Restore my faith in the community. Humor me EQ vets. Could be from Meridian or from WoW or from Korean MMO clone number 569. Dont care.
Just 1 extra thing. They need to be things you'd want to see in Pantheon!!! Not things that you liked but dont think it would fit the lore, or design, etc.
Go Nuts!!!
I loved the Guild wars in Age of Conan the building of the Keeps and defending them they allowed non PVP players to not care but gave people something extra to play around with. Both guilds had to agree so if you didnt feel like doing a war one week you didnt have to.
2: It isnt an MMO but in Final Fantasy 8 they had a card game called triple traid. Something like that inside an MMO where players can challange others to some sort of card game for a small wager would be awesome (Witcher three also has a cool card game)
This sounds like a pretentious "Gotcha!" post, but I'll bite.
LOTRO
Instrument mechanic. The ABC notation.
Mechanics from the Warden class (tank) - Specifically avoidance tanking, aggro leeching, and survivability through HoT's (that's 3, but we'll count as 1)
Mechanics from the Captain class (Buffer/Healer) - Battle standards, specifically
The landscape graphics overall were done wonderfully well. Not so much the character models.
The Scholar tradeskill, or similar
Mounts that aren't invulnerable. When your horse gets whacked a number of times, it "dies".
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Moot point, really, since this is a "brad game" we expect "brad things". My list for things found in EQ and VG that I would like to see in Pantheon will always be much more extensive any day of the week. What is it you're trying to prove here, exactly?
-Tralyan
In SWG I loved how the more you were knocked out the more wounds your body and mind health pools would gain wounds and lower your max available pool size through blacking the bar out. It made you have to deal with it at some point. Most of the time it would be a trip back to the cantina, but if you were lucky and had entertainers in your group you could plop down a camp fire to watch them dance and listen to their music as your wounds healed. It was a very similar feeling to med breaks in EQ, but with more flavor.
And in an extreme effort to challenge myself, I will now attempt to pull an example from WoW...
Ok, I think I have one, one of the things I remember being really exciting when leveling up in vanilla WoW was the possibility of having a low level epic drop off of random mobs. Come to think of it, they may be some of the only names of weapons from WoW that I can remember to this day. Fiery war axe, Kang the decapitator, Gut Ripper, and the Krol Blade at level 51. I'm sure there were others, but those are the ones I can remember.
Not sure if its cheating, but there are a few from Vanguard that I'd want.
I'm all for more sandbox gameplay options. I'd love to see things like 1) diplomacy and it playing a more serious role in all ways. I'd like to see factions make at least temporary war or peace because of it. I'd like to see it become necessary for opening all kinds of options in regard to PvE and questing.
I'd like to see a much more in depth crafting system. Things like 2) houses and boats for sure, but I'd like to see large scale cooperative crafting. Building a house or a keep, or a large ship should become a cooperative effort, not just a matter of one guy getting the mats and presto chango, a boat pops out. Building structures and ships isn't anything new, but involving a more cooperative effort hasn't really been done unless you count AA very basic system with boats.
I'd like to see 3) animal taming and husbandry. Its been in games like Black Desert and Mortal online, but I'd like to see it in Pantheon.
I'd like to see 4) trader gameplay like trade routes by land and sea. Its been in games like Age of Wushu or ArcheAge.
5) A guild reputation system similar to EQ2 but that unlocks perks and enables guilds to earn the right to claim plots or even small (non-capital) villages in the world as their base of operations.
I think a more 6) cinematic way of doing quest dialog like was done in FFXI would be amazing.
Theres also a things about EQ, small and great, that did not work right or that had a long term negative impact. Little things like strafe running (trivialized pve). Complete healing (made cleric the only good healer). warriors being the only viable end game tank. Mob summoning. Mobs healing through walls out of combat or casting outdoor spells indoors. I could literally go on and on.
Contrary to whats often propagated around here, the people who champion EQ do not do so blindly. There were very important design decisions and philosophies used to create EQ that were scrutinized for over 20 years in MUDs before EQ ever graced the internet. Many of us believe it was those tenets that made for a compelling virtual world such as EverQuest.
