Hi everyone!
Let me start by saying that I really appreciated all of the responses to the previous topic I put up a couple of weeks ago. More than the individual ideas and opinions, just being able to see how everyone thinks about these topics is really helpful both to me as well as to others on the team. It helps us to be able to sort of step into your shoes as players and make sure that we're looking at things from a broad perspective.
So, with that in mind, I have another topic I'd like to bring up for discussion: NPC writs or work orders.
For those of you who have never experienced these in other games, think of them like the crafting version of a simple quest. You get an order from an NPC to go make (or gather) some amount of crafted items or resources. You do that and bring it back to the NPC for a reward of some type. Maybe it's experience, maybe it's coin, maybe it's faction - it depends on the game. Lots of games have these, although they're implemented in different ways.
What I'd like to hear from all of you is what you think of this kind of system? Is it fun? Is it tedious? Does it make you feel more in touch with the world? Does it feel contrived? Do you wish there was more to it in games that you've played? Do you like it the way it is?
There are no right or wrong answers here. There's no ulterior motive for this discussion and there's no design decision that hinges on it or anything like that. It is simply a topic that I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on. So just talk about how you feel. What do you like or not like about this sort of thing in games that you've played before?
Thanks in advance! :)
I find them incredibly boring. They just feel so disconnected, almost meaningless in a way.
I think if there were territorial struggles between the various NPC factions to which these writs/work orders swayed the pendulum in one direction or another, then I would probably find them more meaningful. The current position of the pendulum would need to be communicated to the player in some way. This could either be accomplished via NPC dialogue, a visual representation of some sort, or some other way.
Several advantages or gaps in crafting plans\system could be filled with this.
As I think about keeping cities lively (players), you could also let players put up writs or workorders
... For adventurers or 'skill apprentices' ... and that works the other way round too (adventurer putting up a 'workorder' in the city)
You can debate about what kind of rewards players could give out that have a crafting character in a city (city\race faction?)
You can link these to more elaborate quest lines.
fun: vary .. though some players like to do the same stuff for a personal reasons or specific goals and others like to be suprised. differ per npc I sugest
tedious: does that take away from the current crafting plans\system?
in touch: could be, like "the secret" or "geocaching" stuff, where ppl commented on going places not seen before, or learn about history\lore not heard before
contrive: yes, you could discover hidden and or secret crafting stuff
more: a bit like tedious: as it should not shift the focus away from the proposed crafting methods
I don't recall which game had this...I think it was EQ2? There, using these crafting "jobs" was the main method of leveling. The NPC would give you some material (according to your level), you had to buy fuel (for example coal for smithing) and other minor ingredients. You completed the job and returned the made items for experience (iirc there was no monetary reward involved). IMO this was a very good way to implement the leveling process for crafting.
First, you weren't required to make lots of the same item to progress (the "best" method to advance crafting usually was to pick out an item above your current skill level that required the least amount of stuff to make, and then make that until you reached the trivial level for that item). The NPC would usually give you jobs to make different items.
Second, you didn't have to "waste" valuable real materials to advance your craft. You could train up to where you felt comfortable, then use real items to make stuff that really interested you.
Third, you didn't have to dump the market with "level-up" items (or sell them for almost nothing to an NPC). Anyone remember the huge number of banded masks or bracers on the NPC merchants?
And although you could argue that this way made leveling up crafting easier (because you didn't have to get materials yourself), it didn't make it cheaper. Fuels and ingredients costed a lot of money.
In the end, and in the context of Pantheon, I don't know if this kind of system is a good idea tho...after all, it allows you to level up on your own without much interaction with other players. Still, I would like to see some part of it here too, maybe in a form of daily quest(s)? So you couldn't use it as the main way to advance, but it could still be used to help you progress.
Nephele said:NPC writs or work orders.
I like the idea as introduction for the gathering or crafting profession, let a low level player craft his 1st basic armor and weapon. Make new players familiar with the system.
