Crafting Importance if properly implemented - 10. And I'll discuss my thoughts on implementation below:
Dekaden said: Since I don't normally craft (unless forced) in MMO's, I will do my best to give my opinion on crafted stat gear from the perspective of theCONSUMER.
In the spirit of Pantheon (group play, interdependacy, etc) I think it would be a mistake to allow crafted stat gear to exceed or even parlevel with adventure-earned gear slot-for-slot. I feel this way for a number of specific reasons. This is a hot topic for those passionate about crafting, so I will try to be clear in my reasoning.
Buying premade gear that is as good as or better than adventuring gear from a hypothetical auction house should not replace hours and hours of group adventuring
Chimerical said: I agree with Arksien, crafting should be on an equal footing with adventuring. Why should my 10 hours of crafting be less valuable than your 10 hours of adventuring? I do both, keeping my crafters level appropriate for my adventurers typically, my characters use both dropped items and crafted, I don't see why one should exclude the other.
Personally I do expect it to be in game, and I'll be disappointed if it's not in at launch.
I'm more of an adventurer than a crafter, and I agree with many of your points Dekaden. But, I disagree that crafting gear couldn't be viable and/or equal (or perhaps even slightly better depending on skill/drops/risk/time commitment). It's all in the implementation. The issue is that crafting "shouldn't" be easier to complete than adventuring, which it is in 99% of MMOs. The issue is the "risk" involved with crafting. Failure of completing an item isn't risk. However, if in order to craft the item that would be the equalivalent of the adventure sphere dropped sword then crafting could be a viable alternative. And, there's a few ways you could get around having this system being cheated (I'm sure people more creative than me could think of even better), which could alleviate your fears of trivializing adventuring content, while adding relevance and significant depth to gameplay (crafting).
1. You either have forges within the dungeons themselves that you would use to forge the weapon from that zones crafted materials. Perhaps, in order for this to avoid being cheated, clicking on the forge would "spawn" a Goblin Blacksmith, etc. that would be agro the Player smith. And, the Blacksmith would only spawn one time per zone-in (so if you died and tried again he would spawn again). But, a group couldn't continue to click for exp.
2. You could have a mob that dropped a Goblin Smithing hammer that would have to be used and it would be "No Drop" in order for a crafter to use the goblin forge.
3. You could have a forge be similar to a "Proc" in EQ that your will is not sufficient to command this forge unless you're at X level range.
4. You could have the player "have to" have knowledge of goblins and their tools/machines in order for the player to be able to use the forge. Not sure how it would be implemented, but faction/language/drop based? Maybe there would be plans and/or design info stored in a bookshelf deep within the dungeon (Also no-drop). Perhaps having to learn the goblin language in order to read the tome.
5. You make certain crafted materials No drop so a level 1 couldn't purchase all the materials (with perhaps adding a slight boost to the crafted item as you would "have" to get it yourself versus being able to purchase an adventuring item).
6. Dungeon based crafting gear has to be "rare" - (as or more rare than adventuring) you can't water down crafting by allowing the gear to flood the market. It would have to be tested in alpha/beta to see how crafting gear would flood the market versus adventuring and tweak accordingly.
7. A combination of all of the above - to make crafting "truly difficult."
8. For the everyday - non game breaking crafting, you could have the world nodes/drops, etc. (think banded armor in EQ) where it wouldn't trivialize adventuring content, but would still be "good enough" to a stop-gap for adventuring gear and/or higher level crafting gear.
Yes, it does require the crafter to be an adventurer also, but, that's the only way crafting wouldn't trivialize adventuring content. Where we agree completely is that you can't have a level 1 crafting gear for a level 50 from materials purchased with no risk.
And, to your point Chimerical (and Arksien). 10 hours of crafting should be less valuable when there is no inherent risk to your gameplay. Everquest's success was based almost entirely on the risk vs. reward mechanic. If you offer rewards with no risk (crafting) then it trivializes all content. And, raising a skill to 200 and having the "risk" of failing a combine isn't risk. If crafting was equal to adventuring, I'd want my or some equivalent above scenario that adds "risk" to be present.
As an aside, I did like some of the unique playermade items such as ships in VG which could be implemented without "breaking" the adventuring sphere.
*edited - added additional items
Kilsin said:How much do you like crafting in MMORPGs, is crafting something you expect to be in-game and how important do you think it is for the game even if you don't craft? :)
Everybody wants loot, not everybody wants to craft. Therefore crafting should be a complimentary method to equip a character. The primary way to get loot should be via taking it off of your enemy's corpse. To me, there are few things less satisfying than winning some epic encounter and looting crafting items. I don't want to kill a named goblin magi and get a recipe. It's such a letdown. That's not to say there shouldn't be useful and wonderful crafted items. Crafting should be a useful part of the economy.
And for people who reply "everybody wants loot but not everybody wants to adventure" I would say, well, you're playing an adventure game and not a crafting game(I hope).
Chimerical said:I agree with Arksien, crafting should be on an equal footing with adventuring. Why should my 10 hours of crafting be less valuable than your 10 hours of adventuring?
It's really simple. You were not at risking of dying one single time during your 10 hours of crafting. Risk vs reward. Why should the crafting reward be the same as the adventuring reward?
Krixus said:Chimerical said:I agree with Arksien, crafting should be on an equal footing with adventuring. Why should my 10 hours of crafting be less valuable than your 10 hours of adventuring?
It's really simple. You were not at risking of dying one single time during your 10 hours of crafting. Risk vs reward. Why should the crafting reward be the same as the adventuring reward?
If they want it to be equal, then when they fail a crafting attempt, they 1) die, 2)tools are destroyed, 3) potentially lose crafting XP and possibly crafting levels just like adventurers losing levels when they die. We'll then have all crafting stations down in dungeons and you can only use the station in zones appropriate for the level of the items you are crafting (a safe-ish area, but nonetheless not in a comfy convenient town). Oh, then throw in the inability to bind there so when they die they have a corpse run. Finally, gaining a crafting level takes the same equivalent man hours as a full group can gain a level. If a group is 6 people and it takes them 4 real hours to gain 1 level (that being 24 man-hours) then to gain the equivalent crafting level would take 24 man-hours. Happy clicking.
Toss all that in and yea, crafting can be as valuable as adventuring.
Vandraad said:Krixus said:Chimerical said:I agree with Arksien, crafting should be on an equal footing with adventuring. Why should my 10 hours of crafting be less valuable than your 10 hours of adventuring?
It's really simple. You were not at risking of dying one single time during your 10 hours of crafting. Risk vs reward. Why should the crafting reward be the same as the adventuring reward?
If they want it to be equal, then when they fail a crafting attempt, they 1) die, 2)tools are destroyed, 3) potentially lose crafting XP and possibly crafting levels just like adventurers losing levels when they die. We'll then have all crafting stations down in dungeons and you can only use the station in zones appropriate for the level of the items you are crafting (a safe-ish area, but nonetheless not in a comfy convenient town). Oh, then throw in the inability to bind there so when they die they have a corpse run. Finally, gaining a crafting level takes the same equivalent man hours as a full group can gain a level. If a group is 6 people and it takes them 4 real hours to gain 1 level (that being 24 man-hours) then to gain the equivalent crafting level would take 24 man-hours. Happy clicking.
Toss all that in and yea, crafting can be as valuable as adventuring.
I'm not a crafter - but I'm going to play devil's advocate for you.
