I just logged into a different game for a bit that I hadnt logged into for some time...I was running around checking out stuff and while answering a persons question in general chat I drop the dreaded "F" bomb in a sentance; not even derogitorily mind you. Just the "yeah, it's over by the "F"ing hill" kind of bomb. To my surprise I triggered 2 people in zone who immediately began to trash me for my unsupporting rude behavior. PLEASE tell me this game will not place restrictions on language other than the obvious biggotry and such. I mean "F" already!!!
Mod Edit: Edited out vulgar language that is against our developer forum guidelines, please be mindful of this in the future.
Well tbh they can add a language filter and still have a mature audience, Vise Versa. BUUUT they still have to make it some what "family" oriented as sometimes people have their familes play with them and some times their little ones. I think there should be a optional Enable or disable button in the options that opts you out of curse words or allows you to see them. However you will find trolls and people using loopholes in the language filters in every game and you cannot stop them. Sure VR can mitigate it but it might take resources from somewhere else.
We will not be an 18/21+ (Mature) game, no MMORPG would commit to that if they wanted to succeed in today's market.
MMORPGs cater to a wide range of people from all walks of life, swearing can be offensive to families, younger members, religious people and your normal everyday average Joe etc. so a filter is usually put in place and set to "on" as default, leaving it in the hands of the players to choose if they view swearing or not.
It is the same with anything in life but your use of the "F" word so casually will always find a few people to upset and you should know this if this is how you usually speak to people around you. I am not sure why you were surprised, it may not have been derogatory but it was thrown around quite casually and wasn't really warranted. Using the F word in the context that you did sends a message to the receiving person(s) that you are angry or potentially hostile which is usually a sign to be cautious or ignore you completely, it isn't a very community friendly way to speak.
Most people swear in private, PMs, Guild Chat or Group chat when surrounded by like-minded people who are ok with that language, not in public where they force it onto others who do not like that language, so you will always have people react to it.
We do not tolerate bad language on our forums for the same reasons, so please respect that and be mindful of our guidelines found here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1595/pantheon-developer-forum-guidelines
Your post has been edited to comply with our guidelines.
I am torn on the subject. IRL, I curse like a sailor. Maybe worse. I am known for not having a filter, that said, it's out of habit and comfortability. I am mature, secure, consider myself intelligent, and I am not afraid to speak my mind. The F word alone is a very versatile word :).
That said, online and in writing, it is different for me depending on the venue. On Liveleak, I consider my sole existence to be that of a griefer to the other commentors, so I am exceptionally foul. In an FPS, I also will generally curse at will, usually like in the OP example. However, it depends on the game. Titanfall/CSS, sure. However, I don't typically curse in MMO's or even guild chat (at least, not in public and not unless we are talking raid politics), it just doesn't tend to fit with the situation, which is much more of a daily living role as opposed to a "WE ARE IN WAR! COME HERE! FIGHT THERE! DIE WITH ^&*(#$ HONOR YOU COWARD!" Even in combat situations, it is hardly ever as fast paced as an FPS environment. At least, not fast/stressful enough to have to simplify to the basics.
Generally, I am more bothered with people talking about RL religion, politics, events, etc. than I am with seeing people curse, largely because I am an adult and it is not an immersion breaker to me to see curse words. I live in an adult world and many of the adults I meet, even in suits, curse on a daily basis. Even the god fearing ones.
So with that said, I am torn because I don't necessarily find it an immersion breaker. That said, I do find it annoying if people are cursing just to curse. There is an inherent difference between using the emphasis of a curse to portray a point and just splurting out toxic rot from ones orifices.
Edit: Words and such...
As with any Software provider intending to access the marketplace *without* putting 18+ on the box, VR will have to have a policy of 'no swearing' and 'no offensive comments'. Having said this, there is no need for a draconian 'this cannot be switched off' profanity filter. This is a subscription game and thus there will be (99% chance I assume) of a Credit Card requirement. On this bases the Adult who purchases the subscription should be allowed to decide to turn off the filter if they so wish.
NB: AOL was the UKs primary ISP in 2000. Due to a rigid profanity filter the entire town of 'Scunthorpe' was blocked for nearly 2 weeks. Can you see why?