For higher levels I like this idea:
Nekentros said:I think if there was territorial struggles between the various NPC factions to which these writs/work orders swayed the pendulum in one direction or another, then I would probably find them more meaningful.
And it makes also sense if the needed resources are not available in the zone, e. g. when you are in a mountain city but the cook needs tropical fruits for the recipe.
I like them as long as the rewards are meaningful in some way, i.e. not just gold, experience, or faction rep as most games have them implemented today. They should not just be a proxy for "daily" quests.
I agree with crazysyd102's sentiments that they can be a great way to introduce gathering and crafting, as a tutorial of sorts. However, after the introduction, they should work to advance your crafting in some way. The rewards should be additional materials that you need for crafting advanced items that you cannot obtain anywhere else, or at least not easily.
I also really love the idea of server-wide events that involve crafting/harvesting, similar to World of WarCraft's Ahn'Qiraj War Effort.
Nephele said: ... For those of you who have never experienced these in other games, think of them like the crafting version of a simple quest. You get an order from an NPC to go make (or gather) some amount of crafted items or resources. You do that and bring it back to the NPC for a reward of some type. Maybe it's experience, maybe it's coin, maybe it's faction - it depends on the game. Lots of games have these, although they're implemented in different ways.What I'd like to hear from all of you is what you think of this kind of system? Is it fun? Is it tedious? Does it make you feel more in touch with the world? Does it feel contrived? Do you wish there was more to it in games that you've played? Do you like it the way it is? ...
My OPINIONS: I think they're a good way to provide either the actual NPC demand or impression of NPC demand for objects, which is thematically consistent if what they're asking for is being consumed.
That means if players are citizens of the virtual world in which this is taking place.. everyone has to eat. And wear clothing. And use potions. And defend themselves. And have pets. And sit on chairs in front of tables. And travel, sharpen their weapons, use spell consumables, and so on. If all of that is taking place, or the illusion of it is taking place, then there is a constant demand for all of those things.
Along with that is the tools, equipment and similar for all the various professions in all the various loops to be able to perform that role/profession, and look good while doing it. ;)
It can be fun. It can be tedious. If there's no context, it will be contrived and tedious. If there is a plausible context, it can be fun in the sense of accomplishment and effecting tangible change in the game world, even if temporarily.
If it were my system to implement, I would have NPC demand and PC demand be satisfied via the same system. If you're a crafter that produces end products (and ideally, all crafting professions would) then there should always be demand for your products. The demands of other players should simply be another writ or work order to fulfill, on the part of everyone, in the same interface/queue. PC work orders and NPC work orders should be indistinguishable from each other, and the rewards should never be coin.
In practice, this means if I'm a cook or baker, someone who produces food that is an output item to be consumed, then when I go to the $interface to obtain the task, it should list all the various in-tier work orders, and all the work orders from other players are in there too, but you can't tell which is which. (Player or NPC). How would that work with rewards? If a player wants something made, the rewards to be given are taken from them and placed into the work order. This means if XP is part of the reward? XP is taken from the player making the order and provided as a reward to the crafter. Same goes for faction, social currency, and any other non-coin , untradable reward that goes along with it.
I think there is room for both NPCs and PCs to offer greater rewards to go to the top of the queue. These types of work orders should be available, again, exactly the same regardless of the source.
It also seems reasonable that if someone takes a work order, they must fulfill it within a very small period of time, and only work orders they CAN fulfill are even granted to them. If they logout, or are disconnected, after a very brief (1-2 minutes) delay, that work order must go back into the queue. Running along with that idea further, it also seems reasonable that if you're going to implement with the tenet of greater risk = greater reward, the highest reward work orders would have the shortest timers.
I also like the the idea that work orders provide rewards in tools and equipment, the way (IIRC) Vanguard did. I think knowing what you're getting ahead of time would be ideal, in these cases. Perhaps as well or instead, as you gain faction, renown, fame, or social currency in a tier, the various related NPC vendors would simply sell you tools and equipment for the cost of that faction, renown, fame, or social currency.
