I would not be in favor of NPC work orders unless they were orders to stock or restock a NPC vendor with a limited supply, or a custom order requested from a player at the NPC vendor that a crafter can fulfill.
I’d personally like to see the days of NPC vendors having infinite wares, while Crafters churn out endless daggers to the trash can for XP, Gone.
I would'nt mind seeing a a "writ" system involving players. For example i want a ring of ogre strength, i place all mats and X gold with a designated crafter npc, at which time player jewelers can look thru the writs available and craft what is profitable for them. This may breakdown with % chances to fail however. I am not sure how you would go about that. But it would be nice to see that interaction.
The poster above me is an imposter Hemlock btw. :)
As others have said there are many ways to make writs more interesting than they typically are. Unusually, for me, I have nothing to add to the good ideas expressed above.
I turn to the question of whether basic, unimproved, boring and tedious writs are a good thing to have. I conclude with no hesitation that indeed they are. Just as quests and tasks are far more interesting than killing endless mobs purely for the xp per kill, writs are a nice change of pace from making 100 daggers or 200 hilts or 300 belts for crafting skill-ups.
As with quests and tasks, the rewards can be tailored to the speed at which VR wishes us to raise our skills. Nothing is wrong with the concept of quests as used in games like WoW. What is wrong is how they allow leveling far too quickly and give far too much of a "golden path" to guide where a character goes from birth to level-cap. VR can tailor (yes I use this term deliberately) the reward from a writ to be whatever percentage of the skill-up from grinding for the same amount of time as VR deems best. VR can have a daily limit on writs to keep this as a pleasant change of pace, or VR can allow unlimited writs as another way to grind skill. Those are both real questions which I choose to ignore unless and until Nephele asks them. This post is tasked merely with saying "yes" to writs.
dorotea said:*snip*
I turn to the question of whether basic, unimproved, boring and tedious writs are a good thing to have. I conclude with no hesitation that indeed they are. Just as quests and tasks are far more interesting than killing endless mobs purely for the xp per kill, writs are a nice change of pace from making 100 daggers or 200 hilts or 300 belts for crafting skill-ups.
*snip*
Could not have said it better myself.
A long form writ/crafting quest that takes as much or slightly more time than it would take to craft 100 WoW style (single button, one input one output) daggers and rewards similar amounts of crafting experience (divided amongst the steps and or the writ completion) and non-cash rewards is a far better gaming experience with the added benefit of not flooding the market with worthless knives or making leveling crafting dependent on farming mountains of cash to buy mountains of raw materials.
Cheap, quick or easy, pick one.
Cheap – Crafting Writs. For the amount of crafting experience crafting writs would require the lowest amount of upfront resources to level crafting. The down side would be the time spent both running around between NPC and reworking the pieces until you are successful, (See my Choose your own adventure thread in the crafting forum https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12543/what-if-crafting-was-a-choose-your-own-adventure-story/view/post_id/243834) and the crafting objectives would be fairly difficult requiring even more rework time.
Quick – 100 Dagger combines. This young master need not care about wasting money, he is made of money. Just click through the crafting windows as fast as possible, ignoring rework opportunities, and just vendoring the results, only peasants make nails.
Easy – 23 daggers 23 hilts and 52 belts. You know what skills you need to raise and the items that will help you raise the skills the most with low risk of needing to rework. You carefully click through the crafting process make sure to waste as little fuel or time failing a step. Picking the easiest recipes that still advance your skills causes you the least headaches. You do still just immediately salvage your results for a loss on the material cost and you had to seek out and buy the most efficient recipe, recipes that you could have discovered or quested for if you had the will. It’s not fast, and you are certainly loosing money but man you could do this with your eyes closed (and did on several items).
Mathir said:I enjoy them. Hardcore crafters view writs as adventurers view grinding mobs to level up. I appreciate them because they weed out and present a barrier of entry to casual players attempting the crafting sphere. I have no problem doing 1000s of writs to reach max level, just like I have no problem grinding 1000s of mobs. All you need to do Nephele is copy/paste Vanguard's crafting system. If you can make minor tweaks to make it even better, then great. If you literally just port Vanguard's crafting system into this game, we're in great shape. Your job is super easy, no need to re-invent the wheel, that just ends in a crappy contrived crafting system.
