I didn't craft in EQ. I then resolved to craft in every other MMO I've played. I've been largely disappointed. Here's why:
Crafting while leveling
It always seems to me that to get something useful at any given level I need to make a major crafting left turn - stop adventuring, etc... IF there is something useful from crafting while you level.
Crafting at max
Sort of more of the same. If I'm a tailor for example, and want to use that to make really good bags for myself. Quite often in these games I have more than enough money to buy the bag from someone else and am left with the following decision... spend hours farming mats to make those bags, or go buy the bags, knowing that I will regenerate the money used just by playing the game.
Summing it up
It doesn't feel worth stopping adventuring to me in order to advance crafting while I level (at least in mmo's like WoW, Rift, etc...) - and at max, I end up feeling like anything I could get isn't worth investing the time in doing. I would ultimatey be happy with a crafting system that I felt brought me value at max level. I would be thrilled if there were a crafting system that I felt brought me value leveling it while I leveled my avatar. That does, at least to me, also mean that at least some gear (for folks who choose professions that craft gear) should be best in game... with maybe that being a limiting factor (it's a piece of gear that is best in game if YOU craft it)
In terms of how important I think it is. I know that while my experiences are as listed above, there are players who absolutely LIVE for crafting- and crafting does quite a bit to drive in game econonomies. Crafting is serious business... and important to an MMO.
Crafting can be fun diversion. In EQ one of my very early great memories is completing a set of tattered leather armor for my barb warrior :) In VG I made leatherworking my tradeskill, and maxed it out. I'm kind of torn on how a crafting mechanic should work. On the one hand I liked VG's crafting mini game. On the other hand, EQ's simple combine x, y and z also worked well enough (the difficult part was often finding the components). In the end, I would hope for a system that doesn't artificially slow down skill progress.
Also hopefully there won't be another Coldain Prayer Shawl quest however that forces you to get high skills in every tradeskill. Tradeskilling should be something you do because you enjoy it, not because its required for a quest. Also, a game that encourages interaction should allow buying the stuff you need from "main" crafters who make a living from their trade.
I think crafting is of vital importance, especially if you give crafting great depth. What i mean by this (and i am sure some of you will have seen my ramblings else where), is give crafting a path of its own taht means players can enjoy just taht aspect. let them become known server wide for their ability and let them become sought after.
here is a link to another post i put up (while feeling somewhat frivolous) but my message is still there
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1316/end-game-crafting-content
the angle i was heading down is that good top end crafters should have the ability to tailor craft items for people based on a pathway of dedicated learning.
Crafting done well - should give people the option to choose crafting over flat out adventuring. they should use adventuring to increse there crafting and they should bec ome guild assets.
I feel as though crafting, is generally created as a subset to the game, in so far as many items that are craftabe are never sought after and never utilised. i would like to see (and this is not developed in my own mind fully), crafters have basic abilty at the beginning. they utilise basic components/ingredients and they utilise basic skills. eg a blacksmith works basic metal and creates a sword. no magical ability just a + dmg . with skill comes aboity to hone an edge, with training comes abilty to imbue sword with power, with expert training comes abiilty to utilise particular items of great importance....
if gear is not dropping off mobs left right and centre (you know the +5 ubah stat sword dropping off a rat!) and gear last with you over multiple levels. then gear crafting will be critical and could be very fun.
consumable crafting food/potions (if not solely a shaman thing) etc can also be fun. i seem to enjoy cooking in all games. however, i want more depth, i want little things like recipes being bound to language, so if i want to learn it i need to work for it and understand the required language.
sorry its late and a bit rambling
may come back and edit...
Crafting is a clear NEED for an MMORPG!
