They've already confirmed that some solo content will be available, but its important that it still be hard to encourage cooperative play. The problem with soloing in the past is that it was almost always the most efficient way to level for classes capable of doing it. This should NOT be the case in Pantheon. Not only should you gain experience faster and more easily with a group, but without the synergy between classes, soloing should be risky and time consuming. That makes soloing beneficial for players that don't have the time to group, yet ineffective for those who do.
I think its also important that players need the right equipment to solo effectively, and that equipment should come largely from group content. The player that decides to only solo should eventually hit a brick wall where they have to decide to either group up or, the less time-efficient alternative, grind cash to buy the equipment necessary to continue soloing.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1546/solo-play/view/post_id/23130
@Dull Not sure I'm keen on people soloing like that. "If you don't have the time to play the game, play another game". Trying to cater to all is how we got here in the first place.. (diluted classes, easy content etc). I just think it's silly when there are plenty; if not nearly all of the other mmo's out there are for solo. Why approach this game like that? There's no point..
I joined here for the social and group aspects.. If people are allowed to solo like that; what's the point of the game? Most of the other mmos focus on leveling = a solo thing and end game/raids = a group thing anyway. - I thought this game was different? Unless they make the exp rate for soloing a virtual stand still.. people will just solo to max level.. then what will be the point for either side?
If it's a stand still - solo-able content becomes reduntant. (aka becomes pointless for them.. and whining will ensue.)
If it's not - group-able content becomes reduntant (minus gear/raids). <-- and how is this any different to other mmo's?
It's a dangerous balancing act to walk.
@Nimryl - Dullahan is describing how things worked in Everquest. You could solo, but unless you were one of a small number of classes it pretty much sucked to do so. It was incredibly slow and any loot rewards were pretty inconsequential. No one in their right mind would have said EQ was a solo game with only group/raid content in the end-game. That simply was not even remotely true. And I personally agree that the level of solo play in original EQ is about where Pantheon should aim.
There are many reasons to allow a person to be able to solo at any level they happen to be at. There are many ways in which to make that a far less fruitful option.
Feyshtey said:The developers have commented about the fact that many of the fans of MMO's from 15 years ago have aged, and are in exactly the position your describe. They don't have as much time, they can't play like they once did, and I think most of us would say that we flatly refuse to even try. Our priorities are different. They are concieous of this, and I get they impression that they are considerate of it.
However, so many of the things that made Everquest as compelling as it was preclude things that would "fix" the time concerns some may have. Instant group finders, fast combat, ease of travel or even ease of traversing dungeons to reach conent, contested content, etc. These all consume time. Finding a group, traveling to an area, fighting in to a named camp; these all consume time. It might take an hour to get thru those steps befoer you realy get started on an xp/loot camp. While I will see those kinds of camps less than I might have at points in my past, but when I can that experience will be as rich as I expect it to be rather than watered down by the instant gratification tools so prevalent in so many other games these days.
I am an EQ vet with exactly the same time constraints that you mention. Back in the day, I had the time to spend finding a group, getting to camp, and staying in the group for hours. Today, I don't have that kind of available time on a regular basis. Yet, I do not want to see any instant gratification tools despite how my situation has changed. When I do have time, and I will on occasion, I want the experience to be rich, just as it should be.
Original EQ/Vanguard were skill based games. 1-3 hours a day were more than enough to do well if you were actually skilled and applied yourself well.
I think the comparison to modern MMO's like AA and BDO which are 100% grind2win and pay2win, where skill has no function is not an accurate measure. These current games are all designed to make you spend countless hours out-grinding everyone else to increase your gear score simply by spending gold and pulling the RNG lever. No skill is required to acquire better gear, just endless amounts of time doing mind-numbing meaningless tasks, or a credit card swipe.
zewtastic said:Original EQ/Vanguard were skill based games. 1-3 hours a day were more than enough to do well if you were actually skilled and applied yourself well.
I think the comparison to modern MMO's like AA and BDO which are 100% grind2win and pay2win, where skill has no function is not an accurate measure. These current games are all designed to make you spend countless hours out-grinding everyone else to increase your gear score simply by spending gold and pulling the RNG lever. No skill is required to acquire better gear, just endless amounts of time doing mind-numbing meaningless tasks, or a credit card swipe.
That's a great distinction too, that I don't think many have really addressed. To me this ties in largely to what Brad has said about emergant behavior, and how they embrace the players finding ways to do things that the developers never considered.
Nimryl said:@Dull Not sure I'm keen on people soloing like that. "If you don't have the time to play the game, play another game". Trying to cater to all is how we got here in the first place.. (diluted classes, easy content etc). I just think it's silly when there are plenty; if not nearly all of the other mmo's out there are for solo. Why approach this game like that? There's no point..
