Too many times I can recall adventuring with my group in EQ1 and VG where we would come across a named/boss mob where it was a straight tank and spank mob. They were found ALL over those two MMOs. Too many times we'd come across a boss and litterally kill it without even thinking. I HOPE Pantheon does away with this.
A great example would be flipping temples in VG. There were maybe 3-5 named mobs INSIDE the temple before you even flipped it which none gave a challenge and none really required any strategy to defeat them and then once you finally flipped the temple and fought the nameds outside there really wasn't any challenge there either. I feel like in VG and possibly even EQ1, the REAL danger from level 1-cap was in having a bad pull or just getting too many mobs at once, rather then coming across a named mob or a boss.
I hope Pantheon takes a page from the Griffon questline from VG where there were many single group bosses that were VERY difficult. If I'm fighting a 'named' mob I would hope for that mob to be a little more 'special' and there would be more of a challenge to it.
NoobieDoo said:Too many times I can recall adventuring with my group in EQ1 and VG where we would come across a named/boss mob where it was a straight tank and spank mob. They were found ALL over those two MMOs. Too many times we'd come across a boss and litterally kill it without even thinking. I HOPE Pantheon does away with this.
A great example would be flipping temples in VG. There were maybe 3-5 named mobs INSIDE the temple before you even flipped it which none gave a challenge and none really required any strategy to defeat them and then once you finally flipped the temple and fought the nameds outside there really wasn't any challenge there either. I feel like in VG and possibly even EQ1, the REAL danger from level 1-cap was in having a bad pull or just getting too many mobs at once, rather then coming across a named mob or a boss.
I hope Pantheon takes a page from the Griffon questline from VG where there were many single group bosses that were VERY difficult. If I'm fighting a 'named' mob I would hope for that mob to be a little more 'special' and there would be more of a challenge to it.
Yeah, temples were a tad boring but you did need a decent group of 5-6 in at least Swamp Armour to flip them properly and someone to have done the prerequisite quest.
Griffon questline is still my all time favourite quest in any game to date, absolutely loved it! (and loved my 7 Venerable Raid Griffons!) :)
Meh ... I'm a fan or rare spawns/tougher than normal mobs. One of the things that the OP pointed out was the lack of "danger" in pulling static spawns in camps. Hell, why not add some deviation in mob spawns - you never know how tough the next mob will be, so you better damn be prepared. It's not like every animal you come across is the same in nature, so why not have 3-5 "difficulty levels" from one single spawn point?
Wouldn't it be great ... you've all been camped at the same spot, pulling mob after mob ... everyone is falling into the routine ... then the tank pulls a mob and the tank's health takes a huge dip. Right away the healer knows something's up. He has time to alert the group when BAM, the add(s) spawn. Now the CC is on his/her toes, and the tank is corralling the loose add wailing away on the healer. The group finishes the encounter, and is resting/medding up ... but the fight was so intensive that now the regular spawns are back up, and the party is playing catch-up on resources ...
Might be a way to mix it up.
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If the temple was a simple tank and spank then you had a very good team. If boss pulls from groups in early EQ up through maybe PoP were simple tank and spanks then you had a good group. Now if you're talking about rarer spawns like the barkeeper in soul A and some other places those are not really bosses just named NPC's. Most real bosses (Efreeti that drops boots in Sol b, Giant King and mage, jailor etc in permafrost) did require strategy and if your team had it pop on you when you were otherwise engaged with trash, or half health or 2 members AFK you really struggled to finish the encounters.
NoobieDoo said:Too many times I can recall adventuring with my group in EQ1 and VG where we would come across a named/boss mob where it was a straight tank and spank mob. They were found ALL over those two MMOs. Too many times we'd come across a boss and litterally kill it without even thinking. I HOPE Pantheon does away with this.
What about where it naturally makes sense? Why shouldn't Orc Warlord Grraark be a warrior and be limited to just warrior skills and abilities? Sure, he probably has lots of guards and whatnot all around his fortress but when he's the last guy standing, doesn't tank and spank make sense?
Vandraad said:What about where it naturally makes sense? Why shouldn't Orc Warlord Grraark be a warrior and be limited to just warrior skills and abilities? Sure, he probably has lots of guards and whatnot all around his fortress but when he's the last guy standing, doesn't tank and spank make sense?
You are correct. OP had some some bad experiences with crap content.
