Liav said:Kalgore said:I would be okay with some raid mobs triggered by items but not all. Contested should still exist no matter what
Why?
To help limit guilds camping and locking down what ever mobs drop said item. I also think Contested adds something to it. Its fun to be like OMFG the Dragon has spawned and start getting your guild mstes together trying to get your force ready before anyone else notices. Item based spawn raids takes away from that.
Kalgore said:To help limit guilds camping and locking down what ever mobs drop said item. I also think Contested adds something to it. Its fun to be like OMFG the Dragon has spawned and start getting your guild mstes together trying to get your force ready before anyone else notices. Item based spawn raids takes away from that.
Aren't you just trading one shitty behavior for another? I don't necessarily think that triggered spawns are a great idea either for aforementioned reasons, nor do I think purely contested stuff is the right answer either.
I think Vanguard executed things perfectly. Contested raiding with lockouts and faster respawns with no variance, as well as sharded areas like APW that were basically open world mirrors of a specific zone.
The problem with contested raiding is that you have to deal with no lifers who sign up for batphones to trivially monopolize all of the contested content.
Liav said:Kalgore said:To help limit guilds camping and locking down what ever mobs drop said item. I also think Contested adds something to it. Its fun to be like OMFG the Dragon has spawned and start getting your guild mstes together trying to get your force ready before anyone else notices. Item based spawn raids takes away from that.
Aren't you just trading one shitty behavior for another? I don't necessarily think that triggered spawns are a great idea either for aforementioned reasons, nor do I think purely contested stuff is the right answer either.
I think Vanguard executed things perfectly. Contested raiding with lockouts and faster respawns with no variance, as well as sharded areas like APW that were basically open world mirrors of a specific zone.
The problem with contested raiding is that you have to deal with no lifers who sign up for batphones to trivially monopolize all of the contested content.
Oh hell no contested only or item based only isnt the answer I agree 100 percent.
I never played Vanguard so I dont know how they did it. I assume when you say contested with lockouts it means once guild A kills the dragon they cant kill it again for 10 days but it will spawn after 2 days giving guild B a chance to kill it?? I love that idea honestly. Thats my only reason I like some raid instances like eq2. Contested game the bes tloot but you also had instances to do that gave guilds something to do and not worry about guilds locking it down.
Kalgore said:Oh hell no contested only or item based only isnt the answer I agree 100 percent.
I never played Vanguard so I dont know how they did it. I assume when you say contested with lockouts it means once guild A kills the dragon they cant kill it again for 10 days but it will spawn after 2 days giving guild B a chance to kill it?? I love that idea honestly. Thats my only reason I like some raid instances like eq2. Contested game the bes tloot but you also had instances to do that gave guilds something to do and not worry about guilds locking it down.
Yep, that's exactly how it worked. Anyone who was present for the kill would receive a lockout, and the mob would turn a grey transparent color kind of like a ghost if you were locked out.
You couldn't damage it, be damaged by it, heal anyone engaged to it, etc. If you were present for the kill you simply couldn't engage it again for 5 days or however long. With that though, the respawn timer was quicker like every 24-48 hours or something. There was incentive to compete with guilds for kills to an extent, but it wasn't anywhere near as dire to the point where batphoning was needed. There was also just a lot of content to kill so if you missed a particular mob one night, odds are good it would be up on your next raid night.
This meant that guilds could keep their schedules regular (sun/tu/thu, 9-12 est) or something like that, and not have to batphone. Content selection for a night couldn't be done in advance but it was simple to just send scouts to see what was up and assemble at a mob if it was available.
Liav said:Kalgore said:Oh hell no contested only or item based only isnt the answer I agree 100 percent.
I never played Vanguard so I dont know how they did it. I assume when you say contested with lockouts it means once guild A kills the dragon they cant kill it again for 10 days but it will spawn after 2 days giving guild B a chance to kill it?? I love that idea honestly. Thats my only reason I like some raid instances like eq2. Contested game the bes tloot but you also had instances to do that gave guilds something to do and not worry about guilds locking it down.
Yep, that's exactly how it worked. Anyone who was present for the kill would receive a lockout, and the mob would turn a grey transparent color kind of like a ghost if you were locked out.
You couldn't damage it, be damaged by it, heal anyone engaged to it, etc. If you were present for the kill you simply couldn't engage it again for 5 days or however long. With that though, the respawn timer was quicker like every 24-48 hours or something. There was incentive to compete with guilds for kills to an extent, but it wasn't anywhere near as dire to the point where batphoning was needed. There was also just a lot of content to kill so if you missed a particular mob one night, odds are good it would be up on your next raid night.
