As long as the class archtype is still true. A tank should always be able to tank and a healer should always be able to heal. I found it furstrating in WoW need to not just ask for a fighter or healer but instead aksing for the build of a healer or a tank. if the game allows people to turn a healer into a DPS caster then why have classes at all.
I very much agree with this as well. But how one wields an array nature-based healing and buffing magic could vary greatly between druids. I would like to see some freedom of choice within the archetype, but definitely yes, a druid is a healer.
I am in agreement with most people. This is bad in many ways and good in 0 ways.
It will force people to use 1 weapon type because after 20+ years we all know that they won't be balanced. This causes many issues within itself. 1. Now boss/named NPC will get camped even harder and others will be ignored. 2. Crafting... 3. appearances.
I thought the reason for the Limited Action bars was so we could get 500000 spells/abilities but need to choose the ones that fit the situation. Why limit the overall number?
A good core game does not need fluff on top of it, in fact it takes away from it.
There is so much work to be done on class design (the most important part of a game) it is frustrating to hear about features like this taking up man hours.
I'll wait to actually see it before believing it, but I wasn't a fan of GW2 weapon system because it forced me to use a single weapon type as a warrior (and made the game very boring for me once I learned that I was a warrior that was only effective with a greatsword)... if a weapon wasn't a greatsword, I didn't even bother looking at it because I didn't like the skills of the other weapons. If this system is similar, in that all X weapons have XYZ skills, and you can never use ABC skills unless you played in a way that you don't want, that's going to create a lot of heartache (ESPECIALLY as a warrior - who is supposed to be the master of all weaponry). If the system however was more simplistic than GW2, it could be great to have a COUPLE of non-class specific skills to add to your LAS. i.e. "sharp" weapons have ABC skills while "blunt" weapons have XYZ and the player can select between 1-2 of those specific skills (based on item quality) to put on their LAS for that equiped weapon... and you can't change the selected skill while in combat (if you change weapons the skill could gray out). With that system, I would be ok with wands and staves having an "attack" feature that allowed say a wizard to cast some cantrip. Going overboard with more than 1-2 skills defeats the purpose of LAS IMO and in some cases can really restrict a player's choice of items (which is a game killer in a game that rewards players with items).
Either way, it is incredible scope creep and I "personally" feel the game would be fine without it. -_-
As I read and consider the more concerned I am. I still know very little and that limits my ability to form an informed opinion. But with the information I do have my concerns are growing.
To list my concerns
While I am concerned about all these, I am also interested to learn more. Most if not all the above concerns could easily be resolved in my mind by just knowing more. But it is a growing list and I would be dishonest if I did not admit it concerns me.
MFR1 said:I am in agreement with most people. This is bad in many ways and good in 0 ways.
It will force people to use 1 weapon type because after 20+ years we all know that they won't be balanced. This causes many issues within itself. 1. Now boss/named NPC will get camped even harder and others will be ignored. 2. Crafting... 3. appearances.
I thought the reason for the Limited Action bars was so we could get 500000 spells/abilities but need to choose the ones that fit the situation. Why limit the overall number?
A good core game does not need fluff on top of it, in fact it takes away from it.
There is so much work to be done on class design (the most important part of a game) it is frustrating to hear about features like this taking up man hours.
That is your personal opinion only to not see any positives.
I don't think your personal opinion matches the majority at all, I thinbk you're actually a vocal minority.
I think you have made a very poorly informed take on things, you're backing up your personal opinion and feelings with hyperbole and extremism.
Susurrus said:
- Being incentivized to quickly move from fight to fight
I know it said this bar will increase over time and with attacks...but was there something that implied that it would also decrease over time while out of combat? It seems reasonable for it to just stay put out of combat, which would alleviate this specific concern. Obviously I have no clue how it'll actually work, just brainstorming.
@Ranarius – My concern is based on past experience with other games. This sounds a lot like rage for example. But you are right it could just as easily be planed on working the way you describe. I hope they give more details so I can better understand. This feels like a new idea though and I would not be surprised if they are still working out the details themselves.
Ezrael said:MFR1 said:I am in agreement with most people. This is bad in many ways and good in 0 ways.
