Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Techniques -thoughts

    • 1273 posts
    April 24, 2022 7:27 PM PDT

    Darch said:

     2.  Force players to use very specific weapons solely for the skill(s) it offers, severly hampering a very fun and exciting aspect of playing an MMORPG... new loot!

    Can you explain this one a bit?  I don't understand how having the option to use more weapons would result in less loot.  Wouldn't the result be that you'd be looking for more new loot?  

    • 97 posts
    April 24, 2022 8:41 PM PDT

    Wratherz said:

    This is a major turn off for me and SHOULD have been mentioned/show cased many many many years ago because if this was mentioned/show cased years ago I would have NEVER of pledged. 

    Maybe you can explain your reasoning on how this change destroys pantheon?

    • 97 posts
    April 24, 2022 8:46 PM PDT

    vigilantee13 said:

    Sorry,

    But, this is JUST another way to waste your resources ADDING, ANOTHER facet to the game that isnt needed. Stop trying to be so different, yet the same. Get the core game out. I feel like every time we feel we are going to get closer to Alpha, you add SOMETHING else and push "stuff" back further. I feel like we are being placed yet again in "Carrot on a stick" mode. 

    Here are my concerns beyond what I just stated.

    1) ANOTHER resource to manage. This totally IMHO is just going to take away from immersion, which is the opposite of what the original "vision" is supposed to be. I want to lose myself in this game and forget Im playing a game but be partaking in a world.

    2) Balance issues. One more feature to have to work out balance issues. Think of a brand new car with all kinds of really neat features and that also means alot more *stuff* to worry about breaking and having to fix. Not to mention tweak to get right, which not only pushes launch back but everything between now and then, AS WELL as once launched... having issues pop up that are unforseen that need tweaking, nerfing or just plain taken out of the game.

    3) Fun Factor. How is this really going to contribute to having FUN. THAT is what games are about isnt it? Does this REALLY add to making the game more interesting or tedious? THAT my friends is the question that should be asked.

     

    Not being one to just complain about issues, I also feel compelled to give ideas as to how to better handle this. Solutions, so to speak. Keep this as an add on idea with a future expansion. BUT instead of how it currently is being explained with a resource pool and something ya you may need to add to a hot bar, taking up a spot you may want for more important abilities or spells... make it an AA type system or ability tree. When you level you can put XP into points and give your class flavor, distinguishability and playstyle by your choices taken, be it; weapon, spell or ability enhancements.

     

    OK thats my 2 copper....

    1) I'm sure VR will be able to manage :)
    2) Wouldn't this feature allow VR to dial in to weapon balance more? I don't understand why you think this ruins balance when it literally makes weapon abilities more specific and less general.
    3) You don't think it will be fun to swap between weapons to use an exclusive weapon-locked ability? Cmon bro..


    This post was edited by Jiub at April 24, 2022 8:47 PM PDT
    • 258 posts
    April 24, 2022 9:29 PM PDT

    I'm not worried about how systems will play out in Pantheon. I trust enough that I think the VR team knows what they're doing and will implement weaponry system just fine. I think they'll implement tools and systems that will adapt to work for this game where we have seen in other MMORPG's not work before. As an old MMO player, I'm sure they'll implement something that works for everyone. But, let's be real here, there really isn't a perfect system out in any MMO and I don't think there will never be, with differences of players' experience, knowledge and immersive backgrounds. I think we need to come off of expecting to have systems that work for every single self-player.

    I'm trusting them enough that I'll still play the game regardless of my ability or inability to play the game. Having expectancies of wanting exactly how you want a video game to be is unrealistic. As each MMO video games' signature has its own style to adapt to. I'm just happy that the only thing I care about in this game is the visualization they have with this game and the previosly content we've seen in some of the streams within the open world was satisfactory enough for me and several other videos that I've seen in game play.

    • 4 posts
    April 25, 2022 8:33 AM PDT

    Jiub said:

    Wratherz said:

    This is a major turn off for me and SHOULD have been mentioned/show cased many many many years ago because if this was mentioned/show cased years ago I would have NEVER of pledged. 

    Maybe you can explain your reasoning on how this change destroys pantheon?