I don't think every named has to be a special snowflake, but I would like to see a bit more variation. I think even within the confines of a particular class, you could give different spell sets or different strategies to certain mobs without having to give them completely unique skills. Perhaps Dark Priest Melundar has a seething hatred for paladins and clerics, and as such has a tendancy to focus those classes. Perhaps any ability used by those classes receives double threat. That sort of thing could go a long way without having to make each named mob totally unique or turning encounters into Dance dance revolution.
That said, I would totally like to see named mobs of particular classes have a special ability that players could actually add to their skill or spell books. Whether its dropped, can be learned when used upon the player (ala vanguard), or perhaps just a progress bar that slowly fills up each time a player encounters the mob, named mobs could be used to broaden a class' ability repertoire beyond the old Class Trainer system.
Dullahan said:I don't think every named has to be a special snowflake, but I would like to see a bit more variation. I think even within the confines of a particular class, you could give different spell sets or different strategies to certain mobs without having to give them completely unique skills. Perhaps Dark Priest Melundar has a seething hatred for paladins and clerics, and as such has a tendancy to focus those classes. Perhaps any ability used by those classes receives double threat. That sort of thing could go a long way without having to make each named mob totally unique or turning encounters into Dance dance revolution.
That said, I would totally like to see named mobs of particular classes have a special ability that players could actually add to their skill or spell books. Whether its dropped, can be learned when used upon the player (ala vanguard), or perhaps just a progress bar that slowly fills up each time a player encounters the mob, named mobs could be used to broaden a class' ability repertoire beyond the old Class Trainer system.
Some great ideas there. I'd love to see this sort of thing added to the game it would add so much more depth to enounters. Especially when first fighting a named and not being sure of the best way to proceed and then having to play it by ear.
I dont want to get rid of the "Simple" bosses. but if they are direct Tank&Spank then the HP and or Dmg of the mobs should be more than the mobs with tricks making the difficulty overall about the same.
my reasoning behind this is simple, if every mob is a special flower then it lowers the specialness overall.
Aich said:Vandraad said:What about where it naturally makes sense? Why shouldn't Orc Warlord Grraark be a warrior and be limited to just warrior skills and abilities? Sure, he probably has lots of guards and whatnot all around his fortress but when he's the last guy standing, doesn't tank and spank make sense?
You are correct. OP had some some bad experiences with crap content.
xtnpd said:Hell, why not add some deviation in mob spawns - you never know how tough the next mob will be, so you better damn be prepared.
Might be a way to mix it up.
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Cromulent said:Dullahan said:I don't think every named has to be a special snowflake, but I would like to see a bit more variation. I think even within the confines of a particular class, you could give different spell sets or different strategies to certain mobs without having to give them completely unique skills. Perhaps Dark Priest Melundar has a seething hatred for paladins and clerics, and as such has a tendancy to focus those classes. Perhaps any ability used by those classes receives double threat. That sort of thing could go a long way without having to make each named mob totally unique or turning encounters into Dance dance revolution.
That said, I would totally like to see named mobs of particular classes have a special ability that players could actually add to their skill or spell books. Whether its dropped, can be learned when used upon the player (ala vanguard), or perhaps just a progress bar that slowly fills up each time a player encounters the mob, named mobs could be used to broaden a class' ability repertoire beyond the old Class Trainer system.
Some great ideas there. I'd love to see this sort of thing added to the game it would add so much more depth to enounters. Especially when first fighting a named and not being sure of the best way to proceed and then having to play it by ear.
As things stand, if an experienced adventurer see something that looks familiar but has an interesting name they either a) instantly attack it for the phat lewtz it must have or b) run off to find help for this clearly tough monster. It's a bit ridiculous. Just because it has an interesting name? Why is "Jeremy the Orc" likely to be 'better' in any way than the last 200 Orc Drudges? Usually it's for a particular quest you don't have and doesn't need to be special just needs to exist for the quest.
Having said that, yes, if devs are bothering to make 'different' monsters, why not actually make them, you know, different.
I'm liking the ideas that have been prompted by this thread: -
Throw random 'toughness' levels into common monsters. Just, yeah, why not? Doesn't have to be wildly random, just enough to keep you on your toes a bit more.
Throw special skills in that you might even be able to 'collect' in some way. If that orc cast a spell at you perhaps there's a chance it has a spellbook?
Have monsters use items they drop. If you're hoping that Orc Shaman has a fireball wand drop, maybe you should also be worrying he has a fireball wand!
What if the "boss" mobs learned from defeats and evolved thier tactics? ie changes its skills/spells and strategy.
