The crafting writs I have encountered in other games come way to close to feeling like dailies. That could be just an implementation problem due to it being just another grind.
If you throw a curveball into them such as the previous mentions of factions then they may feel more personally rewarding to complete. The systems I have encountered were basically go get 10 of these or 30 of those and come right back here and I will give you XP and craft skill ups. That is bland and boring.
If a system of writs was to be exciting it would not be a wash, rinse, and repeat system. It would have me exploring new areas, talking to new NPCs, swimming under water in a cave to find a blind salamander (one time) then have me climb a snowcapped peak, then would send me to a new continent to find a hermit, etc etc. If it is nothing more than a mere kill/gather task then no thanks. A properly implemented Writ system would have me playing the game and utilizing many of the game systems. Make the writs dependant on climate, acclimation, perception etc.
People talk about dailies the way devout Christians discuss Lucifer.
But dailies aren't evil. Players do not dislike dailies, actually. What they dislike is when they get to a position in the game when there is nothing else BUT dailies to do. Although dailies aren't evil they sure as heck aren't fun when they constitute the only content.
So even equating writs to dailies - writs aren't bad - what is bad is when there is no reason to log on and craft other than writs. Hopefully crafting will be at least a bit more useful and interesting than that.
If writs were used as endgame crafting content the analogy to dailies would be more compelling. Writs in many MMOs if not most are not typically so used. They are typically used to help crafters get to greater skill level. I like writs just as I like quests. Both reduce the unutterable tedium of killing 1,000 mobs for a few xp per kill or making 1.000 combines for a few crafting points per combine.
Can writs be more interesting - sure. In fact it is trivially easy. Make the necessary materials something you need to go out and harvest to get. Something not available until you get the writ.
Is this an improvement? Here I venture to say no. Not unless the crafting skill given is so high that the entire process including round trip travel is at least as many crafting points per minute as tedious grinding.
If you don't make the crafting skill this good it isn't a writ at all. It is a crafting/harvesting quest. Which I would welcome greatly but leave the writs in peace to serve the goals they should serve. Efficient skill-ups.
dorotea said:People talk about dailies the way devout Christians discuss Lucifer.
But dailies aren't evil. Players do not dislike dailies, actually. What they dislike is when they get to a position in the game when there is nothing else BUT dailies to do. Although dailies aren't evil they sure as heck aren't fun when they constitute the only content.
*snip*
I was thinking the same thing earlier. Dailies can be useful for limiting throughput over a daily or weekly time window. That could be a very useful tool for controlling risk vs reward. Daily Quests are an opportunity cost not just a material cost. They certainly have their place if used correctly.
Daily Quest don't have to actually be daily. What you could have is a limited number of specific possible results over a week or even a month. Similar to if the NPC's inventory updated weekly and would only reward you from what was still in its inventory and you really wanted something that only had four of, you would only need 4 quests a week to get everything you want. When you will achieve those results in that time is irrelevant you can do it all on one afternoon or spread it out over the entire time. This way you don't feel a slave to making or causing the result every single day. It's less of a daily chore and more of a monthly opportunity. I am sure there is a balance that can be found that doesn't allow infinite repetition but does not feel mandatory.
I craft because I enjoy the art of being a crafter, The satisfaction of making a sale, and making the customer happy.
A quest to teach me a new skill, or get a special tool for my trade, sure I can see that, but a quest for XP is mechanical, when it should be organic, meaning it happens naturally as I perform my trade and interact with customers, and not from running though Dailies or batches to fast track my XP gains.
Why take the trip if you don't enjoy the ride?
HemlockReaper said:I craft because I enjoy the art of being a crafter, The satisfaction of making a sale, and making the customer happy.
A quest to teach me a new skill, or get a special tool for my trade, sure I can see that, but a quest for XP is mechanical, when it should be organic, meaning it happens naturally as I perform my trade and interact with customers, and not from running though Dailies or batches to fast track my XP gains.
Why take the trip if you don't enjoy the ride?
I would agree that the goal is a purely organic player driven crafting experience. The problem though is that there just will not be enough player driven demand for goods, especially if there is no form of true item decay. Once you accept the fact that there cannot be a smooth player to player only experience you are able to consider ways to fill that gap.