1) If the crafter needs to be present when the raid level boss you got your best piece of gear from is killed to get a gear pattern
2) If the crafter needs to be present when mats from mobs / bosses during raids are killed
3) If the crafter then needs to spend a massive time investment above and beyond that to get their crafting skill up high enough to make the piece of gear
Well then, one could make the argument that their investment in time and risk far exceeds yours, and the loot they get should then exceed what you can get just because you were present for that kill. (Assumes similar restrictions on gear - so crafter is making no drop gear just like you got no drop gear directly from the mob)
Raidan said:Crafting Importance if properly implemented - 10. And I'll discuss my thoughts on implementation below:
Dekaden said: Since I don't normally craft (unless forced) in MMO's, I will do my best to give my opinion on crafted stat gear from the perspective of theCONSUMER.
In the spirit of Pantheon (group play, interdependacy, etc) I think it would be a mistake to allow crafted stat gear to exceed or even parlevel with adventure-earned gear slot-for-slot. I feel this way for a number of specific reasons. This is a hot topic for those passionate about crafting, so I will try to be clear in my reasoning.
Buying premade gear that is as good as or better than adventuring gear from a hypothetical auction house should not replace hours and hours of group adventuring
Chimerical said: I agree with Arksien, crafting should be on an equal footing with adventuring. Why should my 10 hours of crafting be less valuable than your 10 hours of adventuring? I do both, keeping my crafters level appropriate for my adventurers typically, my characters use both dropped items and crafted, I don't see why one should exclude the other.
Personally I do expect it to be in game, and I'll be disappointed if it's not in at launch.
I'm more of an adventurer than a crafter, and I agree with many of your points Dekaden. But, I disagree that crafting gear couldn't be viable and/or equal (or perhaps even slightly better depending on skill/drops/risk/time commitment). It's all in the implementation. The issue is that crafting "shouldn't" be easier to complete than adventuring, which it is in 99% of MMOs. The issue is the "risk" involved with crafting. Failure of completing an item isn't risk. However, if in order to craft the item that would be the equalivalent of the adventure sphere dropped sword then crafting could be a viable alternative. And, there's a few ways you could get around having this system being cheated (I'm sure people more creative than me could think of even better), which could alleviate your fears of trivializing adventuring content, while adding relevance and significant depth to gameplay (crafting).
1. You either have forges within the dungeons themselves that you would use to forge the weapon from that zones crafted materials. Perhaps, in order for this to avoid being cheated, clicking on the forge would "spawn" a Goblin Blacksmith, etc. that would be agro the Player smith. And, the Blacksmith would only spawn one time per zone-in (so if you died and tried again he would spawn again). But, a group couldn't continue to click for exp.
2. You could have a mob that dropped a Goblin Smithing hammer that would have to be used and it would be "No Drop" in order for a crafter to use the goblin forge.
3. You could have a forge be similar to a "Proc" in EQ that your will is not sufficient to command this forge unless you're at X level range.
4. You could have the player "have to" have knowledge of goblins and their tools/machines in order for the player to be able to use the forge. Not sure how it would be implemented, but faction/language/drop based? Maybe there would be plans and/or design info stored in a bookshelf deep within the dungeon (Also no-drop). Perhaps having to learn the goblin language in order to read the tome.
5. You make certain crafted materials No drop so a level 1 couldn't purchase all the materials (with perhaps adding a slight boost to the crafted item as you would "have" to get it yourself versus being able to purchase an adventuring item).
6. Dungeon based crafting gear has to be "rare" - (as or more rare than adventuring) you can't water down crafting by allowing the gear to flood the market. It would have to be tested in alpha/beta to see how crafting gear would flood the market versus adventuring and tweak accordingly.
7. A combination of all of the above - to make crafting "truly difficult."
8. For the everyday - non game breaking crafting, you could have the world nodes/drops, etc. (think banded armor in EQ) where it wouldn't trivialize adventuring content, but would still be "good enough" to a stop-gap for adventuring gear and/or higher level crafting gear.
Yes, it does require the crafter to be an adventurer also, but, that's the only way crafting wouldn't trivialize adventuring content. Where we agree completely is that you can't have a level 1 crafting gear for a level 50 from materials purchased with no risk.
And, to your point Chimerical (and Arksien). 10 hours of crafting should be less valuable when there is no inherent risk to your gameplay. Everquest's success was based almost entirely on the risk vs. reward mechanic. If you offer rewards with no risk (crafting) then it trivializes all content. And, raising a skill to 200 and having the "risk" of failing a combine isn't risk. If crafting was equal to adventuring, I'd want my or some equivalent above scenario that adds "risk" to be present.
As an aside, I did like some of the unique playermade items such as ships in VG which could be implemented without "breaking" the adventuring sphere.
*edited - added additional items
Great implementation ideas. I could see eye to eye with you if the best crafted gear was actually rare. Stop-gap normal crafted gear would be just fine. I dont like going to the auction house in random_MMO_01 and seeing pages and pages of "rare" crafted gear that is more uber than anything you could adventure for. Your crafting ideas would appear to twart the flooding of better-than-adventured goods into the market, which I really appreciate.
To elaborate, here is the crux of my position: I will likely play a tank when Pantheon rolls out. I will seek the best gear I can wear. I am forced to do this because my role is extremely gear-centric. If I can't take hits, the group doesnt progress. What I dont want to see is an auction house full of easily obtainable (to the consumer) "rare" crafted gear that is better than adventured gear at all levels. We saw this in EQ2, a crafters paradise. Since I'm not a crafter, I am forced to purchase said gear so I can be effective as a tank and then proceed to loot NONE of the adventuring gear that drops because what I have is the better. The fact that my class is so gear-centric has forced my hand and has kept me from enjoying a major part of the game: hunting for gear. Rinse and repeat with new "rare" crafted gear being purchased and equipped every 10 levels or so. And yep, that's the gear upgrade experience for a tank. Pretty uninspired and expensive. With adventuring gear, at least I can go obtain it for myself. As a non-crafter, that would be my preference. Not being forced into crafting is one thing, but being forced to rely on crafters for all of my gear because its better is another.
Making adventuring loot trivial by implementing overpowered crafted items is my fear. Its also a valid and legitimate fear, as this scenario has happened in other games with the biggest offender being EQ2.
Dekaden said:Raidan said:Crafting Importance if properly implemented - 10. And I'll discuss my thoughts on implementation below:
Dekaden said: Since I don't normally craft (unless forced) in MMO's, I will do my best to give my opinion on crafted stat gear from the perspective of theCONSUMER.
In the spirit of Pantheon (group play, interdependacy, etc) I think it would be a mistake to allow crafted stat gear to exceed or even parlevel with adventure-earned gear slot-for-slot. I feel this way for a number of specific reasons. This is a hot topic for those passionate about crafting, so I will try to be clear in my reasoning.
Buying premade gear that is as good as or better than adventuring gear from a hypothetical auction house should not replace hours and hours of group adventuring
Chimerical said: I agree with Arksien, crafting should be on an equal footing with adventuring. Why should my 10 hours of crafting be less valuable than your 10 hours of adventuring? I do both, keeping my crafters level appropriate for my adventurers typically, my characters use both dropped items and crafted, I don't see why one should exclude the other.
Personally I do expect it to be in game, and I'll be disappointed if it's not in at launch.
I'm more of an adventurer than a crafter, and I agree with many of your points Dekaden. But, I disagree that crafting gear couldn't be viable and/or equal (or perhaps even slightly better depending on skill/drops/risk/time commitment). It's all in the implementation. The issue is that crafting "shouldn't" be easier to complete than adventuring, which it is in 99% of MMOs. The issue is the "risk" involved with crafting. Failure of completing an item isn't risk. However, if in order to craft the item that would be the equalivalent of the adventure sphere dropped sword then crafting could be a viable alternative. And, there's a few ways you could get around having this system being cheated (I'm sure people more creative than me could think of even better), which could alleviate your fears of trivializing adventuring content, while adding relevance and significant depth to gameplay (crafting).
