Bluefyre said:Kilsin said:Bluefyre said:I was really just speaking in general. I just think rep grinds are lazy content and thought it was a good time to say so. :p
I am curious as to why you think they are a result of lazy content man?
I actually like them in the sense they promote player interaction and communication, meeting new people with a common goal, decent reward at the end in most cases (even if it's a title and a 1% buff of some sort) and the respect of others who don't have the patience/determination to stick it out etc. and in a game like Pantheon, they actually fit in very well, as they did in EQ and VG. Some of my best memories are of grinding out faction content in VG and other games with friends, PUG members, guildies ;)
Ok let me break what you said down then I will go into detail.
First off. It is lazy content because it takes the least amount of effort by the developers to create and is meant to just keep players occupied.
Now about promoting interaction and communication. That happens naturally regardless of being on a rep grind. You can have the exact same interactions on an epic quest line to get that mount that isn't watching numbers slowly rising.
Respect and prestige. You can get the same respect of others from getting that mount, title, or buff from, again, an e quest line that required teamwork, travel, exploration, and rising above challenges.
Now, with the breakdown out of the way, let me go into some details of exactly what I mean. Let's use Vanguard as it is an example you are familiar with. Can you honestly tell me that grinding out rep to ride a beetle was more fun and prestigious than getting the Shadowhound or Unicorn? What about the Griffon and Wyvern? These were rewards that were way more interesting to obtain as far as I am concerned. Obtaining things from epic quest lines can require all the same interactions as a rep grind, with the same respect and prestige, but are obtained through actual content that can let you experience more challenge, visual stimulation from exploration, and experience more lore on top of the social interaction aspects.
Now I understand that people like different things and I'm not trying to **** on anyone's chosen play style, but I just have a very hard time believing that rep grinds are anything other than quick content to keep players busy or that they are the reason for any interactions that could not be experienced in more challenging and fun ways. I hope I made myself clear as I am typing his after being awake for 24 hours. :-/
Addendum: Let me be clear that I am in fact not asking for the game to be nothing but quest hubs and no grinding. Just saying so that the word quest doesn't trigger anyone and make them jump to conclusions and think I am trying to turn the game into WoW.
I was only asking because experience grinding, mob grinding, quest grinding, faction grinding, camping for named etc. is all slow boring and fairly simple content that serves a much larger purpose, taking issue with one of those over the others is just personal opinion because they all share the same basic features and mechanics, they are all "relatively" simple to implement but they all promote interactions, communication, meeting new people, populate certain areas etc. so as long as the rewards for faction grinds are not out of place with what is being offered with other grinds, it is just another option for the player to take if they choose.
Griffon was an in-depth multi-stage quest line ranging from solo to raid and my all time favourite quest in any game to date, Wyvern was a two kill raid quest (Dresla dropped 1 egg per kill and Kota gave flagged credit for the incubator per kill).
I can't say I liked all of the faction mounts in VG but do I want those ones I dislike removed so others can't choose them? No. That is the beauty of choice and options, I can pick the faction mount I do like (or reward - doesn't have to be a mount, think VG - SoD title and 1% passive buff) and spend my time and effort grinding towards that one, while you may hate mine and have another in mind for yourself or you could ignore them completely and do the Unicorn or Shadowhound quests, both of which were awesome!
My point is, having faction grinds is perfectly fine, you are not forced to do them but they are a viable option for others who do like them and as long as the rewards are minimal and in line with other grinds, there shouldn't be any problem at all but saying that they are lazy and wanting them removed just because you don't like them alienates a whole group of our player base that enjoys that type of content, when the more reasonable approach would be for you to just ignore that content and instead do the quest grind that you enjoy more, in its place.
I am not having a go at you either man, just pointing out a mentality that seems to be ripe in the industry at the moment, that if someone doesn't like something, instead of doing something else in its place and ignoring it, they petition for it to be removed or left out of game development, when a bunch of people who do like it would then miss out on content they enjoy!
Kilsin said:Bluefyre said:Kilsin said:Bluefyre said:I was really just speaking in general. I just think rep grinds are lazy content and thought it was a good time to say so. :p
I am curious as to why you think they are a result of lazy content man?
