Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

What planned feature(s) would you remove? (No replacing)

    • 810 posts
    October 25, 2020 9:01 PM PDT
    @Rydan I doubt they would take any of this to heart, also Progeny was already delayed to after launch to my understanding. I made the post more to see what others are wanting from the game my looking at what they are would be happy to cut. A few people mentioned inventory for instance, but I can't see an mmorpg without inventory.

    I see the games climbing, acclimation, and perception system as a great exploration mechanic. I know many people want the game to be adventurers slaughter hoards of baddies, but I think these exploration mechanics will make the world feel more alive. I love going around and seeing the world and all the strange places in every MMO, sadly that often just means you sneak, speed, or fly around checking things out.

    EQ2 put an item in the game that let you jump super high. It was a fluff item but my guild all called them "jump boots" I have more memories from EQ2 "climbing" with friends as a downtime activity than I do server firsting content.

    Point is if they learn anything from this post I hope it is that they still need to show off the upside to some of these mechanics.
    • 1315 posts
    October 26, 2020 4:22 AM PDT

    Jobeson said:  Point is if they learn anything from this post I hope it is that they still need to show off the upside to some of these mechanics.

    MMOs have tons of pullies and levers that make the game world function as a whole.  A short description of a few of the levers without context can be misleading and confusing.

    Snagging Olympeus’ list as an example

    - In-game items purchased with real world cash (e.g. Pledge Rewards)

                (can get behind this one and I am not thrilled that they are pledge rewards.  Forum tags and the like that are secondary applications are fine though)

    - Cosmetic gear

                (Often discussed and fought about.  I don’t think anyone want cosmetics from outside the world of Terminus.  The question becomes how much control over your characters appearance should each player have.  The mottely fool, everyone of x class and y tier looks the same, mix of appearance locked dropped items and customizable crafted items, Dapper Dan (in game items as the cosmetic layer and other in  game items as the mechanical layer)

    - Transmog

                (Really just a subset of any cosmetic system.  Could be crafters learning new textures, sacrificing higher tier items to force the stats onto lower tier items and making them no drop, or something else)

    - Climbing

                (Climbing might sound like a gimmick but “everything is climbable” is a big freaking deal game engine wise.  EQ was really only 2D with some slight surface hacks but everything was surrounded by bounding boxes.  Everything is climbable push the world to a much higher level of realism as well as shortcuts a lot of height exploits we have seen in other games.  Taking out climbing is like taking the Z direction out of the game)

    - Perception

                (We definitely need more info before we really know its purpose.  If it is just a game lore pop up window that’s not really worth the effort to me.  If it is a special horizontal progression that you can take or leave, again not super sold on its relative value.  Now if you turn it into a skill like Perception is in the Pathfinder RPG system then it could be the fulcrum through which players interact with the world.)

    - Progeny

                (Progeny is for replay ability.  Replay ability is important for the longevity of the game.  Pantheon will need some form of replay ability mechanic or over time a huge portion of the characters in game will be sitting at max level)

    - UI Clutter

                (I am for streamlined viewing experiences as well but at some point we need to get information from the game.  How we get that info can be negotiated.  I would go so far as to say I want 2+ screen mode where one monitor is game play only with almost no UI and my other screens hold lore, quests, group menus, raid menus, inventory, chat communications and target info.)

    - Ideas introduced by current CS / CM staff (reference dev. roundtables)

                (I must be missing the reference)

    - Direlord as a DPS/Tank hybrid.  Pick one class design. 

                (Interestingly enough I believe this is where the LAS come in (another hated and or misunderstood system).  As I have seen it the intent is to give characters enough abilities to fill two or even 3 roles but only enough action bar space to effectively do one at a time or hybrid two to a much lesser extent.)

    Most of these examples, and others in the thread, are good examples of systems that have a ton of background mechanics and reasoning.  Just ripping them out will break the game, they will need something roughly shaped like them to fill the game mechanic slot.

    • 245 posts
    October 26, 2020 5:18 AM PDT

    Not remove, but delay until after launch.

     

    - Progeny.

    • 1281 posts
    October 26, 2020 5:25 PM PDT

    Kinda been avoiding this thread, since this is not my game to build. But why not ... I'm bored tonight

    Things I'd be happy to go away (and why)...

