I think people may be be misremembering level 7 mobs in EQ. Fights scaled in duration as you leveled. They started out on par with the player and took merely a few hits to kill. The hardest part was raising your weapon skills to not miss or casting to not fizzle. In a group setting, low level mobs died quickly. The longer duration fights didn't really start happening until your 30s (especially pronounced @ 40+), because that was when mob health increased exponentially (referred to as the EQ Paradox). I imagine the same will be true of Pantheon. You will probably have the ability to accelerate kill times, at the expense of more downtime.
Wolfshead said:Understanding this paradox is critical in evaluating why EverQuest was so enjoyable and successful. Online worlds like EverQuest promise a player that their avatars will increase in power as they level. Naturally the idea of character advancement that is very appealing yet when we look at the data from EQ it is merely an illusion. All the player can really do is become more “skilled” in order to compensate for the fact that his power diminishes gradually over time. Therefore the player grows relatively weaker as he grows personally stronger, hence the paradox. This paradox essentially defined and drove the EverQuest phenomenon because it presented every player with a set of continuing challenges that were appropriate for his level. Raph Koster explains it best in his excellent book A Theory of Fun for Game Design with the following quote:
Raph Koster said:Real fun comes from the challenges that are always at the margin of our ability.
This blog is a must read for anyone interested in the things that made EQ different, and the elements that really create a compelling MMO.
http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-everquest-paradox/
The only problem with the "EQ paradox" is: New players.. which will require assistance to "catch up" if they can ever "catch up" due to the release of constant expansions and content... No one willing to assist them in there quest for gear mainly and always end up either suffering or RMT'ing. I just hope VR realises this, which I think they do.. and I hope/think they're doing more horizontal content rather than vertical. I much rather see new places to go to, places to explore/level at, than yet another level cap increase.. purely because it also helps others to "catch up".
Nimryl said:The only problem with the "EQ paradox" is: New players.. which will require assistance to "catch up" if they can ever "catch up" due to the release of constant expansions and content... No one willing to assist them in there quest for gear mainly and always end up either suffering or RMT'ing. I just hope VR realises this, which I think they do.. and I hope/think they're doing more horizontal content rather than vertical. I much rather see new places to go to, places to explore/level at, than yet another level cap increase.. purely because it also helps others to "catch up".
RMT aside - This is actually a good thing for the life of the server because with the influx of new players it creates the need for them to band together and form new guilds to help each other reach that max level.
ArchMageSalamar said:Nimryl said:The only problem with the "EQ paradox" is: New players.. which will require assistance to "catch up" if they can ever "catch up" due to the release of constant expansions and content... No one willing to assist them in there quest for gear mainly and always end up either suffering or RMT'ing. I just hope VR realises this, which I think they do.. and I hope/think they're doing more horizontal content rather than vertical. I much rather see new places to go to, places to explore/level at, than yet another level cap increase.. purely because it also helps others to "catch up".
RMT aside - This is actually a good thing for the life of the server because with the influx of new players it creates the need for them to band together and form new guilds to help each other reach that max level.
What it boils down to is too many vertical expansions makes the game harder to access. There are some kind people out there that will help you.. but they're few and far between and never really "online" when you're "online" or might be busy etc. +You can't keep asking. So.. too much vertical is a bad idea.
Nimryl said:ArchMageSalamar said:Nimryl said:The only problem with the "EQ paradox" is: New players.. which will require assistance to "catch up" if they can ever "catch up" due to the release of constant expansions and content... No one willing to assist them in there quest for gear mainly and always end up either suffering or RMT'ing. I just hope VR realises this, which I think they do.. and I hope/think they're doing more horizontal content rather than vertical. I much rather see new places to go to, places to explore/level at, than yet another level cap increase.. purely because it also helps others to "catch up".
RMT aside - This is actually a good thing for the life of the server because with the influx of new players it creates the need for them to band together and form new guilds to help each other reach that max level.