    I never said it destroys pantheon, its just a turn off for me. There are some features in MMO's I dislike this is one of them and i most likely wont play the game beacuse of it. Obvisously the game is still in developement and things are subject to change but seeing a major feature like this being added this late into development just doesn't feel genuine to what i've been expecting from Pantheon. This change in combat feels retconned in. And before people nick pick the part i said about them adding it "this late into development" the game has been into development for what like 8 years, this feature was clearly never part of the original game design. 


    This post was edited by Wratherz at April 25, 2022 8:52 AM PDT
    • 97 posts
    April 25, 2022 7:32 PM PDT

    BigBadAzz1 said:

    I understand the hesitation whenever VR announces a new feature. It's one of those things that we dread because we immediately jump to thinking it will delay launch. I think techniques is going to be useful for making weapons feel more unique, because each melee weapon will have an exclusive set of attacks you can choose from, alongside core class abilities. It'll make balancing certain weapons easier because the devs can dial to a type more specifically. I don't think we need to worry about it disrupting gameplay, and hopefully not launch ETA.

    • 97 posts
    April 25, 2022 7:41 PM PDT

    Wratherz said:

    I don't think it's as invasive as you think, because they are just attaching an exclusive set of abilities to a weapon type, rather than melee attacks being a general/global scope, it'll be more specific scope. So this retrospec change is going to be good in the long run in terms of balance and class flexibility. Yes, it was done in retrospec, but that's how you make a game. You test a system that seems good on paper, then in practice you see if flows or not. It's the nature of gave development.  I understand that the years of development can be disheartening if you are thinking about the state of the game every day, but hey, VR is being transparent about their changes rather than keeping us in the dark so *shrug*. If you are frustrated with the speed of development, take heart because they are hiring more people to speed up the content-generation :)

    • 690 posts
    April 25, 2022 7:44 PM PDT

    BigBadAzz1 said:

    I'm not worried about how systems will play out in Pantheon. I trust enough that I think the VR team knows what they're doing and will implement weaponry system just fine. I think they'll implement tools and systems that will adapt to work for this game where we have seen in other MMORPG's not work before. As an old MMO player, I'm sure they'll implement something that works for everyone. But, let's be real here, there really isn't a perfect system out in any MMO and I don't think there will never be, with differences of players' experience, knowledge and immersive backgrounds. I think we need to come off of expecting to have systems that work for every single self-player.

    I'm trusting them enough that I'll still play the game regardless of my ability or inability to play the game. Having expectancies of wanting exactly how you want a video game to be is unrealistic. As each MMO video games' signature has its own style to adapt to. I'm just happy that the only thing I care about in this game is the visualization they have with this game and the previosly content we've seen in some of the streams within the open world was satisfactory enough for me and several other videos that I've seen in game play.

    Hard disagree, the burden of making a fun game should always be put on the guy who is being paid. I shouldn't have to adapt or whatever, I can just do something else if the game is bad.

    • 258 posts
    April 25, 2022 8:07 PM PDT

    True. I think with the video they put out on youtube earlier last week explains they don't want it to be grindy as it to feel like things will be a chore to do. I agree with you, so no biggie there. I'm good either way. I love this company as is. I believe in their vision they have.. so there's just a difference of points of view with it.

    • 2756 posts
    May 3, 2022 6:44 AM PDT

    Looks interesting. I look forward to seeing it and hearing more about it.

    It sounds to me like VR have unified and evolved the concepts of weapon procs, clicky effects, type effectiveness (eg. blunt weapons hurt skeletons more).

    It sounds similar to the way abilities interact with States, but depending on weapon used. Possibly underpinned by the same code *shrug*

    Let's look on the bright side or wait to see? No? Lol. Let's catastrophise then! Woohoo!

    • 999 posts
    May 16, 2022 11:44 AM PDT

    This "could" limit weapon types if you are limited in your specialization choices similar to casters were in EQ.  It would effectively be a WoW talent tree where you would respec based on the fight, best weapon type of the time, etc.

    Or, it could be similar to EQ AA system where you don't have to choose the specialization but with time, could specialize in all.  

    If it's the latter, I'd be ok with the system adding more complexity to combat.

    The added resource seems unneccesary though.  I would add the specialization techniques to an Alternative experience path and put them on a timer.  Or just have most randomly "proc" based on skill level.

    I would be concerned with gear hot swapping in combat, etc either way though.  