NPC demand is the only other real option, aside from just grinding and destroying/vendoring for a huge loss. Now the real question becomes how we can make NPC demand immersive, fun and compelling. So the goal becomes making “filling NPC demand” a fun journey that you might choose to do rather than go kill mobs.
Elite Dangerous has done a very good job of making Combat, Exploration, Resource transport, Resource Gathering and Personal Transport all relatively entertaining. The way you buy and build your ships is usually specific to one or two of those goals. Each has their own tricks and in some ways progression to follow, though credits are king.
Developing a world interaction game play loop for crafting is essential for it to be a pleasant stand-alone gaming experience. There is no reason that the crafting and adventuring game play loops need to be totally separate, but they should be both able to stand-alone if they are to be enjoyable.
I'm ambivalent. Meaning I have mix feelings about this. So this is where compromising comes into play. I can live with it. Just don't make it a forced requirement to level a profession. I'll know better when the game goes live if I'm going to be a casual crafter or more of a serious crafter. To early to tell now for me.
I take no issue with perks being added to it for the more challenging ones. Rewarding the people that put the time sink in is not an issue for me. I think you should be rewarded for sinking a lot of time into a profession. The same way VR talks about risk vs reward. Just keep it balance.
Souless, Lazy, Leveling System Development
No to dailys, repeatables, and writs from me
dorotea said:Players do not dislike dailies, actually. What they dislike is when they get to a position in the game when there is nothing else BUT dailies to do. Although dailies aren't evil they sure as heck aren't fun when they constitute the only content.
So even equating writs to dailies - writs aren't bad - what is bad is when there is no reason to log on and craft other than writs. Hopefully crafting will be at least a bit more useful and interesting than that.
If writs were used as endgame crafting content the analogy to dailies would be more compelling. Writs in many MMOs if not most are not typically so used. They are typically used to help crafters get to greater skill level. I like writs just as I like quests. Both reduce the unutterable tedium of killing 1,000 mobs for a few xp per kill or making 1.000 combines for a few crafting points per combine.
Can writs be more interesting - sure. In fact it is trivially easy. Make the necessary materials something you need to go out and harvest to get. Something not available until you get the writ.
If I can jump in for a second here. I like the concepts of making grind writs (to be clear that I'm not talking about a quest or specific work orders) worthwhile but not obligatory.
For that I would suggest the following:
We all know that reputation is something that's very interesting for crafters. It's much less obvious to showcase that compared to adventures. Be that reputation with players or the npc's/societies around them. In this context I would define it as "Commercial Charisma". Grinding writs can be used as a way to earn "Tradesmanship" or "Artisanship" points of sorts. The content is not obligated and it will require a lot of grinding for it to be of significant turnover. But for those who want to do it, it's out there.
What you can do with this earned points. (example ratio 1 increase/10 writs done) You can invest them into your character to increase commercial charisma. When you've spent those points, you'll have impacted how sales and trades are handled. With each commerce you do, the Commercial Charisma decreases again. This doesn't have to be solely about making better profits or spending fewer coin. But it could influence some other factors that are not severly important for crafters. Maybe even confine benefits to their actual main profession itself. An alchemist would be able to use that Commercial Charisma during his alchemist related content/trades.
You kind of allow those grinders to invest huge amounts of time, just how they like it, namely grinding. No xp is rewarded but it still showcases some progression which they can use. And because it's focussing on their main profession, it gives them that bit more character.
I fear that if you go mainstream with writs to grind, it might be perceived as a must and a railroad to the finish. Grinding content can be provided, but it should have it's own space within the crafting world. It's possible, but it will take you longer, it might be less profitable. But it will scratch/saturate that grinditch you have inside.
Hello. In vanguard, i did lots of writs and work orders to grind up. Its was tedious, but it got the exp lvl up. Some of us went that route to lvl up to be able to make said item.
In eq2 it was also tedious and boring. From both games, you did get factions up in said city/town. It was mostly grinding. If writs/work orders were rewarding and meaningful, that would be great. Would not mind if it was also a wayto get factions from said city/town.
I enjoyed doing them in both EQ2 and Vanguard. It was a way of leveling up and also to learn how to do them properly.
It can get a bit boring after a while, but not really any different to camping the same mob/camp for many hours.
I played vanguard recently and enjoyed that version more.
