lotuss79 said:Eunichron, im sure they discussed the backlash in board meetings, that makes it all the more disappointing that they pulled what they did.
For months they were touting the 24/7 Pre Alpha testing that was on the horizon. They purposefully let the impression be that you could log in and play the Pantheon Pre Alpha MMO at any time.
This no doubt brought in new pledges and convinced current supporters to up their pledges to a Pre Alpha tier to get access to 24/7 testing. Knowing all along that instead of anytime access to the MMO, it was unlimited rounds of some mini extraction game they were making.
This was blatant deception. They type of thing you would expect from a mega corporation or a used car dealership.
So if you’re honestly wondering why people are having such a negative emotional reaction to this, its very simple. People don’t like being lied to and cheated.
I don't think it's nearly adequate but the new game mode was announced in July along with 24/7 and the game mode was very briefly mentioned in August. I'm not saying that they met their obligation entirely but it is unfair to say that they didn't state that 24/7 would be a new game mode. What I don't think there was but don't know first hand was a disclaimer that any new pledge would see. I do believe anyone who pledged since 247 was known should be able to have a refund.
Xerion said:
That was ultra sketchy what they did naming the game mode 247 so close to 24/7. They did that on purpose. That is what I would call be deceiving.
I mean, they may have started calling it 247 prior to the decision to monetize it because it is a natural code name for the game mode you specifically announced and created for 24/7 testing. Let's all remember Hanlon's Razor here guys.
There is enough to be angry about here without making accusations that can't be proven one way or the other. The confirmed truth is bad enough.
...
Maybe they should name it Gates of Reignfall?
It isn't an accusation it is a fact. Naming a game mode so close to something else is deceiving. You even just said it yourself "code" name, so even if someone sees 247 they probably think oh they made a mispelling they don't have the slash. Maybe they should call it anything that doesn't have the numbers 2 4 or 7 in it, or those numbers not in order either.
They haven't publicly called it anything that I can find. VIPs, the only ones who have access to the game mode were informed. I think we're on the same side of the argument regarding the new extraction mode. I just want to live by the rule that not every bad decision is malicious.
I'm an idiot. I still don't necessarily think they were being deceptive.
Xerion said:Edited my post. I had completely forgotten that Ben came out with a statement. Probably because it was completely inadequate. lol
What? Ben Dean put out a statement and called it 247. Did you miss the thread published earlier "Statement regarding leaks"? He calls it 247 like 3-4 times.
I think we're on the same page though. Anyone who pledged for pre-alpha thinking they were getting 24/7 patheon testing deserves a refund. I think they should have locked pledges until everything was announced.
justdrop said:Or we can not trust them which is the more logical decision.
No sense beating a dead horse justdrop, I too have lost all faith in them and don't believe I can trust a thing they say. As I'm sure lots of previously loyal supporters have. We know it, they know it, many of their supporters know it, as well as half the Internet gaming community.
But all the same, it is what it is, this is VR's badge to wear.
I am getting the Fortnite save the world vibes from all of the news I'm hearing. They took our money for Save the world game and then shifted focus to battleroyal to "help" bring money in to finish their original vision. Yessir, this is how I'm feeling now about Pantheon. Used and abandoned as of now.
Ruinar said:Xerion said:Edited my post. I had completely forgotten that Ben came out with a statement. Probably because it was completely inadequate. lol
What? Ben Dean put out a statement and called it 247. Did you miss the thread published earlier "Statement regarding leaks"? He calls it 247 like 3-4 times.
But at the time he released that statement the full leak was already out and everyone knew what 247 was, so not sure what the deception is. Again, I'm upset. I just think that all of this could also be explained by incompetance or stupidity.I think we're on the same page though. Anyone who pledged for pre-alpha thinking they were getting 24/7 patheon testing deserves a refund. I think they should have locked pledges until everything was announced.
Is a good question. How long ago did this go in a different direction. Baz stopped posting videos about 5 months ago. I often wondered why.