I joined here for the social and group aspects.. If people are allowed to solo like that; what's the point of the game? Most of the other mmos focus on leveling = a solo thing and end game/raids = a group thing anyway. - I thought this game was different? Unless they make the exp rate for soloing a virtual stand still.. people will just solo to max level.. then what will be the point for either side?
If it's a stand still - solo-able content becomes reduntant. (aka becomes pointless for them.. and whining will ensue.)
If it's not - group-able content becomes reduntant (minus gear/raids). <-- and how is this any different to other mmo's?
It's a dangerous balancing act to walk.
I'm not exactly keen on it either, but they've already said there will be soloing so I'm describing the best case scenario in my mind: one where soloing is hard, heavily gear dependent and provides significantly less progress than grouping.
Honestly I think soloing in EQ was too effective. No group could keep up with a caster quad kiting or charming. This was proven true red99 when several of us took off work at the launch of Kunark. I was still only the second person to hit 60 on my rogue when a druid who played less than me was able to pass me up quadding. It shouldn't be that way. Not even close.
I am in the same boat... I would love nothing more than to be retired and pump a LOT of time into a great MMO like Pantheon. Reality is, I have progressed in my job to the point where we are doing quite well but it is also eating all of my time with travel included. I game part time now when I can, but it is no where near like it was 16 years ago. So it is bitter sweet, wanting to play a LOT, but also liking a really good life style. I just hope I have the discipline to log out at a certain time on week nights so lack of sleep does not effect work!!
/torn
zewtastic said:Original EQ/Vanguard were skill based games. 1-3 hours a day were more than enough to do well if you were actually skilled and applied yourself well.
I think the comparison to modern MMO's like AA and BDO which are 100% grind2win and pay2win, where skill has no function is not an accurate measure. These current games are all designed to make you spend countless hours out-grinding everyone else to increase your gear score simply by spending gold and pulling the RNG lever. No skill is required to acquire better gear, just endless amounts of time doing mind-numbing meaningless tasks, or a credit card swipe.
Aside from the p2w bit, I have no problem with grinding. Grinding is not the problem - its the activity and level of redundancy that is the problem. BDO's combat is the worst I've ever experienced in an MMO and it made the grind unbearable to me. People spent hundreds if not thousands of hours in BDO farming the same jewelry off the same mobs over and over to upgrade them... The content was totally cheesy, the rewards bland and the mobs completely predictable. This made progression feel unsatisfying, particularly because your gear was only used to pvp and not also to overcome better/harder pve content. It was a totally broken design top to bottom.
@Pyye
I am in a similar scenario and I really think this community will "get it" and not be overly pi**ed off that you have real life obligations. I also think it goes both ways though and you (the player) should be respectful to other group members as well and say up front, "Hey guys, would love to join but only have an hour." That way even if you still feel that urge to stay, you don't have to feel overly guilty on leaving as you gave the group fair warning about your play time in case they would be opposed prior to joining.
And, if I ultimately grouped with people that were rude about my real life obligations after I was up front, then, its simple for me - they will end up falling on the negative rep side and I'll know to avoid them in the future.
I knew many people who had very limited playtimes and still managed to make see all content (eventually) that the game had available. Their key was to find those as many people as possible who also had limited play times, made friends with them and together they would all use a common calendar on a forum to post when they could play. It gave them a huge advantage in knowing that by working together they overcame their limitations.
Taledar said:I work 68 hours a week and will be in the same position, but I hope that it takes SO much time and many hours to do anything. It makes stuff actually worth it and the reason most of us want to play this game.
Making something time-consuming just for it to be time-consuming does not make things "worth it". That's a very dangerous mindset for any developer to have when considering content.
zewtastic said:Original EQ/Vanguard were skill based games. 1-3 hours a day were more than enough to do well if you were actually skilled and applied yourself well.
I think the comparison to modern MMO's like AA and BDO which are 100% grind2win and pay2win, where skill has no function is not an accurate measure. These current games are all designed to make you spend countless hours out-grinding everyone else to increase your gear score simply by spending gold and pulling the RNG lever. No skill is required to acquire better gear, just endless amounts of time doing mind-numbing meaningless tasks, or a credit card swipe.
You must've forgotten the PoTa grind and the isle in VG.....
Honestly if they make the content like EQ then heh the soloing will solve itself. There will be mobs that players can solo and mobs that can't be solo'd. If players know how to handle their class well enough and can "beat the system" then heh more power to them. Maybe folks will optimize their group setup as much as the soloer optimizes his playstyle. I can't imagine VR making concessions for the "power-soloer" now would they ;)
I've recently started tinkering around in P99 again (probably my 3rd or 4th go).
