BeaverBiscuit said:3) In a game built around groups of people, my group of people could very often force me to travel as fast as possible. I want to enjoy my travel but not at the expense of grouping at the same time. Thus, your point is moot, unless you want to promote small niches of people who play specific ways NEVER grouping with other niches? Travel is a big part of a group, especially, i suspect, in Pantheon. Or more likely the smaller niches will be forced to play with the bigger niches, and now we've come full circle.
This entire concept has been discussed a ton in the fast travel threads. If there's no fast travel, groups are only going to invite people that are within x range of them already. So your point of groups making you mount up is just not true.
When wrath of the lich king launched and everyone in the world spent 5000g on the fast flying mount... I did not. I remained on my slow flying mount (about half speed) and noone cared. It took me twice as long to get to groups, but it didn't matter.
If you get invited to a group, and you tell them you'll be 20 mins... they aren't going to too ask you what method you're using to travel... they will either accept or decline.
Also, as a side note. I really hate the argument for "immersion". None of these games are immersive. Maybe, if you had some VR capabilities you could argue that. All people use the argument about immersion for its to claim something that they don't like isn't real. It's a video game. Just log in and play it... if you actually get lost in the world and forget that your playing a game I think there's a bigger issue at hand than just mounts, or armor switching, or teleports being in the game.
Mounts are one of those eye candy things that people seem to make a huge deal about, perhaps for roleplaying or immersion reasons, that don't really matter very much to me and imo aren't worth many development resources.
If the game has too few of these things I personally consider to be not "worth it", then I definitely understand they won't attract as many players. Yet if they waste time on too many of these eye candy features the opportunity cost of not developing the core foundation of the game could be way too expensive. /shrug
How do you balance making it not fake(summoning a 1500lb horse out of thin air) with not being so realistic that it's too painful to even use (having to stable or losing the animal).
Bill the Pony got lucky. If I park my mule outside a dungeon, it's going to get eaten by a bear. Shadowfax was summoned by a being that was literally a god on (middle) earth. We ain't that.
A mount is in a way like some of the potion/alchemy arguments that have been made. Don't devalue classes in a group based game. Something as simple as a nice strength buff from a passing druid or shaman could make all the difference in the world to a character trying to lug 5 boxes of bronze armor back to town. If we just throw everything on our mount, that bit of relation between people goes away.
There has to be a balance, and some things are too expensive to balance properly.
If there's no good balance, then don't put it in the game!
I'll file this one in the less is more, and much ado about nothing categories.
I love the idea of mounts. If they were implemented in almost every way the same as they were in Vanguard I would be happy. They very much did not shrink the world in Vanguard but augmented it, mostly due to the world size I think.
At low levels you could get a horse and basic gear that was better than wunning but not by huge margin. As you leveled you could buy better and better horses from vendors with better tack, including, if I remember correctly some of the best tack was player made? I would even be down for some tack being raid drops.
What was magical for me though, and I think a lot of people would agree with this, were the special quested mounts from vanguard, they were very good in terms of speed boosts but also the quest chains to acquire them were long and arduous that took you literally all over the world. The unicorn and shadow hound were a huge milestone that people were pround of achieving. Even the racial mounts were fun to get and upgrade. And as far as flying mounts go the Griffon questline was by far one of the most difficult and personally rewarding quest lines that I ever did, requiring plenty of grouping and travel all over the world. the sense of pride I had at finishing that questline and doing the raid to upgrade it was enormous, even for a player that was in a top raiding guild for a while, I really hope that there is something similar to that questline in Pantheon. Then there was the wyvern raid loot mount that required max level raids. I think any owned flying mount should only be achievable at max level and there should definietly be no-fly zones.
I like restrictions on mounts, no-fly zones, no mounts indoors, summon mount time, only out of combat summoning, being dismounted by being hit, that sort of thing.
From what I remember about EQ mounts they were next to useless. The player speed buffs were better and the mounts made it difficult to see when casting etc, stupid horse head got in the way. The only advantage to having one as a caster was you could med/cast standing up, as long as you didnt move. Forgive me if I've remembered this incorrectly, it was a long time ago. I'm also pretty sure they came into the game when everyone, pretty much, had a source of KEI and Kitty Crack, which meant it was easier just to stand without a mount.
I also remember the main disadvantage at the time was due to the lag a raid full of them created. On a 56K dial up which we all used back at launch, 3 dozen horses, plus some pets, meant LD's galour.
For Pantheon, I like the idea of using horse mounts, nothing else, no bears etc. It would be cool if it grew in power with you and became a glorified pet. I'd still want player speed buffs to be king though.
As for realism, I used to play Black Desert, they had the ability to park your horse at a stable. I was forever losing mine, not fun! A few drinks into the evenings groupage, I'd park my horse in a stable, have some fun and then log. By the time I'd woke the next day I had no idea where the bugger was. I had to search every stable to find it.
I would like:
Horse only mounts
Cosmetic items to attach to it and a small speed buff
I would not like:
Any use of stables to park it/lose it
Anything that flys
Anything that isnt a horse
This is just my opinion mind. I'm sure I'll make do with whatever they put in, it's hardly a game breaking thing imo.