THIS. EXACTLY 100% this. This post is completely filled with absolute truth.
A writ is very familiar with quest. I think if you think of it in that terms its easy to identify the Pro's and Con's.
Being forced to do writs because it is the most effective (fastest/cheapest) way to level up and gain XP is an AWFUL way to grind. It is not fun, but I will choose to do it to level faster. That is AWFUL. It's like grinding out the same kill 10 boars for 8 hours to grind adventer xp. Terrible. We all hate that quest.
However, the quest/questlines that we DO love are the epic and rare quest lines. Generally longer quest lines that give sweet rewards. I would like to see quest lines in tradeskills. An idea to this could be that after you sell a crafted item(s) on the marketplace, you suddenly get a letter in your mailbox from some NPC that has heard of your skill and needs an extra hand from somebody knowledgeable. He needs help keeping the fire at a precise temperature, or the threads tight enough, etc. And would either pay you handsomly with coin, or teach you a recipe, or allow you access etc. There is a TON of things you can do. This could even link into the climate system of the NPC asking you to go gather mats in this extreme climate, but will supply you with the appropriate glyphs if you gather for him, etc.
These are FUN quest lines. They are Adventureous and they REWARD.
Simply doing things to "get xp" is lame, boring, and will be a write off in my book. I'm not interested.
I've thought about checking out shadowlands several times now, but when I watch the preview/first impression videos I ALWAYS hear of dailies, or weekly caps, etc. and I immediately lose any urge to try it. Writs sound like dailies and repeatable "grind" quest.
You'll have to come up with something clever though. Tie Crafting into the perception system, tie crafting into quest lines, force crafters outside of hidden crafting stations into dangerous parts of the world, etc.
Many of the points already talked about in the replies are valid, so i would just like to add.
When you have recipes that go unused after you "level or skill" past them it seems like a real waste. So one of the best ways to keep older crafting recipes and materials relevant can be done with work orders. Higher level crafting and gathering writ's also allow some flexibility in session playability. There will always be folks who like to craft and gather, giving them a system to take advantage of is a good and healthy thing in the long run. Even if this system is simple and boring, according to some of you.
It is also a good way to help those crafters and gatherers keep a handle on a clear inventory. Also with a reward system, no matter how small, it allows you to be rewarded for the time you put into those things. People will do crafting and Gathering in any game that allows it, there is a pretty large portion of the player base that will use the systems, weather hardcore or only a little bit. Hanging stuff to do in a game is a wonderful thing, and being able to get something out of doing it big or small is going to provide life to that system.
Some of you argue that this is boring or meaningless, and you might be right about it. However that does not mean that you have to take part in writs. You should be playing a game to have fun, so i don't understand why more systems in a game are bad even if you never touch this kind of system yourself in game.
The short of it in my opinion is that I personally want as many systems in place as possible without compromising the overall integrity or playability of the game. I really hope to see writs in the game, even if for keeping low level crafting and gathering in play. Having it at a high level as well would be amazing if the rewards are not broken :D !! (hard thing to do there)
((Could not have said it better myself.))
Sure you could - as proof I can cite many of your posts. But thanks.
((All you need to do Nephele is copy/paste Vanguard's crafting system. If you can make minor tweaks to make it even better, then great. If you literally just port Vanguard's crafting system into this game, we're in great shape. Your job is super easy, no need to re-invent the wheel, that just ends in a crappy contrived crafting system.))
That Vanguard's crafting AND HARVESTING systems are a huge improvement over almost anything in the MMO genre today is, to me, manifestly and almost unarguably true. More than one of us have suggested improvements over the years but few if any have said the basic system would not go excellently with Pantheon. I heartily endorse the view that if Nephele and VR aren't certain that a new system would be clearly better, and take minimal resources to create, they should devote their expertise to improvements and updates not starting from scratch.