While I do not think swearing should be ubiquitous, or even commonplace, I really do not think a singular 'F-Bomb' (as you american's hilariously put it) should merit account suspension, or even grounds for 'investigation' unless this has been petitioned by a player on the basis that, lets say, the volume directed at them rises to the level of harrassment.
There is a thread about 'Character Names' that covers much of this, and I would certainly draw your attention to that - as much of it is amusing :)
BELOW is opinion, your truth may vary :)
My biggest worry (and I speak as an educator) will be the attempt by the infantilised 16-20 year olds of todays twitter generation to impose their skewed standards in any new media they avail themselves of. Hopefully the more mature audience of Pantheon will be able to rise above the temporary flood of toxic waste that is likely to be evident in chat should any part of that demographic become aware of of the game and attempt to 'participate'.
TLDR: To the DEVS: There is a segment of the latest generation you don't need, and should actively avoid I would suggest, to seek to attract. I would rather hear a docker swearing in OOC than have to suffer their 'death of a thousand patently misinformed opinions'. We only have *so* many brain cells to burn off and I am running low.
I work construction and as most of you probably know we swear/curse alot. However if I'm typing out something I don't see any reason to curse unless its in a tell/private chat over something that I am frustrated with and even then it probably isn't proper to do so. Being respectfull to others is more important to me i guess :)
One of the jobs I held at "another gaming company" was the job where for the lack of a better title, I was the Censor. I spent a LOT of time compiling a list of words that were derogatory, not only in mainstream media - but in places and situations where most people would never even consider. I HATED doing this job, but I did it with gusto. I had a list of almost 15000 words. FIFTEEN THOUSAND. And for some of the words, it really makes you scratch your head.
Things like the word "apple". We all know what an applie is right? Round, red fruit - amazingly delicious? I love apples. And apple pie. There are no less than TWO jugs of apple juice in my fridge right now. Imagine my suprise when I discovered that in many cases THIS is a derogatory term. Please. Let me explain. You see the term "apple" can be used to describe some who is Native American (my grandfather was born on the Muscalaro Indian Reservation in NM) but "acts" white. Red on the outside but white on the inside. It is a very similar term to "Oreo", which is someone who is black, but "acts" white. Honestly, I am still trying to figure out what "acting" white is, but that isn't the point. "Apple" can be misused as a naughty term.
It goes on. There are places where using a term like this causes genuine concern. Some people are overly affected by these terms. Did you read a few months back where severe distress was caused on a college campus because someone wrote the word "Trump" on the sidewalk in chalk? It wasn't fake. Some of those folks did in fact suffer from severe stress. It isn't something to mock - it's just a fact of life. So we DO have to realize that some terms we use that WE consider normal and no cause for concern, we also have a responsibility to not HARM another persons GAMING experience by not watching what we say. Which leads to a conclusion that seems readily apparent: Words aren't bad - it's how we use them.
We came up with a couple of interesting solutions. The first was to create a parsar to automatically remove words on my much-cut-back list (I mean really, we couldn't remove the word "apple" because in some of our online games we actually sold apples to customers). We then chose to replace those words with typical text characters like *&^%$# etc. We could have gone another way. We could have automatically changed those words for replacement words. If someone entered the word FUetc. we could have automatically replaced it with FRACK. We could have simply removed words and continued the sentence as if nothing happened. We could have engineered an auto-respons with a Terms of Service replies and even automatic punishment. We chose not too.
One of my own suggestions was to create a client side censor application that would allow a person to create their own censored word list and would parse the text from the clients end etc. In fact, I had wanted to create a user-friendly client side parser in addition to using the server side parsar. Doing it this way would remove the words that we (the DevTeam) determined to be bad and give the client the option of adding words that we had determined NOT to be bad. For instance let's say the DevTeam determined the word Pooh wasn't bad. But somewhere out there someone's mom doesn't want her 10 year old playing in a game where someone can call her child a pooh head. She uses her tool to add the word "pooh" to her client-side parsar and even enters the replacement for the word "pooh" so that the replacement is displayed whan someone uses the dreaded "pooh" word. The next time someone calls her child a pooh head, what is displayed is "clown" head, or whatever it is she entered.
