https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/_2022/april/combat-improvements/
/edit - summarised concerns from threa. Will update again if anything new substantial.
Aim is to highlight concerns and ideas on how to avoid / mitigate.
Concern Explaination Possible solutions
Non tactical Actions Per Second/ rotations undesirable Long cooldowns
Decay of resource May encourage constanct combat Make resource not decay
Another resource bar May make UI / Play too complex Could merge into stamina, long cooldown abilities.
Feature creap Delays in Alpha Leave until after Alpha
Balancing One wepon inevitably 'best' for class reducing choice ?
Class distinction Weapon abilities could blur class lines Limit abilities / long cooldowns
Inventory managment Multiple weapon sets taking up inventory Alternate storage
Casters Lack of casters having equivilent Have synergising rods/wand etc.
While keeping an open mind I perceive a few issues. My initial though is that it seems like a modified version of Guild Wars 2's weapon systems. While it can feel like you are gaining more options, it can also become restrictive depending on the techniques each weapon may have. Once all techniques are known, class/weapon match-ups can be just another form of gear score when choosing who you want in your group for said dungeon/raid. I don't want to be pigeon holed into an archetype simply because it becomes FOTM or BIS. I neither wish to become discluded because I chose a different path nor be forced to level a weapon because everyone else said it was the best.
Edit for grammar
I guess I have a few other thoughts. Having to possibly carry at least 1 other weapon, more if you are of the boyscout/Macgyver type like myself, will take up considerable precious bag space. Unless we will have some sort of bandolier gear slot or a UI paper doll weapon swap.
Also I would be remiss if I did not mention that several if not all classes will now have 4 resource bars to keep track of. Health/Mana/Stamina/Readiness. Plus the 1-5 other health bars healers will need to keep track of in a group. My UI portrait is becoming a bit crowded.
I was also a bit divided on this, but after reading over it again it actually seems really great, the article states:
"All Techniques utilize Readiness as a resource, which accrues slowly over time and can be further accelerated by dealing damage through auto-attacks as well as receiving damage. Readiness can be stored to unleash more powerful Techniques, or to execute lower-cost Techniques in devastating combos either alone or with teammates."
Which makes it sound more like a ‘Special’ bar, than other resources that build the same way like ‘Rage’ in WoW. I don’t think it’s the kind of resource you need to be watching constantly because it’s jumping between 0-100 every other skill use. More likely to just notice when it reaches certain thresholds for either small or big skills uses. And probably holding on to it for key moments, like finishing off a mob that’s about to run for help, or in case of adds or CC breaks.
In terms of having to carry additional weapons with you, this system doesn’t really change anything. Some skills already give bonuses depending on what type you have equipped, like the passive effects from the Rogue’s Ambidextrous. Or just having them on you to not let your skills fall too far behind. Other skills already had weapon restrictions anyway. Like the Rogue’s Backstab:
The tooltip from the Evaluation build gameplay showed it ‘requires a piercing weapon’. So needing to equip a specific weapon to use a skill was already in the game. But it could mean that backstab becomes a technique exclusive to the Rogue, that can be learned/used with piercing weapons and require readiness. Instead of just being a trained class skill with a cooldown. If anything, it seems like it would be LESS spammable.
Finally, the part that REALLY got me excited about this system was this:
"We want players in Pantheon to be excited at the prospect of acquiring a new weapon not only for its damage and stats, but for the ways that weapon intersects with their playstyle. Some weapons may even allow players to wield special Techniques only available through that specific item!"
Before anyone starts thinking “Oh no, Warriors are going to get Mez and Wizards will be able to heal!”, don’t forget weapons have Race/Class restrictions on them, and it would go against the class identity VR was just talking about in that section. Adding another layer of choice for upgrades and things to discover just makes it sound so much more fun too. Do you take the sword with a tasty proc, or clicky effect? The dagger with really beefy stats on it? The weapon with the best damage/speed ratio? The mace that gives you a super neat skill? Or maybe just the one that looks really cool?
I am skeptical for a couple reasons. As Xanafel already mentioned it sounds a lot like GW2 and I was not a fan of its use in that game. I am also not that into being expected by the game to carry a massive amount of gear around.
I realize though that just because my past experience with this mechanic was not to my liking dose not mean it could not be developed in a way I would like. In short, I will hold my judgment until I get to try it.
Another thought is about the Readiness bar. If this acts like rage in other games it can encourage a player to never pause. One of the things I am looking forward to Pantheon is downtime between encounters with a chance to get to know my group members again. This is all just speculation though as I have no idea if this new resource will work like this or not.
Hmm yea I share the reservations as the rest of you and also have my fanboi hope of them staying true to the vision so I dunno.
On the flip side of "We want players in Pantheon to be excited at the prospect of acquiring a new weapon not only for its damage and stats, but for the ways that weapon intersects with their playstyle"
is the
"I want to use a sword but my dislike of sword techniques outweighs my sword character image so I won't use one and I lose out on the fantasy"
I've been worried lately of the seemingly ever increasing lean towards mainstream appeal and I don't want to play an Arcade button mashing MMO like all the rest.