    - Mentoring (just make alts)

    - Climate/acclimation system (normal resist are fine)

    - Inability to change abilities during combat (along with the extra 6 slots to add more strategy to sit/med/rest in combat which was a big part of EQ and sadly missing in Vanguard)

    - Cosmetic items (a foundational tenet of this game is "look at that cool item, I want it". Having cosmetic items completely revokes that tenet. Taking that way from pledgers will hurt less than cosmetic items will hurt the core of the game long term)


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at October 28, 2020 12:00 PM PDT
    • 810 posts
    October 26, 2020 11:16 PM PDT
    @bigdogchris many classes (not all from what we can see) have an ability to get out of combat to then prep different spells at the cost of one less ability. I like this idea to change things around on the fly at a cost as I am not a huge fan of changing abilities in combat. My opinion may change if their randomized npc thing can entirely shut down all fire damage or something along those lines.
    • 334 posts
    October 27, 2020 7:08 PM PDT

    Jobeson said: @Rydan I doubt they would take any of this to heart, also Progeny was already delayed to after launch to my understanding. I made the post more to see what others are wanting from the game my looking at what they are would be happy to cut. ...

    Thanks for the explanation\correction.
    Features can be made simplistic on first release, as alternative.
    Like Inventory list without separate compartments to open and organize with bags, etc. (a bag could then add a few more lines)

    • 1860 posts
    October 28, 2020 11:51 AM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    Kinda been avoiding this thread, since this is not my game to build. But why not ... I'm bored tonight

    Things I'd be happy to go away (and why)...

    - Mentoring (just make alts)

    - Climate/acclimation system (normal resist are fine)

    - Inability to change abilities during combat (along with the extra 6 slots to add more strategy to sit/med/rest in combat which was a big part of EQ and sadly missing in Vanguard)

     

     

     

    You are in luck.  Mentoring was removed from the list long ago.

    • 1281 posts
    October 28, 2020 11:58 AM PDT

    philo said:

    You are in luck.  Mentoring was removed from the list long ago.

    I recall them saying Mentoring may not be in at launch but no mention that it's gone forever. But was mentoring the thing Joppa said would never make it into the game as long as he's in charge?

    Oh I'm also adding cosmetic items to my list (a foundational tenet of this game is "look at that cool item, I want it". Having cosmetic items completely revokes that tenet. Taking that way from pledgers will hurt less than cosmetic items will hurt the core of the game long term)


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at October 28, 2020 12:01 PM PDT
    • 39 posts
    November 4, 2020 5:11 PM PST

    Shadowbound said:

    The mob level being displayed bugs me, a lot, these days. If you know the exact level a mob is, why even bother having a colour-coded system to display the relative level vs your own? If you know anything that's a set number of levels above you is red, then having that visual cue is completely irrelevant. The fact that you don't know the exact level of the mob you're fighting makes the combat far more challenging, I think.

    You're low on mana, and you've just been jumped by some roaming blue con mobs... are they high blue, or low blue? Knowing the level will make your tactical choices far too easy, especially when the number addicts start calculating the exact resist percentage of each mob, for each level, for things such as mez.

    I guess the point I'm trying to make is, if you always know exactly what you're facing, you will always know exactly what to expect, and that sucks when you're trying to make combat challenging.

     

    This is something that has always bothered me about games. Why not tie the information you see to a skill? Say Analyze? Allowing you to see more info up to any including weaknesses and strengths as you level up the skill. This could easily be "countered" by the level of the mob. So a Mob that is higher than a few levels of what your skill allows shows less or even nothing. And it could be countered by a buff that totally turns it off. (For say RAID mobs). Yea end game it wont truly matter as everyone will know everything about the mobs just because of the Google. But it could easily be a useful tool for leveling and for Roleplay. In addition to that it could be a way to make dungeon boss mobs different. See the Orc Mage boss? Today he is a fire mage and the analyze skill can point that out. Tomorrow however he can be a water mage. How you go about with those fights may differ if you know there is a difference to begin with. This will keep the skill more viable through high levels even with the google.

