sentance. If you want to act grown up, respect and knowing your surroundings goes a long way.
An example:
My father and I are both combat vets. Yep, when we're hangin out workin in the garage or in the yard we have a serious potty mouth. However, my mother is old school (awe shucks at 65 she's just plain old lol) never not once have either of us cursed in front of her. Doing so would not be a sign of maturiy, but disrespect.
This is how I've learned. Around friends and certain situations I can be rather vulgar and not always for the intent of being vulgar, sometimes I just want to express something without having to think and speak like an English major. But in most everyday life 'damn' is usually as bad as I get and find most people worth interacting with are the same, regardless of age. It's a matter of respect both for others and for how I portray myself. I'm very rarely offended by any language really, I mostly just end up unimpressed by excessive use of cursing, etc.
Dragonite said:Omg bad words on the internet no wai!
Omg a little consideration for others, and self control...no wai? I like to believe people have larger vocabularies than dropping the F bomb once a minute. I have a neighbour that does that all the time, ya can't mute him ya can't ignore him..so I have to leave the patio and go indoors? Why? I'm not afraid of F bombs...been around armed forces people all my life. Why I leave? It brings the once pleasant day down...I don't want to listen to him foaming at the mouth...same for gaming. I game to have fun. Need to pepper your conversation that way, do it in your guild chat, chat with friends, voice chat with friends. Not in general chat ..or yes I can filter you or put you on ignore. I just think it brings the whole atmosphere of the game down when people seem to have no self-control.
jerus said:CanadinaXegony said:I was one of those kids (started at 9) in Everquest. Never really had any issues. It actually improved my normal vocabulary far more than my range of curse words (how great is it to play a video game and have the name of some skill pop up on a vocabulary test).Chaoticus said:I just logged into a different game for a bit that I hadnt logged into for some time...I was running around checking out stuff and while answering a persons question in general chat I drop the dreaded "F" bomb in a sentance; not even derogitorily mind you. Just the "yeah, it's over by the "F"ing hill" kind of bomb. To my surprise I triggered 2 people in zone who immediately began to trash me for my unsupporting rude behavior. PLEASE tell me this game will not place restrictions on language other than the obvious biggotry and such. I mean "F" already!!!
Mod Edit: Edited out vulgar language that is against our developer forum guidelines, please be mindful of this in the future.
Need to keep it PG as was stated elsewhere in this thread yes people can use filters, but we all should be responsible enough to realize that kids as young as eight yrs old manage to get on their parents' accounts here and there. Been gaming since 1995, and being that the expletive is TYPED...you have plenty of time to rein in the occasional F bomb. :) Which in the end is part of being a member of a good community.
Cana
Editing myself on a forum post is easy, editing my typing when I'm trying to heal, pull, CC, or whatever I'm doing in the game, that's not so easy. Typing has become something that flows just as easily as speaking (sometimes easier!).
I can say right now that if the rules are such that making a mistake and letting a curse word slip here and there would result in punitive measures, then my interest in this game has gone out the window. It is that important of an issue for me that we don't have that level of rigid oversight. I'm not saying I support cursing, it's just think there's a line where it becomes absurd to punish people for slips of the tongue (or in this case fingers).
Again though, if this game's community ends up anything like the original Everquest I remember, this will all be a non issue.
So when you're healing, pulling, CC or whatever, wouldn't you want to use that very short time to type out something that conveys the message without taking more time than needed? Therefore an unneeded expletive would be taking up that extra time to get your message across...wouldn't it? :) My messages are short and sweet and get the job done, and so far expletives haven't been added. hehehe Macro messages help with that..standard message indicating what you're doing next or what mob you've mezzed, don't break mez! For instance. :)
Allow me to open Pandora's box. Guys, remember that in-game voice chat has been confirmed. Alright, continue. *grabs popcorn*
Syntro said:Allow me to open Pandora's box. Guys, remember that in-game voice chat has been confirmed. Alright, continue. *grabs popcorn*
Several MMO's already have this. It doesn't mean people use it (most don't for a variety of very good reasons) but it's not like they're going to permit hearing it without being grouped/raided. Talk about cacophany..
And of course, mute/ignore would be an expected feature set of any kind of voice related in-game interface.
vjek said:Syntro said:Allow me to open Pandora's box. Guys, remember that in-game voice chat has been confirmed. Alright, continue. *grabs popcorn*
Several MMO's already have this. It doesn't mean people use it (most don't for a variety of very good reasons) but it's not like they're going to permit hearing it without being grouped/raided. Talk about cacophany..
And of course, mute/ignore would be an expected feature set of any kind of voice related in-game interface.