Finally, if someone is willing to make, ahead of time, all the items they can in a tier, then they should be able to have that stocked somewhere and then simply fulfill the work orders that they have stock to satisfy. I wouldn't force players to make the items while in possession of the work order, especially if they already have them, but they should have their makers mark.
If certain recipes produce multiples, it seems reasonable that certain work orders would demand multiples, especially for consumables. However, if some work orders demand or require disposable recipes ONLY, they should be obtainable from NPCs by consuming faction, social currency, renown, fame, XP, or similar. This would cover the situation whereby disposable recipes are required for multiple output combines. (making 5, 10, or more of something)
As with all other similar loops, inputs and outputs should not be sellable for coin, and all NPC rewards must not be tradeable.
Nephele said:There are no right or wrong answers here. There's no ulterior motive for this discussion and there's no design decision that hinges on it or anything like that. It is simply a topic that I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on. So just talk about how you feel. What do you like or not like about this sort of thing in games that you've played before?
Thanks in advance! :)
They are OK, so long as I'm not forced into doing them to progress my skill. I can see where faction can be involved such that if you want to earn access to a racial crafting station, as an example, in city of another race the merchant guild would first ask you do perform some work, turn in a few items, etc, after which they grant you access to the merchants, crafting stations, etc. But at no point should I be forced to engage in these NPC writs to take my skill in a particular tradeskill all the way to the maximum. Leave it as an elective.
Daily = busy work, need to log on to get the reward for the day not a fan. If a crafter needs others to gather for him V a writ? Why not just buy off of market. Now if one is needed NPC or a PC to assist a crafter. Say to keep fire hotter for better tempered metals faster work less back and forth for crafter is a win, win. I could see a player assisting for some coin and a little knowledge. If a NPC needs to contract players let it be mats for a building, bridge or boat again giving some knowledge of craft to PC.
GW2 In most every thing I did I also gathered every thing along the way to and from x,y, and z. Then when it came time to make a legendary weapon all that was left was a long quest line. Then a massive amount of materials buy or gather. After all that is done, go to crafting station. NPC tells you make 100 X, = a writ then 100 y and so on for ever as you went through 5 types of wood, ore and so on. The cost and time would get to the point it would be better just to buy it off market in many cases. Time sink and money sink IMO. oh you got a achievement for making said item.
Learn a new crafting technique or recipe from a NPC for time spent assisting in tasks or questing for items needed for better X . Yes I am a fan of that. Helping master crafters stay in their player made and owned homes and waiting for everyone to come to them . Hard NO!!
Till next time take care of each other and be safe. Peace
I could see it as a way to build faction and make warring cities more prosperous but I think it would create a far greater devaluation to give out money or exp for these.
I'm not much of a crafter, and this is going off of decade old memories so definitely take this with a grain of salt...
I have fond, if vauge, memories of the crafting guild turn-ins in FFXI which strike me as similar to a writ / work-order system. If memory serves, after reaching a certain rank in a craft you could turn in items to the guild in exchange for guild points, which you could save up to buy crafting gear, etc. You could know in advance what items you would need to turn in, which let you plan days ahead to gather items and burn through some crafts so that you could maximize your point gain per time/gil investment. I never really got the "dailies" vibe that a few other replies have mentioned, but this was pre-TBC where I really began to hate dailies with a passion. But I think the fact that you could plan ahead and (iirc) do turn-ins to your hearts conent makes it different from the issues that I have with dailies. I also really liked the idea of crafting guilds and guild items (I think there's a lot of design space for that re: Pantheon and exploring, climbing, climate, etc as a crafter). Plus, it was another avenue for deleting items from the game which always seems good (especially when you can tweak it based on points rewards, which items you can turn in, etc).