    • 129 posts
    November 6, 2020 1:53 PM PST
    High stat raid loot. Raiding should be a continuation of the journey. Rewards should be there, but not at the cost of forcing people to actually dedicate 3x a week raiding because no other gear comes remotely close in comparison.

    Raid loot should be incrementally better, not a major separation.

    So I would choose to remove it entirely if need be. Make it all multi person achievable quest loot.
    • 99 posts
    November 7, 2020 8:05 AM PST
    I could do without the climate affects taking up visual space on my screen
    • 303 posts
    November 8, 2020 4:04 AM PST

    SugarWood said: I could do without the climate affects taking up visual space on my screen

     

    It's pretty hard to imagine they wouldn't allow you to toggle off screen effects, its been a standard option in games for the past 15-20 years

    • 48 posts
    November 8, 2020 8:15 PM PST

    arazons said:

    philo said:

    Darch said:

    I completely understand where you are coming from, but EQ has a PvP server and it does not affect the PvE servers at all.

    This is incorrect.  There was an interview with smedley awhile back and he specifically commented about how items had to be modified because of how they effect PvP.  This is always the case unless PvP is instanced with PvP instance only items.

    That is how SWTOR did it for years, running a completely separate branch of stats and gear for PvP. So that adjustments to PvP did not affect PvE and adjustments to PvE did not affect PvP.

    EQ2 also did pvp gear as well (in their battlegrounds, and tdm stuff, not sure about the pvp servers though)

    Now neither game forced you to use PvP gear in PvP mind you, you could still go in with your pve gear but you would be severely gimped compared to those that wore the PvP focused stuff.

     

     

    PVP. I played EQ and EQ2, and I remember well when EQ2 introduced PVP, how they said it would not affect PVE players, how they have seperate tabs for skills so the PVP modifications would only affect PVP players, but it was blatantly false. As a few examples, Rangers had a skill called Thorny Trap, a trap you set and let mobs run into. When PVP was added, the trap was reduced to about half of it's size, as well as having the positional lock removed even on PVE servers. Rangers also had several ranged CAs that you could cast while moving, but they removed the moving aspect on all of them sans one (which required stealth to use).

    Additionally, when you dueled someone, damage was capped and resistances were borked for poisons, I removed my gear and had an assassin debuff my poison to ~ -3000 and the 6-800damage poison (forgot which) was only doing 200 and change. Dueling healers was super annoying because they healed at PVE rates while damage dealers dealt PVP rates. Literally often would take me 10 minutes to burn off their mana since I couldn't kill them quick enough.

     

    Aside from that, I am not onboard with class design yet. I think favored classes will be OP like usual (rogue, chanter, warrior, cleric, and bard) while the redheads will be fun to play but lacking (ranger, druid, direlord).

     

    edit - I forgot to mention, those poisons had a lure effect, because they were complete garbage and got resisted by just about everything a level or two above you. Fortunately, the devs blessed us by only taking a year or so to fix that...


    This post was edited by Merkades at November 8, 2020 8:19 PM PST
    • 1860 posts
    November 9, 2020 5:08 PM PST

    bigdogchris said:

    philo said:

    You are in luck.  Mentoring was removed from the list long ago.

    I recall them saying Mentoring may not be in at launch but no mention that it's gone forever. But was mentoring the thing Joppa said would never make it into the game as long as he's in charge?

    The thing CP said would never be in game as long as he was in charge was flying mounts.  You are right that mentoring was said to not be in for launch (reading in between the lines that means it is very tentative to ever make it into the game...if we get that far.  In my mind, knowing the source, we might as well think of mentoring the same way we think of colored mana.  Gone).

    Here was a thread discussing mentoring when the info came out that it was being removed:

    https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12015/caravan-and-mentoring-out-for-launch/view/post_id/234140

    • 810 posts
    November 10, 2020 10:33 AM PST

    SugarWood said: I could do without the climate affects taking up visual space on my screen

     

    I think it really depends on the climate effects.  I hope Pantheon's push for climate effects will mean they are not just a drain on resources but impact gameplay in multiple ways.  I would honestly prefer if they enforced a render distance via a fog climate effect or their darkness climate.  Prevent tab targeting on creatures you have no way of knowing are there.