1. You either have forges within the dungeons themselves that you would use to forge the weapon from that zones crafted materials. Perhaps, in order for this to avoid being cheated, clicking on the forge would "spawn" a Goblin Blacksmith, etc. that would be agro the Player smith. And, the Blacksmith would only spawn one time per zone-in (so if you died and tried again he would spawn again). But, a group couldn't continue to click for exp.
2. You could have a mob that dropped a Goblin Smithing hammer that would have to be used and it would be "No Drop" in order for a crafter to use the goblin forge.
3. You could have a forge be similar to a "Proc" in EQ that your will is not sufficient to command this forge unless you're at X level range.
4. You could have the player "have to" have knowledge of goblins and their tools/machines in order for the player to be able to use the forge. Not sure how it would be implemented, but faction/language/drop based? Maybe there would be plans and/or design info stored in a bookshelf deep within the dungeon (Also no-drop). Perhaps having to learn the goblin language in order to read the tome.
5. You make certain crafted materials No drop so a level 1 couldn't purchase all the materials (with perhaps adding a slight boost to the crafted item as you would "have" to get it yourself versus being able to purchase an adventuring item).
6. Dungeon based crafting gear has to be "rare" - (as or more rare than adventuring) you can't water down crafting by allowing the gear to flood the market. It would have to be tested in alpha/beta to see how crafting gear would flood the market versus adventuring and tweak accordingly.
7. A combination of all of the above - to make crafting "truly difficult."
8. For the everyday - non game breaking crafting, you could have the world nodes/drops, etc. (think banded armor in EQ) where it wouldn't trivialize adventuring content, but would still be "good enough" to a stop-gap for adventuring gear and/or higher level crafting gear.
Yes, it does require the crafter to be an adventurer also, but, that's the only way crafting wouldn't trivialize adventuring content. Where we agree completely is that you can't have a level 1 crafting gear for a level 50 from materials purchased with no risk.
And, to your point Chimerical (and Arksien). 10 hours of crafting should be less valuable when there is no inherent risk to your gameplay. Everquest's success was based almost entirely on the risk vs. reward mechanic. If you offer rewards with no risk (crafting) then it trivializes all content. And, raising a skill to 200 and having the "risk" of failing a combine isn't risk. If crafting was equal to adventuring, I'd want my or some equivalent above scenario that adds "risk" to be present.
As an aside, I did like some of the unique playermade items such as ships in VG which could be implemented without "breaking" the adventuring sphere.
*edited - added additional items
Great implementation ideas. I could see eye to eye with you if the best crafted gear was actually rare. Stop-gap normal crafted gear would be just fine. I dont like going to the auction house in random_MMO_01 and seeing pages and pages of "rare" crafted gear that is more uber than anything you could adventure for. Your crafting ideas would appear to twart the flooding of better-than-adventured goods into the market, which I really appreciate.
To elaborate, here is the crux of my position: I will likely play a tank when Pantheon rolls out. I will seek the best gear I can wear. I am forced to do this because my role is extremely gear-centric. If I can't take hits, the group doesnt progress. What I dont want to see is an auction house full of easily obtainable (to the consumer) "rare" crafted gear that is better than adventured gear at all levels. We saw this in EQ2, a crafters paradise. Since I'm not a crafter, I am forced to purchase said gear so I can be effective as a tank and then proceed to loot NONE of the adventuring gear that drops because what I have is the better. The fact that my class is so gear-centric has forced my hand and has kept me from enjoying a major part of the game: hunting for gear. Rinse and repeat with new "rare" crafted gear being purchased and equipped every 10 levels or so. And yep, that's the gear upgrade experience for a tank. Pretty uninspired and expensive. With adventuring gear, at least I can go obtain it for myself. As a non-crafter, that would be my preference. Not being forced into crafting is one thing, but being forced to rely on crafters for all of my gear because its better is another.
Making adventuring loot trivial by implementing overpowered crafted items is my fear. Its also a valid and legitimate fear, as this scenario has happened in other games with the biggest offender being EQ2.
Some good ideas in here. I think it's important to clarify I assume that any mats from crafting should come in the adventuring world, not be bought at a vendor (except for early training items). I see no reason why a sword made from mats obtained in a level 20 zone can't create a sword equal to or slightly greater than the ones dropping in said zone. This can be especially true if crafted items have a variable range of turnout (slightly worse, same, slightly better) with you narrowing the gap based on crafting skill. I also see no reason someone should need to go get the mats themselves if they can afford to pay for the mats, because clearly their coin didn't come from thin air, they earned it somehow. This adds a new layer to the economy. Maybe you give me a discount on the sword if I bring some of the mats from my own adventuring. This is literally how the economy works in real life, and should world in a game.
On that note: to the people saying "how is if fun/fair if I can just buy the gear from a crafter?" Ok...where is the money going to come from? Are you expecting to just be rolling in the dough from your magic money making tree? You're going to get that money from, duh gee I don't know, ADVENTURING! If you spend 10 hours and a nice sword drops, great! That should be in the game. But if you spend 10 hours and no sword drops, but now you have some plat clinking around, great! You earned the right to buy a sword from a guy who makes them. And if the guy who made the sword spends 10 hours making the sword, "great!" For a similar time investment, he made less money than you because he had to spend money to make money, you didn't. Oh, and the "but he spent 10 hours making a sword and now he can just go easy level!" Um, I sure hope not. I sure hope this game is hard even with slightly better gear. If one person spends 10 hours adventuring and buys a sword at the end, and another guy spends 10 hours collecting mats and making a sword and now he can do the content you did in 10 hours in 7 hours, he still invested 17 hours for your 10. And if he never goes to level, and only sits and makes swords, and buys mats off money made from selling other swords, charging a markup for the time, just like real life, why do you care? If they spend 100% of their time crafting that's not your business, nor does it affect you in any negative way. It's not like you're in competition with that person. I'll address the "you're not in competition" but further down.
I think this is what Raidin was getting at with the adding time and risk to crafting. Where a problem starts to crop up is when the mats to make items are too cheap, too easy to come by, or combines work 100% of the time. With the right variables, you can put risk into crafting. Also, I'm not a big crafter, I prefer adventuring. However, like Amsai, I respect the objective need of crafters for immersion, and have always liked having my "go to guys" in game. In EQ, I actually did basically zero crafting, but I sure knew who made the good bow/arrows!
And as for:
"Oh but then they didn't go risk death!" Yeah I don't see that as a good argument against crafting because they also didn't risk life. Their combat skills did not go up. Their level did not go up. They did not lose exp but they did not gain it either. That's comparing apples to oranges, and a non starter argument to me.
And to the people saying "I'm fine with crafting as long as a level 20 crafted sword is lesser than a level 20 adventure sword," that doesn't work. If crafted items are innately inferior, they're worthless. If crafting will be in this game, it needs worth. Brad has said he's considering making crafting items 100% different categories than drop, and I think that would be sad. Where are all the world drop swords coming from? Why can no one seem to make those items but everyone has them? Why can players make consumables but not NPCs? It doesn't make any sense, really breaks immersion, and after seeing such a good system done so well in Vanguard, I really think it's a cop out not to put the effort in here.