But those days, crafting has been kinda 'obsolet'. You do questrows (like EQ2 these days) and get your skills up to max, in no time. Then you able to craft stuff, but they not worth to use or sell em, cause drops/questrewards are way higher, then what you able to craft. OR, the material you need, is super-hard to get, like in raid instances. Crafting should be HARD to learn, but NOT unfair (like you need 32 Players, to loot/harvest a superduper rare item in a Raid-Dungeon). of course material should be accessable easly, when it comes to basic stuff, like 'bagpacks' or 'general cloth' (like a nice dress or a good looking smoking for special events). On the other hand, if you want to improve your gear (like a robe, a sword, a staff or whatever), the components should be semi-rare/hard to get. Imo material should be accessable to every player, even those, who not in 1st-kill-ruling-the-server-raidforces. It should give you (the crafter) a little advance to non-crafters (like i said before, upgrading your gear, for ex.). Also crafting should become not to easy. Back then, WoW has been released (dunno know, how its today), you just hit a button, to combine stuff. The crafting system should be some sort of a mixup of EQ (pray for it-feeling) and V:SoH-Like (you need to take care, what you doing, not just hitting a button and produce 10 of X).
tl;dr: Hard, but fair!
Wandidar said:I didn't craft in EQ. I then resolved to craft in every other MMO I've played. I've been largely disappointed. Here's why:
Crafting while leveling
It always seems to me that to get something useful at any given level I need to make a major crafting left turn - stop adventuring, etc... IF there is something useful from crafting while you level.
Crafting at max
Sort of more of the same. If I'm a tailor for example, and want to use that to make really good bags for myself. Quite often in these games I have more than enough money to buy the bag from someone else and am left with the following decision... spend hours farming mats to make those bags, or go buy the bags, knowing that I will regenerate the money used just by playing the game.
Summing it up
It doesn't feel worth stopping adventuring to me in order to advance crafting while I level (at least in mmo's like WoW, Rift, etc...) - and at max, I end up feeling like anything I could get isn't worth investing the time in doing. I would ultimatey be happy with a crafting system that I felt brought me value at max level. I would be thrilled if there were a crafting system that I felt brought me value leveling it while I leveled my avatar. That does, at least to me, also mean that at least some gear (for folks who choose professions that craft gear) should be best in game... with maybe that being a limiting factor (it's a piece of gear that is best in game if YOU craft it)
In terms of how important I think it is. I know that while my experiences are as listed above, there are players who absolutely LIVE for crafting- and crafting does quite a bit to drive in game econonomies. Crafting is serious business... and important to an MMO.
Yeah, good points Wand, if companies don;t put a decent amount of effort into crafting to make it meaningful, it will always feel tacked on and gimmicky. Did you play or craft in VG by any chance? It had a pretty cool in-depth crafting system that worked really well, it still needed work and some silly decisions later on, made it pointless (selling crafted items in the cash shop ruined the crafting sphere) but early on it was pretty awesome and meaningful.
I also agree it is pretty important o have in game and get right :)
Obliquity said:Crafting needs to have value if its in game.
Alot of games have crafting but the items created are not used. I think a better approach would be to have only crafted items that will be needed by players.
Cooking for food would be used, Alchemy for potions would be used and so on.
Yeah, when crafting is implemented, it needs to be meaningful and done well so it can help with player interaction, the economy and the overall experience of having something to do other than adventuring. Cooking can be pretty cool too if done well and integrated into the crafting system.
Sarim said:Crafting can be fun diversion. In EQ one of my very early great memories is completing a set of tattered leather armor for my barb warrior :) In VG I made leatherworking my tradeskill, and maxed it out. I'm kind of torn on how a crafting mechanic should work. On the one hand I liked VG's crafting mini game. On the other hand, EQ's simple combine x, y and z also worked well enough (the difficult part was often finding the components). In the end, I would hope for a system that doesn't artificially slow down skill progress.
Also hopefully there won't be another Coldain Prayer Shawl quest however that forces you to get high skills in every tradeskill. Tradeskilling should be something you do because you enjoy it, not because its required for a quest. Also, a game that encourages interaction should allow buying the stuff you need from "main" crafters who make a living from their trade.
Haha nice! Yeah, I don't like being forced to do anything like that either, especially mixing my spheres unless I want to!
Oh, and:
COOPERATION is important here! So lets say, the Tailor needs a better needle or a better sewingkit... So, this kinda items should not be sold by NPC-Merchants. This items should be 'Crafters Only Made". Like a Smith making needles, a woodworker doing new kits (to realize that one, he maybe need components from the smith, like 'good nails').