Savanja said:
At the time of releasing the information regarding 24/7 uptime, we said that it would be available via a new play mode, utilizing smaller doses of existing content.
Are you really making this excuse? That's completely disingenuous. You know full well that "new play mode" is extremely vague and can mean literally anything. Are you really going to pretend VR had transparency when announcing 247? Somehow people were just supposed to know the new mode has nothing to do with classically inspired mmos. Really telling on yourselves. What a complete lack of empathy and awareness. It's like all of you have learned nothing from this debacle. VR is in even worse state than I thought if they've learned absolutely nothing.
Duderino said:
Savanja said:At the time of releasing the information regarding 24/7 uptime, we said that it would be available via a new play mode, utilizing smaller doses of existing content.
Are you really making this excuse? That's completely disingenuous. You know full well that "new play mode" is extremely vague and can mean literally anything. Are you really going to pretend VR had transparency when announcing 247? Somehow people were just supposed to know the new mode has nothing to do with classically inspired mmos. Really telling on yourselves. What a complete lack of empathy and awareness. It's like all of you have learned nothing from this debacle. VR is in even worse state than I thought if they've learned absolutely nothing.
Actually, when I read that newsletter I assumed that the "new game mode" would be some sort of mini game that tests specific mechanics, etc... What I didn't expect was that it would turn into a whole new game. I also expected it to be optional while the full MMO would still be being tested.
eunichron said:justdrop said:No. It doesn't take ten years to understand something needs to be done. It doesn't take a leak to inform your community that you're moving in a different direction (temporarily, or otherwise) and it doesn't require you to go against what you've stated was the mission to accomplish. They chose this path.
One more response to you then I'm done feeding.
The leak came from a VIP. VR has been very clear that VIPs have always been privy to information before the general public, but they are not flies on the wall of VR's board meetings so to speak.So before you continue to hurl insults and ire at VR and the VIPs, ask yourself a few simple questions;
- Would you still be upset if you learned this information at the same time as the VIPs?
- Do you think the possible backlash wasn't discussed at those board meetings where they decided to move ahead with 247?
- Do you think VR would have chosen that path if they felt like they had any other option?
It's easy to sit there and bloviate and point fingers without a complete understanding of what's going on behind the curtain, let alone what's going on backstage (a side which none of us pledges get to see). Maybe instead of raging pointlessly on an Internet forum you should take some time and reflect on why you have such an emotional investment in this project.
To me it doesnt matter what is going on behind the curtain, as long as the development of the game I backed is still in process. What it sounds like has happened is that its no longer in progress and they are trying to cobble together code and assets to sell something else instead. I didnt pay $1000 to crowd fund some bullshit Fortnite clone.
Ruinar - "I also expected it to be optional while the full MMO would still be being tested."
Exactly this
Zorkon said:justdrop said:Or we can not trust them which is the more logical decision.
No sense beating a dead horse justdrop, I too have lost all faith in them and don't believe I can trust a thing they say. As I'm sure lots of previously loyal supporters have. We know it, they know it, many of their supporters know it, as well as half the Internet gaming community.
But all the same, it is what it is, this is VR's badge to wear.
There is sense in it. Every time someone attempts to let them squirm out of it, they must be reminded what has been done. There are only two words required now, accountability and reckoning. Unless the first occurs, the second is absolute.
arazons said:To me it doesnt matter what is going on behind the curtain, as long as the development of the game I backed is still in process. What it sounds like has happened is that its no longer in progress and they are trying to cobble together code and assets to sell something else instead. I didnt pay $1000 to crowd fund some bullshit Fortnite clone.
Hear hear!