I have several thoughts that I'll try and put into written form
I enjoy them. Hardcore crafters view writs as adventurers view grinding mobs to level up. I appreciate them because they weed out and present a barrier of entry to casual players attempting the crafting sphere. I have no problem doing 1000s of writs to reach max level, just like I have no problem grinding 1000s of mobs. All you need to do Nephele is copy/paste Vanguard's crafting system. If you can make minor tweaks to make it even better, then great. If you literally just port Vanguard's crafting system into this game, we're in great shape. Your job is super easy, no need to re-invent the wheel, that just ends in a crappy contrived crafting system.
What if these writs offer faction or points towards a specific crafting guild. Crafting is supposed to be meaningful - especially when it comes to end game gear as well.
Is the plan to allow anyone to be any type of crafter? Is everyone eventually going to be able to max every type of crafting and just make whatever? Or do we have crafting guilds where you have to earn the faction with these writs and this faction allows you access to recipes for end game content. This way end game crafting is meaningful for those who are truly dedicated crafters - end game recipes could be crafted gear or even components. These components or gear pieces can be sold for a decent price by those who have truly dedicated themselves to crafting, so they may make a profit in the game, or they may craft gear for others with a generous tip :)
Obviously there are some factors you'll have to consider that could ruin this or be abused in some form or way, but it's an idea to branch off of.
A lot of games out there allow you to craft whatever you want whenever, all you need is time to harvest everything or money to purchase it. This reduces crafting to mindless and unvalued work. Are you going to purchase the mats on the market to craft a backpack? Or just buy the whole backpack? This might depend on the type of market, whether you're forced to buy whole stacks or if you're allowed to buy a specific quantity. This also depends on the crafting and harvesting system; if it takes me 10 minutes and I can craft it myself without being a dedicated tailor - I'll just craft it myself. And who else will have that same thought process; reducing the worth of backpacks.
Games where raiders are also full time crafters - with a real life full time job - are astounding. Either they are really good at what they do and are dedicated to being part of both worlds (crafting and raiding) OR the game was designed poorly. I like being able to craft my own things in order to go into dungeons without buying overpriced items, but as a crafter, I hate the idea of everyone being able to craft everything offered in the game. It's supposed to take time and effort to reach that. Not everyone can be a master cook or a master blacksmith. But it also doesn't have to take a lifetime to be able to craft up a decent sword or learn how to be a baker and bake some of your own goods. People take up hobbies all the time and are decent at crafts - but that doesn't make them an expert.
I always craft in any MMO I play as I like being able to log in and do my own thing and relax especially if I don't have a long time to play. Using writs I could achieve something for my time played whether it was coin, advancing my character or creating items to sell on the market.
EQ2 had, in theory, a great trade system in place when the game launched. It required all the different trade classes to work togther to make finished items. For instance, I was an Armorer. In order to make a finished piece of armor I needed a Tailor to make padding, and Alchemist to make wash/temper for the steel, in addition to making the metal sheets myself. Once I had those items I could then make my finished armor. It never really got off the ground before they allowed a character to learn all the professions making the co-operative nature of crafting a moot point.
That said I like the idea of making crafting a group effort somehow. Writs could be required to have a group consisting of up to 6 people and must have at least one character of each major trade ((i.e. one Outfitter (Armorsmith, Tailor, Weaponsmith), one Scholar (Alchemist, Jeweler, Sage) and one Craftsman (Carpenter, Provisioner, Woodworker)). Give them an event or a situation that must be overcome such as producing enough bread to feed the orphanage in town or gathering time sensitive materials. Reward upon completion in coin, materials or status greater than that of a solo writ. You could also give tiers of writs to choose making more advaced writs pay off in better rewards. Think of it as a dungeon or raid for crafters. That could provide some added incentive to complete writs.
Vjek had lots of good ideas that cover a good range of settings and applications of writs.