This is another thing, to make players become an 'community'. Mabye opens up a whole new level of content? like crafter-guilds? crafters can share their knowledge, build up crafter-guild-houses (only accessable to crafters), sharing their material, knowledge, help... that would be awesome!
Tuhart said:Not fused on crafting, seems to be a necessary evil sometimes and pulls you away from the main game of exploring and adventuring.
Yeah, I don't ever think crafting should be forced onto anyone but I do like a well thought out, in-depth and meaningful crafting sphere for those who enjoy it :)
Narben4 said:I think crafting is of vital importance, especially if you give crafting great depth. What i mean by this (and i am sure some of you will have seen my ramblings else where), is give crafting a path of its own taht means players can enjoy just taht aspect. let them become known server wide for their ability and let them become sought after.
here is a link to another post i put up (while feeling somewhat frivolous) but my message is still there
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1316/end-game-crafting-content
the angle i was heading down is that good top end crafters should have the ability to tailor craft items for people based on a pathway of dedicated learning.
Crafting done well - should give people the option to choose crafting over flat out adventuring. they should use adventuring to increse there crafting and they should bec ome guild assets.
I feel as though crafting, is generally created as a subset to the game, in so far as many items that are craftabe are never sought after and never utilised. i would like to see (and this is not developed in my own mind fully), crafters have basic abilty at the beginning. they utilise basic components/ingredients and they utilise basic skills. eg a blacksmith works basic metal and creates a sword. no magical ability just a + dmg . with skill comes aboity to hone an edge, with training comes abilty to imbue sword with power, with expert training comes abiilty to utilise particular items of great importance....
if gear is not dropping off mobs left right and centre (you know the +5 ubah stat sword dropping off a rat!) and gear last with you over multiple levels. then gear crafting will be critical and could be very fun.
consumable crafting food/potions (if not solely a shaman thing) etc can also be fun. i seem to enjoy cooking in all games. however, i want more depth, i want little things like recipes being bound to language, so if i want to learn it i need to work for it and understand the required language.
sorry its late and a bit rambling
may come back and edit...
Yeah, nice points Narben and I did read that thread too when it was posted, some good posts in there.
lyrina said:Crafting is a clear NEED for an MMORPG!
But those days, crafting has been kinda 'obsolet'. You do questrows (like EQ2 these days) and get your skills up to max, in no time. Then you able to craft stuff, but they not worth to use or sell em, cause drops/questrewards are way higher, then what you able to craft. OR, the material you need, is super-hard to get, like in raid instances. Crafting should be HARD to learn, but NOT unfair (like you need 32 Players, to loot/harvest a superduper rare item in a Raid-Dungeon). of course material should be accessable easly, when it comes to basic stuff, like 'bagpacks' or 'general cloth' (like a nice dress or a good looking smoking for special events). On the other hand, if you want to improve your gear (like a robe, a sword, a staff or whatever), the components should be semi-rare/hard to get. Imo material should be accessable to every player, even those, who not in 1st-kill-ruling-the-server-raidforces. It should give you (the crafter) a little advance to non-crafters (like i said before, upgrading your gear, for ex.). Also crafting should become not to easy. Back then, WoW has been released (dunno know, how its today), you just hit a button, to combine stuff. The crafting system should be some sort of a mixup of EQ (pray for it-feeling) and V:SoH-Like (you need to take care, what you doing, not just hitting a button and produce 10 of X).
tl;dr: Hard, but fair!
Yes, absolutely mate, I agree :)
One other thing I think about crafting - and I say this realizing that it would require a LOT of extra development effort... but I think it, so I'll say it.
It has always bugged me in MMO's that crafting, no matter how good the system - was the same system across professions... such that you are making different stuff, but doing the same thing to make that different stuff.
The one exception to this is often, of all things, fishing.
I've always thought it would be cool if each profession had different mechanics such that the profession actually felt like you were doing the craft. Fishing in WoW - as much as I really don't like fishing in WoW - one of the best (if simplest) implementations of making a profession like reality. Fishing in WoW is: Cast a line in water, and wait.... decide whether you actually feel bored or relaxed during the wait, and then, HOPEFULLY catch a fish. EXACTLY like reality!