Duderino said:Are you really making this excuse? That's completely disingenuous. You know full well that "new play mode" is extremely vague and can mean literally anything. Are you really going to pretend VR had transparency when announcing 247? Somehow people were just supposed to know the new mode has nothing to do with classically inspired mmos. Really telling on yourselves. What a complete lack of empathy and awareness. It's like all of you have learned nothing from this debacle. VR is in even worse state than I thought if they've learned absolutely nothing. Well said Duderino. We all know VR is failing on whatever goal they have set for getting Pantheon to release. I can forgive that... I have forgiven that! But the lack of honesty with us is crushing me.Savanja said:At the time of releasing the information regarding 24/7 uptime, we said that it would be available via a new play mode, utilizing smaller doses of existing content.
NegativeNRG said:Well said Duderino. We all know VR is failing on whatever goal they have set for getting Pantheon to release. I can forgive that... I have forgiven that! But the lack of honesty with us is crushing me. This is what's getting to me, too. I had VR's back on Reddit and these forums, but lately I don't even want to look at them, let alone post on them. I'm willing to accept the art style changes, I'm even willing to accept the extraction mode, assuming it actually brings the game out faster, but at this point I find it almost impossible to believe a word that any VR employee says. Every post they make I'm trying to read between the lines and figure out what they actually mean, instead of the words they are saying. They need to rebuild trust and open back up with the community. People are much more willing to accept mistakes and changes when you're honest with them. This whole "247" thing was an evil little game someone cooked up, in a meeting room somewhere and they actually made the decision to go with the sneaky, slimy approach of announcing it. Whoever thought up the idea to call the new game mode 247 after knowing it wasn't anything to do with the 24/7 prealpha testing of the MMORPG, needs to never make any public facing decision, ever again. It was deceitful, dishonest and quite frankly disgusting. You need to open up VR. Start putting out regular videos again. Start telling the truth to the community. Stop using subterfuge and tricks when announcing things. People might not accept every change you make with open arms, but they'll certainly accept it better, when you're honest about changes and the reason you are making them. The second you get caught in a lie "THIS HAPPENS". Stop sending sav in to try to defend VR's position about this debacle in forums, if you don't see that it's just causing more damage, you're blind. Admit your mistakes and grow up and move on and do what needs to be done to get this game to completion, otherwise a community funded game isn't going much of anywhere, without a community.Duderino said:Are you really making this excuse? That's completely disingenuous. You know full well that "new play mode" is extremely vague and can mean literally anything. Are you really going to pretend VR had transparency when announcing 247? Somehow people were just supposed to know the new mode has nothing to do with classically inspired mmos. Really telling on yourselves. What a complete lack of empathy and awareness. It's like all of you have learned nothing from this debacle. VR is in even worse state than I thought if they've learned absolutely nothing.Savanja said:At the time of releasing the information regarding 24/7 uptime, we said that it would be available via a new play mode, utilizing smaller doses of existing content.
arazons said: To me it doesnt matter what is going on behind the curtain, as long as the development of the game I backed is still in process. What it sounds like has happened is that its no longer in progress and they are trying to cobble together code and assets to sell something else instead. I didnt pay $1000 to crowd fund some bullshit Fortnite clone.Sounds like that to me... *sad face* I guess we find out in the Producer's Letter Thursday, Oct. 26.
Prevenge said: This is what's getting to me, too. I had VR's back on Reddit and these forums, but lately I don't even want to look at them, let alone post on them. I'm willing to accept the art style changes, I'm even willing to accept the extraction mode, assuming it actually brings the game out faster, but at this point I find it almost impossible to believe a word that any VR employee says. Every post they make I'm trying to read between the lines and figure out what they actually mean, instead of the words they are saying. They need to rebuild trust and open back up with the community. People are much more willing to accept mistakes and changes when you're honest with them. This whole "247" thing was an evil little game someone cooked up, in a meeting room somewhere and they actually made the decision to go with the sneaky, slimy approach of announcing it. Whoever thought up the idea to call the new game mode 247 after knowing it wasn't anything to do with the 24/7 prealpha testing of the MMORPG, needs to never make any public facing decision, ever again. It was deceitful, dishonest and quite frankly disgusting. You need to open up VR. Start putting out regular videos again. Start telling the truth to the community. Stop using subterfuge and tricks when announcing things. People might not accept every change you make with open arms, but they'll certainly accept it better, when you're honest about changes and the reason you are making them. The second you get caught in a lie "THIS HAPPENS". Stop sending sav in to try to defend VR's position about this debacle in forums, if you don't see that it's just causing more damage, you're blind. Admit your mistakes and grow up and move on and do what needs to be done to get this game to completion, otherwise a community funded game isn't going much of anywhere, without a community.Well said.