I intentionally left out many suggestions regarding themepark systems because I think EverQuest was the absolute pinnacle of PvE progression. No accomplishment in any game since carried the weight of your achievements in EQ. There are certainly aspects that could use tweaking, like ways to prevent the monopolization of content - esp. at endgame, but I think PvE and character progression would be the aspects of Pantheon that should change the least. They know how to build a proper themepark in a sandbox. I'm more interested in ways they can expand the box outside of that park.
Amsai said:Restore my faith in the community. Humor me EQ vets. Could be from Meridian or from WoW or from Korean MMO clone number 569. Dont care.
Just 1 extra thing. They need to be things you'd want to see in Pantheon!!! Not things that you liked but dont think it would fit the lore, or design, etc.
Go Nuts!!!
Where's your follow up post where you systematically address all of the completely valid concerns raised by the "eq vets" instead of making passive aggressive posts like this? This made up narrative that the eq vets aren't open to things non EQ is a farce. Just because you keep repeating it doesn't make it true. You're calling out people to defend something that most of us have straight up already demonstrated many times. It's nonsense.
Oh and "The combat in RYL was great".
Pretty much every single thing about FFXI LOL !! But it has long been said that Square Enix stole a lot of ideas from EQ so technically some of the things I like about FFXI probably were brad ideas! FFXI just built on it and made it even better. I hope pantheon can do the same.
One thing I loved though specifically was how in FFXI , once you attacked a mob it was claimed as yours and no one could interfere.
Technyze said:Pretty much every single thing about FFXI LOL !! But it has long been said that Square Enix stole a lot of ideas from EQ so technically some of the things I like about FFXI probably were brad ideas! FFXI just built on it and made it even better. I hope pantheon can do the same.
One thing I loved though specifically was how in FFXI , once you attacked a mob it was claimed as yours and no one could interfere.
Here's to hoping that isn't how it is in Pantheon. Now if I left it there, apparently some people around here think that I'm an EQ fanboy and EQ did nothing wrong in my eyes... that couldn't be further from the truth. For example, on this topic that he just brought up, I would not want it to be like Everquest, where the person or group or raid who does 50.00001% of the mobs hp gets the kill, I would put much more weight/emphasis on the first 20-30%. I feel that once a person/group/raid deal 20-30% of the mobs hp in damage, it should then become their claim, it should NOT lock out other people from damaging it, or interacting with it, this would be contrary to a virtual world, but the loot/experience claim should go to those people.
Technyze said:Pretty much every single thing about FFXI LOL !! But it has long been said that Square Enix stole a lot of ideas from EQ so technically some of the things I like about FFXI probably were brad ideas! FFXI just built on it and made it even better. I hope pantheon can do the same.
One thing I loved though specifically was how in FFXI , once you attacked a mob it was claimed as yours and no one could interfere.
Step 1: acknowledge the problem: Killstealing, overcrowding.
Step 2: admit that the solution is imperfect. Locking content like this hurts the concept of living in a virtual world.
Step 3: debate if the solution is even a net improvement. We don't need to do this here.
Step 4: consider alternatives.
Basically my point is that you like that there was a solution to a problem that really bothers you. 100% valid. But I would venture that it is the absence of the problem mitigated by this solution that you like, and not the solution itself.
What are the alternatives to promote a healthy environment where the behavior that makes some developers resort to drastic solutions can be avoided without a cure as bad as the disease?
Not a fan of BDO but a couple things they did that i think are cool.
Early creation of your characters, pre-launch, and reservation of your names. Of course BDO had the luxury of the game already being released in KR for 2 years, so not a new game with new character creation.
Also in the market place they use one of those "prove you are human" schemes to validate purchases. meaning they throw up some numbers on the screen that are obfuscated to the point some automated BOT could not scan them and make a purchase.
Katalyzt said:In SWG I loved how the more you were knocked out the more wounds your body and mind health pools would gain wounds and lower your max available pool size through blacking the bar out. It made you have to deal with it at some point. Most of the time it would be a trip back to the cantina, but if you were lucky and had entertainers in your group you could plop down a camp fire to watch them dance and listen to their music as your wounds healed. It was a very similar feeling to med breaks in EQ, but with more flavor.