I never ever saw this EQ. You had to join an exsisting guild long established.. and you were constantly begging/asking for help. Making a guild doesn't work in reality as there's never enough unguilded people at low level with a long established game. While it would be ideal.. it doesnt work like that.
Maybe you didn't play EQ when it had a healthy population, but there was little reason to beg for the first 4 or 5 years. There were people to group with everywhere, and guilds were always in need of fresh blood.
I don't really see how "playing catch up" is relevant to the EQ paradox. A game either has people at the low level to facilitate groups, or it doesn't. There really isn't a way to have "meaningful progression" in a game and not have an ever expanding gap between new players and those who've played since the beginning. The best you can hope for is minimizing that problem by gradual increasing of power through progression, finding ways to keep old content relevant, and encouraging players to start over (progeny/alts). They intend to have unique starting cities for every race, so permitted the world is big enough, players will have good reasons to replay and visit places they've never seen.
Nimryl said:......... I just hope VR realises this, which I think they do.. and I hope/think they're doing more horizontal content rather than vertical. I much rather see new places to go to, places to explore/level at, than yet another level cap increase.. purely because it also helps others to "catch up".
yes, I am happy that Brad has already said that he will work on horizontal content, for that reason and many others. I think you would really like to read his blog about that topic (I did) which can be found here: http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/174/old-ideas-and-features-to-address-potential-problems
Dullahan said:Nimryl said:ArchMageSalamar said:Nimryl said:The only problem with the "EQ paradox" is: New players.. which will require assistance to "catch up" if they can ever "catch up" due to the release of constant expansions and content... No one willing to assist them in there quest for gear mainly and always end up either suffering or RMT'ing. I just hope VR realises this, which I think they do.. and I hope/think they're doing more horizontal content rather than vertical. I much rather see new places to go to, places to explore/level at, than yet another level cap increase.. purely because it also helps others to "catch up".
RMT aside - This is actually a good thing for the life of the server because with the influx of new players it creates the need for them to band together and form new guilds to help each other reach that max level.
I never ever saw this EQ. You had to join an exsisting guild long established.. and you were constantly begging/asking for help. Making a guild doesn't work in reality as there's never enough unguilded people at low level with a long established game. While it would be ideal.. it doesnt work like that.
Maybe you didn't play EQ when it had a healthy population, but there was little reason to beg for the first 4 or 5 years. There were people to group with everywhere, and guilds were always in need of fresh blood.
I don't really see how "playing catch up" is relevant to the EQ paradox. A game either has people at the low level to facilitate groups, or it doesn't. There really isn't a way to have "meaningful progression" in a game and not have an ever expanding gap between new players and those who've played since the beginning. The best you can hope for is minimizing that problem by gradual increasing of power through progression, finding ways to keep old content relevant, and encouraging players to start over (progeny/alts). They intend to have unique starting cities for every race, so permitted the world is big enough, players will have good reasons to replay and visit places they've never seen.
Well you need better gear, AA's and so further to be able to efficent in a group. Like many people have said reputation effects you. So you need to work at everything to catch to the starting players. The starting players aren't "special" or better than anyone else they just have had more time to play the game. The best way is to not have so many vertical expansions. Doesn't really matter so much about minimising the increase power because they only come into play when a vertical expansion is released. Plus we don't know what type of population we'll have in Pantheon, but I reckon it won't be as many as the original peek of EQ.. altho it would be awesome, I just can't see it happening... atleast not for awhile.
Zarriya said:Nimryl said:......... I just hope VR realises this, which I think they do.. and I hope/think they're doing more horizontal content rather than vertical. I much rather see new places to go to, places to explore/level at, than yet another level cap increase.. purely because it also helps others to "catch up".
yes, I am happy that Brad has already said that he will work on horizontal content, for that reason and many others. I think you would really like to read his blog about that topic (I did) which can be found here: http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/174/old-ideas-and-features-to-address-potential-problems
I've read it. I just don't like putting words into the developers mouths. :)
Dullahan is right, and honestly I can't remember grouping much in EQ before level 7 so I can't say what the pace was like, but the killing pace in the stream still felt fast, and it wasn't just Fiery Avenger and Kilsin's 850 damage backstab.