Rather than the form of writs I would like to bring up the function of what writs could be. Crafting writs could be a central tool that enables an adventuring independent crafting game play loop. Just like a goal of having more than one path to get the types of items you need the crafting writ loop could be an alternative way to master crafting outside of adventuring.
This means that all aspects of the crafting process from learning a trade, finding materials to practice with, gaining experience, finding clients for your meager skills and eventually improving would be contained within NPC interactions. These writs could come in many forms and would have multiple purposes.
An example could be as follows.
Player Bob wants to become a smith. Player Bob also isn’t really interested in fighting but loves the world of Pantheon and has friends and family that seem to have trouble ever logging off. Rather than leveling an adventuring character Bob just wants to craft and sell his goods in town.
Bob has the option of buying raw materials from harvesters and just grinding away at making objects to level up. The problem is that raw materials on the player market are worth 10 times as much as what a vendor will pay him for his finished product and no player would be caught dead using a novice crafted item. Bob has no cash as that is an adventuring reward and he doesn’t fight, nor can he really harvest on his own as he wants to be a smith, not a miner and smiths need items from skinners, wood cutters and alchemists too.
Instead Bob decides to go the NPC writ route.
First Bob must find a Master willing to teach him. A master smith will not just teach anyone and certainly not for free. Bob wanders around town till he sees Yolonda’s Metal Mashers smithy. Master Yolonda happens to have a slot for a new apprentice but she wants someone who will not just give up when things get tedious. In order for Bob to be accepted as an apprentice he must do gopher work for a while. Yolonda is a smith so the gopher work she needs is someone to chop up coal, fill the hoppers, sweep the smithy, fill the water and oil tanks, fetch headlight fluid and the like.
Bob is determined to become a smith and agrees to do many tasks building up faction and credit with Yolonda that will go towards his education. Along the way he is taught several tasks that a smith needs to do or helps him turn time into useable fuel without needing to spend cash. Eventually Bob impresses Master Yolonda and she agrees to give him his first lesson. Nails, it always starts with nails. Simple, boring, can be made from scrap and people always need them. In the process Bob learns how to salvage bits of metal from scrap, how to heat a piece of metal, draw it out into a thin rod and hot cut it while bending the end. Now Bob just needs to do it again. Until. That. Entire. Stack. Of. Scrap. Become. Nails.
After Bob has completed his Apprenticeship quest Yolonda will teach him a few more basic patterns and tells him to check the work board for jobs that need doing, and to start at the bottom. Going over to he board Bob sees lists of household goods and sundries the people around town have requested of Yolonda. Some times Yolonda will have the metal on hand, other times its back to the scrap pile, and occasionally Yolonda will have the materials sent over but Bob will owe her, likely in nails.
Eventually Bobs mastery of the basic skills of smithing have reached a level where Yolonda is ready to teach him more advanced skills that will start opening up more advanced items. This next tier of items will likely require more steps and more material refining than your common household goods. More often than not something will need to be traded for from other craftsmen in order to finish a product. Yolonda has an open account with most of them so Bob is able to charge the materials back to her and if he has not made enough from other jobs, its back to making nails.
After a significant amount of time learning all the simple and advanced basic skills Master Yolonda will finally start teaching Bob some of her secrets, likely at the cost of yet again more nails. (Bob really should take his time so he doesn’t fail so much burning up his Smithy credit) Once taught Master Yolonda will give Bob another major test that shows his whole range of abilities. He must meet her exacting quality standards and must come up with the materials on his own, either through crafting requests around town or possibly even repairing some items for adventurers if they are within his skills.
Once Bob succeeds at making the list of goods Master Yolonda requested (at journeyman quality), Master Yolonda declares Bob good enough to really get his hands dirty . . . somewhere else. No really, get out of here I have another apprentice coming.
