Question 1- So I was reading a recent article about Pantheon and how with the collapse of EQN many are now eyeing Pantheon (I think the point of the article is sign we will get funding soon from a company.) but the article had comments, as they always do, in which people would post their comments. Some were very positive and encouraging and others were people who, understandably so, were a bit jaded because of the Vanguard release issues. As I read the comment it got me thinking about why I want to give MORE money for this game and that desire to help support Pantheon got me thinking about why are others here willing to give their money for a game that doesn't have a money backer as of yet and atm it's us who in a large sense are supporting the making of this game.
Question 2-The second question I have is, is this type of thing, when players are financially helping support the making of a currently un-backed game new or is it something that happens often?
My reasons for supporting this game financially are -
1-I believe in Brad. I believe there were many mistakes made with vanguard from how the administration worked to how the people funding the game got their nose in the wrong places leading to the release of an unfinished product. BUT in all that after reading Brads post, tweats and articles on what he learned from Vanguard and the humble beginnings of this game I am confident he has learned from the mistakes and it will help him and his team create a better game for all in this niche.
2- NOT GONNA LIE..... Nostalgia .... I wanna have nervous palpatations running from one side of the map to the other in the night time, I wanna play a game where twitch response and the best UI is not the determining factor but rather it's skill and tactics. I want bad pulls, bad cc'ing and groups not able to pay attention to have an adverse effect rather then run in, AE, Collect Loot and repeat. I want rares who are exactly that RARE and you better have your best face on to deal with them. In short I want what I felt the Golden days of EQ WITHOUT the needless time sinks.
3- I want a niche game like Pantheon that is NOT going to try to fill everyone's wants but is focused on its primary goal..... it's niche.
4- I want to play a game where skilled and MATURE players are conversing in a social way that's self policing and fun.
5- Probably most of all.... I want to play a game where I have to work my ass off to earn the best rewards and understand that if I can't get everything in the game ... that's part of it.
Because I'm not ready to write someone or something off based on some past mistakes, especially when they produced two of the best games I've ever played. Because they want to make the kind of game I have been yearning for since EQ changed and Vanguard shut down. And because I believe if there's even a chance of them pulling this off and making it the game they intend to, then I am more than willing to lay my cash on the line to help that become a reality. I am fully aware of the risk involved in subbing to a game that doesn't yet exist, and I'm more than happy to do so. The hope that Pantheon brings for a return to form in a challenging, group focused MMO, is worth more to me than a WoW sub that I can actually play. I want this to happen and I'm putting my money where my mouth is.
While it is 100% fair to say that EQ is definitely not old EQ - it's probably not "entirely" fair to say it's WoW with an EQ face. Even in its current state, EQ would make droves of WoW players rant and rave at how stupid hard it is... especially in WoW's current state.
I also think most of the people who harp on Vanguard being a failure are folks who want to use it as an example of how "Old School" MMO's are a thing of the past that nobody wants to play... and that this criticism is usually used to try and get new MMOs to "casual" themselves up a bit... or are delivered from people who want to crow with self importance (an interesting thing from the anonymity of a keyboard) about how "right" they are and how "wrong" people who like that style of game are... or both...
I'm here - and I paid myself purple - and have been considering paying more - because of something I've said on other threads. Brad McQuaid is 2 for 2 in building MMOs that interest me and fit the type of MMO I like. I see no reason he won't go 3 for 3.
I also said once in another thread - and haven't really followed through on it but probably should - that I'm going to stop referring to his games as "Old School" - because there were other games out on the market that tried for "old school" gamers that weren't the same as his games. So specifically - I'm here because I want a BRAD MCQUAID MMO.... which is how I'm really going to try to start referring to them - to distinquish them from games like DAoC, or Lineage, or Darkfall... all of which appeal to less casual gamers - just not the same audience that Pantheon will be aimed at.
I will be 100% honest on this.
When this game first started out I was ready to move mountains to get it happening. I still really want this game to work but I personal have seen a few decisions laity that really aren’t what I think a lot of us where imagining a year ago. As far as I can tell this game will be the last chance to get close to what we all loved 15 years ago and I really hope they stay true to what they have been promising.
Pantheon Please be true to the roots that got us all here, innovation is fine but don’t forget why you started this game and why we are all here.
Wandidar said:
I also think most of the people who harp on Vanguard being a failure are folks who want to use it as an example of how "Old School" MMO's are a thing of the past that nobody wants to play... and that this criticism is usually used to try and get new MMOs to "casual" themselves up a bit... or are delivered from people who want to crow with self importance (an interesting thing from the anonymity of a keyboard) about how "right" they are and how "wrong" people who like that style of game are... or both...
I agree with you that vanguard got a bad rep beyond what was the actual issues with it. I loved Vanguards class's and class balance better then any mmo I had played.