It will force people to use 1 weapon type because after 20+ years we all know that they won't be balanced. This causes many issues within itself. 1. Now boss/named NPC will get camped even harder and others will be ignored. 2. Crafting... 3. appearances.
I thought the reason for the Limited Action bars was so we could get 500000 spells/abilities but need to choose the ones that fit the situation. Why limit the overall number?
A good core game does not need fluff on top of it, in fact it takes away from it.
There is so much work to be done on class design (the most important part of a game) it is frustrating to hear about features like this taking up man hours.
That is your personal opinion only to not see any positives.
I don't think your personal opinion matches the majority at all, I thinbk you're actually a vocal minority.
I think you have made a very poorly informed take on things, you're backing up your personal opinion and feelings with hyperbole and extremism.
Susurrus said:As long as the class archtype is still true. A tank should always be able to tank and a healer should always be able to heal. I found it furstrating in WoW need to not just ask for a fighter or healer but instead aksing for the build of a healer or a tank. if the game allows people to turn a healer into a DPS caster then why have classes at all.
I completely agree. Furthermore, I think the LAS design ensures this. A healer will always have heal spells. They may have non-heal builds, but they will still have heals and can easily switch. The only real problems will be 1) not being able to switch mid-fight and 2) the occasional obstinate or RP purist who simply refuses to use their class-defining abilities.
@Counterfleche – You make a good point about them still having there healing spells. Just brainstorming here though. Let’s say a player rolls a cleric and decided to ignore the healing side and focuses on all the DPS. With this weapon Techniques they will have the abilities to work with all they need to do is focus their stats on DPS and not on healing. With this hypothetical scenario even if they did switch back to healing spells they would suck.
Disclaimer: my entire opinion is based on very little info that could be all wrong
Like most future possibilities, this system could turn out wonderful or terrible. I see no reason to assume either outcome at this point, though I personally find that choosing optimism just generally makes me happier on a day to day basis. Obviously, some members strongly disagree with that approach.
What I believe to be the most significant question to get answered by VR (assuming we haven't heard one that I just missed) is this:
Will all characters be able to switch weapons while in combat and if so, what are the restrictions - if any - on doing so?
If the anwer is yes, then Techniques add much greater complexity (and risk of making combat faster and 'twitchier') than if the answer is no.
Does this then mean that NPCs wielding specific weapons will have the associated techniques at their disposal? Same question but applied to charmed and summoned pets. Also, if a player disarms an NPC, charms it, hands over one or two weapons that incorporate techniques, and then breaks charm...to what extent will that NPC encounter be altered? What would stop a high level player from entering a low level dungeon and giving weapons to all of the mobs in order to up the difficulty/grief new players? If someone is slaughtering the guards in my city, can I deck them out with these weapons and not get petitioned for it?
I don't think we know if players can even give charmed npcs items. I think we know a little about summoned pets, but I don't remember hearing anything about charmed pets having an invenstory that we can manipulate.
But, with that said, if it is possible, that's pretty cool right? It's one way to deal with an encounter that is creative.
As far as the griefing part goes, I wouldn't consider that grief at all, I'd be SO excited that these lower level mobs all of a sudden dropped high level items, JACKPOT. Hehe
Leevolen said:Does this then mean that NPCs wielding specific weapons will have the associated techniques at their disposal? Same question but applied to charmed and summoned pets. Also, if a player disarms an NPC, charms it, hands over one or two weapons that incorporate techniques, and then breaks charm...to what extent will that NPC encounter be altered? What would stop a high level player from entering a low level dungeon and giving weapons to all of the mobs in order to up the difficulty/grief new players? If someone is slaughtering the guards in my city, can I deck them out with these weapons and not get petitioned for it?
I would assume that NPCs (or at least certain NPCs) wielding specific weapons would have access to those weapon abilities. I assume this based on Joppa's statement regarding the relation of NPC abilities to player abilities. A shaman NPC will have access to familiar spells that a player-controlled shaman is able to use (there could be additional mob abilities not available to players). I would assume this design philosophy also extends weapon abilities.