I actually like them in the sense they promote player interaction and communication, meeting new people with a common goal, decent reward at the end in most cases (even if it's a title and a 1% buff of some sort) and the respect of others who don't have the patience/determination to stick it out etc. and in a game like Pantheon, they actually fit in very well, as they did in EQ and VG. Some of my best memories are of grinding out faction content in VG and other games with friends, PUG members, guildies ;)
Ok let me break what you said down then I will go into detail.
First off. It is lazy content because it takes the least amount of effort by the developers to create and is meant to just keep players occupied.
Now about promoting interaction and communication. That happens naturally regardless of being on a rep grind. You can have the exact same interactions on an epic quest line to get that mount that isn't watching numbers slowly rising.
Respect and prestige. You can get the same respect of others from getting that mount, title, or buff from, again, an e quest line that required teamwork, travel, exploration, and rising above challenges.
Now, with the breakdown out of the way, let me go into some details of exactly what I mean. Let's use Vanguard as it is an example you are familiar with. Can you honestly tell me that grinding out rep to ride a beetle was more fun and prestigious than getting the Shadowhound or Unicorn? What about the Griffon and Wyvern? These were rewards that were way more interesting to obtain as far as I am concerned. Obtaining things from epic quest lines can require all the same interactions as a rep grind, with the same respect and prestige, but are obtained through actual content that can let you experience more challenge, visual stimulation from exploration, and experience more lore on top of the social interaction aspects.
Now I understand that people like different things and I'm not trying to **** on anyone's chosen play style, but I just have a very hard time believing that rep grinds are anything other than quick content to keep players busy or that they are the reason for any interactions that could not be experienced in more challenging and fun ways. I hope I made myself clear as I am typing his after being awake for 24 hours. :-/
Addendum: Let me be clear that I am in fact not asking for the game to be nothing but quest hubs and no grinding. Just saying so that the word quest doesn't trigger anyone and make them jump to conclusions and think I am trying to turn the game into WoW.
I was only asking because experience grinding, mob grinding, quest grinding, faction grinding, camping for named etc. is all slow boring and fairly simple content that serves a much larger purpose, taking issue with one of those over the others is just personal opinion because they all share the same basic features and mechanics, they are all "relatively" simple to implement but they all promote interactions, communication, meeting new people, populate certain areas etc. so as long as the rewards for faction grinds are not out of place with what is being offered with other grinds, it is just another option for the player to take if they choose.
Griffon was an in-depth multi-stage quest line ranging from solo to raid and my all time favourite quest in any game to date, Wyvern was a two kill raid quest (Dresla dropped 1 egg per kill and Kota gave flagged credit for the incubator per kill).
I can't say I liked all of the faction mounts in VG but do I want those ones I dislike removed so others can't choose them? No. That is the beauty of choice and options, I can pick the faction mount I do like (or reward - doesn't have to be a mount, think VG - SoD title and 1% passive buff) and spend my time and effort grinding towards that one, while you may hate mine and have another in mind for yourself or you could ignore them completely and do the Unicorn or Shadowhound quests, both of which were awesome!
My point is, having faction grinds is perfectly fine, you are not forced to do them but they are a viable option for others who do like them and as long as the rewards are minimal and in line with other grinds, there shouldn't be any problem at all but saying that they are lazy and wanting them removed just because you don't like them alienates a whole group of our player base that enjoys that type of content, when the more reasonable approach would be for you to just ignore that content and instead do the quest grind that you enjoy more, in its place.I am not having a go at you either man, just pointing out a mentality that seems to be ripe in the industry at the moment, that if someone doesn't like something, instead of doing something else in its place and ignoring it, they petition for it to be removed or left out of game development, when a bunch of people who do like it would then miss out on content they enjoy!
Yeah I certainly didn't mean to crap on anyones opinion of fun. I just personally think there is always a better way to implement something and like to challenge peoples preconceived notions To make sure they arent ignoring other possibilities that they just may find much more rewarding. ;)
If you guys put in mount rep grinds, I certainly wouldn't demand them removed or anything. I just want to see what I believe is a better way.
Bluefyre said:Kilsin said:Bluefyre said:Kilsin said:Bluefyre said:I was really just speaking in general. I just think rep grinds are lazy content and thought it was a good time to say so. :p
I am curious as to why you think they are a result of lazy content man?
I actually like them in the sense they promote player interaction and communication, meeting new people with a common goal, decent reward at the end in most cases (even if it's a title and a 1% buff of some sort) and the respect of others who don't have the patience/determination to stick it out etc. and in a game like Pantheon, they actually fit in very well, as they did in EQ and VG. Some of my best memories are of grinding out faction content in VG and other games with friends, PUG members, guildies ;)
Ok let me break what you said down then I will go into detail.