As far as a previous poster who feels recent decisions are moving this game away from what many of us wanted.... I get what your saying. If we could go back in time and move EQ, the feel, the aura the everything we felt in the Golden years to today anyone of us would do that. BUT that game that time is very outdated. The gameplay back then compared to now is clunky along with so many other things. I am guessing what you, myself and others after is not a new wheel being invented but taking the wheel we loved and relied on and updating it without losing it's consistency, reliability, stability and immersion(so to speak)
I get the feeling that these dev's are trying to give us a new day old school EQ/VG mix with the useful and appropriate new goodies. I doubt it will ever be anything anyone of us wants to the T but if its close enough that would make me happy.
Gadgets said:
Because they wouldn't let me participate in the forums unless I did.
We need to guild when this thing go's live.. love your sense of humor!
Xonth said:
I will be 100% honest on this.
When this game first started out I was ready to move mountains to get it happening. I still really want this game to work but I personal have seen a few decisions laity that really aren’t what I think a lot of us where imagining a year ago. As far as I can tell this game will be the last chance to get close to what we all loved 15 years ago and I really hope they stay true to what they have been promising.
Pantheon Please be true to the roots that got us all here, innovation is fine but don’t forget why you started this game and why we are all here.
A couple points on this - I think if you sat us all in a room and really hashed out EQ - that while on a "post to this forum" level our visions of old EQ are largely in lockstep - at a detail level though - even this community would find differences in what their personal view of EQ was based upon how they chose to play the game.
To that extent - I've learned (and boy did EQN hammer this point home) - to realize that I have to try to take my personal interpretations off of words very early on when a dev starts talking about a game. Many of you may recall stuff like Smedley saying very "old school" mouth watering things in the year before EQN was officially presented at SOE Live... he said things like them thinking about EXP / level loss on death, etc...
Then they showed Tony the Tiger in what looked like a very arcade style game at the reveal...
THEN they couched pretty much everything they said in ways that, if you really read it - could mean almost anything to anybody. The same statements were making old school mouths water and casual mouths water... with old school folks realizing over a few months that EQN was EQ Dead / WoW Next.
SO - you do have to put your own pre-conceived notions to the side.
Then you listen.
Will I say that every single detail the devs have talked about has made me want to dance? No - in all honesty I can't say that. BUT - can I say that the sum total of what they are saying still has me wanting to dance... yup. I can say that. BUT - some of the things I don't like might be some of the things someone else does. Again, even we old EQ'ers likely aren't 100% lockstep in our expectations.
They haven't said anything that says they are building EQ - or anything that says they are building Vanguard. They said they are building something LIKE those games... and what they say has largely pointed to that. I'll be concerned if I ever see them asking stuff like "Hey guys, what do you think of becoming a ghost and running back to your corpse as a death penalty? - would that be harsh enough? We think it is."
Until then - I'm good.
I can hear the resolution in this team's voices... a clarity of vision like we haven't seen since EQ1
The tools for making mmo's have come a long way since Vanguard and despite the launch I loved
that game also.
I think they are making exactly the game I want to play.
This is the community I fit into...
Kiz~
Wandidar said:
Xonth said:
I will be 100% honest on this.
When this game first started out I was ready to move mountains to get it happening. I still really want this game to work but I personal have seen a few decisions laity that really aren’t what I think a lot of us where imagining a year ago. As far as I can tell this game will be the last chance to get close to what we all loved 15 years ago and I really hope they stay true to what they have been promising.
Pantheon Please be true to the roots that got us all here, innovation is fine but don’t forget why you started this game and why we are all here.
A couple points on this - I think if you sat us all in a room and really hashed out EQ - that while on a "post to this forum" level our visions of old EQ are largely in lockstep - at a detail level though - even this community would find differences in what their personal view of EQ was based upon how they chose to play the game.
To that extent - I've learned (and boy did EQN hammer this point home) - to realize that I have to try to take my personal interpretations off of words very early on when a dev starts talking about a game. Many of you may recall stuff like Smedley saying very "old school" mouth watering things in the year before EQN was officially presented at SOE Live... he said things like them thinking about EXP / level loss on death, etc...
Then they showed Tony the Tiger in what looked like a very arcade style game at the reveal...
THEN they couched pretty much everything they said in ways that, if you really read it - could mean almost anything to anybody. The same statements were making old school mouths water and casual mouths water... with old school folks realizing over a few months that EQN was EQ Dead / WoW Next.
SO - you do have to put your own pre-conceived notions to the side.
Then you listen.
Will I say that every single detail the devs have talked about has made me want to dance? No - in all honesty I can't say that. BUT - can I say that the sum total of what they are saying still has me wanting to dance... yup. I can say that. BUT - some of the things I don't like might be some of the things someone else does. Again, even we old EQ'ers likely aren't 100% lockstep in our expectations.