    And, without knowing more about the system - I'll reserve further judgement.

    • 2419 posts
    May 16, 2022 12:07 PM PDT

    Raidan said:

    And, without knowing more about the system - I'll reserve further judgement.

    If you can't switch spells in combat, then you should not be allowed to switch gear (including weapons).


    This post was edited by Vandraad at May 16, 2022 12:09 PM PDT
    • 2138 posts
    May 16, 2022 3:30 PM PDT

    Oakenaire said:

    [...]

    "All Techniques utilize Readiness as a resource, which accrues slowly over time and can be further accelerated by dealing damage through auto-attacks as well as receiving damage. Readiness can be stored to unleash more powerful Techniques, or to execute lower-cost Techniques in devastating combos either alone or with teammates."

    [...]

    In terms of having to carry additional weapons with you, this system doesn’t really change anything. Some skills already give bonuses depending on what type you have equipped, like the passive effects from the Rogue’s Ambidextrous. Or just having them on you to not let your skills fall too far behind. Other skills already had weapon restrictions anyway. Like the Rogue’s Backstab:

    The tooltip from the Evaluation build gameplay showed it ‘requires a piercing weapon’. So needing to equip a specific weapon to use a skill was already in the game. But it could mean that backstab becomes a technique exclusive to the Rogue, that can be learned/used with piercing weapons and require readiness. Instead of just being a trained class skill with a cooldown. If anything, it seems like it would be LESS spammable.

    Finally, the part that REALLY got me excited about this system was this:

    "We want players in Pantheon to be excited at the prospect of acquiring a new weapon not only for its damage and stats, but for the ways that weapon intersects with their playstyle. Some weapons may even allow players to wield special Techniques only available through that specific item!"


    Before anyone starts thinking “Oh no, Warriors are going to get Mez and Wizards will be able to heal!”, don’t forget weapons have Race/Class restrictions on them, and it would go against the class identity VR was just talking about in that section. Adding another layer of choice for upgrades and things to discover just makes it sound so much more fun too. Do you take the sword with a tasty proc, or clicky effect? The dagger with really beefy stats on it? The weapon with the best damage/speed ratio? The mace that gives you a super neat skill? Or maybe just the one that looks really cool?

     

    I had the same take but my understanding was not as illuminating as your explanation(thanks). From a casters perspective I saw it as something like: Casters can wield a dagger, maybe a 1h blunt and a 2h staff only. Off-hand is limited to orbs, books, maybe a buckler and the rare secondary dagger/1h blunt. Depending on where the caster is going with the group would depend on what they will equip, Like the 2hander might have more protective runes and not really be a melee weapon because it's heavy although it could be swung with effect if the caster worked on their 2hand technique. Or the dagger that the caster is very good at piercing skill may get another dagger drop that has a spell proc to it and allows a double attack technique every so often based on piercing proficiency which could also cause the dagger to proc again.  So the caster could not switch weapons in combat , but would have the ability to use an extra something with that weapon they went into battle with depensing on thier technique mastery. This would also allow for times in mid-group to ask if it would be ok to stop before the next fight so I can switch because I want to try to improve some 1hb and we seem to be in a good groove here if thats ok with everyone. And if Im with a really uber group I will sneak in some hand to hand and if anyone asks its bcuuske I just want to be able to punch a bug to death just once. 

    • 2001 posts
    May 16, 2022 6:07 PM PDT

    For anyone that didn't catch in the Devstream last week, Joppa explained in chat how specific the 'weapon types' would be for different Techniques. He said "It will be on the level of Clubs, Staves, Swords, Axes, Maces, etc." To me that means that even Classes whose weapons are limited to a single damage type will still have a handful of different weapons that offer a variety of Techniques to choose from.

    From all that we've learned so far I'm quite happy with the possibilites that Techniques offer, though of course trying it out will be the real test.

     

    On a secondary point, this is great news for weapon Crafters and the Harvesters who trade/sell to them. Anyone wanting to maximize their choice of Techniques will want a variety of weapon types. Additionally, once a given Class figures out which Techniques area available to them they may find that a particular set of stats & bonuses on that weapon are ideal.

    I forsee this as increasing the inter-relation between those Crafters and the Adventurers who seek their wares. Social connections for the win.