But even WITH the addition of tools etc. the REAL issue is training your CS staff to recognize "intent". You see, there are a lot of words out there with duo meanings. As the Senior GM on an MMO a while ago I was addressed with a tricky situation. Someone was in-game having a discussion with a friend and used the word "rape". People complained and the GM that responded "actioned" the customer, who was totally taken aback for the use of the word. I reviewed the situation. I pulled up the entire conversation he was holding with his friend. He did indeed use the word. The problem is that he was a grape grower in Northern California - wine country. The word "rape" can also be used to reference the remains of grape processing once all the juice is collected. All the seeds, grape skins, etc. leftover. Reviewing his discussion revealed what his INTENT was. It was nothing punishable IMHO, and he was reinstated with apologies etc. It was suggested to him to try to use another word as there are a lot of very sensative people in the world in regards to that word.
BTW - did you notice how I said I pulled up the conversation? In most of the game titles I worked on, the company recorded every word used by every customer. Regardless of where the word was used. So even in private tells/whispers - it was recorded. It could be - and has been - used to convict you in a crime if you commit a crime by texting someone.
I probably most identify with Evoras. Im less concerned about people cursing and more so with thier political or religious skew. I have my own as well, but I prefer a "leave that crap in the real world approach" when playing in an MMO. Among friends it can be different. But no one wants to hear me preach my beliefs and political opinions, so please dont be preaching to me.
A toggle fitler is all is needed so certain people can shield themselves from it if they are truly offended. If someone is swearing at someone else then that is definitely able to be taken as either rude or maybe agressive behaviour which isnt great. If your swearing in order to emphasise a point then have at it. The F bomb is a brilliant word in our language and i find it strange that people are offended just hearing swear words being used regardless of the context. I can understand if someone is offended as a swear word is tossed at them in a way intented to belittle, threaten or make them feel uncomfortable. Someone mentioned that swaering in its self is not mature, i disagree completely. Someone who swears for the sake of swearing and is intentionally trying to get a rise out of the listeners / audience, well yeah thats not very mature.
All this said it is an excellent point that it takes more purpose to type somthing rather than let it slip or blurt out in verbal conversation so there would be more scrutiny placed on repeated swearing in text based conversations i think and i completely take that point as very valid.
I sometimes let my mouth run repeatedly, but it is done in a way that is clear to all around me that it is either in jest or it is to make clear the level of frustration that i am feeling, where as it is hard to emote these things in text before someone has become offended.
I admittly didn't read this whole thread but what about just a server that is aimed towards say 25+ that isn't overly modded?
Something on the kids, even tho this thread isn't really about it.. As much as people may not want to deal with the kiddies, if this game has that issue, it'll mean that it's successful. To reach the younger generation would be a great accomplishment for this game. Also remember that EQ had a way of filtering people out through gameplay itself and community.
Well, I do not see why we would need dedicated server for people who consider themself mature. Plus, the age doesn't mean much. Also, since this game is about community and social, I assum that when I'll play I'll meet tons of differents people, with tons of differents beliefs and behaviors. This is propably why I'd like to play MMO anyways - meet people and talk to them.
Also, people will do just like in real life and will create inner circle of people that share more or less the same beliefs and behavior. So, you'll get less exposed to things you do not like.
Thats leave us the genral chat, which imo, should be treated like public spaces. So there should be clear rules on how to behaves when you talk in public.
Convo said:I admittly didn't read this whole thread but what about just a server that is aimed towards say 25+ that isn't overly modded?
Something on the kids, even tho this thread isn't really about it.. As much as people may not want to deal with the kiddies, if this game has that issue, it'll mean that it's successful. To reach the younger generation would be a great accomplishment for this game. Also remember that EQ had a way of filtering people out through gameplay itself and community.
I think the default profanity filter is still the best for this man, you can toggle it off (on by default) and swear like a sailor to friends and whoever you like and other just see %$^&#&^ etc. they have the option to ignore that language, block it via the filter or block you entirely if they like while still allowing everyone to play together ;)
philo said:Kilsin said:We will not be an 18/21+ (Mature) game, no MMORPG would commit to that if they wanted to succeed in today's market.
My dreams of a 30 year old minimum age required server are crushed!