They haven't said anything that says they are building EQ - or anything that says they are building Vanguard. They said they are building something LIKE those games... and what they say has largely pointed to that. I'll be concerned if I ever see them asking stuff like "Hey guys, what do you think of becoming a ghost and running back to your corpse as a death penalty? - would that be harsh enough? We think it is."
Until then - I'm good.
I get what you mean and I am not saying I wanted a re textured EQ by any means.
I also know the difference between a large corporation making a MMO where they have people that probably never even played an MMO making design decisions based on focus groups and trends in the market. That’s my big plus on Brad saying they trying to avoid getting money from someone that’s going to require game changes to meet the largest paying group.
I still support this game 100% but as far as trying to get others on board I’m pulling back a bit because I lost a lot of cred talking up this game only to have some of the decisions laid out as being a reversal on what I feel had been hinted at and what a ton of my raiding friends were looking for (no raid caps).
All I can say is I really hope they don’t try to tweak to many things people have not been asking for more than a year on this game.
Pantheon is the last hope for a true MMORPG out there. See, I wrote RPG. All those new games are justfull of players wanting to rush to the end and get the best items possible. They do not enjoy playing their character or identify with it ...it is only kind of a tool to most.
I feel like Brad and his team make this game with their heart. They give it a soul. And I wanna travel these lands as someone else. Brad was able to do it with EQ and VG ..he can do it now again
xonth said:
I
I still support this game 100% but as far as trying to get others on board I’m pulling back a bit because I lost a lot of cred talking up this game only to have some of the decisions laid out as being a reversal on what I feel had been hinted at and what a ton of my raiding friends were looking for (no raid caps).
All I can say is I really hope they don’t try to tweak to many things people have not been asking for more than a year on this game.
I am just curious what stuff did they do a reversal on that bothered you?
Well, my wife and I waited quite some time before taking the step to financially support this game.
Why?
Well, I remember the Vanguards boards and Brads comments about SOE coming in and "backing" the game.
I remember only little of the exact wording to be honest, but I clearly remember him saying: I am TIRED of...He was defending his reasons as to why he "allowed" Soe to come in with their big wallet...
A lot of us felt betrayed over the fact that SoE took over and destroyed everything VG could and I believe, would be, had they not done what they became (in)famous for: Destroying games. (in some peoples, among them mine, opinion)
The subject of Brad giving in to SoE and their demands back then, is a hotly contested topic on the boards of the gaming community i am a member of. We only too well remember what happened back then.
Soo, it took some time and a few videos/comments from Pantheons Dev team, to give us that small ounce of hope that we needed.
We just hope that Pantheon: Rise of the fallen, will be just "some" of what we hope it will be.
As it is right now. We have paid what we have for but a small hope. Our gaming communities that has a a lot of old EQ1 and VG players, all await our words as to what and how, this game will turn out. The term vapor ware, have frequently been used on those boards and in an effort to actually get this game running, my wife and I gave what we could afford (of our own pocket) to actually figure out what and how this game works.
So, hoping for the best, fearing the worst.
Velmeir.
i am here and paying money every month for a few reasons:
1. Brad was an integral part of making two of the best MMO's i have ever played. seeing his name on this project i immediately started donating.
2. all the other MMO's out right now are far too "Peewee softball" with an everyone gets a trophy mentality.
3. other MMO's focus only on the "Endgame" imo making their world like a game, rather than making their game like a world.
Xanier said:
xonth said:
I
I still support this game 100% but as far as trying to get others on board I’m pulling back a bit because I lost a lot of cred talking up this game only to have some of the decisions laid out as being a reversal on what I feel had been hinted at and what a ton of my raiding friends were looking for (no raid caps).
All I can say is I really hope they don’t try to tweak to many things people have not been asking for more than a year on this game.
I am just curious what stuff did they do a reversal on that bothered you?
I don't want to derail this thread.
Wow! There are a whole lot of reasons posted above that are the same as mine for backing Pantheon.
I think, for me, everything boils down to the one thing I want in a new mmorpg and that's it's ability to recapture the same feeling that EQ and VG gave me when I played them. Many of the reasons listed all contribute to that "experience" and no other mmo's that I know of were able to accomplish that the same way that EQ and VG did. I believe the reason those two games stood out is because of Brad McQuaid's involvement and now I'm banking on that to be the case.
I want EQ. I don't want a "modern interpretation of EQ's values". I want that kind of game down to every single tedious detail. Will I get that? I estimate about a 1 in 73,428 chance. Still. That's all I got anywhere. If I'm really lucky, like 1 in 500 lucky, I'll get something on par with VG which was only really about half the game EQ was but still probably my 3rd favorite MMORPG of all time. I'm guessing we may get a lesser game than both but if it hints at something in that direction there's still a better chance that I'll enjoy it than anything else on the horizon.