On the adventure side of Pantheon many things are in the design because they were in EQ. If no prior game had had corpse runs and severe death penalties I doubt if we would see them here for the very first time. If the crafting team treats Vanguard with the same deferene that the adventure team pays to EQ I will be happy as a pig in mud.
This thread has been shared as part of my CM content, please continue the discussion while abiding by the guidelines.
"Developer Feedback - (Crafting) How do you feel about NPC writs or work orders? Join the discussion on our official forums here: https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12544/crafting-how-do-you-feel-about-npc-writs-or-work-orders"
Depending on the benefit given by the writ or workorder I can see them as helpful additions. So to recover some costs of the crafting(higher return then selling them to a vendor)/ provide more chance of skill-ups/or even provide faction gain to a faction base I would be happy with them. I would also like it to be an option and not a requirement to do it. If people just want to sit down and craft 100 items in a row rather than craft 5 heady kiolas for a weird halfling then its their own choice.
Freeman78 said: If people just want to sit down and craft 100 items in a row rather than craft 5 heady kiolas for a weird halfling then its their own choice.
With a bit of trepidation, I feel compelled to ask what IS a heady kiola and more concerningly, what does a weird Halfling DO with them?
I believe it is important to include factions that are outside the scope of combat mechanics. In that regard, writs (much like those used in EQ2) make sense as a mechanism for reputation gain. It is to be expected that they wouldn't serve everyone's idea of fun, but if they are not implemented in a sense that makes them mandatory then I don't see a valid complaint. I personally enjoyed the long, arduous crafting grind towards a difficult to obtain title that the EQ2 writ system provided.
I remember doing writs in EQ2 and found them really boring but it's better than just crafting 20x of the same thing just to lvl and vendoring it. Maybe do something like that but spice it up? The rewards were always pretty poor. Give a rare chance to get a better tier writ with better reward. Could also have the writ NPC give a rare questline to go find something, bring it back and craft a slightly better (but still kinda meh)item. Would help tie the writ to the surrounding world.
I love the crafting quest and writ system as it makes tradeskilling more meaningful and interactive. I personally place heavy importance on crafting as well as questing, exploring, and raiding. I think it is great to have the ability to earn writ quest rewards while grinding out levels in crafting. Such rewards give extra incentive and purpose to the long grind of maxing out your tradeskill level. What I would like to see implemented is some sort of crafting faction line in which completing a ton of various writs will inevitably grant you max faction with the crafting guild. Obtaining maximum faction with your crafting guild would grant cool crafting titles such as "The Forge Hammer" for smithing or Master Chef" for cooking. Every tradeskill should have a unique title and outfit that can be unlocked through the crafting writ system. Completing crafting faction writs would add a profound sense of pride and achievement for your tradeskill profession. It would be awesome to have the ability to don, let's say, a complete chef outfit that gives a small crafting bonus along with a cool title to have in your name. Just think how cool it would be to look, feel, and be respected as a titled forge master?!?!
Mix up the nature of the writs. One writ may be to go out and gather a "shopping" list of different materials used in your particular crafting. The next writ will have you refine those materials into usable components. Then the following writ could be to craft the actual item. I strongly believe tradeskilling needs a degree of interactiveness, and writs greatly help ease the crafting grind. Just don't make the writs repetitive, meaningless, and boring. Breathe life into them and give them a purpose, and people will love doing them!
With a bit of trepidation, I feel compelled to ask what IS a heady kiola and more concerningly, what does a weird Halfling DO with them?
Well, Heady Kiola was an odd ingredient crafted with Brewing. Used for many recipes and quests including the Coldain Prayer Shawl quest. Which, btw, i hope they have epic quest lines like that in Pantheon.
That should of been a quote from Jothany, not sure what went wrong.
@hemlock Well , the content around the writs was boring, doing the actual crafting was what you expected to be doing. The lack of variation, change of scenery was the thing that was offputting.
How that system was ‘addictive’; with little personal input you experienced progress in some fashion. It was a very quick turn over. Large repetitions were done fast with little (material requirements) loss of personal goods.