I'll still play the game and probably enjoy it without crafting, but in the back of my mind I'll go "well its ok, but it's still not the greatest MMO of all time with such a major part of social interaction and inter player dependability missing."
Crafting is important as there are serious, committed crafters and because it is a nice "I don't want to actually explore and kill today so I think I'll dabble in whatevercraft" break from my normal activities in the game.
As far as opinions on how and what implementation would be desired, I lean towards Raidan and Arksien posts (which are very thorough imo).
edit - Wasn't it EQ2 which originally had a crafting scheme where one could actually die during a crafting session? Either way, the original crafting sphere was a game within itself with nice graphics and interaction.
My thinking on the level based debate is that the crafting sphere and adventuring sphere should be different and separate.
Crafters should gain levels because they would adventure with their guilds/friends for resources, and they were able to rise in crafting because guildies also supplied resources to them.
Arksien said:
Some good ideas in here. I think it's important to clarify I assume that any mats from crafting should come in the adventuring world, not be bought at a vendor (except for early training items). I see no reason why a sword made from mats obtained in a level 20 zone can't create a sword equal to or slightly greater than the ones dropping in said zone. This can be especially true if crafted items have a variable range of turnout (slightly worse, same, slightly better) with you narrowing the gap based on crafting skill. I also see no reason someone should need to go get the mats themselves if they can afford to pay for the mats, because clearly their coin didn't come from thin air, they earned it somehow. This adds a new layer to the economy. Maybe you give me a discount on the sword if I bring some of the mats from my own adventuring. This is literally how the economy works in real life, and should world in a game.
On that note: to the people saying "how is if fun/fair if I can just buy the gear from a crafter?" Ok...where is the money going to come from? Are you expecting to just be rolling in the dough from your magic money making tree? You're going to get that money from, duh gee I don't know, ADVENTURING! If you spend 10 hours and a nice sword drops, great! That should be in the game. But if you spend 10 hours and no sword drops, but now you have some plat clinking around, great! You earned the right to buy a sword from a guy who makes them. And if the guy who made the sword spends 10 hours making the sword, "great!" For a similar time investment, he made less money than you because he had to spend money to make money, you didn't. Oh, and the "but he spent 10 hours making a sword and now he can just go easy level!" Um, I sure hope not. I sure hope this game is hard even with slightly better gear. If one person spends 10 hours adventuring and buys a sword at the end, and another guy spends 10 hours collecting mats and making a sword and now he can do the content you did in 10 hours in 7 hours, he still invested 17 hours for your 10. And if he never goes to level, and only sits and makes swords, and buys mats off money made from selling other swords, charging a markup for the time, just like real life, why do you care? If they spend 100% of their time crafting that's not your business, nor does it affect you in any negative way. It's not like you're in competition with that person. I'll address the "you're not in competition" but further down.
I think this is what Raidin was getting at with the adding time and risk to crafting. Where a problem starts to crop up is when the mats to make items are too cheap, too easy to come by, or combines work 100% of the time. With the right variables, you can put risk into crafting. Also, I'm not a big crafter, I prefer adventuring. However, like Amsai, I respect the objective need of crafters for immersion, and have always liked having my "go to guys" in game. In EQ, I actually did basically zero crafting, but I sure knew who made the good bow/arrows!
And as for:
"Oh but then they didn't go risk death!" Yeah I don't see that as a good argument against crafting because they also didn't risk life. Their combat skills did not go up. Their level did not go up. They did not lose exp but they did not gain it either. That's comparing apples to oranges, and a non starter argument to me.
And to the people saying "I'm fine with crafting as long as a level 20 crafted sword is lesser than a level 20 adventure sword," that doesn't work. If crafted items are innately inferior, they're worthless. If crafting will be in this game, it needs worth. Brad has said he's considering making crafting items 100% different categories than drop, and I think that would be sad. Where are all the world drop swords coming from? Why can no one seem to make those items but everyone has them? Why can players make consumables but not NPCs? It doesn't make any sense, really breaks immersion, and after seeing such a good system done so well in Vanguard, I really think it's a cop out not to put the effort in here.
I'll still play the game and probably enjoy it without crafting, but in the back of my mind I'll go "well its ok, but it's still not the greatest MMO of all time with such a major part of social interaction and inter player dependability missing."
Your dismissal of risk vs reward is "a non starter" as well. If you think the risk of a combine not working, or getting the lower range stats on the final item is in any way comparable to the risk of wiping on a dungeon crawl, I don't know what to say beyond "to me that is absurd".
Do you think you should be able to get the crafting components needed to make an "equal or slightly better" item from mobs that don't drop the item?
Do you understand how badly it devaules adventuring when someone can farm crafting materials and make something better at a given level? Why risk getting charmed and your whole group wiping trying to get a rubicite bracer when you can just kill common mobs in the courtyard for crafting materials?
And if not, if the answer is to put rare crafting materials on those rare mobs, then why not just have the mob drop the loot you want in the first place? There are tons and tons of games out there where crafting is on par if not foremost, what games out there give the loot experience that EQ did?
IMO:
1. You should be able to farm crafting materials to make items that fill in gaps but are NOT superior to looted items.
2. There should be the rare crafting item(red/white dragon scale or whatever) needed to complete some epic crafting quest.
3. Crafting should be a good part of the economy (and the social dynamic that comes from it), especially in the lower levels.
4. Crafting should be a valuable, valid method for characters to fill out their gear, especially in the lower levels.
5. Crafting components should drop from higher level mobs than the equivalent looted item would drop from. You should not be able to kill level 20 mobs for crafting components to make a weapon that is equivalent in power to one you could loot at level 22 or whatever. That destroys the backbone of this kind of game, rare, hard to get loot that makes you feel amazing. If you're level 25 and your group has spent 2 days in the zone and you still don't have that sword and the group is moving on and you've looted a bunch of crafting compoments, by all means be able to take those to a crafter and trade him or her to make you a weapon to fill in that gap, or make it yourself. But you should not be ahead of the curve, or even on it, by crafting. Again, that undermines the core of what makes this kind of game great (to me). Few things are less satisfying to me than completing a quest or a hard encounter and getting a freaking crafting component. Ugh.
6. Crafting should fill niches. Fletching for rangers, light weight armor for monks at certain levels, etc. It should not be a main source of equipping a character for the the length of the game.
Banded armor in EQ is a great example of a success story, but plate armor was too expensive and didn't offer enough benefit for anyone to craft it. The old world crafting economy basically stopped at banded until enchanters started making jewelry. Perhaps there should be more of those banded examples in Pantheon, but as a general rule crafted items should not be superior to level equivalent looted items in the vast majority of cases.
Clearly we have a difference in philosophy, and that's cool. That's part of what makes games great. But I want to get the rare drop from the rare mob and feel that rush of accomplishment, power and satisfaction. Crafting can never give me that.
Krixus said:Arksien said:
Some good ideas in here. I think it's important to clarify I assume that any mats from crafting should come in the adventuring world, not be bought at a vendor (except for early training items). I see no reason why a sword made from mats obtained in a level 20 zone can't create a sword equal to or slightly greater than the ones dropping in said zone. This can be especially true if crafted items have a variable range of turnout (slightly worse, same, slightly better) with you narrowing the gap based on crafting skill. I also see no reason someone should need to go get the mats themselves if they can afford to pay for the mats, because clearly their coin didn't come from thin air, they earned it somehow. This adds a new layer to the economy. Maybe you give me a discount on the sword if I bring some of the mats from my own adventuring. This is literally how the economy works in real life, and should world in a game.