Yes this! on the meditation aspect, I was a calimari scout ( I wanted to try what I thought was a hard combo) but this aspect of adventuring with entertainers was neat.
Ignoring the passive aggressive tone of the post (by making my own passive aggressive comment of my own no less) let me see what I can come up with.
In Asheron's Call I loved the monthly events, the vastness of the world and the exploration that encouraged and (what felt like) ever present danger when you got into unknown territory.
in DAoC is there was very cool lore base on different mythologies, the RvR was much fun (although not appropriate for PRF it deserves a mention), cloaks!, the ability to design your own tabard, interesting classes.
WoW has great character animations and awesome attention to detail with a world that feels alive. I loved the variety in the Warlock class,
Archeage did a great job with farming and trading goods. Nothing better than taking goods into hostile territory to try and make a couple bucks. The idea behind stealing from other players and getting thrown in jail if you got caught was great. The implementation maybe didn't work out as well. Ships were a lot of fun too.
That's it for now. I'm sure there are many more but this is what I came up with off the top of my head AND typed this whole thing on my phone please appreciate that lol
This is seriously tough for me... I no doubt enjoyed a lot of MMO's over the years but most faded fast.
1. Star Wars Galaxies - This game for me had some of my most memorable experiences outside of Everquest... The Crafting System was awesome and it felt closer to being a sandbox game than anything around today.
2. Dark Age of Camelet - PVP/RVR in this game was just flat out fun... I rolled with a group of friends who would LAN weekly and had some amazing experiences with our roaming kill group from Hibernia =)
3. World of Warcraft - I had a Love/Hate relationship with this game... Leveling was boring as hell and it didn't feel rewarding at all. The end game raiding in WoW however was always pretty solid but it became too much DDR for me in the later expansions.
4. Warhammer Online - I liked how classes had defined roles very similar to EQ and each had obvious strengths and weaknesses vs other classes. They didn't try to balance classes 1v1 like WoW always seems to be trying to do.
5. Star Wars The Old Republic - The storytelling was amazing and of course the cut scenes were classic Bioware. I am not sure how wel this would fit in other MMO's that don't have as rich of a story as Star Wars.
I am sure there are more that I can't think of off the top of my head =P
Fine Im passive aggressive, I can live with that. Im not really trying to do that though. No veiled hostitlity meant or implied. But you did at least stay on topic, Malsirian.And I definitely appreciate it. If you do perceive anything from me it would be frustration. Sometimes I feel like me and EQ vets are talking through eachother and not at eachother. Like we might as well be speaking different languages. But the odd thing is I agree with about 90-95% of what you guys say and want. There are a few major points of contention, but outside of that anything else just comes down to slight differences in implementation. What does worry me is what seems like constant negativity for anything not from EQ. Which is what inspired this thread. Positive things about other MMOs. Thats all I wanted to see. Assurance for outsiders, and maybe a little introspection from others.
Keep it on topic ladies and gentlmen. You can either name some things or you cant. This should be a postitive and easy thread. All you need to do is name the things from other games you like.
@Krixus and Rallyd
You have both responded negatively. Rallyd didnt even bother to name anything and only critisized another post. Krixus did pretty much the same but at least gave me 1 thing.
And Krixus you create the thread and Ill do just that, in another thread. Not this one.
Keep em coming guys.
Amsai said:If you do perceive anything from me it would be frustration. Sometimes I feel like me and EQ vets are talking through eachother and not at eachother. Like we might as well be speaking different languages. But the odd thing is I agree with about 90-95% of what you guys say and want.
i hear you. And I'm don't doubt one bit you feel that way. Hell I get tired of hearing about EQ and I love it. But that's where most started, what we want to get back to, and the developers game lineage. So it's gonna come up. You've been really receptive to all that in the past and a great contributor to the community. I think we're all on the same page. I was just giving you a hard time with the passive aggressive comment. There are plenty of good ideas that could be drawn from other mmos I just think the one that did the most right and has endured the longest is EQ.