People who are saying dumb things like writs and dailies are the same are mistaken. Writs in the VG sense are great. You basically get materials and a small amount of money and you use them to grind out your exp in crafting. It makes crafting serious, makes people invest heavily in it timewise and separates serious crafters from everyone else. As someone else said, it is like grinding mobs in adventuring, which everyone who wanted this game as originally envisioned wants for adventuring. Writs are intelligent in crafting because it prevents two very critical things...1) people level crafting through making endless amounts of real gear, so gear is useless trash that is flooding the market and inevitably leads to quest/drop gear being the only useful stuff like in almost every other idiotic mmo and 2) given that people end up having to make real items to level, they dumb down the entire crafting sphere and make it easier to just make a few items to level because it is too resource heavy to expect people to put in the same amount of time per level as adventuring. VG was great because you had to spend similar time levels to level crafting, gear was useful when crafted ( I could actually regularly sell blue and yellow gear in addition to the rare orange stuff).
Dailies are stupid mini jobs that cheap PTW/FTP MMOs love because they offer a carrot to basically log in, so when people would otherwise quit, they get into a routine of logging in to complete their dailies and then log out instead of quitting. It just helps keep the playerbase on artificial life support. Not the same as being able to get writs as in VG, where the trainer gives you a special set of materials that only works for the task, you make the items and get some money and exp for your time...the exact same way you spend your time killing mobs. Spend some time grinding and get a little money.
Stop trying to indulge people who are not interested in crafting or don't want to invest in it heavily. Just like grinding mobs isn't for everyone, and raiding isn't for everyone and etc etc, you can't please everyone. If you do not want to spend the same amount of time levelling crafting mastery to specialize in a craft as adventuring and questing to 50, great. I don't generally raid, and I do not begrudge raiders for getting great gear or having stuff built for them. I don't whine and say, make it easier, faster, dumber so I can raid too in the exact way that pleases me. Do smart things like tying the very best raid gear to things like the very best crafters to finish epic items, so that the base is intertwined, but don't make everything hand outs.
High end dedicated crafters should be the source of the majority of the good gear. There should be basic stuff that drops like bronze armor (remember your first piece of bronze in Eq?) then the good and great crafted, plus some very rare drops, quested items, and epic stuff mixed in. This is hard to do when you make it trivial for crafting mastery. Yeah, time is what needs to be invested to master crafting...I love how people cry that they won't do crafting because it is boring, they don't like grinding at a crafting table, etc. THAT IS THE EXACT SAME ESSENCE OF EVERYTHING ELSE IN AN MMO. Grinding away your time to advance. Crafters get better by making and practicing, so it is reasonable. It has been said so many times...JUST COPY THE VG CRAFTING SYSTEM ALREADY (with a couple of adjustments for the economy).
I agree that we could do worse than copying from Vanguard. Of course, using that as a framework and improving it would be even better if it can be done without too many blunders and bugs. VR does have someone quite familiar with crafting on board now so that is grounds for hope.
Things that one does not agree with are not necessarily either "dumb" or "stupid". Let us all try to be civil.
It really is as simple as copying the Vanguard crafting system and mini-game to the Tee. That game doesn't exist any longer, that system is gone, so once VR emulates it for Pantheon, it effectively becomes the Pantheon crafting system moving forward and everyone will sing about how great the crafting is in Pantheon as the new standard. Nephele honestly has the easiest job ever created, he's almost guaranteed to be viewed as a design genius if he simply uses Vanguard as the starting point and comes up with any additional improvements.
So many people keep suggesting that VR just "copy Vanguard's crafting system". Not that it wasn't a good system, but every time I see that I can't help but wonder if no one understands that VR does not OWN the copyright to Vanguard (nor are they likely to have access to game code for it).
Vanguard's system might be a fine inspiration, but succesfully re-creating it without the game code or design specs (even if you change the names of everything in the system) seems like an awful lot of work to risk an infringement suit a week after release.
VR does not own the intellectual property for Everquest either - but a lot of things here seem awfully familiar.