Have players who defeated a boss be flagged for beating that version, and if enough players were in the group/raid force, the boss would change its approach to fighting those players.
as others said, it can be on a case by case basis.
the named Wolf alpha, the leader of its pack, doesnt need to be anymore than bigger and stronger than the rest. perhaps, there is talk of an unnaturally smart alpha wolf, that has an appropraite ability or two that seperate it from the rest - one that perhaps will actually try to disarm an opponent, something like that.
the chieftan of orc camp A may be the same , just bigger and stronger (tank and spank). but the chief of camp B could be more skllied, have a few more abilities, as well as being a little bit stronger than the norm (needs more strategy to defeat). or it could be the rare orc sorcery of some sort.
also in favor of some variation in regular mobs. every level 10 orc warrior doesnt have to have a club, 200 hitpoints, adn use his 'smash' ability once every ten seconds. why not have some that use a sword, with weapon appropriate skills? or some with a shiled that have better defense, or some with a hammer that can stun, whereas the others dont, etc. adds some variety, and strategy "gonna pull these 2 orcs, one has a hammer, make sure he gets CC'd so i dont get stunned' or "that one with the two handed axe will do a lot of damage, CC him first or the damage from the 2-3 of them will be too much" so on and so forth.
there is unlimited potential to make named mobs more interesting. lets hope VR has the inclination to do so :)
I think we should be weary of asking too much from the devs.
I'd rather have a good amount of tank and spank in game, then have very unique but very few named in world.
Dont forget.. named are the drivers for community developed 'camp' spots. I think thats a good thing. Everyone should be able to find a place to camp with a possible named spawn. Named break up the monotony of a grind. Even if they arent very unique in abilities, the goal is to get that unique loot they carry.
That said, yes named with unique abilities are more interesting than tank n spank. Just one unique spell or ability should not be too difficult to implement but also make named 'special' besides the loot.
It would also be nice if named are visually unique.
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Two offshoots from teh topic I wish to also add here:
1) I hope some unique and rare named loot is droppable/sellable/tradeable. I realize this causes issues with classes unable to equip farming loot and making these items/s harder to aquire for those in need.. but this drives economy and community imo.
2) Differentiate named into those which can be found in lore and questlines, and the rest. Obviously all raid named are in lore, so they have a special/unique name. Lore should determine if raid named have a placeholder or spawn on a set timer without placeholder. Non-raid named should also have unique names if they are found in lore or questlines, but may not have a unique name(an elite orc bruiser, or an infected wolf) if they are not special for any other reason then more difficult with unique loot. Non-raid, aka group, named should mostly have placeholders. They should be random spawns in areas expected to be used by groups to grind experience.
I feel that named mobs should be challenging. Anything that isn't doesn't deserve a name unless it is some kind of questmob. I also think that trashmobs is a waste of our time (yeah, slightly off topic). If I wanted to kill tons of incredible easy mobs I would play TERA or another Korean game.
My beef with most MMOs is that they are way too easy and solo centred. Pantheon seems to be different and that is why I am funding it.
Don't pull the punches on us. :)
Nephretiti said:I totally disagree with the OP. Where would we all be today if it weren't for Fippy? There SHOULD be "boss" mobs splattered all over Terminus. Or maybe we shouldn't call them "boss" mobs. Maybe something like "middle-management" mobs...
Yeah, but Fippy was kinda like "Here's your introduction to a slightly tougher, named mob that you will see more of later on in the game", wasn't he? I mean, he was harder to kill than a regular gnoll, but he wasn't going to slaughter the entire Qeynos populace.
I get what the OP is saying, but maybe it's just me in this...I seem to recall running across quite a few badass named mobs in EQ1 and VG. Heck, even EQ2 before they watered that game down. Again, maybe my barbarian shaman was just not that good?
As far as having mobs spawning that were slightly tougher than normal...EQ1 had that already. You could be in a group kicking the snot out of Drolvargs outside KC and in comes this dark blue con rager that just about whoops your butt. Kept me on my toes, that's for sure.
Again, maybe I played a different ruleset server or something, but I seem to remember the game(s) a bit differently then the OP.
loke666 said:I feel that named mobs should be challenging. Anything that isn't doesn't deserve a name unless it is some kind of questmob. I also think that trashmobs is a waste of our time (yeah, slightly off topic). If I wanted to kill tons of incredible easy mobs I would play TERA or another Korean game.
My beef with most MMOs is that they are way too easy and solo centred. Pantheon seems to be different and that is why I am funding it.
Don't pull the punches on us. :)
Exactly. I mean, in most other MMOs these days, you can kill your opponent in 2 to 3 hits. The only game that I have played that was not this way was LOTRO.