How you could implement that idea in a deep crafting system - I don't know... but it would be rather cool for an alchemist crafting profession to feel rather "mad scientist" while a tailoring profession felt more "artsy crafty" - if that makes any sense at all.
In regard to the Vanguard system. I (unfortunately) didn't play VG for long stretches - not becuase I didn't like it. I kept trying to draw friends to it, they kept insisting on playing other games... so I followed friends. But I did dabble with the VG crafting system. I will say that of all of the systems I've tried, I really liked that one best. It was a mentally engaging little mini-game within the broader scope of the game, and felt rewarding to do.
Wandidar said:One other thing I think about crafting - and I say this realizing that it would require a LOT of extra development effort... but I think it, so I'll say it.
It has always bugged me in MMO's that crafting, no matter how good the system - was the same system across professions... such that you are making different stuff, but doing the same thing to make that different stuff.
The one exception to this is often, of all things, fishing.
I've always thought it would be cool if each profession had different mechanics such that the profession actually felt like you were doing the craft. Fishing in WoW - as much as I really don't like fishing in WoW - one of the best (if simplest) implementations of making a profession like reality. Fishing in WoW is: Cast a line in water, and wait.... decide whether you actually feel bored or relaxed during the wait, and then, HOPEFULLY catch a fish. EXACTLY like reality!
How you could implement that idea in a deep crafting system - I don't know... but it would be rather cool for an alchemist crafting profession to feel rather "mad scientist" while a tailoring profession felt more "artsy crafty" - if that makes any sense at all.
In regard to the Vanguard system. I (unfortunately) didn't play VG for long stretches - not becuase I didn't like it. I kept trying to draw friends to it, they kept insisting on playing other games... so I followed friends. But I did dabble with the VG crafting system. I will say that of all of the systems I've tried, I really liked that one best. It was a mentally engaging little mini-game within the broader scope of the game, and felt rewarding to do.
Yeah, this is something a lot of games get wrong by just copying/pasting multiple professions with different named actions/items but it is basically the same thing, this annoys me too lol
The direct answer, luv crafting, absolutely expect it to be in game due to the fact that you mentioned it, and I think crafting is vital to the interdependence of the community and the backbone of a player driven economy. Crafted items need to have value compared to loot and raid drops.
Real answer. I pretty much agree with everyone else. Crafting needs to be engaging, requiring strategy and preparation just like adventuring. I should have the proper gear when I head to the forge versus the loom. If I am crafting common pieces I might throw my weight at it and be done, but if I am trying to craft a rare item I need to pay more attention, gather the highest quality materials, and focus on my end goal.
The VG system is a good foundation, but additional thought needs to go into ensuring balance between adventuring and crafting. One of the things I find frustrating in a lot of systems is that too often by the time I can craft a decent item my character has outleveled its usefulness. More often then not I end up crafting just to vendor sell or hand over for repetitive work orders meaning only my alts benefit from my dedication to the profession. Another frustrating thing is when a rare crafting component for a level 20 item is only found in a level 40 zone.
Crafting should be a journey that not everyone completes. Crafting should evolve as a player levels, forcing them to make decisions on specializations, skills, etc. Perhaps a player starts off as a metalsmith, and then specializes in either weapons or armor, then further specializes into a specific set. It should take a significant invest of time and resources to obtain the highest tier of crafting at end game. This is to ensure the economy doesn't get flooded with crafted items negating their value.
As mentioned in other posts crafters of high level should be considered an asset to protect. Guilds should want to invest in leveling up one or two players in each of the crafting spheres. Just like spells, I think there should be crafting trainers hidden throughout the world that will teach specility recipes, skills, or even alternate skins. Faction based crafting and unique crafting stations would also add to the depth of the system
Azotate said:The direct answer, luv crafting, absolutely expect it to be in game due to the fact that you mentioned it, and I think crafting is vital to the interdependence of the community and the backbone of a player driven economy. Crafted items need to have value compared to loot and raid drops.