Seems like they have reduced time to kill, which combined with more abilities like this to look at, appeals to the frenetic twitchy playstyle as apposed to slower calculated use of skills.
I want slower fights with more thought between skill use, with resource management a high priority and downtime a reality of life.
Yay for more feature creep! This will get added to the Road to Alpha list then? Back up to 22 things left if that ends up being true.
Vandraad said:Yay for more feature creep! This will get added to the Road to Alpha list then? Back up to 22 things left if that ends up being true.
Exactly my thoughts on it. If not feature creep then why are we just hearing about it.
Does this now disqualify the road map as just hype?
Techniques offering more flexibility without obliterating class distinction sound good. Just beware of the system stacking that contributed to WoW's decline...
Zorkon said:Exactly my thoughts on it. If not feature creep then why are we just hearing about it.
Does this now disqualify the road map as just hype?
We aren't just hearing about it.
Joppa brought this up in the Developer Live Stream on Dec 9th.
https://youtu.be/9y7ZnFZ7KSA?t=1139
It's just the first time they've revealed how skills are more meaningful.
Zorkon said:Vandraad said:Yay for more feature creep! This will get added to the Road to Alpha list then? Back up to 22 things left if that ends up being true.
Exactly my thoughts on it. If not feature creep then why are we just hearing about it.
Does this now disqualify the road map as just hype?
Not the first time we have heard about this. Back in the "Forging Terminus Developer Livestream" posted on December 9, 2019, Joppa mentioned that weapon type and skill would go much deeper than just hiting a target. He said that this would be unpacked in the new year, and here we are.
Here is the link to that video Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen – Forging Terminus Developer Live Stream - YouTube he starts talking about this at the 17.50 mark.
As for the road map to alpha, I doubt weapon skills change anything there. However, it may create new milestones goals that have to be hit druing alpha.
It should allow for some classes to keep a lower ressource generation / consumption and more tactical use than dumping it in "avaliable and keypressed" ones.
I would also see it close to the endurance added in late eq eras, except attacking would give it a pinch and resting could / should be tje main regeneration way so it align melee classes with mana classes on the resting side.
Lafael said:I think seeing it in action, along with visual explanations, may assist with addressing concerns.
I'm waiting for this before coming to any conclusion.
Yeah man, I agree.. But I also think it's best to come out with a fire hose on this one and explain/elaborate sooner rather than later.. There is a lot of sass coming out from broader community about this.. worth flexing some transparency on the system.
Oakenaire said:Zorkon said:Exactly my thoughts on it. If not feature creep then why are we just hearing about it.
Does this now disqualify the road map as just hype?
We aren't just hearing about it.
Joppa brought this up in the Developer Live Stream on Dec 9th.https://youtu.be/9y7ZnFZ7KSA?t=1139
It's just the first time they've revealed how skills are more meaningful.
FatedEmperor said:Zorkon said:Vandraad said:Yay for more feature creep! This will get added to the Road to Alpha list then? Back up to 22 things left if that ends up being true.
Exactly my thoughts on it. If not feature creep then why are we just hearing about it.
Does this now disqualify the road map as just hype?
Not the first time we have heard about this. Back in the "Forging Terminus Developer Livestream" posted on December 9, 2019, Joppa mentioned that weapon type and skill would go much deeper than just hiting a target. He said that this would be unpacked in the new year, and here we are.
Here is the link to that video Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen – Forging Terminus Developer Live Stream - YouTube he starts talking about this at the 17.50 mark.
As for the road map to alpha, I doubt weapon skills change anything there. However, it may create new milestones goals that have to be hit druing alpha.
@ Oakenaire and FatedEmperor
Thanks for the link, I guess that must have went over my head when I watched that streem and I missed it. I stand corrected
I think it's great.
I look forward to the added depth that different weapon types will have.
I look forward to the added depth that classes and archetypes will have with techniques that are shared amongst all weapons.
I look forward to weapons being more meaningful to casters and not just items for stats.
I look forward to the additional ways that special items will be differentiated, not just by stats or passive effect or procs but also by the techniques they have access to; or also potentially unique techniques bound to that particular named weapon .
I think this is a really good decision, it looks to be taking ideas from games like Breath of the Wild and Guild Wars 2 but moulding them into something that works with Pantheon.
More meaningful choices, class-player differentiation, playstyle building and tactical gameplay.
I'm unsurprised at the closed-mindedness from some people and who those people are. Shame.
FatedEmperor said:e have heard about this. Back in the "Forging Terminus Developer Livestream" posted on December 9, 2019, Joppa mentioned that weapon type and skill would go much deeper than just hiting a target. He said that this would be unpacked in the new year, and here we are.
Here is the link to that video Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen – Forging Terminus Developer Live Stream - YouTube he starts talking about this at the 17.50 mark.
As for the road map to alpha, I doubt weapon skills change anything there. However, it may create new milestones goals that have to be hit druing alpha.
philo said:This is stereotypical feature creep.