I agree with @rydan that crafting orders and writs could be designed to take you out in the world and require different things depending on certain parameters (season, faction, race, class, level, time of day, urgency&distance).
@Sarim, you touch a valid point there. The eq2 system seemed to orient inwards instead of outwards. There was little design around having to reach out or team up during those writs or work orders. Basically, crafting was meant to be consumed solo. And that’s a missed opportunity and they dropped the ball there. A crafter in an mmo is still a player wanting to be part of that world. Crafting should never feel like a solo game within an mmo.
@eunichron gave it a nice summary for the basics concerning why they are primarily useful. For introductory purposes and to implement during world events. A lot of crafting content can be designed between events, that do not fit the writ/order description. It could still stimulate crafters to engage with the world, work together or follow down different paths of craftinglore.
As Vjek said, content is king when it comes to orders/writs. They can be perceived as ‘work’ and be tedious or they can be completed because the player is stimulated to interact with the world. More importantly, the motivation to engage in ‘small (frequently returning) similar looking’ assignments comes from the player. That falls or stands with well thought out content and npc behaviour/conversations and more globally designed need for a skill X by a player. If done right, the player might not feel the need to receive anything. Just the experience of going through the content and steadily progressing his character might be sufficient.
Also there needs to be another incentive than coin. The profit margin of doing these writs should be low if any at all. Completing these writs should advance the player and strengthen their connection with the world around them, rather than being a coin grab and never looking back.
@mathir I understand the love to grind. Short note: it’s not a given that you earn xp by doing writs in an mmo. It could have another value within the game, what is the purpose of writs for Pantheon’s world? Where I do want things to be different is how that grind is presented along the way. It can’t be that you only need to visit 1 location/npc to grind yourself to the next tier. A crafter should be stimulated to experience the entire content of the current or previous tiers as much as an adventurer would. And this would also be the case for writs. Sure you can have them for the grinders out there, but put some thought into how you’d present them.
@fancy I like the idea of really tying in writs with crafting societies. It can offer a lot of potential meaningful content. It’s similar to using this feature as a way to build a reputation within a region. The one thing we should be careful about is, that writs (and as a consequence progression with those crafting societies) should not be a must for every crafter. If you’re either a big shot (high up the crafting society by doing writs) or a nobody (same level crafter but with no writs), you’ve designed it wrong and you’ve created a railroad instead.
@trasak as writs can be used to provide content to the crafter “learning a trade, finding materials to practice with, finding clients for your meager skills and eventually improving ….” Are very good ways to immerse the player more. It really helps them with getting a feel for their craft, the nature of their craft and the world around them in need for such a crafter. Those 3 topics could very well be the core subjects where writs evolve around. A way to give them meaning and keep them valuable for the players without attaching coin or an xp reward to them at the end.
@JonWane I like the suggestion about keeping old recipes relevant. Perhaps crafting writs/tasks should be viewed broadly. And as new content is added, they frequently demand crafters to look up previous recipes. This could be because a combination of old and new is required or that new order just demands for an item from passed content. If you balance this right, you’ll unite the familiar with the new/challenging. This sounds like a reasonable idea to implement. This is relevant for advanced players and for starting crafters alike. The scarcity factor must still be present though or you’ll risk flooding the market and creating a gap between new and veteran crafters.
@lockless Crafting assignments could influence any kind of faction. Sure. However, factions should also decrease if you’re taking a break from those kind of assignments. Or work on different factions at some point in your carrier. It should not be a design where you just push all crafters to the same end of the line. Factions are alive or they should be in a living impactful world.
I am only a part time crafter in most MMO's and from what I experince I believe NPC Writs are ok for leveling but only to certain point. Let me explain, if max level for crafting 300 only use writs to get to 50% or less. After that I feel it gets tedious and boring....then i lose interests all together.
Now work orders that is a interesting concept. I think players should be able to create work orders request for other crafters or gatherers to take up. I think that will involve players to be immerse in the community and the economy.