I typically only spend 1-2 hours in game, and therefore, seldom try to find a PUG. So I either solo, or join up with a friend who occasionally logs on and plays as well. It is a very slow road with such little time, but we both enjoy it very much. Even doing this same content for the umpteenth time in 15+ years, we enjoy it.
And while it is still very slow progression compared to newer games out there, it is much faster than my original experience back in 99-2000. Knowing where to go, what to kill how to play to maximize risk vs reward speeds up the game alot, even then it's a slow road.
And I am fine with that.
One thing I have noticed that keeps me loggin on is that "next milestone" The next set of spells, the increase in power with each level, the progression to move on to the next region to take on new mobs. THAT excitement is still not gone.
While those traits existed in games like WoW, they were so easily obtained that it became less exciting, especially when you moved on to an alt. Leveling an alt in WoW was mind numbing and frustrating, while I have leveled a couple dozen alts in EQ over 15 years to level 30+ and almost always enjoyed the process on each one (the early 1-10 levels can be boring due to lack of character strength and abilities).
All this said, I know when Pantheon comes out those 1-2 hour session will be 2-3 easily. It's not that I can't give current games more time, but that time has to come from somewhere( in this case cut into my 6 hours of sleep a night :) ), and currently nothing out there is worth the change in my schedule.
@ Fulton
My family recently voted to play WoW again, mostly because my younger son wont play anything else with his mom and I. It sucks for all the reasons you elude to. I literally log in, stare at the screen for about 15 minutes thinking about all the things I can go do, and eventually just log out because none of it seems worth it. It's easy as hell. I can get a level in no time. I can get some gear in 30 minutes, tops. I can get cash easily by storming a lower level instance a couple of times in 30 minutes. Nothing presents a challenge.
Conversely I log into P99 (alone...) and I struggle to decide which of the several things I really want to do will be the one I pursue in that session. Will it be to grind out the last bub of level 53? The 54 spells sure would be nice. Will it be to try to get a couple of skilliups in Alchemy? I'm so close to some sweet pots. Will it be to work on faction a little so that I clear the path to the epic? Certainly worthwhile.
And the beauty is that even if I log in every day for 1-2 hours for the next 3 months, I'll still have a long list of things I feel compelled to tackle. With WoW, if I were to play 1-2 hours every day for the next 3 months, I'd be cap level, have a full set of PvP gear, and a full set of heroic dungeon gear, have another 200 achievements completed, and be bored to tears. [edit] And likely have done so on multiple characters.
I just want to emphasize that there is a big difference between allowing players to solo wandering over-world mobs, than soloing dungeons and bosses.
I can't imagine even the most hardcore players saying soloing random over-world trash mobs that drop nothing of value and give little XP, but give you something to do, should not be available as a time killer.
Also keep in mind that if the game allows twinking/alts then soloing may be much easier the second go around becuase you have much better gear than the content was designed for.
I guess my vision of "challenge" may differ but I stopped logging into P99 some time ago because I mean it simply wasn't challenging as it was more of just time sinking. Now this could be my bias of being more of a raid-orientated player but if I wanted to camp any items for twinks or just for money, getting it wasn't necessarily the problem, it was just if I had a few hours to burn.
There were a lot of things that made EQ really suck me in. The first and foremost were the environments and then the people. Having unique classes and races helped greatly. Being able to solo was important, but it was far more dangerous and that was okay as long as I had a class that was able to get out of trouble somehow, via SoW, Fear, Intimidation, Root, Blindness, FD or siccing a pet on your pursuer.
The time sink of "puttering around" in EQ was always less of a problem than the time requirements of obtaining gear through adventuring. 20 - 40 hours spent at a camp over 20 - 30 gaming sessions? Who would like such a thing? Not I. Not any more. I guess it really is a matter of how much work you are willing to put into a game, but also consider how much of that is done from developer fear of someone mowing through content and finding themselves bored. Lots of Korean MMOs have this problem. Most recently, I went through Blade & Soul to level 50 and found I didn't even want to do the Hongmoon levels because I had done pretty much everything solo and had tons of outfits and the best upgraded gear I could manage, but no friends. I don't like long camps for little reward, but the other end is not pretty, either. There must be a good balance in there.
There is a reason I became an altoholic. EQ drove me to it. I despised waiting for groups to lose one person and then *maybe* they would fit my class in. So I rolled a necro. Pow. Just like that, I could solo content that my monk and my shaman couldn't touch without considerable downtime or kiting for miles. Then I found out how to do it with a wizzy and then a cleric, a bard, a deathknight, a paladin, a rogue. Hahaha... No, not with a rogue. Rogues got eaten for breakfast without a serious twinking. I never did try an enchanter, mage, beastlord or warrior. Not enough character slots or interest.