Jothany we have been using the term "copy" as a loose shorthand. What we all mean by it is "Use Vanguard as an inspiration for the Pantheon crafting system just as Everquest is an inspiration for its adventuring system. Do not use the same names, change the details around, make improvements - we can do things better now than we could when Vanguard was developed expecially given how it was rushed out and then not-so-lovingly treated by Daybreak. But follow the basic approach in terms of an interesting and interactive crafting process and a far more complex than typical harvesting process."
dorotea said: VR does not own the intellectual property for Everquest either - but a lot of things here seem awfully familiar.Jothany we have been using the term "copy" as a loose shorthand. What we all mean by it is..."
That is a much more nuanced description of the idea, and one I can have much more appreciation for.
Thanks for the elaboration.
Nephele said:Hi everyone!
Let me start by saying that I really appreciated all of the responses to the previous topic I put up a couple of weeks ago. More than the individual ideas and opinions, just being able to see how everyone thinks about these topics is really helpful both to me as well as to others on the team. It helps us to be able to sort of step into your shoes as players and make sure that we're looking at things from a broad perspective.
So, with that in mind, I have another topic I'd like to bring up for discussion: NPC writs or work orders.
For those of you who have never experienced these in other games, think of them like the crafting version of a simple quest. You get an order from an NPC to go make (or gather) some amount of crafted items or resources. You do that and bring it back to the NPC for a reward of some type. Maybe it's experience, maybe it's coin, maybe it's faction - it depends on the game. Lots of games have these, although they're implemented in different ways.
What I'd like to hear from all of you is what you think of this kind of system? Is it fun? Is it tedious? Does it make you feel more in touch with the world? Does it feel contrived? Do you wish there was more to it in games that you've played? Do you like it the way it is?
There are no right or wrong answers here. There's no ulterior motive for this discussion and there's no design decision that hinges on it or anything like that. It is simply a topic that I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on. So just talk about how you feel. What do you like or not like about this sort of thing in games that you've played before?
Thanks in advance! :)
As long as it doesn't fall into the rut of "dailies" I think it can be healthy content. Here is a pro/con list of dailies from my perspective.
Pro- Some players have difficutly ice breaking into content. They either can't decide what to do, or don't know where to start. Dailies are a great way to smoothly introduce timid or beginner players to content. Some players like mindless repetitive content so they can detox from a stressful work day by "going through the motions" gaming. Dailies provide a productive outlet for said players.
Con- If the rewards are low, dailies actually become a noob trap time sync. If the rewards are good they psychologically manipulate players into thinking they are mandatory which leads to a time hog treadmill feeling to the game. Dailies often destroy immersion as you fix the same wagon wheel for the 19,276th time. Dailies create unnatural market pressures (Price of beer goes up because the cooking daily recipe is changed to barley stew).
Having said that, I think a there is definitely a healthy immersive way to integrate a writ system and furthermore, I would enjoy seeing a system like that in this game.
Here is how I imagine it working. The game checks population of materials in the local market, local node availability, local player gathering activity, and local player purchase interest (either through auction house and/or a buy order system). The goal of this check is to choose a project that uses overstocked materials with low player interest IF AVAILABLE and requires the tradeskill of present craftsmen IF POSSIBLE. The game then weighs that information against a list of construction or maintenance projects for the local municipalities. This list could inlcude small charity works like fixing the windmill of a local farmstead or it could be much larger projects like building or maintaining a commerce road.
Now once a project has been selected for this region, players can interact with npc's to get work orders to help with the project. I don't see a daily limit on the help. If you want to collect stone all day long to fix the cities roads then that is up to you. I think the profit for trading stone to the project managers should be less than what you would get by trading to players but come with some influence. I think the project manager should only be able to accept materials and services up til the project is fulfilled. Relevant tradesmen should be able to offer their time and services to the project managers as well.
This project is maintained until completion at which point the new or repaired entity is part of the landscape of the game.
A new project will be selected after a time period or when localized taxes reach a certain threshhold.
Some projects would require placement choices. This could be left to a developer, or the relevant craftsman(s) and/or gatherer(s) most involved in the project, or an elected town manager position (i personally don't believe in this option but it is compatible to the system. I recommend developer oversite if elected players are chosen).
Since the number of projects is tied to the taxes available, it is possible for big cities to have many projects running at once.