On that note: to the people saying "how is if fun/fair if I can just buy the gear from a crafter?" Ok...where is the money going to come from? Are you expecting to just be rolling in the dough from your magic money making tree? You're going to get that money from, duh gee I don't know, ADVENTURING! If you spend 10 hours and a nice sword drops, great! That should be in the game. But if you spend 10 hours and no sword drops, but now you have some plat clinking around, great! You earned the right to buy a sword from a guy who makes them. And if the guy who made the sword spends 10 hours making the sword, "great!" For a similar time investment, he made less money than you because he had to spend money to make money, you didn't. Oh, and the "but he spent 10 hours making a sword and now he can just go easy level!" Um, I sure hope not. I sure hope this game is hard even with slightly better gear. If one person spends 10 hours adventuring and buys a sword at the end, and another guy spends 10 hours collecting mats and making a sword and now he can do the content you did in 10 hours in 7 hours, he still invested 17 hours for your 10. And if he never goes to level, and only sits and makes swords, and buys mats off money made from selling other swords, charging a markup for the time, just like real life, why do you care? If they spend 100% of their time crafting that's not your business, nor does it affect you in any negative way. It's not like you're in competition with that person. I'll address the "you're not in competition" but further down.
I think this is what Raidin was getting at with the adding time and risk to crafting. Where a problem starts to crop up is when the mats to make items are too cheap, too easy to come by, or combines work 100% of the time. With the right variables, you can put risk into crafting. Also, I'm not a big crafter, I prefer adventuring. However, like Amsai, I respect the objective need of crafters for immersion, and have always liked having my "go to guys" in game. In EQ, I actually did basically zero crafting, but I sure knew who made the good bow/arrows!
And as for:
"Oh but then they didn't go risk death!" Yeah I don't see that as a good argument against crafting because they also didn't risk life. Their combat skills did not go up. Their level did not go up. They did not lose exp but they did not gain it either. That's comparing apples to oranges, and a non starter argument to me.
And to the people saying "I'm fine with crafting as long as a level 20 crafted sword is lesser than a level 20 adventure sword," that doesn't work. If crafted items are innately inferior, they're worthless. If crafting will be in this game, it needs worth. Brad has said he's considering making crafting items 100% different categories than drop, and I think that would be sad. Where are all the world drop swords coming from? Why can no one seem to make those items but everyone has them? Why can players make consumables but not NPCs? It doesn't make any sense, really breaks immersion, and after seeing such a good system done so well in Vanguard, I really think it's a cop out not to put the effort in here.
I'll still play the game and probably enjoy it without crafting, but in the back of my mind I'll go "well its ok, but it's still not the greatest MMO of all time with such a major part of social interaction and inter player dependability missing."
Your dismissal of risk vs reward is "a non starter" as well. If you think the risk of a combine not working, or getting the lower range stats on the final item is in any way comparable to the risk of wiping on a dungeon crawl, I don't know what to say beyond "to me that is absurd".
Do you think you should be able to get the crafting components needed to make an "equal or slightly better" item from mobs that don't drop the item?
Do you understand how badly it devaules adventuring when someone can farm crafting materials and make something better at a given level? Why risk getting charmed and your whole group wiping trying to get a rubicite bracer when you can just kill common mobs in the courtyard for crafting materials?
And if not, if the answer is to put rare crafting materials on those rare mobs, then why not just have the mob drop the loot you want in the first place? There are tons and tons of games out there where crafting is on par if not foremost, what games out there give the loot experience that EQ did?
IMO:
1. You should be able to farm crafting materials to make items that fill in gaps but are NOT superior to looted items.
2. There should be the rare crafting item(red/white dragon scale or whatever) needed to complete some epic crafting quest.
3. Crafting should be a good part of the economy (and the social dynamic that comes from it), especially in the lower levels.
4. Crafting should be a valuable, valid method for characters to fill out their gear, especially in the lower levels.
5. Crafting components should drop from higher level mobs than the equivalent looted item would drop from. You should not be able to kill level 20 mobs for crafting components to make a weapon that is equivalent in power to one you could loot at level 22 or whatever. That destroys the backbone of this kind of game, rare, hard to get loot that makes you feel amazing. If you're level 25 and your group has spent 2 days in the zone and you still don't have that sword and the group is moving on and you've looted a bunch of crafting compoments, by all means be able to take those to a crafter and trade him or her to make you a weapon to fill in that gap, or make it yourself. But you should not be ahead of the curve, or even on it, by crafting. Again, that undermines the core of what makes this kind of game great (to me). Few things are less satisfying to me than completing a quest or a hard encounter and getting a freaking crafting component. Ugh.
6. Crafting should fill niches. Fletching for rangers, light weight armor for monks at certain levels, etc. It should not be a main source of equipping a character for the the length of the game.
Banded armor in EQ is a great example of a success story, but plate armor was too expensive and didn't offer enough benefit for anyone to craft it. The old world crafting economy basically stopped at banded until enchanters started making jewelry. Perhaps there should be more of those banded examples in Pantheon, but as a general rule crafted items should not be superior to level equivalent looted items in the vast majority of cases.
Clearly we have a difference in philosophy, and that's cool. That's part of what makes games great. But I want to get the rare drop from the rare mob and feel that rush of accomplishment, power and satisfaction. Crafting can never give me that.
See bold underlined sections above. This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Adventuring is a major major portion of this game can be extremely devalued if crafted items are too powerful and plentiful. I agree they should not be the main way in equipping your character, but rather act in a supporting role, filling in gaps as needed. I would be OK with stop-gap gear as Raidan mentioned, and the super uber items Krixus mentioned using very rare drops (dragon scales, etc).
Some don't enjoy the act of crafting, but crafted items absolutely effect everyone, and even more so to those classes that are very gear-dependant. Expectations that the tank needs to be on the bleeding edge of the gear spectrum becomes exceedingly expensive if I'm expected to buy crafted gear. Crafters don't want to give their goods away for free and no one wants to group with an undergeared tank, period. In a game where reputation matters, this quickly becomes a problem, and tells for groups will start to fade. Its at this stage that desperate players will turn to RMT, or other players that have already turned to RMT will have driven prices up and out of reach for the average adventurer. The temptation to RMT for gear isnt very strong when you can simply get a group and go after the items you need, which is what you would expect in this game. Actually playing the game should provide all I need, with crafted items filling in the cracks and gaps.
Wandidar said:I'm not a crafter - but I'm going to play devil's advocate for you.
1) If the crafter needs to be present when the raid level boss you got your best piece of gear from is killed to get a gear pattern
2) If the crafter needs to be present when mats from mobs / bosses during raids are killed
3) If the crafter then needs to spend a massive time investment above and beyond that to get their crafting skill up high enough to make the piece of gear
Well then, one could make the argument that their investment in time and risk far exceeds yours, and the loot they get should then exceed what you can get just because you were present for that kill. (Assumes similar restrictions on gear - so crafter is making no drop gear just like you got no drop gear directly from the mob)
All three of those options were present in EQ1, the result of which was NoDrop gear for the crafter so yeah, the crafter warrior could craft a raid quality BP because he 1)raided to get the drop and 2)had the crafting skills to make the item. In guilds where RPP was utilized, many times such drops were defaulted or had significantly discount RPP costs because only 1 of the right class had the skills. Many of the Epic quests had such drops (the skin drop from Cazic Thule in PoFear for example.)
This may be a bit off topic......... and maybe as a non-crafter I shouldnt have a say in the matter. But Ill suggest it anyway.