This meant that guilds could keep their schedules regular (sun/tu/thu, 9-12 est) or something like that, and not have to batphone. Content selection for a night couldn't be done in advance but it was simple to just send scouts to see what was up and assemble at a mob if it was available.
I love this setup I'm sure someone will say it breaks immersion
Kalgore said:Liav said:Kalgore said:Oh hell no contested only or item based only isnt the answer I agree 100 percent.
I never played Vanguard so I dont know how they did it. I assume when you say contested with lockouts it means once guild A kills the dragon they cant kill it again for 10 days but it will spawn after 2 days giving guild B a chance to kill it?? I love that idea honestly. Thats my only reason I like some raid instances like eq2. Contested game the bes tloot but you also had instances to do that gave guilds something to do and not worry about guilds locking it down.
Yep, that's exactly how it worked. Anyone who was present for the kill would receive a lockout, and the mob would turn a grey transparent color kind of like a ghost if you were locked out.
You couldn't damage it, be damaged by it, heal anyone engaged to it, etc. If you were present for the kill you simply couldn't engage it again for 5 days or however long. With that though, the respawn timer was quicker like every 24-48 hours or something. There was incentive to compete with guilds for kills to an extent, but it wasn't anywhere near as dire to the point where batphoning was needed. There was also just a lot of content to kill so if you missed a particular mob one night, odds are good it would be up on your next raid night.
This meant that guilds could keep their schedules regular (sun/tu/thu, 9-12 est) or something like that, and not have to batphone. Content selection for a night couldn't be done in advance but it was simple to just send scouts to see what was up and assemble at a mob if it was available.
I love this setup I'm sure someone will say it breaks immersion
God that all sounds nice. There is no 100% answer that will make everyone happy but thats the closest thing i've ever read to solving the problem.
Instancing blows, monopolizing content blows, lockouts blow but far less. "Pantheon : Rise of the Fallen (now with less blowing)"
I'd think the character lock should be an account-wide lock/ip lock though. I can see the "opportunity for someone else" mobs which spawn 2 days into the 7 day character lockout just being sniped by guild x's alts.
I'd doubt a whole guild would poopsock some mob on alts (every 24-48 hours while they wait for their mains lockout to clear) but it would make sense to not even make that an option. Neckbeards who love pixels and power really will do some fairly creepy things to maintain an advantage. See : 99, Red.
I really like OP's idea, one more reason to have people come back and grind any kind of content where these could drop.
The Vanguard lockout system as described by Liav (having the boss wander as a ghost for you if you had killed it recently), sounds also pretty good. I wouldn't think it breaks immersion, personnally.
I am not against having the most hardcore guilds competing over world bosses and get a fair advantage out of it, as long as the more laid back crowd still gets its share of raid content. I want to enjoy the game at my own pace, but if people invest more time me into raiding, more power to them :)
Yea not one or the other on contested vs item popped. Needs to be a varied approach. Probably would add long epic style quests as triggers as well. Ive also even seen in some gmes event based spawns. So such and such Raid target dies, which manwhle triggers Such and such's lover to spawn and go berszerk some where else in the world...... things like that.
Rallyd said:We should just instance all raid mobs, in fact, every raid mob in the game should be 1 groupable, its totally unfair if someone can't access content they are paying for at any time.
I'd respond with snark but I think I've pissed Kilsin off enough already.
Instead, I'll just say "nice strawman, bro". Although that's pretty snarky, too.
Liav said:Kalgore said:I would be okay with some raid mobs triggered by items but not all. Contested should still exist no matter what
Why?
I thinkI understand this. Even if you get to the boss it should not be a given that you will get the epic/rare drop. It adds to the tension and experience. Now granted that may sit funny with some but its part of the gaming adventure. Doesnt it take away from the rare status if its a typical drop?
Ox
Oxillion said:I thinkI understand this. Even if you get to the boss it should not be a given that you will get the epic/rare drop. It adds to the tension and experience. Now granted that may sit funny with some but its part of the gaming adventure. Doesnt it take away from the rare status if its a typical drop?
Ox
I don't think so. I honestly hate random drop mechanics.
For instance, Vercel's mask in APW. My guild had run Vercel about 20 times and never saw a mask, then I app'd to the guild and got the mask on my first run. We split our raid in two to maximize our chances and I lucked out.
It wasn't due to anything interesting, just a dice roll. However, that is kind of a separate topic.