First off. It is lazy content because it takes the least amount of effort by the developers to create and is meant to just keep players occupied.
Now about promoting interaction and communication. That happens naturally regardless of being on a rep grind. You can have the exact same interactions on an epic quest line to get that mount that isn't watching numbers slowly rising.
Respect and prestige. You can get the same respect of others from getting that mount, title, or buff from, again, an e quest line that required teamwork, travel, exploration, and rising above challenges.
Now, with the breakdown out of the way, let me go into some details of exactly what I mean. Let's use Vanguard as it is an example you are familiar with. Can you honestly tell me that grinding out rep to ride a beetle was more fun and prestigious than getting the Shadowhound or Unicorn? What about the Griffon and Wyvern? These were rewards that were way more interesting to obtain as far as I am concerned. Obtaining things from epic quest lines can require all the same interactions as a rep grind, with the same respect and prestige, but are obtained through actual content that can let you experience more challenge, visual stimulation from exploration, and experience more lore on top of the social interaction aspects.
Now I understand that people like different things and I'm not trying to **** on anyone's chosen play style, but I just have a very hard time believing that rep grinds are anything other than quick content to keep players busy or that they are the reason for any interactions that could not be experienced in more challenging and fun ways. I hope I made myself clear as I am typing his after being awake for 24 hours. :-/
Addendum: Let me be clear that I am in fact not asking for the game to be nothing but quest hubs and no grinding. Just saying so that the word quest doesn't trigger anyone and make them jump to conclusions and think I am trying to turn the game into WoW.
I was only asking because experience grinding, mob grinding, quest grinding, faction grinding, camping for named etc. is all slow boring and fairly simple content that serves a much larger purpose, taking issue with one of those over the others is just personal opinion because they all share the same basic features and mechanics, they are all "relatively" simple to implement but they all promote interactions, communication, meeting new people, populate certain areas etc. so as long as the rewards for faction grinds are not out of place with what is being offered with other grinds, it is just another option for the player to take if they choose.
Griffon was an in-depth multi-stage quest line ranging from solo to raid and my all time favourite quest in any game to date, Wyvern was a two kill raid quest (Dresla dropped 1 egg per kill and Kota gave flagged credit for the incubator per kill).
I can't say I liked all of the faction mounts in VG but do I want those ones I dislike removed so others can't choose them? No. That is the beauty of choice and options, I can pick the faction mount I do like (or reward - doesn't have to be a mount, think VG - SoD title and 1% passive buff) and spend my time and effort grinding towards that one, while you may hate mine and have another in mind for yourself or you could ignore them completely and do the Unicorn or Shadowhound quests, both of which were awesome!
My point is, having faction grinds is perfectly fine, you are not forced to do them but they are a viable option for others who do like them and as long as the rewards are minimal and in line with other grinds, there shouldn't be any problem at all but saying that they are lazy and wanting them removed just because you don't like them alienates a whole group of our player base that enjoys that type of content, when the more reasonable approach would be for you to just ignore that content and instead do the quest grind that you enjoy more, in its place.I am not having a go at you either man, just pointing out a mentality that seems to be ripe in the industry at the moment, that if someone doesn't like something, instead of doing something else in its place and ignoring it, they petition for it to be removed or left out of game development, when a bunch of people who do like it would then miss out on content they enjoy!
Yeah I certainly didn't mean to crap on anyones opinion of fun. I just personally think there is always a better way to implement something and like to challenge peoples preconceived notions To make sure they arent ignoring other possibilities that they just may find much more rewarding. ;)
If you guys put in mount rep grinds, I certainly wouldn't demand them removed or anything. I just want to see what I believe is a better way.
Yeah, I understand man, thanks for the reply :)
Not sure if it was mentioned but since you are putting mounts in the game...Age of Conan (and probably some other games) made summoning them awesome. Instead of just making some magical motion and watching a cast bar for a second or two...your mount would come running up behind you and stop and you physically got up on your horse and sat on your saddle. I've always loved that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRqwPKy_t-Y
I'm not going to link the video, but I saw one of mounts in Black Desert. Now that is an example of mounts being too fast. They can go rediculously fast when leveled up and could probably blast through any NPC mob camp with ease.