First Its true Im not a fan of crafting, but I will say the most enjoyable experiences in crafting have been those that are engrossing such as mini games like what FFXIV did (not that I like too much else from that game). They even had crafting class quests. And yes I did many of them as a "necessary evil" for my guild(sometimes you have to do what is needed not what you want to make your guild succede). Anyways, this all served to make crafting much more bearable to me then in any other MMO I played (Including XI), and not want to shoot myself and end my suffering.
I loved Crafting in VG, I really think the VG crafting system is one of the prime parts that helped keep it alive during the last few years when it was hard to get goups and the population dramas.
Good crafting gives you a reason to play when you don't always have time to group up or just want to do your own thing for a bit. On the flip side, if done right it can be used as a great social tool with people trying to find the master crafters for specific items to be crafted.
Who remember EQTraders website? Had a massive database of all tradeskills, all the recipies, all the trivial level, etc. I didn't think it would still be around, but here it is. Looking through it sure brings back memories.
Wandidar said:Vandraad said:Krixus said:Chimerical said:I agree with Arksien, crafting should be on an equal footing with adventuring. Why should my 10 hours of crafting be less valuable than your 10 hours of adventuring?
It's really simple. You were not at risking of dying one single time during your 10 hours of crafting. Risk vs reward. Why should the crafting reward be the same as the adventuring reward?
If they want it to be equal, then when they fail a crafting attempt, they 1) die, 2)tools are destroyed, 3) potentially lose crafting XP and possibly crafting levels just like adventurers losing levels when they die. We'll then have all crafting stations down in dungeons and you can only use the station in zones appropriate for the level of the items you are crafting (a safe-ish area, but nonetheless not in a comfy convenient town). Oh, then throw in the inability to bind there so when they die they have a corpse run. Finally, gaining a crafting level takes the same equivalent man hours as a full group can gain a level. If a group is 6 people and it takes them 4 real hours to gain 1 level (that being 24 man-hours) then to gain the equivalent crafting level would take 24 man-hours. Happy clicking.
Toss all that in and yea, crafting can be as valuable as adventuring.
I'm not a crafter - but I'm going to play devil's advocate for you.
1) If the crafter needs to be present when the raid level boss you got your best piece of gear from is killed to get a gear pattern
2) If the crafter needs to be present when mats from mobs / bosses during raids are killed
3) If the crafter then needs to spend a massive time investment above and beyond that to get their crafting skill up high enough to make the piece of gear
Well then, one could make the argument that their investment in time and risk far exceeds yours, and the loot they get should then exceed what you can get just because you were present for that kill. (Assumes similar restrictions on gear - so crafter is making no drop gear just like you got no drop gear directly from the mob)
Why would the crafter need to be present?
Nevertheless, the risk in crafting can definitely match or exceed that of a normal adventurer if the cost, ergo time commitment, is as high.
I have no problem with crafted items being as good or better than dropped gear in a game where materials are not obtained solo. The days of running around and collecting ore by yourself has to come to an end if we are serious about putting an end to solo progression. Once mats become rare and obtained from dangerous areas with groups or even raids of people, suddenly it justifies the greater reward; Especially if the end product has a chance of failing or being lower quality.
I'm with Dullahan on this, I have no problem with crafting items meeting or exceeding the power of dropped items, but the main condition of that is that the effort and amount of people needed to obtain those materials used in crafting it, must also meet or exceed the challenge of getting an item of similar quality from a drop.
In essence, the risk/reward must match. Which basically means to me, that the standard run around and gather ore or wood has to go. These materials must be obtained from a similarly dangerous dungeon as the item would drop, or from the mobs that drop the items themselves. Example : the ghoul archmagus may drop a crafting material that can be used to modify the stats, personalize, or enhance the Shining Metallic Robes, but to make an item of SMR quality, you need a drop from an NPC of the ghoul archmagus, or a mob of similar difficulty/rarity.
Hey Dekaden,
I think I know where the misunderstanding of my (and others) meaning comes from. Vandraad, myself, and others seem to be presuming that themats to make a crafted sword are just as rare as the sword that might drop in the zone. If a raid boss drops a crafting mat that's super rare, and you can use it to craft a NO DROP item that is of raid quality, I see no harm in that. I think the reason I'd prefer crafted items from a level 20 zone to be the same as the level 20 drop is because I also want the mats to be as rare as the drop itself. I suppose I took for granted that this was "assumed," and forget that the MMO world since 2005 has mostly had games where getting crafting mats is as easy as walking around and picking flowers. I'm more accustomed to needing to camp mobs for crafting mats, or having them spawn in a random location very rarely and unpredictably (like the mats for the BFG back in Velious before it got nerfed), not be something that just lays around in the open and is easy to farm. I think some of us were assuming this is where mats come from, and others were assuming mats are crazy easy to get, and the two parties were trying to have a conversation not realizing what the other was "taking as a given" into the debate.
I'm curious if you would be accepting of crafted gear being on par with drop gear so long as at least one item to make the sword was a drop as rare as the sword itself? I realize now I wasn't clear on this rarity of mats, and can see how you wouldn't want the crafted item to be more easily attainable. I agree.
However, if the mats were that rare but you still wanted the crafting gear to be lower tier stop-gap gear, then I suppose we just won't see eye to eye on this issue. You seem like a pretty level headed person, and I really like what you have to say on these forums a lot, so I'm curious if this is where the breakdown in communication was, or if you did assume the mats would be that rare and still prefer against it?
Here's a quick sketch of what I think would be a good system.
Tunic of Common Leetness (drops from zone boss as common drop, random guard to boss mob as rare drop)
Leve: 30
AC: 35
Str + 2
Dex + 2
Tunic of Greater Leetness (drops from a boss in the zone. Boss is rare spawn, this is the rare drop from the boss)
Level: 30
AC: 40
STR + 6
DEX + 6
From the same zone, you can kill wild bores (a level 32 mob) and skin them for a tunic to make
Tunic of Crafted Stubborness
Level: 32
Ac: 35
Or, you can kill those same bores and skin them, AND add a rare drop gem from the zone boss and make
Tunic of Endless Boar Farming
Level: 30
AC: 40
Str + 2 (with green gem) or + 6 (with red gem)
Dex + 2 (with green gem) or +6 (with red gem)
These are bastardized examples that oversimplify for the sake of brevity, but as you can see, you can't get crafting gear on this sytem at the level of a boss drop unless you get a crafting material from said (or similar difficulty) boss. Maybe the boss loot table looks like this:
Tunic of Common Leetness (common drop)
Trinket of Endless Nagging (common drop)
Sword of the Temporary Victories (umcommon drop)
Green Gem (uncommon drop)
Tunic of Greater Leetness (Rare Drop)
Red Gem (Rare Drop)
Yes, you could sell the green or red gem to a crafter who themselves did not kill the mob, and they could make the tunic having never killed the mob, however you can also just sell the pre-dropped tunic to anyone, so the only thing we're really adding to the game is a mechanic to add realism, socializing, and economy. Of course, in an actual crafting system, different gems would add different stats, so the web could get more complex than simply making "exactly identical" gear (which I choose to ignore for this argument for sake of ease), but the overarching point is that any rarity of mats would be balanced to similar rarity of gear, and the stats would balnce so rare gear and rare crafted gear are on par (although maybe slightly different so as not to be completely boring), and crafted gear made out of "easier" to get materials would be on par, or even slightly worse than common gear from a similar zone. (I conceed in this case it would be better to have the common crafting gear be of a slightly lower quality, since skinning the boars would probably be easier than getting the tunic to drop from a henchmen of similar level).
