I couldn't find a thread on this so excuse me if it exists. I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about how Pantheon will make it viable for people to enjoy the game if they don't have a lot of time to play?
These days my windows of play time span about 1-3 hours. I'm sure I'm not alone here. Work, school, family, they all take a bite out of my day. When I was in high school playing classic EQ it seemed like 3 hours was the minimum amount of time needed to get into a group and have some fun in a lot of situations. Had to find a group, in some cases get a port, run to the area, possibly have the group clear the way so you could get to the camp. A lot of times that took an hour by itself. I know that Pantheon will implement LFG tools but I wonder what else could be done without ruining the game? It would be great to be able to enjoy the meat of the game with only an hour and change of play time. Anyone know anything or have ideas?
The developers have commented about the fact that many of the fans of MMO's from 15 years ago have aged, and are in exactly the position your describe. They don't have as much time, they can't play like they once did, and I think most of us would say that we flatly refuse to even try. Our priorities are different. They are concieous of this, and I get they impression that they are considerate of it.
However, so many of the things that made Everquest as compelling as it was preclude things that would "fix" the time concerns some may have. Instant group finders, fast combat, ease of travel or even ease of traversing dungeons to reach conent, contested content, etc. These all consume time. Finding a group, traveling to an area, fighting in to a named camp; these all consume time. It might take an hour to get thru those steps befoer you realy get started on an xp/loot camp. While I will see those kinds of camps less than I might have at points in my past, but when I can that experience will be as rich as I expect it to be rather than watered down by the instant gratification tools so prevalent in so many other games these days.
They haven't come out with a "solution" persay however I'm sure they understand that making it possible for players with shorter playtime durations will be key for long term sustainability in the playerbase. I believe that to keep the game more in line with itself and its identity is to have a good amount of open world content that players can hunt in smaller/less optimized teams compared to the "dungeon-standard" groups. Of course the content would be of lesser risk v reward however its accessibility is its primary purpose to serve for not only overland population but if you were to log on for a short duration of time and want to make a little bit of exp and or some coin, you would have options.
Thanks for your posts guys, they're both excellent.
Fehsthey I couldn't agree more. I'd rather the game exclude me than destroy itself to include me LOL.
Raive I think that's definitely one way to approach it. Open world zones that provide a quick way to jump in and out of groups but without loot quite as good as what you'd find at the bottom of a dungeon.
I wonder what VR will come up with?
Amsai said: They have stated their target play session being 2 hours in which you can feel youve made progress. Now thats not super specific but it gives an idea.
That's pretty good. I know they've talked vaguely about how they plan to include players with less time to offer. I just wonder how they plan on doing it.
Time seems to be a nasty opponent. We need a new term for it in the MMO genre.
I think the target time is going to be a wide net to cast. I hope the 2 hour analysis and target works for most. I know I would like it. Here again I Still want those ridiculous events of old.
Ox
Well VR must have sat around a table with ale and decided on the number. Maybe had side of beef to go around to get the creative juices going.
after several hours of this 2 to be exact they came to a few conclusions. One, that was all the time had run out and the local pub. Two, half the group was hammered. Three, they had to go home toothier significant others. So after a nasty hang over and a plate of haggis they went with 2 hours.
Having some fun with this one.
Ox
ho HO! call it a players revenge.
Where past devs (not VRI) created the....Time-sink (<-- this is correct spelling, like heat-sink on so many computer processors{chips}; for sync is short for synchronize, if you are "in-sync" you are synchronized with the other. Doing the same thing and with the same timing- marching soldiers are "in sync" with each other)
now they must create a time-thrust? (time- blow?)- that which moves time back or gives time. Instead of spending time (to do X), one.....earns time? where an hour was spent now only 15min was spent? ( after having gone through the hour)
sounds metaphysical to me
I feel like to create that good ol' EQ feeling or that good ol' VG feeling they have to aim this MMO in the direction of a 'virtual world'. 'Living' in a virtual world meant you spent time in it and I honestly don't know how they are going to create that feeling with aiming at a '2 hour play time can make you feel like you accomplished something' goal. Imo, if you only got 1 hour and some change maybe this type of game isn't for you. And by 'type of game' I don't mean Pantheon specifically, I mean an MMO aimed at being a virtual world because I just don't know how they can make a game catered to people with little time and still make it feel like a virtual world. The two principles just seem to clash and not mix well at all.