I loved the stream and personally thought the game is incredible shape for a pre-alpha version! I'm well aware that there is still PLENTY of tuning to be done, but these comments are more towards the gameplay philosophy than tuning so bear with me :D
With that said, my only concern was mob density. Today's MMORPGS mobs are almost standardized as groups of 3+ (WoW, EQII, ESO especially). The Pantheon stream gave me a little bit of that feeling. Take ESO for example, I personally felt that the difficulty of 3 "normal" mobs should have been the difficulty of 1 single mob. Even in the Pantheon stream, handling 2-3 red mobs with a group didn't seem OVERLY difficult with the use of a little CC. I would LOVE to see Pantheon thin out the mob density a little bit in exchange for slightly more difficult mobs.
There are tons of benefits for increased mob difficulty and reduced mob density. Here are just a few cases:
1) Reduction in item quantity across the server. (How quickly did greens in WoW simply become Vendor/DE loot)
2) Reduction in vendor loot will have a direct impact on item currency inflation. What fun is it to pay 2,000,000 gold for an item 6 months into the game?
3) Reduction of item quantity gives a greater sense of accomplishment. In EQ you didn't see stats on items until around ~level 30, and when you did, those items felt so satisfactory.
4) Game balance. When every class can solo that 3 pack of mobs because they can reset them if needed, it's almost like a save point. Do 33% of the mobs health, leash, reset. Do another 33%... This effectively allows every class to "cheese" solo mobs.
5) Game speed. When a game is balanced around 3 mobs the pace of combat is expected to be incredibly quick, spamming your GCD on cooldown, and if you miss a GCD, that begins the separation between the "casuals" and the "elites"
6) Less direct impact and more personal feel, but Character Strength. It again, felt like an accomplishment going toe-to-toe with a single mob and having to recover for decent while afterwards. Whereas in ESO, I would drop each mob of the 3 pack in 3-4 hits. Taking on 15+ mobs at a time and AOEing them down was doable by just about every single class... If you knew what you were doing. Killing and leveling became more of whack-a-mole than anything resembling a real challenge.
Again, I'm INCREDIBLY pleased with what I saw, this was just one of the very few aspects that just didn't quite sit right in my mind.
-Furor
I assure you if we're able to kill red con mobs like they did in the video in Pantheon by beta, I will be extremely surprised. If you notice, they land spells and don't miss vs a mob regardless of its /con. That means they haven't implemented the systems for resists/misses yet.
Lots of mobs are there for a reason in an Everquest style game, because there should be pulling mechanics to split them that haven't been implemented yet in Pantheon. Monks should be able to feign split, other classes should be able to harmony/lull. Reducing mob count to increase difficulty isn't necessary for this style of game, just make the mobs harder and leave the count alone :)
Furor said:I loved the stream and personally thought the game is incredible shape for a pre-alpha version! I'm well aware that there is still PLENTY of tuning to be done, but these comments are more towards the gameplay philosophy than tuning so bear with me :D
With that said, my only concern was mob density. Today's MMORPGS mobs are almost standardized as groups of 3+ (WoW, EQII, ESO especially). The Pantheon stream gave me a little bit of that feeling. Take ESO for example, I personally felt that the difficulty of 3 "normal" mobs should have been the difficulty of 1 single mob. Even in the Pantheon stream, handling 2-3 red mobs with a group didn't seem OVERLY difficult with the use of a little CC. I would LOVE to see Pantheon thin out the mob density a little bit in exchange for slightly more difficult mobs.