Wow, thought I replied to this but I guess I'm getting here and FB blurred ;)
I don't do a lot of crafting (usually other people in the guild enjoyed it more) but I think it's important to an MMO. The more you can give people to do the better.
The problem is in making crafting something of long term value. Generally what happens is, as the game ages, so many people are doing crafting that the items made are cheap, certainly cheaper than skilling up in crafting yourself.
The other 'demand' I see is is for crafted items to be the best in the game, which I don't agree with. Crafting should be enhancements to everything, not substitutions for. Best item comes from a raid? Crafting can make it better. Best spell comes from a raid? Crafting can make it better.
Crafting and it's results needs to be rethought and future-proofed to some degree. There will always be consumables and things that help out to be crafted, and they will eventually become cheap and commonplace, that's fine. But the higher end crafting (not just end game, can be high end for current level) has to remain a little elusive, ADD value instead of replacing it, and be something new players in an old game want to pursue because there is value there.
One thing I'd like to see that I've never seen done is the bonus of an item is related to the level of the crafter and the level of the user. The closer in level they are the MORE benefit they get. This would help prevent a high level crafter from making stuff way beneith them and flooding the market while encouraging people to craft through all the levels.
Just to stick numbers on it to give an example:
Level 50 crafts a level 10 damage shield potion which gives +10 damage shield when used by a person level 10
Level 10 crafts a level 10 damage shield potion which gives +15 to damage shield when used by a person level 10
Level 15 crafts a level 10 damage shield potion which gives +13 to damage shield when used by a person level 10
You'd also have to look at capping the flip side, a lower level using a higher level crafted item - again to encourage using things in their range.
So on. Again, not focusing on the numbers, just the concept of crafting and using things for YOUR level, not everyone's.
Great post Canno, I LOVE the idea of variable power based on user divide. This would also make for a good anti-twinking/PLing mechanic.
I took some time off vanguard after launch. I tried to go back later, and found all the crafting/economy was so wacky due to the lower population I couldn't possibly put my foot in the door.
This would also appease fears on the other end of a low level toon being able to make gear for a level 50 as a level 50 crafter despite being level 10, because no level 50 wants gear with lowered stats when they can find a crafter who is level 50 at crafting as well as general level.
I would really, really like to see this "level gap" crafting system, and this is coming from a guy that normally does not like such things. I think this would actually work well to prevent all the problems you listed, and are so very true in too many games.
I liked being able to craft nice and goor armor level pieces, and I liked having a high skill to be able to do combines for others. Doing combines would be the only time i charged a small fee, and even then only after it as succesfull and I always provided a disclaimer before hand, insuring that they knew the items might be lost. I would group, so they could see the whispered outcome.
If I entered the game at times my friends were not on ( like early in the AM) and had nothing else to do and I did not feel like PuG's or adventuring/excitement/stress, But just wanted to enjoy the scenery, take in the vibe of the city; I would feel a sense of accomplishment if I got some skill ups in an average crafing session. It was not long after that I got the "bug" just because I was able to see the neat things I could possibly make via in game Lore items or outside community sources. The outside sources were good because I could sort through and find the path of least expense or items to get skill ups.
I never sold my items, I always gave them away- it did not make sense to me to clog up my inventory hoping for a buyer. Unlike some enchanters that were constantly trying to jam ruby viels in my face earnestly swearing they would only charge me cost. I dont know how many monks I chased down to thrust upon them a piece or full set of Wu's depending on what I was working on. Selling it to a vendor was a way to unload, but it seemed a waste, and often the items would not appear on the vendor.
I even tried carrying my reasearch stuff along on adventures to try to skill up as I went along, but, it was too bulky. Wizzy's seemed to have it easy. Mages, needed, like: Fuzz, chainmail, frogs tongues and a paper and a quill. non-stackable, to maybe get one research rune, non-stackable, and you needed two to get a skillup-. Always, the stuff I needed never dropped and my bags were full of....Fuzz, frogs tongues, paper, warm dryer lint...lol.
At the time a mage had to research to fill out their compliment of elementals, as some could not be bought, anywhere, but had to be reasearched up to- sometimes failing on the way. I liked how other skills were needed and got skill ups in other crafts while working on one. For instance, in order to get a certain fire elemental, you had to successfully brew a Halas Heater and combine it with fuzz and something to get one low level spell, to combine with other stuff to get the current spell. It prompted me to then branch off and brew Fizzy Odus juice. I would drink it publically so people would see the emote- trying make people ask me about it so I could role-play ; sort of tricking them into role play- saying "what are you drinking?" Most would say nothing, but I didn't care. And if any newbies needed drink I would give them Fizzy Odus juice instead of summoned water, it was often the first time they saw it and they wondered. I hoped it pique their curiosity and encourage them to maybe go to Odus and see the things there.
Kilsin said:How much do you like crafting in MMORPGs, is crafting something you expect to be in-game and how important do you think it is for the game even if you don't craft? :)
Are all of those nice discussions about things such as this gone, or am I just missing the link? There were some great ideas in a discussion brought up Joppa, I think, started a while back before the new forums.
I don't see why consumables and the like need to become "common". We're not thinking about games the way we thought about Everquest, we're thinking about them in a Post-WoW mindset. Who is to say that consumables don't require rare drops too, who is to say that consumables aren't incredibly difficult to acquire, and something a group rolls on rather than something a bot clicks on while moving from point to point via nodes?
WoW trivialized everything, absolutely everything. The best things in any given level range should be rare, consumables included. Crafting will become extremely relevant if it's very hard to raise, and requires a large amount of combines to try to skill up, especially if there is no mundane way to raise skill, you literally need rare drops to even up skill.
I also have an idea that I would like to see some thoughts on, let's look at crafting from a real-life perspective, in relation to the Pantheon epic high fantasy setting. For a reliable blacksmith to craft a weapon in the technology age that Pantheon is set in, it would not be that uncommon to see a single weapon take a week to craft. Now that doesn't mean it should take a week in Pantheon, but one thing that I think needs to change is the ability for 1 crafter to craft 100 things in 10 minutes, that's just no realistic, or logical.
I think crafting would be much more valuable if there was a limitation on how many items you could craft at once, and how long they took, for sake of arguement, I think a rare weapon should take at least a day if not 2, and you shouldn't ever be able to craft more than a few at a time. It would be much closer to RL then, and would put much more emphasis on crafters, and not just 1 guy cornering the entire market.
Bots are a good point to bring up. Most mats should come from drops, not harvest nodes. If there are harvest nodes, I don't think many if any should be in "safe" spots. It'd also be nice if they had a truly random spawn loc so a bot can't just know where to port to and safely loot.
If we do go the mostly consumables route, though I'd prefer we don't, I could easily see many of those idems coming from nodes, which I'm again not sure is a historically good idea. Maybe a fun mechanic where consumable nodes spawn mobs if you loot too many in a row in a short time? That would weed out who's a bot and who's grouping through the zone real quick!
[Blockquote] For a reliable blacksmith to craft a weapon in the technology age that Pantheon is set in, it would not be that uncommon to see a single weapon take a week to craft. Now that doesn't mean it should take a week in Pantheon, but one thing that I think needs to change is the ability for 1 crafter to craft 100 things in 10 minutes, that's just no realistic, or logical.
Yes please. Maybe as you level up you max out how many items you can do at once. Low level, 1 item, 1 minute, then 5 minutes, then 10 minutes, then 2 items up to 20 minutes, 30, 45, 1 hour, 3 items up to 2 hours, 3 hours, 4 items up to 4, 5 ,5 ,7, 8 ,hours, up to 5 items at 9, 10, 12, 24 hours, etc up to a maximum of 10 tems at a time taking 1 week to forge each. This would add realism, make you wait for "the good stuff," and add a sort of "time grind" to make crafting seem more rewarding.