    • 999 posts
    May 16, 2022 7:48 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Raidan said:

    And, without knowing more about the system - I'll reserve further judgement.

    If you can't switch spells in combat, then you should not be allowed to switch gear (including weapons).

    I agree.

    • 2001 posts
    May 16, 2022 8:18 PM PDT

    Raidan said:

    Vandraad said: If you can't switch spells in combat, then you should not be allowed to switch gear (including weapons).

    I agree.

    Switching gear (which is primarily armor) is irrelevant to this discussion and more than likely not going to be allowed already.

    As far as switching weapons, that's a much smaller change than switching out your LAS bar. Not to mention that it mostly defeats the purpose of the LAS.

    I don't see a logical connection between the two concerns, so I don't currently agree with that. Can you give me a rationale for that? (Other than a personal preference against the LAS)

    • 258 posts
    May 16, 2022 11:08 PM PDT

    Jothany said:

    For anyone that didn't catch in the Devstream last week, Joppa explained in chat how specific the 'weapon types' would be for different Techniques. He said "It will be on the level of Clubs, Staves, Swords, Axes, Maces, etc." To me that means that even Classes whose weapons are limited to a single damage type will still have a handful of different weapons that offer a variety of Techniques to choose from.

    From all that we've learned so far I'm quite happy with the possibilites that Techniques offer, though of course trying it out will be the real test.

     

    On a secondary point, this is great news for weapon Crafters and the Harvesters who trade/sell to them. Anyone wanting to maximize their choice of Techniques will want a variety of weapon types. Additionally, once a given Class figures out which Techniques area available to them they may find that a particular set of stats & bonuses on that weapon are ideal.

    I forsee this as increasing the inter-relation between those Crafters and the Adventurers who seek their wares. Social connections for the win.

     

    Yeah, having ability weapon enhancements makes it fun to choose from when you're more comfortable with a certain type that will offer different spell effects. It's exactly how GW2 has it. Now thinking of the type of spells it will require is even more dope. I love the idea... I just hope it doesn't become a clusterf*** of different abilities that will be unique when having tons of abilities; as I have mentioned it before, of how many spells should we have in our cast bar.


    This post was edited by BigBadAzz1 at May 16, 2022 11:10 PM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    May 17, 2022 2:12 AM PDT

    BigBadAzz1 said:

    I just hope it doesn't become a clusterf*** of different abilities that will be unique when having tons of abilities; as I have mentioned it before, of how many spells should we have in our cast bar.

    I'm still not clear on whether Techniques grant additional abilities or just alter existing ones.

    My understanding thus far is Techniques just alter existing weapon-based abilities, so it shouldn't really effect LAS, except you may have more reasons to switch your set, I suppose, if you know a certain Technique makes a certain ability especially useful.

    For example, let's say a warrior has a Cleave ability that hits up to three targets in a cone shape in front of the warrior, but costs a lot of stamina. They might not use that ability in fights that are expected to be long lasting.

    Let's say they loot a magic claymore that has a Wild Swing Technique, decreasing the stamina cost of area abilities, when Readiness is built up.

    Cleave, when Readiness builds, becomes Wild Cleave and is now perhaps more viable in more situations.

    So, that doesn't *add* abilities to LAS, but may change the way or frequency with which LAS is varied.

    • 999 posts
    May 17, 2022 7:26 AM PDT

    Jothany said:

    Raidan said:

    Vandraad said: If you can't switch spells in combat, then you should not be allowed to switch gear (including weapons).

    I agree.

    Switching gear (which is primarily armor) is irrelevant to this discussion and more than likely not going to be allowed already.

    As far as switching weapons, that's a much smaller change than switching out your LAS bar. Not to mention that it mostly defeats the purpose of the LAS.

    I don't see a logical connection between the two concerns, so I don't currently agree with that. Can you give me a rationale for that? (Other than a personal preference against the LAS)

    It isn't irrelevant.  We don't know what you can or can't switch yet.  If you can switch armor, people will do so for the resist gear vs ac gear etc that is supposed to be of extreme importance in the game.  If you can switch weapons during combat, and they all have unique proc/technique type effects like stun for example with maces, players will bandolier weapons on a macro and hot swap mid-combat when a caster begins to cast a spell, then going back to the high damage weapon afterward and repeat.  So, if one group of players - casters, are unable to make a strategic change mid-combat, another group - melee, should have to live with their choices as well.