Left with just his fresh new Journeyman title and no where to practice his trade Bob heads to the central market to look for work. At the market Bob hears about the Kingsreach Crafters Union. If he joins the union he will have access to their crafting stations, their instructors, a job board, and the company store (yes that company store). Bob not understanding he is about to become indebted to another cruel taskmaster joins the Union and pays his dues, on credit, rents his tools, on credit, gets some materials, on credit, registers at the job board, on credit, picks up a task, for a fee which of course is on credit still, and heads off to the common forge.
Bob proceeds to grind, and hammer, his way out of debt by doing tasks for both the Union and NPC around town, even occasionally filling orders for other PCs but he is none the wiser. Once finally in good standing Bob can seek out the specialist who know the skills he really wants to master in order to make the items of power he has been dreaming about. After finding a Master, it is just like Yolonda’s Metal Mashers all over again just with a new grumpy, lazy, master and harder tasks, yet still somehow including turning scrap into nails. Bob hates nails.
After a long enough time Bob climbs to the top ranks of the Union and has mastered everything that can be taught, including to avoid debt to the company store. Bob’s crafter prestige is now high enough that nobles and well to do merchants will seek him out to do work of exacting quality for them. Additionally now Bob can take his Credentials to almost any human city and be recognized as a master smith of high enough prestige that you can brag you have something with his makers mark.
Bob however is now bored. He has mastered every technic and style practiced by the humans of the continent. He wants to expand his skills to the styles and knowledge of the other races of Terminus and dreams of his future achievements out among the other races. That night Bob has nightmares of, Ice Steel nails, Iron Wood Nails, Mud nails, Bog Iron nails, Toe nail nails, stone nails and weird clouds of elemental energy in the shape of nails.
I like them as long as they make sense in the world.
- NO daily quests. I have no problem with an NPC saying "I have no orders that need to be filled right now" or whatever wording makes sense, but to have it simply refresh every 24 hours is not to my liking. The refresh timer (if there is one) should be part of the world, the story, triggered by some event that increased demand of that item, etc.
- Maybe an NPC has a need for 100 widgets, and players can fulfill those orders at any rate they choose, but once the 100 orders are filled that NPC is no longer interested in rewarding you for that widget. Maybe a new NPC has a new demand (or the same npc I suppose). If only one player is interested in doing that task then that player might just do all 100 alone, if 20 players are working on it they might get to do 5 each.
- There might also be items that are always in demand.
- NPCs shouldn't always ask you to bring the item back to them. It might make sense for them to ask you to deliver it to someone else in the world that needs it.
- A variety of rewards is great. Maybe a reward could even be an NPC offering to help you learn something new. Maybe trian you as a reward (up your skill), or teach you a new recipe, or give you information on where to find a certain item. ... or a mastery point in your trade skill?
- I really enjoy crafting and I always think it's a shame when the items you make feel like they go to waste. It would feel pretty great if every item you made had a purpose other than simply getting better at making that item.
- In general I think work orders are helpful in making crafting fun.
I'm a big fan of crafting writs being the primary way you raise faction with a city, tied with doing basic randomly generated 'kill' quests. Writs as a way to make significant amounts of money or gain experience (outside of the exp generated from crafting the things), on the other hand? Not a fan. I do like writs as a way of 'fleshing out' a crafting system, giving players recipes that are useless for players but asked for frequently by writs (horseshoes and sconces for blacksmiths, disease treating and contraceptive potions for alchemists, just bulk pastry orders for provisioners), which can help flavor a town. What the writs are for can tell you a lot about the people of a city, and it can make the crafter feel like a part of a larger world.
As for PCs posting writs, I'm pretty okay with it, but somebody mentioned a player buying writs with experience? Bad idea, I think. Experience is always seen as either priceless or valueless, depending on whether someone's level capped or not. It'll very strange things to the player writ system.