Someone mentioned people using VG as proof that no one wants an old school game. These are the same people that point out that the failures of games like Shadowbane and Darkfall are proof that no one wants a hardcore PvP game. The reality is no one wants an unfinished game with a clunky buggy client that makes just playing the game, in its unfinished state, even more unpleasant. The sad reality is, that because of how this game was initially marketed, a failure here will probably mean another decade or two with no EQ-like game. "YOU SEE GUYS, NO ONE LIKES THOSE STUPID OLD BORING GAMES LIKE EQ JUST LOOK AT HOW PANTHEON DID". Sigh : (
Exmortis said:
Easiest question ever asked:
EQ is not EQ its wow with a EQ face.
Vanguard was shut down.
Every other MMO is tripe.
Pantheon is my Obi Wan Kenobi, my only hope for one more MMO before I die.
Exmortis brother you dont look very old lol... Not that I dont want an MMO soon too but I hope you dont kick the can anytime soon lol
jezebel said:
I want EQ. I don't want a "modern interpretation of EQ's values". I want that kind of game down to every single tedious detail. Will I get that? I estimate about a 1 in 73,428 chance. Still. That's all I got anywhere. If I'm really lucky, like 1 in 500 lucky, I'll get something on par with VG which was only really about half the game EQ was but still probably my 3rd favorite MMORPG of all time. I'm guessing we may get a lesser game than both but if it hints at something in that direction there's still a better chance that I'll enjoy it than anything else on the horizon.
Someone mentioned people using VG as proof that no one wants an old school game. These are the same people that point out that the failures of games like Shadowbane and Darkfall are proof that no one wants a hardcore PvP game. The reality is no one wants an unfinished game with a clunky buggy client that makes just playing the game, in its unfinished state, even more unpleasant. The sad reality is, that because of how this game was initially marketed, a failure here will probably mean another decade or two with no EQ-like game. "YOU SEE GUYS, NO ONE LIKES THOSE STUPID OLD BORING GAMES LIKE EQ JUST LOOK AT HOW PANTHEON DID". Sigh : (
McQuaid has said on a couple of occasions now that he / they dreamed a little too large with Vanguard... and that doing so was a causal factor in the game's issues. He has also said that they will make new mistakes with Pantheon, but that they refuse to make old mistakes.
AND - he has said that Pantheon will have EQ and VG as the roots of the game to some degree in as much as the game will share a similar foundational heritage as those games... meaning it will be the same style of game.
Back when VG was in in this same sort of stage that Pantheon is now in - we were all calling it the spiritual successor to EQ. It was a McQuaid game after all... and it likely would have succeeded at that - and we all might be playing it today - if they hadn't "dreamed too large."
SO - Extending my commentary above that I expect McQuaid to go 3 for 3 - I think perhaps the better way to say that is that I'm hopeful that Pantheon will be the spiritual successor to EQ that VG was supposed to be - without the issues. (or at least the same issues if they succeed at not making the same mistakes)
Xanier said:
We need to guild when this thing go's live.. love your sense of humor!
:D Mostly just joking. I will definitely support this title as a customer, when the time comes.
This is an MMO that has to be made. I'm not into gimmicks and the genre needs to be saved from itself. If we can just have one quality mmo come to market that captures the social dynamic of EQ then it may make waves for future development. The whole demonizing of Brad is cute and the Vanguard situation was unfortunate, but really out of the hands of the developers. None of this matters when the game comes to market and its a success.
The videos show how much progress they have made and I have heard enough conversations with devs to know this is the game I want. So i choose to believe this over the comment of some internet naysayer.
I want another mmorpg that plays like a virtual world. I want to feel like my actions are being written into an epic novel, not just player520620395 doing the exact same thing that every player before me did in the exact same order, because thats the linear fashion the game was programmed to be played.
EQ had that open-ended feel, Vanguard had it as well, but beyond that very few games have been able to recreate it. A few "sandbox" (litterbox) games almost get it right, but then they fail to create enough content to make the game worth playing and instead unleash players upon each other to fight over a big pile of nothing.
This genre needs to reach its true potential, and for nearly a decade its only moved in the wrong direction. I'm not going to bash casual games because theres obviously a lot of people who enjoy them, but that massive success left people blind to the still large playerbase and millions of potential players who will enjoy a virtual world that plays out more like a fantasy novel than a shallow facebook grinder.
We need depth again. Real risk vs reward. We need options, and a world and its inhabitants that react differently to you based your decisions. We need the struggle to actually be real, because its that struggle that will forge a community.
Its my hope for those things that caused me to back Pantheon.