Real answer. I pretty much agree with everyone else. Crafting needs to be engaging, requiring strategy and preparation just like adventuring. I should have the proper gear when I head to the forge versus the loom. If I am crafting common pieces I might throw my weight at it and be done, but if I am trying to craft a rare item I need to pay more attention, gather the highest quality materials, and focus on my end goal.
The VG system is a good foundation, but additional thought needs to go into ensuring balance between adventuring and crafting. One of the things I find frustrating in a lot of systems is that too often by the time I can craft a decent item my character has outleveled its usefulness. More often then not I end up crafting just to vendor sell or hand over for repetitive work orders meaning only my alts benefit from my dedication to the profession. Another frustrating thing is when a rare crafting component for a level 20 item is only found in a level 40 zone.
Crafting should be a journey that not everyone completes. Crafting should evolve as a player levels, forcing them to make decisions on specializations, skills, etc. Perhaps a player starts off as a metalsmith, and then specializes in either weapons or armor, then further specializes into a specific set. It should take a significant invest of time and resources to obtain the highest tier of crafting at end game. This is to ensure the economy doesn't get flooded with crafted items negating their value.
As mentioned in other posts crafters of high level should be considered an asset to protect. Guilds should want to invest in leveling up one or two players in each of the crafting spheres. Just like spells, I think there should be crafting trainers hidden throughout the world that will teach specility recipes, skills, or even alternate skins. Faction based crafting and unique crafting stations would also add to the depth of the system
Yeah, I agree, VG wasn;t perfect by any means but it was a good foundation to build on and I also agree on the importance of crafting at end game, it should be vital to the economy and be a respected/meaningful profession.
I have learned to hate crafting. Mostly because in almost every game I've done it in, it seems to be this grindy, repetitive chore that's just sort of bolted on as an afterthought. I never understood the people who would only ever craft - to me it would be like going to visit this great museum and then hanging out in the gift shop.
That said, if done right, I think it could be great. I've heard SWG had a pretty good crafting system, although I've never personally experienced it. But like adventurers, it would be nice for crafters to have some way of distinguishing themselves, so that crafting actually matters, vs. a system where anyone who just invests enough time to endure the grind can be just as good a crafter as anyone else. Giving skilled crafters a way to imbue or bolster dropped gear would also be pretty neat, and would create a working relationship between adventurers and crafters.
Kilsin said:How much do you like crafting in MMORPGs, is crafting something you expect to be in-game and how important do you think it is for the game even if you don't craft? :)
Crafting is great, and I think it's healthy for the community and economy to have some crafting options. There are many players that enjoy it. If crafting was omitted at release, I would personally be OK with that. I'm here for the group play, adventuring with friends, exploring the world. If crafting does get implemented, I don't want to be forced to craft. Please please don't force me into crafting. Relying on other crafters for certain things is OK with me, as long as I'm not forced to be the one doing the crafting.
Incoming rant:
Since I don't normally craft (unless forced) in MMO's, I will do my best to give my opinion on crafted stat gear from the perspective of the CONSUMER.
In the spirit of Pantheon (group play, interdependacy, etc) I think it would be a mistake to allow crafted stat gear to exceed or even parlevel with adventure-earned gear slot-for-slot. I feel this way for a number of specific reasons. This is a hot topic for those passionate about crafting, so I will try to be clear in my reasoning.
Buying premade gear that is as good as or better than adventuring gear from a hypothetical auction house should not replace hours and hours of group adventuring. From the adventurer viewpoint, parlevel crafted gear shifts the focus away from searching for named mobs because you need the gear to simply grinding exp. For me, the sense of reward from adventuring for a drop I was after is greater than simply clicking "buy" in an auction house window. For this reason, I feel the best gear should be obtained through a shared adventuring experience with others -- be it grouping or raiding. Crafted stat gear should have a role, just not as the best stuff you can get. I could see it as filling in the gaps in adventuring-earned gear.