I would like to add that the most successful expansions in every MMORPG I've played have had new races and/or new classes in their own new starting areas. These fresh starts allow the seasoned pros to mingle with the newbies. For these new players, having the equivalent of Bear Grylls with you is better than any guide book. I know that talking about starting areas and new races/classes is a little bit of a tangent, but it feeds the play time topic by marrying the low level experience to those who have a wish to solo or have little time and/or patience for time-expensive leveling past the introductory content.
It was pointed out before on other threads on this topic, but the thought of designing content specifically to be soloed just isn't done, and won't be. Nobody designs content like that. What content there is that turns out to be soloable by one class or another comes from the players applying the spells and abilities of their class to the situation. Do you think Giants in Rathe Mountains were designed by someone thinking "this will be great for the druid to solo", or the Wyverns/Drakes in Cobalt Scar by wizards? Or necros pretty much against anything anywhere? No.
Wait and see what your class is given then go figure out where you can apply it and if you can't figure out how to solo with your chosen class (even though others manage) then pick another class that people have demonstrated can solo.
Vandraad said:It was pointed out before on other threads on this topic, but the thought of designing content specifically to be soloed just isn't done, and won't be. Nobody designs content like that. What content there is that turns out to be soloable by one class or another comes from the players applying the spells and abilities of their class to the situation. Do you think Giants in Rathe Mountains were designed by someone thinking "this will be great for the druid to solo", or the Wyverns/Drakes in Cobalt Scar by wizards? Or necros pretty much against anything anywhere? No.
Wait and see what your class is given then go figure out where you can apply it and if you can't figure out how to solo with your chosen class (even though others manage) then pick another class that people have demonstrated can solo.
I wouldn't say that much as developers dont think/expect/fear that such content would be solo'd. Depending on how close the class/content devs work, no doubt in my mind the thought came up of "what if x/y/z could solo this". Now of course its up to the players to make it happen, but I would definately hope developers see content fullout to avoid...lets say "creative use of mechanics" :p
Raive said:I wouldn't say that much as developers dont think/expect/fear that such content would be solo'd. Depending on how close the class/content devs work, no doubt in my mind the thought came up of "what if x/y/z could solo this". Now of course its up to the players to make it happen, but I would definately hope developers see content fullout to avoid...lets say "creative use of mechanics" :p
Brad and the devs have said that they are fully in support of creative use of mechanics, terming it "emergant behavior". Not only is it ok, it's encouraged. Unless it presents a substantial game balance issue they want for it to be allowed, just as they decided to allow kiting in EQ.
Feyshtey said:Raive said:I wouldn't say that much as developers dont think/expect/fear that such content would be solo'd. Depending on how close the class/content devs work, no doubt in my mind the thought came up of "what if x/y/z could solo this". Now of course its up to the players to make it happen, but I would definately hope developers see content fullout to avoid...lets say "creative use of mechanics" :p
Brad and the devs have said that they are fully in support of creative use of mechanics, terming it "emergant behavior". Not only is it ok, it's encouraged. Unless it presents a substantial game balance issue they want for it to be allowed, just as they decided to allow kiting in EQ.
The "creative use of mechanics" was more of an inside joke for those who played RIFT as of recent. By creative use of mechanics I meant like bugging out mobs, stuck in geometry, aka unintended behavior. Thats what I meant about devs seeing content full-round.
Raive said:Feyshtey said:Raive said:I wouldn't say that much as developers dont think/expect/fear that such content would be solo'd. Depending on how close the class/content devs work, no doubt in my mind the thought came up of "what if x/y/z could solo this". Now of course its up to the players to make it happen, but I would definately hope developers see content fullout to avoid...lets say "creative use of mechanics" :p
Brad and the devs have said that they are fully in support of creative use of mechanics, terming it "emergant behavior". Not only is it ok, it's encouraged. Unless it presents a substantial game balance issue they want for it to be allowed, just as they decided to allow kiting in EQ.
The "creative use of mechanics" was more of an inside joke for those who played RIFT as of recent. By creative use of mechanics I meant like bugging out mobs, stuck in geometry, aka unintended behavior. Thats what I meant about devs seeing content full-round.
Fair enough :) No exploits.
But it's also fair to reiterate that kiting was unintended behavior that become an embraced tactic and incorporated in later development considerations. That's why some mobs started summoning but many others did not.
And kiting wasnt the only example. Other examples would be:
Root Rotting
Feign Splitting
Pet Pulling
You could also argue that things like tap healing from Holgresh Elder Beads were tacitly approved. Even though the item no longer dropped after the tactic was employed, the pre-nerf item was not removed from gameplay.