I don't understand why VRi wants to bring back that 'sticky' feeling of a virtual world if they don't plan on having people spend time in it. And I don't understand why people want the fun and glory of EQ and VG but don't want to spend the time doing it. I'm not trying to offend at all so please don't mistake me for saying that. I just feel like the reason why EQ and VG were great was BECAUSE you could literally lose yourself and spend hours in those worlds/games. That's why they were fun. But a lot of what I hear from both the devs and players is that we don't have that kind of time to play any more and they are going to try and create Pantheon to accomodate for that. The ideas just seem to oppose each other and I'm highly curious as to how they handle this.
NoobieDoo said:I feel like to create that good ol' EQ feeling or that good ol' VG feeling they have to aim this MMO in the direction of a 'virtual world'. 'Living' in a virtual world meant you spent time in it and I honestly don't know how they are going to create that feeling with aiming at a '2 hour play time can make you feel like you accomplished something' goal. Imo, if you only got 1 hour and some change maybe this type of game isn't for you. And by 'type of game' I don't mean Pantheon specifically, I mean an MMO aimed at being a virtual world because I just don't know how they can make a game catered to people with little time and still make it feel like a virtual world. The two principles just seem to clash and not mix well at all.
I don't understand why VRi wants to bring back that 'sticky' feeling of a virtual world if they don't plan on having people spend time in it. And I don't understand why people want the fun and glory of EQ and VG but don't want to spend the time doing it. I'm not trying to offend at all so please don't mistake me for saying that. I just feel like the reason why EQ and VG were great was BECAUSE you could literally lose yourself and spend hours in those worlds/games. That's why they were fun. But a lot of what I hear from both the devs and players is that we don't have that kind of time to play any more and they are going to try and create Pantheon to accomodate for that. The ideas just seem to oppose each other and I'm highly curious as to how they handle this.
Well said. This is my feeling exactly. In fact, I just commented on a similar topic, making a very similar point.
From day one, Pantheon has never made any allusions about being a game for everyone. In fact, one of the core tenants of Pantheon is that it won’t be for everyone. We can't petition for a game with hardcore, old school, immersive elements and then recoil when it gets developed and we realize we don't have time to play said game.
NoobieDoo said:I feel like to create that good ol' EQ feeling or that good ol' VG feeling they have to aim this MMO in the direction of a 'virtual world'. 'Living' in a virtual world meant you spent time in it and I honestly don't know how they are going to create that feeling with aiming at a '2 hour play time can make you feel like you accomplished something' goal. Imo, if you only got 1 hour and some change maybe this type of game isn't for you. And by 'type of game' I don't mean Pantheon specifically, I mean an MMO aimed at being a virtual world because I just don't know how they can make a game catered to people with little time and still make it feel like a virtual world. The two principles just seem to clash and not mix well at all.
I don't understand why VRi wants to bring back that 'sticky' feeling of a virtual world if they don't plan on having people spend time in it. And I don't understand why people want the fun and glory of EQ and VG but don't want to spend the time doing it. I'm not trying to offend at all so please don't mistake me for saying that. I just feel like the reason why EQ and VG were great was BECAUSE you could literally lose yourself and spend hours in those worlds/games. That's why they were fun. But a lot of what I hear from both the devs and players is that we don't have that kind of time to play any more and they are going to try and create Pantheon to accomodate for that. The ideas just seem to oppose each other and I'm highly curious as to how they handle this.
Very good points. I think that has been in the back of my mind for a long time. It does beg the question of what type of game will be developed? We know VR is determined to give us back that long lost feeling of the good old days but at what cost. I think you may have hit the nail on the head.
I understand people have less time to play. So does that mean by definition one is looking for a social game or moderate depth built in. A time passer but not too much time? Then you have that crowd that has to get to end content in 20 minutes. How will they fit in here if at all before the forums explode or You Tube goes nuts with nitwits crying about time sink and do depth.
Let hope VR has thought of this and I know they have but it is what you do with the information so we have to wait and see or maybe a Dev could pop in here on this one.
Ox
The thing with Vanguard is it had a MASSIVE mount of landmass that was left virtually unpopulated. Literally barren open space areas that could've easily been done up nicely as just where family of mobs were around. There were places that were dangerous...then there were places that COULD have been dangerous but wasn't. Also there was content you could do in small groups to continue progression, it didn't require full out-right groups to get things going which was nice.
NoobieDoo said:I feel like to create that good ol' EQ feeling or that good ol' VG feeling they have to aim this MMO in the direction of a 'virtual world'. 'Living' in a virtual world meant you spent time in it and I honestly don't know how they are going to create that feeling with aiming at a '2 hour play time can make you feel like you accomplished something' goal. Imo, if you only got 1 hour and some change maybe this type of game isn't for you. And by 'type of game' I don't mean Pantheon specifically, I mean an MMO aimed at being a virtual world because I just don't know how they can make a game catered to people with little time and still make it feel like a virtual world. The two principles just seem to clash and not mix well at all.