It is possible to introduce new content off of player projects. Example, a city grows large enough to need a sewer. A player construction project is selected to build a new sewer system. The players work to build the elaborate aqueducts. Inspired developers fill the aqueducts with gas bats and were rats. -The End-
The closer the devs are willing to work with players on the end result of a project the more bespoke each project would be. By limiting the number of large landscape changing projects per year, this prospect might be more feasible. For me, A community generated town and the organic resulting farm spot is worth more than any content release could ever be worth. Is such a thing even possible? How wonderfully different would each servers identity be?
Anyway, I would love to see something like that. For once, a writ system that matters to the world and helps immersion. Good luck with whatever you come up with.
-Gottbeard-
Eliminate 3rd party sites.
Make the NPC replace the third party site and engage the player in learning how to craft.
What I mean is, if a player wants to learn how to smith, it starts with hailing the blacksmith in the local area.
-sub-plot This opens up 2 things: 1. if you are a newbie or a native, you get basic-local-instruction (Take a rusty weapon and apply a sharpening stone- kind of thing) 2. if you are not a native you need tradesfolk faction to be able to speak to the smith to get the basic instruction. So you can be a journeyman smith in amberfaet, but in syronai's rest you are an apprentice and you have to learn their equivalent of the rusty sword/sharpening stone (coral rock and lime-crusted blade)
Hailing the blacksmoth for the first time gives detailed instruction to basic blacksmithing that is recorded in your trade journal. (As you learn recipes, you can open the smelter and see what ingredients you are missing without having to check what you need). These instructions are detailed for the first basic stuff, but intuitive enough to apply generally to other things as far as steps in the process. i.e. raw ore needs to be melted down, different mixes of ores create different things, termpers need to be brewed (go to the brewmeister!), melted ore needs to be hammered and shaped in a mold (Mold made of clay! go to potter!).
As your skill goes up , the smith recognizes this and can give you higher training/quests/more recipes.
As your skill goes up, if you find a strange ore, just puting it in the smelter reveals what other ingredients you need even if you don't have them or never discovered them. In the case of a temper... you go to the bremeister and click on the barell for the temper that you just saw in the smelter- nothing comes up. you talk to the brewmeister and...your skill is too low in brewing. You can still smith the item, you just need to get your brewing up or get someone who has high brewing to make you the temper.
But you know what the temper is, you don't need to go to tab out to an outside site, you have the recipe on your char's craft journal, you dont need to tab out to another outside site.
Gottbeard said:The game checks population of materials in the local market, local node availability, local player gathering activity, and local player purchase interest. The goal of this check is to choose a project that uses overstocked materials with low player interest IF AVAILABLE and requires the tradeskill of present craftsmen IF POSSIBLE. The game then weighs that information against a list of construction or maintenance projects for the local municipalities. This list could inlcude small charity works like fixing the windmill of a local farmstead or it could be much larger projects like building or maintaining a commerce road.
Sounds good to me. It might be complex to keep count the whole year round.
Perhaps in the design you can insert more defined scenarios. Where you have different reoccuring events that require certain tradeskills and resources. Hereby providing situation or opportunities for resources to be consumed and dissappear from the economy. This in larger numbers than normal. It might not always be the best fit to the current resource balance in that regional economy. But it could help the dev's to design a more robust system that they can roll out on a routine base. And there is nothing wrong with a shortage of resources from time to time as this opens up even more commercial/community opportunities.
These robust reoccuring scenarios, might be less taxing on the "keeping track of things" system of the game.
I can see many lore opportunities here to go with your suggestion.
Crafting quests would be cool to have. I would love for there to be unique quests behind trade skills. Go repair a nobles sword in the same dangerous location it was originally crafted in, now unlocking that location for you to craft special magic items in.
Repeatable faction quests sure up to a point. If you can get on good terms by "donating" time and effort in crafting sure. Perhaps you are apprenticing a master smith doing grunt work before he teaches you his secrets. Spam out quests for various master smiths all around the world. Getting on good terms with the master smith would also help get you on good terms with the city itself I am sure and a number of other factions in the city and their main allies.
Daily quests asking for random crafted items to generate a false demand does not sound fun. If you want to introduce demand create expendable throwaway items for crafters to make each teir. Sharpening stones for more damage or weapon maintenance kits to clean and oil your blade so you can extend the life of the weapon before you have to go get it properly repaired. I would much rather have consumables from evey crafter than see daily quests for people to craft tables.