I'm a big fan of Writs for small rewards or faction bonuses or access to special crafting stations through rep gained. Say a local fisherman is hosting a fish feast for his town but his net broke or fishing rod broke. You can either help him catch all the fish required for the feast. Or through crafting make him a new net or fishing rod. Each outcome is different, but caters to different play styles. I also think Writs can allow simpler items to retain their value. Like crafting daggers and the Thieves Guild could have a writ for an order of daggers x10. Or maybe Scribes have ran out of Ink and Paper to write their scrolls of wisdom and a carpenter is needed to make wood pulp and ink. Those simple items (daggers, Fishing rods, Wood pulp, Ink) all have some value now through their uses in Writs on top of their original values through crafting. Allowing writs to be spammed though can be a slippery slope so that is something to keep an eye on.
I think with Pantheon's intent to build a world, writ's should be used in such a way to tell a story or I would say a multi-chain quest, with the end result awarding the crafter with new recipes. I'd hate for them to be redudant and I think you can make the chain established in such a way to send the crafter on an adventure.
An example could be that an NPC is looking to enter a tournament and he wants to leverage your crafting to help him win. As he progresses through his journey, he has you craft specific items to help him adapt to his challenges. So maybe the writ starts with getting him a sword and shield and continues into other armor pieces with it eventually coming to a point where you craft him something powerful or rare and the end reward is a special recipe for an item. This whole chain should have taken a considerable amount of time and could offer one of a different variation of awards. This would then make me as the crafter feel like I can provide something different than be one of 100 crafters who could make banded armor as an example. Although i know over time more and more people will be capable, but if you spread these elaborate writ/chain quests throughtout, it allows for quite a bit of variability and keeps a crafter will to partake in doing these writs that may seem redudant.
I would expect a crafting 'quest' to give better XP than just crafting one item repeatedly, then another, and another.... which either floods the market or leaves me to salvage the things that I just made, making them feel irrelevant. I'd like to see the rewards - beyond Crafting XP - include recipes, faction, craft supplies & tools, even further multi-part quests.
IMO The single biggest thing you could do to keep writs from becoming boring (to me) would be to make them have some meaningful affect on the world, even if it's only visual. It doesn't have to be huge and probably could not be permanent (due to the large number of players who would complete the same writ). But it would still be much more immersive for me if it included something like the following:
The Blacksmith trainer gives me an order for a BP. When I turn it in, he puts it on. Maybe he wears it for an hour, maybe a day, maybe just until the next crafter does that writ. Perhaps he hangs it on his wall display and once all the hooks are full the oldest pieces get replaced. Have a decay-timer on a relatively long cycle, so if no crafters do writs from this particular trainer for long enough, the shop slows goes back to it's base state.
As a more complex and exciting solution, perhaps the trainer shares a shop with the local armor vendor, who is his brother. Have the starting and lowest level pieces that are available for newbies to buy, come from crafting writs. Every new player who buys one of them now has an example of Crafting, as well as the name of a local crafter from the Maker's Mark. Talk about fostering player interaction!
If a crafter never could tell whether his piece had been sold, replaced or just decayed, he would always have that small possibility of meeting someone one day who says "Hey Jothany, I wore your Codpiece of Invulnerability for a bunch of levels when I started, and now it's on my newbie Rogue alt". Now THAT would be rewarding :D
I wouldn't expect this process to continue to to max levels, given the complexity that already exists of balancing the value of items from all sources while allowing for Crafters to have customers. But it might work great for starting/low level crafters. And it should be similar for a wide variety of crafting schools, if not all of them. Woodworkers could do writs that increase the trainer's entire building, adding rooms and windows, doors etc. While the Bowyer makes the basic bows and arrows for the vendors inventory. Provisioners would gravitate towards taverns and inns. The only crafting school that I don't have any recollection of buying low level products from in other games would be the Scribe.
At its highest levels, this process might build defenses for a village, or increase the armor level or weapons of the local Guards or foster magical defenses for the village. Eventually, crafter improvements might trigger a 'Live Event' that doesn't happen until enough improvement have been made thru completion of writs in multiple schools.