There are tons of benefits for increased mob difficulty and reduced mob density. Here are just a few cases:
1) Reduction in item quantity across the server. (How quickly did greens in WoW simply become Vendor/DE loot)
2) Reduction in vendor loot will have a direct impact on item currency inflation. What fun is it to pay 2,000,000 gold for an item 6 months into the game?
3) Reduction of item quantity gives a greater sense of accomplishment. In EQ you didn't see stats on items until around ~level 30, and when you did, those items felt so satisfactory.
4) Game balance. When every class can solo that 3 pack of mobs because they can reset them if needed, it's almost like a save point. Do 33% of the mobs damage, leash, reset. Do another 33%... This effectively allows every class to "cheese" solo mobs.
5) Game speed. When a game is balanced around 3 mobs the pace of combat is expected to be incredibly quick, spamming your GCD on cooldown, and if you miss a GCD, that begins the separation between the "casuals" and the "elites"
6) Less direct impact and more personal feel, but Character Strength. It again, felt like an accomplishment going toe-to-toe with a single mob and having to recover for decent while afterwards. Whereas in ESO, I would drop each mob of the 3 pack in 3-4 hits. Taking on 15+ mobs at a time and AOEing them down was doable by just about every single class... If you knew what you were doing. Killing and leveling became more of whack-a-mole than anything resembling a real challenge.
Again, I'm INCREDIBLY pleased with what I saw, this was just one of the very few aspects that just didn't quite sit right in my mind.
-Furor
I have nothing more to add at this time. Thank you Furor. :)
Furor -
I can tell you from my experience with how they are setting this game up, no single fight you encounter will be or feel exactly the same. You can and will need to figure out your own class/race/etc combination of skills and what they do and how you can best use them for effect to get the same type of outcome, but each fight will definitely not be the same.
As Brad stated in the Twitch stream, situational awareness is essential as you have many chances of being come upon by any other creature or monster in the area that might not take a liking to who you are or what you are doing and will take advantage of the fact you are fighting something else and decide to join in on the fight. There is also the matter of progression, as you will learn as you get stronger and grow into your characters abilities and gain new spells and abilities, so does what you are then able to take on and those now have all sorts of variabilities (casting, differing armors, various resists types and what ratio they play into the fight,types of damage they do, and also tactics).
So, there are benefits to having a more densely populated area, certainly at lower levels, than it is to have the gamed tuned to having a 'harder' mob to fight, which it turns changes your need to have a whole different set of skills (or the devs to change how they programmed the game) and what damage they do. This really changes the whole game from top to bottom, say in order to account for this throughout the lower end to higher end fighting, and that makes for a completely different game.
There are all sorts of variations to what you will come across and this is in essence what 'skill' was used for when I played vanilla EQ; learning all these varying arrays of how you can fight something and what the percentage is of your winning... or not and dying, which also will have the added benefit of stinging a bit with the death penalty, not really used much in current MMOs. This in turn raises your awareness level and makes you really not want to dye lol; but is a good thing to spur you on to really get to know your abilities and class strategies.
The fact that it 'looked' like it was 'easy' to take on a conned red mob in the video is because of the group dynamics involved and what was not translated, was just how difficult it feels like driving the character and choosing how to play that particular scenario. If they had only two or three members in that group, things would definitely not have been as easy, especially without a healer. That would have made it almost a sure bet to losing any fight with a conned 'red' type of monster. At least made it look MUCH more difficult to defeat; that group of players, being somewhat savvy on how to drive their characters and use the abilities would mitigate that more in their favor, but not by much I assure you :)
"Cheesing" mobs? not sure I understand that, but that sounds more like a grinding mechanic of some sort and being able to kite/AoE 15 mobs in this game will not really be feasible in contrast to most current MMOs, especially not with every single class; even given the experience of the player. As stated, some classes will be more attuned to solo'ing better than others, so some sort of kiting is a possibility, but not by every class most assuredly.
I'm not saying that your points are not valid, it's just that less-is-more really isn't that simple of a solution to what you stated :)
- Nuemcy