    I don't want turning off climate effects to be like turning off smoke effects from smoke grenades allowing you to see through clouds of smoke or turning off grass renders to shoot people hiding in bushes.  I hope climates have a purpose and not simply a particle effect.  It is one thing to turn off light rain for performance.  It is another to turn off a hurricane just see everything clearly.  Turning off effects shouldn't give a player an advantage outside of a change in FPS.

    • 1281 posts
    November 10, 2020 10:54 AM PST

    philo said:

    The thing CP said would never be in game as long as he was in charge was flying mounts.  You are right that mentoring was said to not be in for launch (reading in between the lines that means it is very tentative to ever make it into the game...if we get that far.  In my mind, knowing the source, we might as well think of mentoring the same way we think of colored mana.  Gone).

    Here was a thread discussing mentoring when the info came out that it was being removed:

    https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12015/caravan-and-mentoring-out-for-launch/view/post_id/234140

    Yep, flying mounts sounds right now. Thanks.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at November 10, 2020 10:54 AM PST
    • 696 posts
    November 10, 2020 5:10 PM PST

    Hmm well a few easy ones of the top of my head would be:

     

    Flying mounts- Learn from WoW's mistake already please

    Progeny - Don't really care of it

    Acclimation - Would rather have resist gear play a role in gear farming rather than the cheap way the acclimation system is right now

    Transmog and Cosmetic slots- Go play barbie dress up somewhere else

    Housing- Go play barbie house somewhere else

    Death Pentalty- Just sucks from what I read

    Ingame map - Stares at map while running

    Quest Journal - No need


    This post was edited by Watemper at November 10, 2020 5:17 PM PST
    • 18 posts
    November 12, 2020 10:47 AM PST

    Out of the main 3 big new features planned, climbing, perception system, enviromental effects.

     

    Although I would participate in the perception system, It is the one I could live without.

    • 287 posts
    November 12, 2020 3:26 PM PST

    1. Progeny (if it forces retirement of the elder character)

    2. Progeny (if it forces retirement of the elder character)

    3. Progeny (if it forces retirement of the elder character)

    4. Console-friendly hotbars

    I've heard and read the arguments from VR in favor of tiny hotbars but I still totally disagree.  Making meaningful choices in combat is far more important and immersive than making meaningful (but uninformed) choices before venturing into the unknown.  Putting Cyclone on your hotbar should not make you have to forget how to cast Firestorm only to suddenly remember when you switch your hotbars after combat.  It's silly and pointless.  Stop trying to WoW-ify Pantheon by simplifying the game aka forcing the skill curve flat.

    As for progeny, any mechanic that allows me to retire a character to get a bonus on my next character that carries all the way back to max level is a terrible idea.  As a raider (I know, not super popular with everyone), if there is a mechanic that allows any kind of advantage whatsoever in raiding, it will be a requirement for hardcore raiding.  I hate the idea of scrapping a character I've spent so much time working on only to have to start over again -- playing endless hours to get back to max level asap -- just to maybe have to do it again.  I like my alts to be a break from raiding, not a requirement for raiding, and I like them to stay alts instead of my main.

    If progeny is merely a choice you can make that will somehow enhance your RP experience and maybe provide a small head start on leveling but has zero impact on end-game stats or abilities then fine.  No problem.  Still hate the tiny hotbars though.

     

    • 1618 posts
    November 12, 2020 6:13 PM PST

    Akilae said:

    1. Progeny (if it forces retirement of the elder character)

    2. Progeny (if it forces retirement of the elder character)

    3. Progeny (if it forces retirement of the elder character)

    4. Console-friendly hotbars

    I've heard and read the arguments from VR in favor of tiny hotbars but I still totally disagree.  Making meaningful choices in combat is far more important and immersive than making meaningful (but uninformed) choices before venturing into the unknown.  Putting Cyclone on your hotbar should not make you have to forget how to cast Firestorm only to suddenly remember when you switch your hotbars after combat.  It's silly and pointless.  Stop trying to WoW-ify Pantheon by simplifying the game aka forcing the skill curve flat.