Gadgets said: I had an idea that I thought i'd share and see if anyone else liked it. This idea is assuming that Pantheon will adopt the classic, competitive raiding style that many of us have enjoyed from the EARLY days. Aside from spawn timers on major raid bosses, there was an alternative way to spawn that same raid target by way of a lengthy quest line, or an extremely rare and random drop from trash mobs. They can choose the time of spawn by their turn in, completion of quest, or some type of sacrifice spell on the item. My reasoning for this is to allow competitive guilds to contest raid mobs but still allow a very limited amount of attempts at raid targets for the more casual players. It keeps 'trash' content relevant for all level ranges min-max and can even be a way to add some coin in someone's bank. You could tweak the drop rate or difficulty of the quest line as not to take the advantage away from the hardcore guilds, however avoiding the discouragement that casual guilds feel when they're locked out of said content completely. I've been in smaller guilds before and sometimes it's just nice to look forward to a raid or event now and then, or even just to know that it's possible.
If you want a spawn, work for it. Put in more effort than the other guilds and beat them at their own game. Learn the spawn times, watch other guild movements to see where they go and when. And when you know a mob is going to spawn at a certain time, be there earlier than the other guy.
This subject comes up time and time again with people wanting the developers to design mechanics around the shortcomings of the players. If you don't have enough people to beat the other guild(s) with the people you have then get more people. If you don't want more people the learn to be smarter than the other guild(s). Eventually they will mess up or miss a spawn cycle and then you can try to keep it under your control.
Yea man. I get all that thrill and neckbeard stuff. I've done it. I lived it. And I was great at it. But at some point life changes and your priorities become different. It doesn't make me any less of a fan to raiding, it doesn't mean I don't still appreciate a good challenge, and it doesn't mean I'm any less of a skilled player. It just means you get a little older, a little busier, and appreciate a healthy lifestyle off of the computer. I'm just asking for a way for someone in my position, to still enjoy some fun content with people I enjoy rather than being some fly by night burnt out raider.
I'm also one of those types of raiders that likes to do more with less numbers. But if you look at raids that are all about who can mobilize faster, you lose that ability to communicate with your raid force, setup good rotations, understand and respect the oponent. P99 is competitive, I'll give ya that...but it's also about the zerg. The actual raid experience is worthless.
What a lot of hard core riders lose sight of is that they're generally the minority, not the majority.
I don't condone poorly designed systems that allow guilds to monopolize content, but I also don't think the solution is to make all of "raiding" accessible to everyone. There are no less than 10 mainstream MMOs that people can go and play right now, and have that experience. If items are supposed to be "memorable, deserved, cherished, and desired", limitations must be involved.
I also don't expect Pantheon to adapt to my lifestyle just because I have more responsibilities than I used to. For all you former neckbeards, its time to pass the torch. Expecting VR to change the game to accomodate your life is only going to result in a less compelling experience for everyone.
Dullahan said:I don't condone poorly designed systems that allow guilds to monopolize content, but I also don't think the solution is to make all of "raiding" accessible to everyone. There are no less than 10 mainstream MMOs that people can go and play right now, and have that experience. If items are supposed to be "memorable, deserved, cherished, and desired", limitations must be involved.
I also don't expect Pantheon to adapt to my lifestyle just because I have more responsibilities than I used to. For all you former neckbeards, its time to pass the torch. Expecting VR to change the game to accomodate your life is only going to result in a less compelling experience for everyone.
This is all fine and dandy, but I haven't heard you try to describe a contested content system that doesn't lead to one guild full of sociopathic neckbeards monopolizing all the content. If it is possible to monopolize, it will be monopolized. Unless VR wants to dedicate thousands of man hours to policing a rotation system like P99, SOUNDS LEGIT.
Also what do you mean lockouts are instancing on a mob by mob basis? 90% of the complaints I hear about instancing is that it splits up the game world. If the content is contested then by design it doesn't do that.
I don't feel like playing a game with a bunch of shitters who are going to destroy the game so they can be on top. If you want to be on top, you can do so through your playing ability. Not your ability to sit on your ass and stare at the spawn loc for a pixel dragon for hours.
Dullahan said:Lockouts are but instancing on a mob by mob basis.
Kilsin can correct me if I'm wrong here but I am pretty sure he stated that they are looking into doing raid targets similar to VG with lockouts. Basically, there would be no spawn time. The mobs will respawn 10ish minutes after they die and once killed would issue a lockout to all involved. At least that's the way I read it.