Charmed pets are where things get complicated. The pet system is supposed to allow summoners a high level of customization. Summoner players will have to put in points, equip their pet with armor... etc. It is supposed to be like leveling up a second entity in addition to the player. The necromancer is also suppose to experience some level of customization when it comes to their pets. I don't think there has been any word on shaman animals or Hirode for the druids. Likewise not much has been said about charmed pets.
I think it was mentioned that players could equip charmed pets, but because of the nature of charmed pets, their level of customization wouldn't be as extensive as the summoner. I would assume that charmed pets could use weapon skills if that specific charmed pet had a high enough weapon skill, or if the weapon that was given to them bypasses requirement (like a summoned weapon maybe). I don't think that charmed pets are able to be leveled in the same way as summoned pets, and their skill level with certain weapons may be locked based on mob and level. This means that if you can give them a weapon, and that weapon skill requires a certain level of proficiency to use, that pet may not have access to it. Some of this also depends on how weapons skills are implemented and tied to skill level.
I think they are still waiting to dive into the pet system. It is something that is supposed to come after the networking stack. When they dive into how it works, I am sure they will probably mention how the systems affects certain classes, and how other systems like weapon skills tie into the system.
Susurrus said:@Counterfleche – You make a good point about them still having there healing spells. Just brainstorming here though. Let’s say a player rolls a cleric and decided to ignore the healing side and focuses on all the DPS. With this weapon Techniques they will have the abilities to work with all they need to do is focus their stats on DPS and not on healing. With this hypothetical scenario even if they did switch back to healing spells they would suck.
In this scenario, yes, a player can have their entire character spec'd and geared for DPS, in which case they would be sub-standard in their class-defining role. Of course, a character can be sub-standard for many other reasons as well. I think the trade-off of having added intra-class diversification and increased personalization.
So long as there is still an expectation that a character can adequately fill their role and anyone who can't will mention it when joining a group, I don't think it will be an issue. But this is all speculation based on limited information.
Ranarius said:But, with that said, if it is possible, that's pretty cool right? It's one way to deal with an encounter that is creative.As far as the griefing part goes, I wouldn't consider that grief at all, I'd be SO excited that these lower level mobs all of a sudden dropped high level items, JACKPOT. Hehe
FatedEmperor said:I would assume that NPCs (or at least certain NPCs) wielding specific weapons would have access to those weapon abilities. I assume this based on Joppa's statement regarding the relation of NPC abilities to player abilities. A shaman NPC will have access to familiar spells that a player-controlled shaman is able to use (there could be additional mob abilities not available to players). I would assume this design philosophy also extends weapon abilities.
FatedEmperor said:Summoner players will have to put in points, equip their pet with armor... etc. It is supposed to be like leveling up a second entity in addition to the player.
FatedEmperor said:I would assume that charmed pets could use weapon skills if that specific charmed pet had a high enough weapon skill, or if the weapon that was given to them bypasses requirement (like a summoned weapon maybe). I don't think that charmed pets are able to be leveled in the same way as summoned pets, and their skill level with certain weapons may be locked based on mob and level. This means that if you can give them a weapon, and that weapon skill requires a certain level of proficiency to use, that pet may not have access to it. Some of this also depends on how weapons skills are implemented and tied to skill level.
FatedEmperor said:I think they are still waiting to dive into the pet system. It is something that is supposed to come after the networking stack. When they dive into how it works, I am sure they will probably mention how the systems affects certain classes, and how other systems like weapon skills tie into the system.
Sorry,
But, this is JUST another way to waste your resources ADDING, ANOTHER facet to the game that isnt needed. Stop trying to be so different, yet the same. Get the core game out. I feel like every time we feel we are going to get closer to Alpha, you add SOMETHING else and push "stuff" back further. I feel like we are being placed yet again in "Carrot on a stick" mode.
Here are my concerns beyond what I just stated.
1) ANOTHER resource to manage. This totally IMHO is just going to take away from immersion, which is the opposite of what the original "vision" is supposed to be. I want to lose myself in this game and forget Im playing a game but be partaking in a world.
2) Balance issues. One more feature to have to work out balance issues. Think of a brand new car with all kinds of really neat features and that also means alot more *stuff* to worry about breaking and having to fix. Not to mention tweak to get right, which not only pushes launch back but everything between now and then, AS WELL as once launched... having issues pop up that are unforseen that need tweaking, nerfing or just plain taken out of the game.