I'm sure that much of this would likely involve too many changes to game systems that are already coded. But if any of it is useful, then I'm a happy camper.
The more options a player has on how they get to approach and play the game the better. I like NPC work orders and writs for crafting if it is optional and gives crafters another avenue to progress their craft and possibly reap different rewards. The more they make sense in the game world the better. Master crafters might give players writs as a form of apprenticeship, possilby rewarding new recipes or crafting gear. Merchants might give work orders for items they would like to sell, giving faction and gold rewards. NPC's or even towns could give writs and work orders for a wide variety of things they need help with such as repairs or replenishing stores. All these give ways for the crafter to interact with the world without the usual selling gear to players and without flooding the market with items.
A few posters have offered their opinions regarding what they like or dislike with respect to potential content in this area, so I'll add mine as well..
For context, I'll use the term work order to cover writs or anything else in the category of: a task offered by an NPC, not explicitly an Adventure loop quest.
There are two main types of work orders I'd like to see. Those offered by player characters, and those offered by non-player-characters. In practice, there should be no difference in the types of work orders or their rewards, via either source.
When a character wants to perform a task in an area, they would interact with an object, NPC, or similar to view a list of tasks, and work orders would be in that list. There would always be a work order available from NPCs, for each player, according to their current skill set(s). If they had no skills outside of the Adventure loop, then they could not see, accept, or fulfill work orders. (those being explicitly not part of the Adventure loop). Of course, the same mechanic could apply to certain types of Adventure loop quests, but that's not the subject of this thread.
The work orders would be offered based on the skills the player had at the moment, for all non-adventure loops. This would include, at least from what we know so far, harvesting/gathering and crafting.
If a player had $skill, a work order may be to obtain qty $x of $y via optionally $z. Where $skill could be something like skinning or carpentry, x is how many, y is what item or object and z is the optional method or source.
A simple example would be obtain 5 live squirrels via trapping, husbandry, luring, taming, theft, stealth, or similar.
Likewise, something like obtain 10 amanita mushrooms via fungiculture or obtain 10 spruce branches via pruning, felling, pollarding, logging.
So those are what I would consider work orders for gathering or harvesting, or at least, non-crafting, distinctly.
I thnk there's a huge range of potentially rewarding tasks that could lead to a wide variety of non-coin rewards, for all of those.
In order to be fun and not tedious, having all NPCs be involved and all types of items and rewards involved would contribute to that goal.
There's no downside to having a huge and dynamic list of work orders presented to each player. Letting them choose from many gives a great impression of freedom.
As far as crafting specific work orders, the Maker's Mark is king. If you've already made it, and a work order requires it, you should be able to immediately fulfill that work order. There should be a non-stop constant demand and non-coin/untrade-able rewards for everything and anything players can acquire, produce, or create, at all tiers.
What would NOT be fun? Is if the server checks your inventory, and specifically only offers you work orders for things you DO NOT have in your bank(s) and on your person. If I've gone to the effort to make a bunch of something that is required? Then I should be rewarded for anticipating those needs, rather than specifically NOT rewarded for anticipating those needs.
Regarding where to get the work orders, the $interface I mentioned previously can be one of, some of, or all of: a bulletin board, NPCs of types: generic, one of many guild(s) representative, kingdom representative, mayor, temple servant, local escrow agent, innkeeper, shop owner, local storage agent, local banking agent, quartermaster, and more.
And the guilds in that list could be many, from arcane casters, masons, miners, merchants, warriors or thieves.
With the above in mind, every tier and loop-appropriate ingredient, recipe and object is in scope for work orders both as inputs and outputs.
For me and those I know looking forward to Pantheon, being able to interact with more and more NPCs and determine and meet their needs for rewards would represent very fun, 'sticky', and challenging progression. Work orders is a positive method (with a huge scope) that provides tangible personal progress, all at the pace of the player, if it has some of these features.