    As for progeny, any mechanic that allows me to retire a character to get a bonus on my next character that carries all the way back to max level is a terrible idea.  As a raider (I know, not super popular with everyone), if there is a mechanic that allows any kind of advantage whatsoever in raiding, it will be a requirement for hardcore raiding.  I hate the idea of scrapping a character I've spent so much time working on only to have to start over again -- playing endless hours to get back to max level asap -- just to maybe have to do it again.  I like my alts to be a break from raiding, not a requirement for raiding, and I like them to stay alts instead of my main.

    If progeny is merely a choice you can make that will somehow enhance your RP experience and maybe provide a small head start on leveling but has zero impact on end-game stats or abilities then fine.  No problem.  Still hate the tiny hotbars though.

     

    Its always funny that all these people are whining about how bad Progeny is and how much they want it removed, when no real details of it have even been released. It's just a joining the bandwagon thing.


    This post was edited by Beefcake at November 12, 2020 6:13 PM PST
    • 810 posts
    November 13, 2020 2:22 AM PST

    Akilae said:

    Putting Cyclone on your hotbar should not make you have to forget how to cast Firestorm only to suddenly remember when you switch your hotbars after combat.  It's silly and pointless.  Stop trying to WoW-ify Pantheon by simplifying the game aka forcing the skill curve flat.

    Isn't this the opposite of WoW though?  WoW has/had the sea of hotbars with 50 abilities on them.  You are literally arguing they make it more like WoW.  I clearly remember having something like 7 or 8 hotbars up at all times with WoW. 

    I get the dislike for limited actions, but you can't WoW-ify the game by completely diverging from WoW. 

    Prepared spells have been a common thing in tons of games.  From the tabletop games that inspired EQ to countless games since which use limited action sets.  Prepared spell lists aka limited action sets predate WoW by decades.  Preparing spells means you have set everything up in advance to cast, be it the material components, magical runes or circles.  Having access to everything all the time is on par with eating 20 cheese wheels while fighting a dragon.  You can only have so many greatswords at the ready to be drawn before it gets really silly.

    • 1860 posts
    November 13, 2020 6:43 AM PST

    Beefcake said:

    Its always funny that all these people are whining about how bad Progeny is and how much they want it removed, when no real details of it have even been released. It's just a joining the bandwagon thing.

    Ya, lucky for them nothing is forced and participating in progeny has always been said to be optional.

    The people who complain about progeny havent run out of content repeatedly in multiple games and quit playing them because of it.  Progeny isnt made for them if they haven't.

    • 752 posts
    November 13, 2020 12:14 PM PST

    You could remove PVP and /duel and it would not impact me, but some people live and die by PVP. Pun intended.

     

    Progeny. Depends on implementation. I do not see myself restarting/retiring any character. If getting max level allowed for another character slot to open up in character menu i can get behind something like that. 

    • 128 posts
    December 5, 2020 6:05 AM PST

    I'd like to see the floating buffs over the mobs disappear.   I know you can config the UI so you don't see them,but I'd them invisible to all.

    Other than that, I'd like the death penalty modified, and hope gear damage gets removed.  I'd also be ok with removing the bard class.   Always thought that a silly class that didn't belong in an MMO.

     

    • 16 posts
    December 7, 2020 9:36 PM PST

    my 2 cents,

    Warrior Banners - distracting

    Acclimation system - keep it but get rid of the glyphs or w/e.  Just have it based on resists and gear.  e.g. If you're in a frigid climate as a tank you need to switch to alternative leather gear to avoid cold damage

    Climbing - I just don't get the appeal

    Borders around UI interface for climate you are in.  Distsracting and breaks immersion

    Numbers floating above mobs when damaging them.

    Target rings, yeah I know I'm in the minority on this one

    Quest logs, prefer having to look them up instead of having it at finger tips

    Mounts - escpeially flying but even horses

    In game maps

    I'm one of those that would like it to be everquest with better graphics.. but I understand that is not feasable if this game is going to get the player base it needs to thrive.  So am willing to accept the things I don't like in order to get the game I like.  The number one thing that would kill this mmorpg is lack of players so I'm okay with any or all of these dislikes being in if it means the game succeeds.