3) Fun Factor. How is this really going to contribute to having FUN. THAT is what games are about isnt it? Does this REALLY add to making the game more interesting or tedious? THAT my friends is the question that should be asked.
Not being one to just complain about issues, I also feel compelled to give ideas as to how to better handle this. Solutions, so to speak. Keep this as an add on idea with a future expansion. BUT instead of how it currently is being explained with a resource pool and something ya you may need to add to a hot bar, taking up a spot you may want for more important abilities or spells... make it an AA type system or ability tree. When you level you can put XP into points and give your class flavor, distinguishability and playstyle by your choices taken, be it; weapon, spell or ability enhancements.
OK thats my 2 copper....
Jothany said:
Like most future possibilities, this system could turn out wonderful or terrible. I see no reason to assume either outcome at this point, though I personally find that choosing optimism just generally makes me happier on a day to day basis.
This, yes. I agree.
I don't think we know if players can even give charmed npcs items. I think we know a little about summoned pets, but I don't remember hearing anything about charmed pets having an invenstory that we can manipulate.
"Thanks for the new sword, boss..."
Charmed skelly begins attacking you with it
vigilantee13 said:Sorry,
But, this is JUST another way to waste your resources ADDING, ANOTHER facet to the game that isnt needed. Stop trying to be so different, yet the same. Get the core game out. I feel like every time we feel we are going to get closer to Alpha, you add SOMETHING else and push "stuff" back further. I feel like we are being placed yet again in "Carrot on a stick" mode.
Here are my concerns beyond what I just stated.
1) ANOTHER resource to manage. This totally IMHO is just going to take away from immersion, which is the opposite of what the original "vision" is supposed to be. I want to lose myself in this game and forget Im playing a game but be partaking in a world.
2) Balance issues. One more feature to have to work out balance issues. Think of a brand new car with all kinds of really neat features and that also means alot more *stuff* to worry about breaking and having to fix. Not to mention tweak to get right, which not only pushes launch back but everything between now and then, AS WELL as once launched... having issues pop up that are unforseen that need tweaking, nerfing or just plain taken out of the game.
3) Fun Factor. How is this really going to contribute to having FUN. THAT is what games are about isnt it? Does this REALLY add to making the game more interesting or tedious? THAT my friends is the question that should be asked.
Not being one to just complain about issues, I also feel compelled to give ideas as to how to better handle this. Solutions, so to speak. Keep this as an add on idea with a future expansion. BUT instead of how it currently is being explained with a resource pool and something ya you may need to add to a hot bar, taking up a spot you may want for more important abilities or spells... make it an AA type system or ability tree. When you level you can put XP into points and give your class flavor, distinguishability and playstyle by your choices taken, be it; weapon, spell or ability enhancements.
OK thats my 2 copper....
Leevolen said:Does this then mean that NPCs wielding specific weapons will have the associated techniques at their disposal? Same question but applied to charmed and summoned pets. Also, if a player disarms an NPC, charms it, hands over one or two weapons that incorporate techniques, and then breaks charm...to what extent will that NPC encounter be altered? What would stop a high level player from entering a low level dungeon and giving weapons to all of the mobs in order to up the difficulty/grief new players? If someone is slaughtering the guards in my city, can I deck them out with these weapons and not get petitioned for it?
But with that said, that isn't my main concern personally (aside from the several months/years this will add to development).
My personal concerns are that this will: 1. Force players to have an inventory of weapons to swap out for different situations and macros just to swap weapons to use certain abilities. 2. Force players to use very specific weapons solely for the skill(s) it offers, severly hampering a very fun and exciting aspect of playing an MMORPG... new loot!
This would be a feature better introduced in an expansion IMO.
Yeah, another UI window to account for could distract from the world too much. Plus a small arsenal to collect/haul around, all of which would be subject to degradation...ugh. Even if players can keep repair kits on hand, goodbye inventory space. It would make boxing that much harder to manage efficiently and it would up the demand for wt reduc bags, but few other indirect benefits come to mind.