I don't understand why VRi wants to bring back that 'sticky' feeling of a virtual world if they don't plan on having people spend time in it. And I don't understand why people want the fun and glory of EQ and VG but don't want to spend the time doing it. I'm not trying to offend at all so please don't mistake me for saying that. I just feel like the reason why EQ and VG were great was BECAUSE you could literally lose yourself and spend hours in those worlds/games. That's why they were fun. But a lot of what I hear from both the devs and players is that we don't have that kind of time to play any more and they are going to try and create Pantheon to accomodate for that. The ideas just seem to oppose each other and I'm highly curious as to how they handle this.
I definitely don't want to see the game cater to casual players in a way that will ruin it, but I don't necessarily think that's the only way it can go. I think it's more about how you use your time and what your expectations are. Personally I don't want to spend more than three or four hours in front of a screen any more. I did 8 a day easily in high school and now it's just not for me. Maybe once in a while but not often. But that's fine because I don't expect to be raiding without investing a lot of time.
In classic EQ you could make solid progress with two hours a day play time as a solo character. Or if you had supplies and stayed logged near a spot where you could get an outdoor pub, two hours could net you some decent xp provided you found a group fast enough. I mostly solo'd my monk to 50 in classic and I made progress in a two hour session. If I had messed around I wouldn't have made much xp or loot but if I was grinding it was pretty good. Was really just a matter of using the time wisely. I think those opportunities can exist in Pantheon without creating problems for anyone, and I think they could even be promoted to some extent.
I feel like EQ is gone. People just don't want to sit around teaching their friends Ogre and Elven languages any more. Or sit around selling their items. They want to get into the action and group up in dungeons. So the world that people spent hours in with EQ is gone. I would love for a world like EQ where people lived in its world doing all sorts of things OTHER than fighting in dungeons but it seems there are too many people who just don't have the time for that. Which is fine, for Pantheon to succeed it will have to be more like VG. VG was very much a group-centric game that did away with a lot of the elements in EQ that people just don't find appealing any more.
But it will be tricky. I've seen a lot of people claim they want a lengthy XP curve and if you played VG in only 2 hour sessions, it would take you FOREVER to reach max level. 2 hour sessions in crafting would prolly take you forever. Diplomacy...forever. The thing about VG is that you could play in 2 hour sessions but nobody did. People played for hours on hours. Is Pantheon's goal for '2 hour sessions' to be similar to VG's where there were things you could do like crafting and diplomacy in 2 hours and possibly get things done albeit slowly and then adventuring would require even more time but you could still group for 2 hours and inch your xp bar up a bit and possibly get an item? Or do they plan on making the xp curve slightly more easy where 2 hour groups make more progress than a 2 hour session in VG? Too many damn questions lol.
Vira said:NoobieDoo said:I definitely don't want to see the game cater to casual players in a way that will ruin it, but I don't necessarily think that's the only way it can go. I think it's more about how you use your time and what your expectations are. Personally I don't want to spend more than three or four hours in front of a screen any more. I did 8 a day easily in high school and now it's just not for me. Maybe once in a while but not often. But that's fine because I don't expect to be raiding without investing a lot of time.
I think 3-4 hours is good for a play session in this type of game/world. When I raided in VG I made our raids 3-4 hours tops. You can get stuff accomplished in that amount of time, at least you could in VG. I think 3 hour sessions would be a better target for this type of game and if the devs said 3 hours was their aim then that would be perfect. Two hours is a different story. Not impossible but people spent hours in EQ and VG so I just find it tricky to create a world where you can spend 2 hours.
This post was edited by NoobieDoo at July 7, 2016 1:27 PM PDT
NoobieDoo said:I feel like EQ is gone. People just don't want to sit around teaching their friends Ogre and Elven languages any more. Or sit around selling their items. They want to get into the action and group up in dungeons. So the world that people spent hours in with EQ is gone. I would love for a world like EQ where people lived in its world doing all sorts of things OTHER than fighting in dungeons but it seems there are too many people who just don't have the time for that. Which is fine, for Pantheon to succeed it will have to be more like VG. VG was very much a group-centric game that did away with a lot of the elements in EQ that people just don't find appealing any more.