Blood
Keno Monster said:Mounts are one of those eye candy things that people seem to make a huge deal about, perhaps for roleplaying or immersion reasons, that don't really matter very much to me and imo aren't worth many development resources.
If the game has too few of these things I personally consider to be not "worth it", then I definitely understand they won't attract as many players. Yet if they waste time on too many of these eye candy features the opportunity cost of not developing the core foundation of the game could be way too expensive. /shrug
How do you balance making it not fake(summoning a 1500lb horse out of thin air) with not being so realistic that it's too painful to even use (having to stable or losing the animal).
Bill the Pony got lucky. If I park my mule outside a dungeon, it's going to get eaten by a bear. Shadowfax was summoned by a being that was literally a god on (middle) earth. We ain't that.
A mount is in a way like some of the potion/alchemy arguments that have been made. Don't devalue classes in a group based game. Something as simple as a nice strength buff from a passing druid or shaman could make all the difference in the world to a character trying to lug 5 boxes of bronze armor back to town. If we just throw everything on our mount, that bit of relation between people goes away.
There has to be a balance, and some things are too expensive to balance properly.
If there's no good balance, then don't put it in the game!
I'll file this one in the less is more, and much ado about nothing categories.
Bingo. Guess we'll all have to wait and see what the VR dev's and testers come up with.
It sounds to me like they're pretty miuch not taking suggestions about mounts at the moment based on Kilsin's comments in the thread, but here's my thoughts.
1. Mounts should burn stamina/mana. If you stop and rest, you can refresh it., but it slowly uses the pool and when the piool is empty, it's no faster than normal running. This saves "the economy" for magical speed buffs. It also saves the shrinkage of the continent because everyone just rides a mount through every zone to get to where they are going as fast as possible.
2. Flying mounts should be extremely rare and hard to get. Like running mounts, they should burn stamina/mana.
3. NO MECHANICAL MOUNTS.... Cars, motorcycles, gliders, balloons, et al.
I don't think that you should have to "artificially" put your mount away for x nubmer of hours to be able to re-use it, but I *DO* think that there should be zones that mounts won't work in, but it has to be zones that make sense. Like not being able wo whip out your horse in a cave.
Bloodfire said:Anything that isnt a horse
I'm always curious behind players reasoning and where they draw the lines.
In a game where were fighting dragons and Rat people, casting fireballs, throwing mystical healing energy at people and reviving them from the dead... you draw the line at mounts other than horses?
Isn't it expected that other races would have had different paths to additional modes of transport. Is it that unthinkable, that an ogre might be able to domesticate a bear. Or that a gnome would be able to create some sort of mechanical machine to ride on?
Porygon said:Bloodfire said:Anything that isnt a horse
I'm always curious behind players reasoning and where they draw the lines.
In a game where were fighting dragons and Rat people, casting fireballs, throwing mystical healing energy at people and reviving them from the dead... you draw the line at mounts other than horses?
Isn't it expected that other races would have had different paths to additional modes of transport. Is it that unthinkable, that an ogre might be able to domesticate a bear. Or that a gnome would be able to create some sort of mechanical machine to ride on?
I can answer that from my perspective...
Prey animals are typically mounts. Horses, emus, yaks, et al. Using a large predator as a mount, you're just as likely to be eaten as large predators don't domesticate well. Complex mechanical devices (mounts and weapons in this case) have no place in a "high fantasy" game in my opinion.
Kalok said:I can answer that from my perspective...
Prey animals are typically mounts. Horses, emus, yaks, et al. Using a large predator as a mount, you're just as likely to be eaten as large predators don't domesticate well. Complex mechanical devices (mounts and weapons in this case) have no place in a "high fantasy" game in my opinion.
I get the "prey" animal aspect. But is it crazy to think that over time, a race of huge humanoid(ogres) could domesticate bears?
Porygon said:Kalok said:I can answer that from my perspective...
Prey animals are typically mounts. Horses, emus, yaks, et al. Using a large predator as a mount, you're just as likely to be eaten as large predators don't domesticate well. Complex mechanical devices (mounts and weapons in this case) have no place in a "high fantasy" game in my opinion.
I get the "prey" animal aspect. But is it crazy to think that over time, a race of huge humanoid(ogres) could domesticate bears?
Given how often even "trained" (I won't use the term domesticated) large predatory animals (i.e. bears, lions, tigers, et al) turn on their trainers/owners and eat them, and given that Ogres, like Humans, Gnomes, Elves, et al, are made of tasty tasty meat, in my opinion, yes. In addition, fictional predatory animals such as Griffons, Hipogriffs, Dragons, et al have a reputation for being proud creatures. It feels like that "pride" wpould stand in the way of them allowing themselves to be domesticated, much less mounted and ridden.
Porygon said:Isn't it expected that other races would have had different paths to additional modes of transport. Is it that unthinkable, that an ogre might be able to domesticate a bear. Or that a gnome would be able to create some sort of mechanical machine to ride on?
Whatever mounts might be introduced, I want to pick one that would be comically undersized for my Ogre.