However, I think that is too easy. I am on board with the OP here but my suggestion was more in line with what Wildstar does with their world bosses. You go out and farm certain mobs in order to get 100 or 1000 i can't remember, drops. Then you take those drops and turn them into someone at the spawn point and it spawns the world boss. This can easily be controlled by reducing or increasing the drop rates on the items. Each boss should have different things to collect from different places.
This wouldn't affect the competitive scene as we could always have the normal spawn not be tied to the lockout so guilds can still fight for the normal spawns when they pop up. But it keeps from letting any guild/guilds controlling the spawns and lets the more casuals who don't or can't race still kill some bosses if they put the time in to do so
As far as I know thats just Kilsin saying what worked in VG. Also I dont agree with Dullahan about the game being changed to suit X. I have read no specifics about how any content systems will work. So in short we have too little info. What I have heard is that Brad acknowledged that players have grown up and have responsibilities. That they want some convenience for noobies. They want to solve open world content issues without resorting to actual Instances. And from kilsin in one thread he said something along the lines of that there should be something for most everyone in regards to content.
As far as passing the torch? Not just no but hell no. That doesnt make sense to me. I support this game in the hopes that this can be MY new and hopefully final MMO home. Why else would I be here? Why would I contribute money and later pay a a sub so that other people and not me could enjoy this game? Sorry but I will be selfish on this issue. If other folks want to help me carry a torch or get thier own thats fine. But they cant have mine. I dont consider this game being made for the "new" generartion. Its being made for us oldschoolers as we are now. And Im sure that Brad has said basicslly this in a couple of interviews already. Not the young versions of ourselves or the next generation. If they want to get on board I wont stop them though.
As usual, I am late to the game commenting...
Great points here... I view raiding content much different than the rest of the game. In my opinion, you have to control raiding in a way that offers progressive game play for all guilds or players. Liav mentioned in VG, you have open world mobs, yet have lockouts longer than respawns. This is a perfect way to deal with this... I don't mind certain epic style quests to trigger specific mobs, my question is however, what happens if you fail? Start over? Would be harsh...
Regular game, leave everything open and contested... Nothing screams immersion or dynamic environment than that. Of course you have to mix in random events or rare spawns to be ideal!!
Pyye said:I don't mind certain epic style quests to trigger specific mobs, my question is however, what happens if you fail? Start over? Would be harsh...
Just don't have the NPC consume the turn in. Have them hand it back to you. Once you successfully kill the mob, it removes the item from your inventory.
Lots of ways this could be done.
Pyye said:True I just wanted it stayed here that we don't want a harsh situation... I would assume in the case you mentioned, if there was a fail, there would be a lock out timer applied per the turn in character?
Lockouts are generally only issued upon successful completion of a raid encounter.
I'd assume it would be like epic 2.0 fights in Omens of War in EQ. If you wipe, you try again until it dies, then you lose the ability to spawn it again as you have progressed the quest.
Raid fights for epic pieces generally are a unique case in the grand context of raiding targets. You're using up your entire guild's time for one person's quest, so it's necessary to have systems built in to make successful completion of these quests viable in a fast manner. You can't be dragging your entire guild out to help with a raid fight, wipe, then have to do it again next week. It stalls progress way too much.
Dullahan said:I'm against work-arounds that allow players to spawn a different personal (guild) version of a raid mob. The reason raiding was so appealing in EQ (and totally unappealing in every game since), was largely due to the exclusivity and challenge of coordinating a large number of players with the necessary skill and gear prep, to kill a raid mob often with other guilds nipping at your heels.
That said, if there were a few lengthy quest lines that took weeks or months for guilds to work collectively to spawn a unique boss mob, I wouldn't be against that. As long as said mob was not in an instance and could hypothetically become fair game to others if the guild was unable to kill it (or contested on a PvP server). That would be interesting.
I agree with Dullahan. I'm against anything that would create a unique mob only for group xyz that spawned it. I would be ok with it as long as the mob was available to anyone once it was spawned. Some risk there of someone rushing in and kill stealing, but hopefully VR will be regulating in a way that things like that can be minimalized.
Cobes said:I agree with Dullahan. I'm against anything that would create a unique mob only for group xyz that spawned it. I would be ok with it as long as the mob was available to anyone once it was spawned. Some risk there of someone rushing in and kill stealing, but hopefully VR will be regulating in a way that things like that can be minimalized.
It's unreasonable to expect VR to be able to staff enough people to police or "regulate" this stuff on the scale of hundreds of different guilds across one or two dozen servers.
The way to "regulate" it is to design the game in such a way that these things don't need to be policed in the first place.
If you're going to pursue people for stealing spawned mobs it would make more sense to just lock the mobs to whoever spawned it to begin with.