In regards to Conan, that would be really good way to do it and retain immersion.
I'm hoping that mounts are something that is NOT overused initially. I would prefer it to be something that is more difficult to obtain and not practically handed out. Hopefuly mounts are something that has more purpose than just being something to use while travelling i.e. meditation, combat for some classes, maybe? Either way I feel this should be something you need to work toward.
There could even be challenging quest lines at certain levels that would reward certain mounts according to class type. Much like an epic would be.
I think you missed a 'not' there warlored. :p But yeah I agree. They should be something prestigious to own. Maybe an ugly pack donkey or mule with a tiny speed buff, if any, can be rented by anyone to help move items between locations. Other than that, make them be something players are excited to work towards.
Bluefyre said:I think you missed a 'not' there warlored. :p But yeah I agree. They should be something prestigious to own. Maybe an ugly pack donkey or mule with a tiny speed buff, if any, can be rented by anyone to help move items between locations. Other than that, make them be something players are excited to work towards.
Fixed it Bluefyre! thanks!
A rented mount could be worth discussing too, as long as they are kept to as you said "prestigious" then I don't think it'll be an issue.
I'm curious about caravans and whether they're going to be tied in to mounts or not. I still haven't figured out if they are going to be a real in-game object or more of a UI feature like fellowships were in Everquest. With the games heavy focus on situational gear, I could see the need to load up packs of equipment on a beast of burden for long excursions. Then when you move from, say, a tundra to a desert or a swamp, you've got access to the appropriate equipment for the region without carrying it all on your person.
OakKnower said:Mounts are fine but;
1. Must be realistic (mules, horses, camels, elephants, etc).
2. Mounts don't have levels.
3. Mount speeds are standard and the same across the board; walk, trot, canter, gallop.
4. Require an upkeep (shoeing, etc), feed, water, boarding costs.
You lost me at "upkeep" personally. I've never been one to be for "upkeep" costs in game, whether it be housing or whatever. There's already things currency has to be spent on to force me into spending it constantly for a "perk". I'd much rather just pay an outright fee for the use.
You are completely against mounts having different speed ratings?
Im not a "mount hater" like a lot of old school players, I even like the really fast flying ones, lol.
However I also understand a lot of their positions on it. I think an ideal middle ground for mounts is they should definitely be tied to an exploration "achievement" of some sort maybe even certain level requirement, crafting node tracking should be disabled, and do not have it where they fit in your backback to summon in and out whenever you want (theyre not pokemon). I read this a while ago and someone mentioned it earlier but stabled mounts would be an ideal middle ground. If you want to mount travel, go to your nearest stable which should be available in every town, mount up, go where you want and get off. Once youre off it goes back to the nearest stable. Kind of like how they work in some Final Fantasy games. That goes for both flying and ground mounts. They could even put in some purchasable 'feed' (gold sink?) in case you want to have them around for a few minutes for a quick detour (finding crafting node).
I wouldnt charge the player for their own mounts but automated taxi should, of course.
Well I am for them if they make them meaningful. Speed is one thing but have them jump to Ludacris speed is insane. A horse is a horse not a Ducati and should be treated as such. Questing for mounts should be difficult. I remember in WoW have to fight tooth and nail for my Netherdrake on a PvP server for weeks. That was a great day and I never changed my mount.
I was thinking about raising the mounts. You get a wolf pup, colt or dragon and it should take some time to get them able to be ridden.
Quests should be tough and the mounts should reflect the difficulty of the quest.
The emersion should not be broken with out of genre mounts. WoW is a great example of what not to do.
Crated mounts should be included like the flying carpets in EQ2 for example.
Limit the mounts quantity in the game.
Combat on the mounts should be possible. I do believe we had the in Vanguard for a small period of time. Might have been in beta though.
Gear for mount absolutely should be included. Crafters would love this.
Just ideas after reading the above posts.
Ox
Hmmmm....
They don't get me super excited. I am an explore kind of guy that does not mind time to travel as being a part of the daily journey.
Mounts would be cool in the sense that they could be stationed outside a dungeon, perhaps could carry repair kits, extra inventory or resources. Would have to be earned for sure, not just an easy purchase. I would never want to see them void of danger by being able to stroll thru dangerous areas. For example they desummon if you get aggro...
I can see them more for the longer stretches of non-dangerous terrain where roads are clearly present etc. But as soon as you got off the main travelways, you could risk it being desummoned.