You should join us in p99!
I really need to. Its been a goal of mine for a while. But Ive mostly sworn off MMOs every since SE killed FFXIV with the abomination known as FFXIV: ARR. I had hoped for a more open world and FFXI direction but that blew up. And they ruined FFXI when they raised the level cap (bad idea in a mostly horizontal gear endgame). Though between an occaisional dabbling in Project Gorgon. And Some aweosme single player games Ive been busy. Im about 115 hours into Dark souls 3 and only into NG+1. Just taking a break tonight so I dont become a Hollow lol (Dark Souls Humor)
Project: Gorgon is an interesting game and one that reminds me a lot of the first mmo I played, Asheron's Call. Not a big surprise as he was one of the developers on it. But that's another example of a game that i started to include in my post above but got frustrated trying to use the message boards and my phone. There are some really great ideas in P:G that PRF (see I can use acronyms too:) could draw inspiration from.
If you change your mind about P99 we have a good group, think there were 17 or so on last night. Most everyone has started fresh too. And we have plenty of time to kill before Pantheon. You wouldn't be the only one playing now who didn't originally. It's been over 14 years or so since I played last. I am noob again.
EQ wasn't even my first MMO love or my second. My first experience with "MMOs" was through Sierra Online or what I would consider the closest thing to a graphic MMO that I had played prior to UO (really was a graphic MUD).
1. So, the first I would use is from Sierra/Imagination Network (really three separate games) - Shadows of Yserbius/Fates of Twinion/Ruins of Cawdor. Although, what I like about it is really not "different" than EQ. It had defined classes in the traditional D&D mold, and you dungeon crawled through a massive dungeon without any handholding or direction with our without a party of other players (you had to have others to advance deeper for the most part). There were pits, traps, nasty bosses mixed in and you died often. And, what made it even more addicting is I didn't have the unlimited package - the subscription for it back in the day was something ridiculous for unlimited - like $120/month? It charged at an hourly rate as well which I did - which I did like 30 hours.. can't remember the rate, but I do remember always burning through the time within the first week or two of the month. About impossible to find any info on it anymore, but here's a link to some screenshots: http://www.giantbomb.com/shadow-of-yserbius/3030-2419/images/
2. My second love was Ultima Online, which, looking back it isn't usually my cup of tea with the open world PvP, FFA looting, etc.; however, I loved it, even when I died and lost all my first set of plate armor that I spent so long mining to get. Although it didn't have levels, I really enjoyed the skill system in the game at the time - where different activities you engaged in raised certain attributes. Like mining or lumberjacking raised strength and dexterity where alchemy raised intelligence and dexterity. I wouldn't mind seeing Pantheon cherry-pick some ideas from the skill system here and the depth that went into it. It also had open world housing which was neat for the time. Further, I enjoyed some of the ideas like reagents for spells - although, for Pantheon, it would have to be more limited as every spell couldn't require them or it would be a pain. Here's a link to some UO info:
http://uorforum.com/threads/new-to-ultima-online-start-here.3182/
3. Now.. more recent games from this century, I've mentioned plenty of times, but I'd most definitely want Pantheon to cherry pick from Project Gorgon's skill system, or create a skill system that is equally in depth. The only difference is I wouldn't want the skill system tied to progression (replace traditional leveling), but basically another avenue for progression. I'll link them again below - scroll down a bit:
http://projectgorgon.com/wiki/Main_Page
4. And, this is not really so much of a "game feature" but more of a system requirement request, but I'd also cherry pick from World of Warcraft. The one thing that I'll say without a shadow of a doubt that World of Warcraft nailed was accessibility - both to the casual player and the computer. I'm not so much concerned with the casual player, but I'm definitely concerned about the computer. Where Vanguard failed miserably was the ridiculous system requirements, and even then, some top-end computers didn't play it right. So, I'd hope Pantheon follows more of the World of Warcraft model of accessibility as far as system specs go. I'd want great graphics, but at the very least, be able to play it with a mid-tier computer with the sliders all the way down low. Also, be sure to continually test for performance - hardly anything will lose subscriptions faster than a terrible launch. I've linked for the original system requirements for WoW (compared to today) along with Vanguard:
http://kotaku.com/world-of-warcraft-system-requirements-have-changed-a-lo-1638506551
http://www.systemrequirements.net/vanguard-saga-of-heroes-system-requirements.html
5. I'd second Validez on DAoC's RvR/PvP
6. I'd second Dullahan's discussion on wanting complex crafting systems seen in Vanguard or other systems altogether that added depth like diplomacy. I also enjoyed how you could gather a node with multiple players simutaneously for the chance for better/more rare ingredients.