But it will be tricky. I've seen a lot of people claim they want a lengthy XP curve and if you played VG in only 2 hour sessions, it would take you FOREVER to reach max level. 2 hour sessions in crafting would prolly take you forever. Diplomacy...forever. The thing about VG is that you could play in 2 hour sessions but nobody did. People played for hours on hours. Is Pantheon's goal for '2 hour sessions' to be similar to VG's where there were things you could do like crafting and diplomacy in 2 hours and possibly get things done albeit slowly and then adventuring would require even more time but you could still group for 2 hours and inch your xp bar up a bit and possibly get an item? Or do they plan on making the xp curve slightly more easy where 2 hour groups make more progress than a 2 hour session in VG? Too many damn questions lol.
Now let be clear, VG's xp curve was only difficult because post lvl 35 at launch there wasn't any content until later on. The curve actually was pretty moderate leaning to the high side but I thought it was decent. :p
Amsai said: Wasnt trying to stir the pot with the 2 hour comment. However, just to add my 2 gil to this. I think some of you are using the faulty logic of "all or nothing". So i dont see a problem with 2 hr play time coexisting with an old school philosophy. It depends on how its implemented. And some modern concessions wont make it not old school. Remember that not everyone likes the same things and some people are more hardcore on some issues than others. Like people that want everything as brutal hardcore as possible except anything dealing with economy. Im not making a right or wrong claim. Im saying just dont paint everything so black and white.
I agree. There is no reason we can not have a game that rewards the player that puts in large amounts of time. A game that can be truly immersive, like EQ. However, the same game can allow people to make 'some' progress if they put in a couple hours. The reason I know this can work is because it is how I played EQ back in the day. It is also how I will likely play Pantheon. Just because someone says they will likely play 1-3 hours a day, doesn't mean that that is all it will ever be. More than likely (in my case), that is the average. Some days may be 1 or 2 hours, or even 0 hours. Some weekends I may put in a 7-8 hours stretch if it's raining out. The key is make certain there is content to support short periods of play, but to also include rewarding content for the player that has the time to be 'immersed'. The former is typically filled using outdoor camps or camps early in a dungeon. The later, deep camps or raids. They just need to make sure there is level appropriate content available to all.
Make Exp and decent equipment available to anyone who puts in any amount of time. Make the legendary equipment, high exp gain, and grand quests available to those who put in the long sessions.
JDNight said:I agree. There is no reason we can not have a game that rewards the player that puts in large amounts of time. A game that can be truly immersive, like EQ. However, the same game can allow people to make 'some' progress if they put in a couple hours. The reason I know this can work is because it is how I played EQ back in the day. It is also how I will likely play Pantheon. Just because someone says they will likely play 1-3 hours a day, doesn't mean that that is all it will ever be. More than likely (in my case), that is the average. Some days may be 1 or 2 hours, or even 0 hours. Some weekends I may put in a 7-8 hours stretch if it's raining out. The key is make certain there is content to support short periods of play, but to also include rewarding content for the player that has the time to be 'immersed'. The former is typically filled using outdoor camps or camps early in a dungeon. The later, deep camps or raids. They just need to make sure there is level appropriate content available to all.
Make Exp and decent equipment available to anyone who puts in any amount of time. Make the legendary equipment, high exp gain, and grand quests available to those who put in the long sessions.
pretty much sums it up for me as a bare minimum. It will be interesting to see it implemented this time around. I feel like a lot of things in EQ were not used as intended. A lot of mobs that were quest mobs or were just there for immersion/lore etc became xp camps. Interested to see what happens now with this team who have over a decade of history and experience to draw upon.
I wonder if they will anticipate higher server load on weekends or holidays- some may want to play for 6 hours on days off- depending.
You better believe the first saturday I am going to get all my stuff done in the morning and think about what to order in for dinner. Maybe jumping up to take the clothes out of the washer and put them in ther dryer. heh
I am going to have this issue as well. I am hoping to find a close group that will play with a set time every week. One or two days. Even if that means that people have a seperate character they play when the group is outside its play time... so they dont out level the group.
With the exception of weekends and during the summer (when I wasn't working or taking classes), I only spent 1-3 hours a day playing EQ. I felt like I accomplished plenty. There was always something to work towards, and the fact that it sometimes took me weeks or even months made achieving it all the sweeter.
People need to readjust their expectations. If they expect to have levels and items poured on them as they do in new MMOs, you will be in for a rude awakening.
The two streams we've seen thus far were 2 hours (by design, I'm sure). What they accomplished is probably what you can expect in a normal play session permitted you plan accordingly. If people aren't satisfied with that or with working steadily towards long-term, meaningful goals, they probably won't be satisified playing Pantheon.