Kilsin said:Convo said:I admittly didn't read this whole thread but what about just a server that is aimed towards say 25+ that isn't overly modded?
Something on the kids, even tho this thread isn't really about it.. As much as people may not want to deal with the kiddies, if this game has that issue, it'll mean that it's successful. To reach the younger generation would be a great accomplishment for this game. Also remember that EQ had a way of filtering people out through gameplay itself and community.
I think the default profanity filter is still the best for this man, you can toggle it off (on by default) and swear like a sailor to friends and whoever you like and other just see %$^&#&^ etc. they have the option to ignore that language, block it via the filter or block you entirely if they like while still allowing everyone to play together ;)
philo said:Kilsin said:We will not be an 18/21+ (Mature) game, no MMORPG would commit to that if they wanted to succeed in today's market.
My dreams of a 30 year old minimum age required server are crushed!
We won't rule out different ruleset servers but I doubt we will age limit them as per my answer to Convo above, just block them if they annoy you :)
Agreed. No reason why this game couldn't be or shouldn't be Teen, especially with a big section of our target audience being younger gamers who haven't experienced true social, teamwork, community, shared experience gameplay in a persistent environment (it's pretty much only in session based games, if it's there at all).
Filters and such for language have worked for some time, as well as other commonly used stuff.
An alternate ruleset server just for older people? Hrm. That just rubs me the wrong way for some reason. Pretty hard to enforce anyway.
I guess, ultimately, I think back at myself, my life, being exposed to Fantasy novels at age 8 or 9... then AD&D with my friends around 11 or 12.... Then Ultima 2 in middle school, which totally changed my life -- I knew what I wanted to do -- to make computer RPGs. So then I think about an alternate me, a teen ager or even younger., but in 2018, not the early 80s.... and him not being able to easily play Pantheon? That seems *wrong*. Who knows -- Pantheon might open his mind to ideas and ways to share these fantasy worlds with others that are completely new... something I'll never think of, nor my peers, nor most of you. What you're exposed to at that early stage of learning, where you brain is still forming to a degree, and you're truly able to think outside of the box, it doesn't just define who we become but it also could define the future of entertainment for everyone.
Or he could just play as a kid and have a good time -- who knows -- but I like to think of Pantheon as a game people in their early teens will be able to enjoy.
I agree with Brads policy on teens. Altho most of my experieces with them in mmo's were bad.. immature behaviour etc.. there were some that were actually very good players both in skill and maturity.
In WoW when our guild was #1 on the server our main tank that had been along with us 2years and he was a 15 years old; meaning he was 13 when we started! When looked back at what we he done from the age of 13.. I nominated him as the best player on our server. So VR definitely shouldn't stop them playing the game.
In the End it comes down to us as a community and the more "life experienced" people among us to not encourage any kind of "immature" or "inappropriate" behaviour no matter who from. But we all have been "teens" ourselfs and some, not all where just as bad back then some where "Mature" all the way and still some of us older folk behave the same as when they were 13, 14,16, etc. But not all "TEENS" are like that its life experience and upbringing or how you have been raised as a child, teen and our societys the influence the way we interact.
There is no need to restrict anything imo and i have to say that the generation of the 2000`s will and already is more mature than we all were. I have seen a jump between generations and its a pattern i seem to be able to follow all the way back.
Its like trends they come and go, come back again and wonder off again. Its like teaching a dog to sit one day they will understand what you mean and so it is with the behaviour. One day we will all know how to act around each other and what is nice and not so nice etc.
And like kilsin said If push comes to shove "Ignore" or "Filter" is there to aid you if needed. Sometimes i think some things can get blown way to much out of proportion and gets taking way to seriously. He used the "F" word he is bad or immature ? Nah i don`t care about stuff like that as long as it aint excessive and used the right way ;) Lol
I think a filter does the trick. I mean I curse like sailor to my firends when I talk, but out in public (and in front of my mother) I don't curse at all becuase some people are offended by it. Each to thier own. If a person is offended by cursing then just leave the filter on. No big deal IMHO.
As most seem to agree, a simple toggleable profanity filter is all that is needed here. As Kilsin already pointed out, cursing in public/broadcast chat comes across quite childish. While I curse like a drunken sailor amongst my friends/associates, I tend to use more civil language in public settings.