OakKnower said:Mounts are fine but;
1. Must be realistic (mules, horses, camels, elephants, etc).
2. Mounts don't have levels.
3. Mount speeds are standard and the same across the board; walk, trot, canter, gallop.
4. Require an upkeep (shoeing, etc), feed, water, boarding costs.
To the 1st: yes agree. However don't forget this is a world with magic in it. Not just a real time survival game.
2nd: I disagree. But one could think a bit further than levels. Perhaps riding skills or abilities, or mountstyles (you don't sit on a mule the same way as you would on an elephant for example). Concerning "levels" I'ld say, its not because I can ride a donkey, that I can ride a stalion or if I can ride a workinghorse that I also can ride a fully armoured horse in battle. Just keep thinking outside the box here, the "meaning of level requirements on mounts" might be redefined or entirely differently representated.
Not sure what you mean by standard across the board, but I sure hope that you can have different mountspeeds depending on the surroundings you're crossing (as I mentioned in previous post).
And Yes! to the last. Why not being required to lead your mount to a wateringhole or such when entering a settlement?
Porygon said:Kalok said:I can answer that from my perspective...
Prey animals are typically mounts. Horses, emus, yaks, et al. Using a large predator as a mount, you're just as likely to be eaten as large predators don't domesticate well. Complex mechanical devices (mounts and weapons in this case) have no place in a "high fantasy" game in my opinion.
I get the "prey" animal aspect. But is it crazy to think that over time, a race of huge humanoid(ogres) could domesticate bears?
I agree, it's not crazy in a fantasy game. Looking at their skeletal structure and how domestication works, we're talking about a long evolutionary road before predators would be able to carry load or be mounted. Not to mention the difference of instinct of prey or predator in case of hightened stress. I do see bears being used next to the handler in battle.
Predator animals can be tamed using selective breeding techniques. We have done this with cats and dogs, both predators.
In Russia they are doing this with foxes.
Bears may be more difficult due to not being pack animals, but not because of being predators.
Give a family of intrepid Ogres 100 years and viola: full-sized, living teddy bears.
alephen said:Predator animals can be tamed using selective breeding techniques. We have done this with cats and dogs, both predators.
In Russia they are doing this with foxes.
Bears may be more difficult due to not being pack animals, but not because of being predators.
Give a family of intrepid Ogres 100 years and viola: full-sized, living teddy bears.
Note that there is a difference between breeding animals, taming an animal and domestication of a species. Certainly ingame breeding could be a thing. Perhaps breeding your own pedigre of mounts could be very big. Potentially.
I do see a lot of opportunities in companion pets, but for mounts that's something different. At least for me that is.
As much as I loved collecting mounts in WoW and really liked the ones that were tied to some of the more difficult achievements like the original Amani War Bears. Having also played EQ / p99 I feel they are just not necessary in the style of game VR seem to be going for.
I much prefer needing to buy SoW pots from an alchemist, finding someone to SoW me or travelling somewhere with a Bard it just adds to the community aspect.
As was pointed out above its another system that needs developing and balancing properly and I personally hope it just falls by the wayside as really to me it isn't a core element that the game needs and I think unless they do it REALLY well I only see it taking away from what makes this style of MMORPG so enjoyable.
But who knows maybe they'll prove me wrong.
Yes to mounts! i like what they bring to the game, a cool maunt like a Unicorn, an armored wolf, a bear or a raptor could fit in the High fantasy setting.
I hope maunts are mainly for transport and maybe to use as a storeage while gathering resources. The player will have the option to store hes goods in the saddels, and take some weight off hes char.
I always envy and want to figuer out where to get a specifik mount, when i see another player that has a cool one. This is a good thing and a thing many of us share and enjoy.
No thx to Flying maunts.
BamBam said:Yes to mounts! i like what they bring to the game, a cool maunt like a Unicorn, an armored wolf, a bear or a raptor could fit in the High fantasy setting.
I hope maunts are mainly for transport and maybe to use as a storeage while gathering resources. The player will have the option to store hes goods in the saddels, and take some weight off hes char.
I always envy and want to figuer out where to get a specifik mount, when i see another player that has a cool one. This is a good thing and a thing many of us share and enjoy.
No thx to Flying maunts.
I'm not even sure what you're trying to accomplish here.
alephen said:Predator animals can be tamed using selective breeding techniques. We have done this with cats and dogs, both predators.
In Russia they are doing this with foxes.
Bears may be more difficult due to not being pack animals, but not because of being predators.
Give a family of intrepid Ogres 100 years and viola: full-sized, living teddy bears.
The case you use, dogs and cats, are not bread to be steeds..... Dogsled teams notwithstanding. Dogs and cats are bred to be pets and working animals, not ridden. Same for your Russian foxes.
A prime example... You have to "break" even a "domestic" horse before you can ride it. Given that a horse will buck and throw you, and possibly even stomp you, imagine what that horse would do if it were a predator such as a bear or a lion. Remember.... You are made of tasty tasty meat. Even non-predatory animals (bulls, horses, pigs, deer, etc.) will attack you under the right corcumstances.