Prevenge said This is what's getting to me, too. I had VR's back on Reddit and these forums, but lately I don't even want to look at them, let alone post on them. I'm willing to accept the art style changes, I'm even willing to accept the extraction mode, assuming it actually brings the game out faster, but at this point I find it almost impossible to believe a word that any VR employee says. Every post they make I'm trying to read between the lines and figure out what they actually mean, instead of the words they are saying. They need to rebuild trust and open back up with the community. People are much more willing to accept mistakes and changes when you're honest with them. This whole "247" thing was an evil little game someone cooked up, in a meeting room somewhere and they actually made the decision to go with the sneaky, slimy approach of announcing it. Whoever thought up the idea to call the new game mode 247 after knowing it wasn't anything to do with the 24/7 prealpha testing of the MMORPG, needs to never make any public facing decision, ever again. It was deceitful, dishonest and quite frankly disgusting. You need to open up VR. Start putting out regular videos again. Start telling the truth to the community. Stop using subterfuge and tricks when announcing things. People might not accept every change you make with open arms, but they'll certainly accept it better, when you're honest about changes and the reason you are making them. The second you get caught in a lie "THIS HAPPENS". Stop sending sav in to try to defend VR's position about this debacle in forums, if you don't see that it's just causing more damage, you're blind. Admit your mistakes and grow up and move on and do what needs to be done to get this game to completion, otherwise a community funded game isn't going much of anywhere, without a community.
When it comes to communication, its all Ben Dean.
Pointing out the scene in front of us I explained it this way. “You see the escalators and stairs over there. Think of talent and competency this way. We all start on this level and the goal is to achieve competency which is the next level up. Now you can take three paths to get there and those paths represent your talent level. If you have a high level of talent for the competency you are trying to achieve then it is kind of like riding up the up escalator. There is just not a lot of work involved and your path to competency requires little effort and it is fairly quick. If your talent level is fairly normal, like most people, your path to competency is like walking up the stairs. You can certainly get there, and it is not difficult, but it does require some effort and work on your part. Now if your talent is low for the competency you are trying to achieve then it is like running up the down escalator. You can get there but you are going to work hard, it is going to take longer, and if you stop or give up you are likely going back down.”
I am no different than most people. I tend to react with a negative emotion when I truly don't understand a decision I don't like.
But, now I understand!
The team at VR isn't riding up the escalator. This team has been running up the down escalator for a very long time!
Although I am no longer happy with the product. I think we should applaud them. It is truly amazing they have gotten this far! Duderino said:
Savanja said:At the time of releasing the information regarding 24/7 uptime, we said that it would be available via a new play mode, utilizing smaller doses of existing content.
Are you really making this excuse? That's completely disingenuous. You know full well that "new play mode" is extremely vague and can mean literally anything. Are you really going to pretend VR had transparency when announcing 247? Somehow people were just supposed to know the new mode has nothing to do with classically inspired mmos. Really telling on yourselves. What a complete lack of empathy and awareness. It's like all of you have learned nothing from this debacle. VR is in even worse state than I thought if they've learned absolutely nothing.
A lot of assumptions have been made in regard to the intent and implementation of the 24/7 play mode and I understand the upset. We are using a testing mode in NDA-protected pre-alpha testing session. This testing mode is testing primarily MMO mechanics. No decisions have been made regarding the use of this testing mode beyond that. Information is planned to be released as it becomes relevant. We release information to the VIPs while it is being considered to gain feedback, and that will likely continue to be the case.