And, I'm sure I could name more if I wracked my brain a bit, but to be honest, you could remove EQ from all of my posts and I would argue the same thing with the knowledge that I've gained over the years for what I would argue would make a successful old school, hardcore, MMORPG. I just use EQ as a frame of reference as many/most who read here can relate. If you read the majority of my posts and remove EQ and insert difficult social game/MMO you could derive the same meaning out of my posts. I might do that the next time I join a discussion.
1. Dark Age of Camelot - RVR/PVP was an absolute blast! Played with a group up through the first three batllegrounds all three realms. Kept us entertained on a once per week schedule for a couple of years! The classes were designed for such a balance and probably doesn't play well in a PVE type of game. But there certainly was a lot of thought and design into class balance that I feel can be a good point for moving forward - leading to number 2.
2. Dark Age of Camelot - Uniqueness of classes and abilities and the special attacks (on really long timers) and positioning when it came to encounters. I remember one particularly nasty battleground when it came down to my Barbarian against a Berserker (I think those were the two). The Berserker had the special attack that would turn him into a bear and go full out assault with super nasty attack with the downside of having zero defensive capabilities. The barbarian had a special attack that did a super-duper one time punch but then out of stamina. We were pretty much the last two standing and we both still had our special attack capabilities. I was waiting for him to trigger his bear form such that with the ensuing zero AC I could trigger my special attack and one-punch him. He was waiting for me to trigger my one-punch attack and while he would have been hit hard he wouldn't have gone down and then he'd trigger his bear form and me without stamina would go down hard. In the end we both beat each other up - neither one of us triggering our attack - and then got taken down by archers from the third realm. Too fun!
3. Dungeons and Dragons Online - The one starting dungeon with the goblins in the underground cave. By far the best AI I have ever experienced. One encounter with the goblin shaman who would launch fireballs at us while we were engaged in fighting the warrior goblins. Dispatching someone to go take out the shaman and he would run away and bounce around and make us chase him leaving the rest of the group weaker. Upon returning to the group to help out with the warriors the shaman would get back in range and launch fireballs again - only at the healer when the healer would cast a healing spell. I also remember the scorpion encounter where at times the scorpions would burrow underground, you would lose your target, and then they'd pop up above the ground behind you to sting you. When they were multiple it was a constant watch each others back. Plus the puzzles that had to be solved in the dungeon - pressing the colored gems along the wall in a correct order to open a door. The rotating tiles on the floor to activate a portal or something like that.
4. World of Warcraft - the character models were spot on fantastic. Just the right amount of cartoon that was just a real pleasure on the eyes - the models as well as the movement from melee to magic.
5. World of Warcraft - the solo instancing that existed for some of the craft skills (I think) where certain things had to be completed in a timely fashion for it to succeed. I feel this can be imporved upon when gaining levels and visiting your trainer for new skills and training. I think solo instancing around that could be fun and amazing. It doesn't break content since everyone has to go visit their own specific trainer one-on-one through the course of the game, anyway, and has no effect on anyone else or on any other content.
Amsai said:5 things from non-Brad games that you liked or loved
1) I loved the heart-poinding immersion of sneaking around in Thief and that you could hide in shadows from NPCs etc
2) I loved the clean-cut simplicity of playing Wizard101 with my kids when they were very young
3) I loved the total unscripted sandbox freedom to do whatever I wanted in Minecraft , so I built a farm.