IMO:
Correct. Agreed.
And what are casters going to get that will be similar or commensurate? I've seen no indication there is anything.
Will all classes be able to swap weapons in combat? If not, why not? If so, what does this do to the LAS hotbar, when you switch?
Will some classes still be able to remove themselves from combat, voluntarily, and switch their LAS loadout? But not all classes?
These are massive consequential changes that should have been part of the core design many years ago.
And once again, we have another decision that intentionally creates friction between an exsting system and a new.
Instead of removing LAS and simply adding weapon-specific abilities, you double down on this historically proven terrible LAS, and add another combat system which has failed to be positive in any other game that has tried it. Huzzah? Congrats? Did you learn nothing from New World, SOTA, and all the rest that have come before you with this nonsense?
Lets not forgot that many classes are very limited in their weapon types. Clerics? Blunt only. So unless the weapon itself (Mace) has different techniques from (Club) or (Hammer) then what is the #%&@% point? They are all blunt weapons.
Historically, casters have far lower weapon skill caps than melee. If that too is in Pantheon then any techniques tied to a weapon are going to have a vastly reduced benefits because you're just whiffing, or barely hitting at all, on most of your attacks.
vjek said:Instead of removing LAS and simply adding weapon-specific abilities, you double down on this historically proven terrible LAS, and add another combat system which has failed to be positive in any other game that has tried it. Huzzah? Congrats? Did you learn nothing from New World, SOTA, and all the rest that have come before you with this nonsense?
Of course they didn't.
Okay sure, I have thoughts. Random, chaotic thoughts.
I'm not seeing the GW2 comparison, and I played that game for several years (and have no interest anymore). Adding a weapon changed your entire action bar irrevocably until you swapped again. It wasn't "I can add this ability to my bar" but "I am a creature of longsword now and I am stuck with this recklessly unintiutive order of abilities".
I am a caster who strongly dislikes having to melee. It doesn't fit my class fantasy at all. A sorcerer suddenly going "and now I shall strike my enemy about the face and shoulders with my magic staff" makes no sense to me, and it certainly isn't fun. I'm more of the "Blood Mage in Vanguard uses magic for both attack and healing and they are intertwined" philosophy.
So how does this idea feel? I don't know. I understand that they're trying to make combat interesting and personally configurable without making it all speedyclicky, and I very much hope they can achieve the holy grail of avoiding silly meta toolbars that you Have To Use or You Are Wrong. But as a healer who will not be a Cleric, I'm trying to visualize things like
We really don't know until we try it. Until testers are in there going either "Wow, this is really cool actually" or "I'm not feeling it" (probably some of both), then there's not way to tell. Just because I can't visualize how it would work doesn't mean I wouldn't think it's awesome in practice. But I'm having trouble imagining at this point how it would feel in the game.
Another thing still on my mind is that Vanguard created a class system in which you already felt your class identity before level 10 with about as many abilities as we have in Pantheon LAS. Bards were already composing songs, etc. Just a short time in your class and it's fun and interesting and you are swimming in that identity. You didn't need three bars to feel it, it was there almost out of the gate.
I do love the idea, the image, the feel of slamming a staff on the ground and spreading Nature Itself around you to thwart your enemies. I'd love to see how that would work. But again, the waiting to see.
The thing I wonder about is, the balance between melee and caster. The melee role is very weapon dependent. That makes sense. I applaud it. The caster might be weapon dependent based on the stats the weapon the brings. I am hoping that as a Shaman I won't be melee dependent. I can see different weapon styles giving me different body effects while casting. Good. I'm of the mindset that my Shaman will spend most of my combat time healing/debuffing/dotting. Am I now supposed to be whacking the mob too? My Shaman would probably do negligible melee damage. This based on poor weapon skill plus my quarter staff is not the weapon equal to a dual dagger wielding Rogue. Is that melee a good use of my combat time? I'm also still a little confused by the removal of spell crits but now an addition of more variety of damage done by melee types. I do continue to need more info about this part of life on Terminus. Where does this fit in on the roadmap. I want more info. I'll wait for that.
I am exited for this and it sounds interesting, though I will have to actually try it to to know for sure. I like the idea of adding more variation within classes (so long as several options are viable). It adds replayability to a class and adds a very visually obvious way to let players create distinct characters. I want a game where simply knowing someone's class isn't enough to really know how they will play.
In far too many games, weapons are basically interchangeable and the only real difference is damage. I do hope that it's designed so each character only focuses on two or three weapon types, and isn't something that allows / encourages everyone to Swiss Army knife their build.
Crowsinger said:Counterfleche said:I want a game where simply knowing someone's class isn't enough to really know how they will play.
Definitely this
As long as the class archtype is still true. A tank should always be able to tank and a healer should always be able to heal. I found it furstrating in WoW need to not just ask for a fighter or healer but instead aksing for the build of a healer or a tank. if the game allows people to turn a healer into a DPS caster then why have classes at all.