This is more in line with my likes...
Warlored said:OakKnower said:Mounts are fine but;
1. Must be realistic (mules, horses, camels, elephants, etc).
2. Mounts don't have levels.
3. Mount speeds are standard and the same across the board; walk, trot, canter, gallop.
4. Require an upkeep (shoeing, etc), feed, water, boarding costs.
You lost me at "upkeep" personally. I've never been one to be for "upkeep" costs in game, whether it be housing or whatever. There's already things currency has to be spent on to force me into spending it constantly for a "perk". I'd much rather just pay an outright fee for the use.
You are completely against mounts having different speed ratings?
Well, upkeep is a cost of owning a mount, right? Upkeep will keep inflation in check. Upkeep will keep crafters employed...
There will most likely be upkeep & mainenance or armor & weapons too... (make friends with a GM smith).
Mekada Posted:
Ox, I love your idea of raising mounts. From vanity pet to mount maybe?
Also, I'm curious to know which wow mount didn't fit wow's setting in your opinion. I can't think of any right now
I absolutely thought the motorcycles were a genre breaker. I know the gnomes were a clever bunch but that was over the top. Also, the annoying sounds. In PvP the were KOS for me. Regardless of level.
My original thoughts on raising a mount was towards a dragon. You find an egg and have to raise it. I would love getting into a scrap and the old saying of “say hello to my little friend” would come to play as the rather large beast hovers behind you. In my book that would be a something to see.
Just ideas.
Ox
Hieromonk said:Ahhh... don't believe everything brad says, the community can always change his mind. : )
Plus, when the time comes i can prove how item repair is a 3-fold benifit to the game.
Oh it is a huge benefit to the game economy wise but as of right now its a no go. I made so much plat in EQ2 selling repair kits for such a long time
Personally, I think mounts should be rare.
I recall one neat newbie quest in EQ1, where- like at level 5- (? it was low) the obtaining of the quest piece also gave you a ghost bridle that summoned a horse for one time only, meant for you to ride back to the quest giver - fast! almost fater than SoW- and poofed after use.
It was class specific, and it could not be repeated but I think it could not be repeated because of the trivial loot code in place at the time.
I'm late to the party, but wanted to add my quick 2 cents.
I hope that mounts are really really hard to get. Either they cost a fortune or a great deal of time spent either questing or factioning in order to get. I would go so far to say that I hope they are not introduced right away. Let us have some time dealing with what we can do on our own two feet first.....make us seek out a druid for a sow etc. When I get a mount I want to REALLY appreciate it, have it be a real prestige item, and hard won. If you have a cash shop and offer mounts, I will buy one because I am weak and have more money than brains so please save me from myself and don't doooooo eeeeet! ;)
Now, How about this? IF a mount is to be had, said mount would have to be tamed. Only one mount per player, player has to choose which mount- and the "taming" of said mount is like a tradeskill, or questline with tradeskill like advancements. The farther away the beasty is from your homelands, the longer and harder it is to tame for a mount.
So, like if you were a certain racial caster in a highly snooty and intelligent-thinking city, that has lizards and War boars in the environs. A Lizard and war boar would be easier mounts to take through the taming process. If, however you are adventuring with a Dwarf, and you explore a far away area that has black panthers- that the caster adores!- The black panther would take a long time for the caster to tame. If, in lamenting with the caster and the Dwarf heads to the casters home town with the caster and sees and ADORES! the war boars, the dwarf could choose the boar to tame, but it would not be as easy as the beasties in his home town, but not be as hard as the panther is to the caster- because of location.
The only advantage may be to nature-following classes (druids and rangers for instance) that would have a slight advantage to taming, relative to their home lands. So, there would be a possibility that those classes may be sporting mounts, prior to others- untill the druid wished she had seen the OTTERS! in the evil dark Myr place, first. So maybe as a mechanic, if you wanted to change mounts, you had to sacrifice the one you had tamed (I mean, truly sacrifice- knives and all)- lose whatever Faction/influence ( instant KOS of the beasty and its kind? maybe forever), and have to go through the taming process again for the more desired beasty.
I am not a big fan of mounts, but that is only because I was used to legged playing.
When Mounts came along I felt they were cumbersome and wierd. When Cheap mount came along, I felt they were cumbersom-er and clunky. I admit it may have been because I was not as used to them as I was to my legged habits- but I still preffered my two legs.