This would also be one of the few really good uses of player housing, because it'd give you place to keep your "in progress" items while they're being honed.
I see a lot of people advocating that "time" for levels, gear attainment, and travel are great for games and sorely lacking in the modern gaming world, I see no reason to not apply it to crafting. Similar timers can be applied to learning recipes too.
Arksien said:Hey Dekaden,
I think I know where the misunderstanding of my (and others) meaning comes from. Vandraad, myself, and others seem to be presuming that themats to make a crafted sword are just as rare as the sword that might drop in the zone. If a raid boss drops a crafting mat that's super rare, and you can use it to craft a NO DROP item that is of raid quality, I see no harm in that. I think the reason I'd prefer crafted items from a level 20 zone to be the same as the level 20 drop is because I also want the mats to be as rare as the drop itself. I suppose I took for granted that this was "assumed," and forget that the MMO world since 2005 has mostly had games where getting crafting mats is as easy as walking around and picking flowers. I'm more accustomed to needing to camp mobs for crafting mats, or having them spawn in a random location very rarely and unpredictably (like the mats for the BFG back in Velious before it got nerfed), not be something that just lays around in the open and is easy to farm. I think some of us were assuming this is where mats come from, and others were assuming mats are crazy easy to get, and the two parties were trying to have a conversation not realizing what the other was "taking as a given" into the debate.
I'm curious if you would be accepting of crafted gear being on par with drop gear so long as at least one item to make the sword was a drop as rare as the sword itself? I realize now I wasn't clear on this rarity of mats, and can see how you wouldn't want the crafted item to be more easily attainable. I agree.
However, if the mats were that rare but you still wanted the crafting gear to be lower tier stop-gap gear, then I suppose we just won't see eye to eye on this issue. You seem like a pretty level headed person, and I really like what you have to say on these forums a lot, so I'm curious if this is where the breakdown in communication was, or if you did assume the mats would be that rare and still prefer against it?
Here's a quick sketch of what I think would be a good system.
Tunic of Common Leetness (drops from zone boss as common drop, random guard to boss mob as rare drop)
Leve: 30
AC: 35
Str + 2
Dex + 2
Tunic of Greater Leetness (drops from a boss in the zone. Boss is rare spawn, this is the rare drop from the boss)
Level: 30
AC: 40
STR + 6
DEX + 6
From the same zone, you can kill wild bores (a level 32 mob) and skin them for a tunic to make
Tunic of Crafted Stubborness
Level: 32
Ac: 35
Or, you can kill those same bores and skin them, AND add a rare drop gem from the zone boss and make
Tunic of Endless Boar Farming
Level: 30
AC: 40
Str + 2 (with green gem) or + 6 (with red gem)
Dex + 2 (with green gem) or +6 (with red gem)
These are bastardized examples that oversimplify for the sake of brevity, but as you can see, you can't get crafting gear on this sytem at the level of a boss drop unless you get a crafting material from said (or similar difficulty) boss. Maybe the boss loot table looks like this:
Tunic of Common Leetness (common drop)
Trinket of Endless Nagging (common drop)
Sword of the Temporary Victories (umcommon drop)
Green Gem (uncommon drop)
Tunic of Greater Leetness (Rare Drop)
Red Gem (Rare Drop)
Yes, you could sell the green or red gem to a crafter who themselves did not kill the mob, and they could make the tunic having never killed the mob, however you can also just sell the pre-dropped tunic to anyone, so the only thing we're really adding to the game is a mechanic to add realism, socializing, and economy. Of course, in an actual crafting system, different gems would add different stats, so the web could get more complex than simply making "exactly identical" gear (which I choose to ignore for this argument for sake of ease), but the overarching point is that any rarity of mats would be balanced to similar rarity of gear, and the stats would balnce so rare gear and rare crafted gear are on par (although maybe slightly different so as not to be completely boring), and crafted gear made out of "easier" to get materials would be on par, or even slightly worse than common gear from a similar zone. (I conceed in this case it would be better to have the common crafting gear be of a slightly lower quality, since skinning the boars would probably be easier than getting the tunic to drop from a henchmen of similar level).
Now you're getting somewhere and I think we're more on the same page now. IF the mats required to craft a sword were as rare and hard to obtain as the adventuring dropped sword, BY ALL MEANS make them equal in value and effectiveness, or even greater in some circumstances (see below). I just want to avoid mass crafted item influx being injected into the market AND having them be the best stuff you can possibly equip (pre-endgame). Both of those cannot exist at the same time or you run the risk of devaluing adventuring to the point where gear drops are meaningless, moot, obsolete. This is what we saw happen in EQ2 and I can guarantee this is not the intended game design for Pantheon.
Yes, I was assuming crafter mat aquisition would be similar to most other MMO's we've seen... as easy as picking flowers. If that becomes the case, then crafted gear will need to be below parlevel with dropped gear, or you devalue adventuring gear through the sheer ease of collecting materials. Take WoW's crafted gear model for example: There are a ton of crafters, a ton of crafting materials, and a ton of crafted gear, but that gear is considered stop-gap gear. It gets you get geared enough to earn better gear, but its not the best stuff you can get. But imagine for a second if it was the best stuff you could get... how would that change the game? It would devalue adventuring gear substantially. If mats are rare and hard to come by such as dragon scales, or the gem example you used above, crafting gear can be parlevel or in some cases slightly or even significantly better than adventured gear. Controlling available mats would be key, and would ultimately determine how the system would be set up.
This is a brilliant system you're describing, Arksien. A great way of balancing adventuring and crafting gear. Let me add one more layer for you, adding an additional effect to make it BETTER than adventuring gear, but both gems must be used and the item becomes bind on equip, where the other parlevel versions would remain tradable after equipping. Without the bind on equip, these "uber" crafted versions would eventually saturate the market and we'd be back to square one with item devaluation of adventuring gear. Anything parlevel or below can (and should) remain tradable.
Sparkling Tunic of Endless Boar Farming
BIND ON EQUIP
Level: 30
AC: 40
Str + 2 (with green gem) or + 6 (with red gem)
Dex + 2 (with green gem) or +6 (with red gem)
Added Random Effect: 1% chance to reflect 50% damage. (with both gems, in addition to above stats)
And to add yet another layer to your example:
Green Gem
Magic Item
Description: Used by crafters to add minor magical properties to an item.
Red Gem
Magic Item, LORE
Description: Used by crafters to add major magical properties to an item.
In this example, the adventurers could trade the gems to crafters. Maybe some crafted drops with would not be tradable, and must be looted by the crafter. Crafted drops with exceptional power may even need to be looted by the crafter AND crafted in the zone using a special crafting station, as suggested by Raidan earlier. I think all of these are great ideas as long as it's balanced approprately with adventured gear.
Anything crafted below parlevel, which should be easier for the crafter, is what I would consider stop-gap gear. Stuff that can gear you enough to fill empty slots, replace starter gear, or make sure you're at least geared enough to be able to function as an adventurer able to obtain either dropped loot or dropped crafting mats as you illustrated above. It would be OK for these items to be created by the masses and sold on the market without devaluing adventuring gear, since they would be slightly below parlevel adventuring gear. This system would create an environment where crafters can craft stop-gap gear that people want and need without detriment to adventuring gear values, as well as creating equal or better than adventured gear with frequency controlled by material rarity that is obtained with appropriate time and risk investment.
I like it a lot, great work Arksien.