    Now, I'd argue that casters "should" be able to switch out their spells mid combat and balance risk/reward.  If a memorizing a spell mid-combat there should be increased agro, perhaps a significantly longer memorization type due to interrupted concentration, a visual penalty whether that's a spellbook, etc.  You miss out on a lot of "oh sh*t" moments and memories if you just have to die because you forgot to memorize the right spell.  So, you could make the argument for melees as well that perhaps they could only swap what is able to be equipped - perhaps a thigh dagger, sword or mace on the back, and a bow in combat, but still at a penalty as well.  Or if it is in a backpack, the visual penalty, increased agro from a mob realizing the player is distracted, etc.   I'm all for punishing gameplay, trust me - you can read my post history through the years, but I'd argue being unable to swap either in combat is being restrictive and unrealistic.  I'd much rather balance a risk/reward mechanic and allow it.  I don't want to drift this conversation off-topic though into a pro/con discussion of swapping.  As of now, casters are unable to be allowed to swap, which is why I would agree for the same with melees.

    • 2001 posts
    May 17, 2022 10:20 AM PDT

    Raidan said:

    If you can switch weapons during combat, and they all have unique proc/technique type effects like stun for example with maces, players will bandolier weapons on a macro and hot swap mid-combat when a caster begins to cast a spell, then going back to the high damage weapon afterward and repeat.  So, if one group of players - casters, are unable to make a strategic change mid-combat, another group - melee, should have to live with their choices as well.

    I believe you are overlooking some possibilities inherent in weapon swapping. First, this quote from the Newsletter about Techniques:

    "While this primarily affects melee characters, casters and healers will benefit from Techniques as well, both through basic attacks that allow them to supplement their limited mana pools, as well as unique magical applications of their weapons to buff, debuff, and affect the tide of battle."

    To me this strongly suggests that weapon swapping to utilize Techniques will allow casters/healers the ability to make a "a strategic change mid-combat", despite the admitted imbalance in weapon types available to melees vs. casters.

     Further, swapping your offhand weapon will generally not affect Techniques, if I'm remembering correctly what Minus said in the Devstream last week. If so then swapping the offhand would usually offer few or no benefits for melees.

    But, while we haven't heard any details yet, there will be caster/healer specific offhand items like Orbs, Wands, etc. in the game which will have casting/stat bonuses that affect their spells.

    So swapping the offhand could be "a strategic change mid-combat" for Casters/Healers, since their orb/wand will affect all of their spells. They might easily have several that are worth using for specific abilities. While still being able to take full advantage of Techniques. That could well even out the imbalance of available weapon types for them.

     

    Finally, if you believe that Techniques are imbalanced in favor of melees over casters/healers (which I don't have enough info about to yet have an opinion), I see no basis to assume that ability swapping will do anything to counteract that imbalance since both groups will benefit from it and the initial imbalance - if it exists - will remain.


    This post was edited by Jothany at May 17, 2022 10:21 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    May 18, 2022 7:08 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    I'm still not clear on whether Techniques grant additional abilities or just alter existing ones.

    IMO:

    This is a detail that will make or break it.  If it doesn't actually give you new abilities, or provide the means to use abilities on new timers, then this is a gimmick, plain and simple.  Especially if their punitive implementation doesn't reset timers or otherwise uses some other timer-sharing or category-sharing or position-sharing or hotkey-sharing mechanic to prevent there being an advantage to swapping.  Which, given their design and implementation philosophy to date, seems far more likely than not.  No way you can just make it fun, no no, there has to be a punitive cost. ;)
    They doubled-down on LAS, and this is their ace in the hole (woo, conflicting card game references!) so if it doesn't work, then all you've got is a gimmick (techniques) on top of a gimmick (LAS).
    And yes, things like this have already been tried in other games, and all they are is an impediment to player agency, which reduces subscriber retention and fun.

    • 258 posts
    May 18, 2022 10:53 AM PDT

    @disposalist. Yeah, that sounds good. Haven't read the entire forum thread but sounds more of weapon with procs.


    This post was edited by BigBadAzz1 at May 18, 2022 11:07 AM PDT