While crafters will love the idea of making crafted gear the best stuff out there, it's ultimately at the expense of those who prefer to adventure. We saw this in EQ2, where crafted gear is massively better than dropped gear in all cases except for raid gear and a few other exceptions. Crafted gear was expensive, naturally, because it was the best stuff you could get pre-raid and the rare materials to make it were hard to come by. As a standard adventurer making your way through the game, you likely couldnt afford crafted gear and was left at a substantial disadvantage to your peers. The solution to this was to pause your adventuring in order to farm materials and level crafting to make it yourself, hope to join a where crafters pass out gear for free, or participate in RMT. Once you're finally decked out in uber crafted gear, you soon realize that none of the drops you're getting while adventuring are an upgrade. You're left with the disappointing realisation that dropped gear no longer matters. Only how long until you can pony up for the next tier of crafted gear. This really really soured me, and felt like the devs allowed this imbalance at the expense of the adventuring crowd (thats the main point of the game, right?) in favor of the crafting crowd. I dont want to see Pantheon go down this path.
Thats not to say that crafters shouldnt be allowed to create some uber stat items... just not full sets of 110% uber crafted gear that trumps everything else out there.
As a consumer, I would like to see crafted food, potions, a reagent for a raid gear patten, augmentations or adornments for gear, and other consumables. Weapons and armor with appropriate levels of power are OK as well.
If crafting will produce the best non-raid level gear then I'll train up all crafting skills on an alt and make my own stuff. Why overpay for someone else's work when I can do it myself? Wholesale vs retail. If, for some reason, I would decide not to raise the crafting skills it isn't like I'd go buy what I need off the market. I'd go find a guild crafter, find what materials are needed for the item I want, get them, and have the guild craft it for free.
No matter which the crafting situation goes, nobody profits off me.
Sarim said:Tradeskilling should be something you do because you enjoy it, not because its required for a quest. Also, a game that encourages interaction should allow buying the stuff you need from "main" crafters who make a living from their trade.
This is a really good jumping off point for how I feel about crafting. I really liked Vanguards crafting a lot. I don't think people should be prohibited from a quality crafting mechanic in an MMO. If you don't like to craft, then don't craft. Go out and adventure. But if you do like to craft, and there's no crafting or limited, useless crafting, youre hosed.
I like the idea of top boss gear dropping from mobs, but I really don't like it when a mercenary drops a sword that is arbitrarily better than any player crafted sword. Why do NPCs have a magical ability to make an item that no player ever could? Why can't someone choose to spend most of their time smithing, because renowned on the server as a quality smith, and set up a small shop where people travel from all over to buy their swords?
Maybe some people fantasize about running around with a sword, maybe some people fantasize about being the guy who made the sword. I don't see anything wrong with that at all.
I remember people who used to sit in the EC tunnles and run a mini casino based on /random. Nothing wrong with that. How you spend your time in game is your business, and while I don't think top raid gear should be rivaled by crafted gear, I'd like a level 20 crafted sword to at least be as good as a level 20 dropped sword, and if the crafted sword has more hours and components going into it, maybe even it's better than the drop. If you don't want to craft the sword, then go adventure, save up your plat, then go buy the sword from the guy who made it. That's a much healthier economy in my opinion. An economy needs producers and consumers. Nothing wrong with being a pirate the sells the loot of your slain foes, but I like diversity in the world.
Also, as a side note, I really liked the concept of player crafted boats and houses in VG. They were expensive time sinks that gave fun things to do in the game other than quest/kill, but didn't really give a huge advantage to people who wanted to do it over people who wanted to go adventure.
I agree with Arksien, crafting should be on an equal footing with adventuring. Why should my 10 hours of crafting be less valuable than your 10 hours of adventuring? I do both, keeping my crafters level appropriate for my adventurers typically, my characters use both dropped items and crafted, I don't see why one should exclude the other.
Personally I do expect it to be in game, and I'll be disappointed if it's not in at launch.
Im conflicted on this issue. Personally, I dont like it. And I think I could be ok with an MMO that had no crafting or economy even really (thats just me). But on the other side I can see how it adds to the world and can be used to balance out agaisnt the constant dungeons and raids. I also wouldnt want to deprive anyone that really enjoys these type of things. Heck I don like crafting or gathering a lot, but I love to fish in a game. Loved it every since Zelda!
So On a scale of 1 to 10:
Personally: 1
Objectively: 10
Yea I know Im an odd one.