If so hopefully most will use "push to talk" instead of leaving the mic on...I have memories of hearing someone's garbage truck backing up including the back up sound of beep beep beep, or someone's 12 year old kid singing and playing loud music in the channel as we're trying to do something in a group. Such a troublemaker Syntro lol. But that will come with time, pretty sure if someone is interrupting causing problems during a raid, it won't be tolerated. :)
CanadinaXegony said:If I had a calm enough head to properly assess the situation I probably wouldn't have botched that pull and be running for my life ;)jerus said:CanadinaXegony said:I was one of those kids (started at 9) in Everquest. Never really had any issues. It actually improved my normal vocabulary far more than my range of curse words (how great is it to play a video game and have the name of some skill pop up on a vocabulary test).Chaoticus said:I just logged into a different game for a bit that I hadnt logged into for some time...I was running around checking out stuff and while answering a persons question in general chat I drop the dreaded "F" bomb in a sentance; not even derogitorily mind you. Just the "yeah, it's over by the "F"ing hill" kind of bomb. To my surprise I triggered 2 people in zone who immediately began to trash me for my unsupporting rude behavior. PLEASE tell me this game will not place restrictions on language other than the obvious biggotry and such. I mean "F" already!!!
Mod Edit: Edited out vulgar language that is against our developer forum guidelines, please be mindful of this in the future.
Need to keep it PG as was stated elsewhere in this thread yes people can use filters, but we all should be responsible enough to realize that kids as young as eight yrs old manage to get on their parents' accounts here and there. Been gaming since 1995, and being that the expletive is TYPED...you have plenty of time to rein in the occasional F bomb. :) Which in the end is part of being a member of a good community.
Cana
Editing myself on a forum post is easy, editing my typing when I'm trying to heal, pull, CC, or whatever I'm doing in the game, that's not so easy. Typing has become something that flows just as easily as speaking (sometimes easier!).
I can say right now that if the rules are such that making a mistake and letting a curse word slip here and there would result in punitive measures, then my interest in this game has gone out the window. It is that important of an issue for me that we don't have that level of rigid oversight. I'm not saying I support cursing, it's just think there's a line where it becomes absurd to punish people for slips of the tongue (or in this case fingers).
Again though, if this game's community ends up anything like the original Everquest I remember, this will all be a non issue.
So when you're healing, pulling, CC or whatever, wouldn't you want to use that very short time to type out something that conveys the message without taking more time than needed? Therefore an unneeded expletive would be taking up that extra time to get your message across...wouldn't it? :) My messages are short and sweet and get the job done, and so far expletives haven't been added. hehehe Macro messages help with that..standard message indicating what you're doing next or what mob you've mezzed, don't break mez! For instance. :)
Anyways, there's a big difference between not condoning vulgarity and having overbearing moderation. That's all I ask, that we sit somewhere in the middle there.
And to the guy who talked about never speaking the way he does with his father infront of his mother. I'd say my grandma was the same way, thing is when I do slip (it happens) I get smacked or my lips pinched, not kicked out of the house. If I went on a rant it'd be different, but slip up, no.
Well that's it Jeru, most people do have an occasional slip up, we're human it happens. The ones I am referring to are those that seem to want to set out the day, as having all attention focussed on themselves, and by bringing the immersion down...with the CONSTANT cussing ...that accomplishes their goal. I saw a lot of trolling and behavior like that in certain games. Just hoping for a better community than what I've seen in recent games. :)
CanadinaXegony said:Well that's it Jeru, most people do have an occasional slip up, we're human it happens. The ones I am referring to are those that seem to want to set out the day, as having all attention focussed on themselves, and by bringing the immersion down...with the CONSTANT cussing ...that accomplishes their goal. I saw a lot of trolling and behavior like that in certain games. Just hoping for a better community than what I've seen in recent games. :)
I have found that it helps if you group/guild with like-minded people. I call it the Southpark rule. If someone is a huge fan of Southpark I'm probably going to disagree with them most of the time. I try to pay attention to the warning signs before I commit to a guild because once I do, I'm in for the long haul.
As far as the rest of the topic.. You cant censor everyone. You create an environment where people WANT to act mature and are expected by the community to act mature and the rest takes care of itself. This is especially true in the voice chat world.
jerus said:I'm not worried at all. I anticipate this being similar to the original EQ community. Where even if you did find someone who spoke a little too freely simply asking them politely to stop would get the job done. I don't think it will be a community like WoW or GW2.
*nod* I think our community is great. While we certianly don't agree on all points there is a feeling of...respect for one another. Now voice chat? Ya, that would have to be push to talk or folks would lean new words talking to me; especially when one of those roaming named spawn on our heads lol.
Age shouldn't be a limiting factor. I started EQ1 at 13 and nobody was the wiser minus a few guild members. Some people never grow up, others are forced to.
And by forced to i mean I played from launch to Luclin and my main was a ranger lol