philo said:Adrenicus said:Just want to come in and show support to the perception system after noticing some opinions to suggest removing it! For myself and I believe a large number of gamers without a story it just is not a RPG. I am someone who always reads the quest text and I enjoy both local stories as well as the famous world/epic quests. Without some form of questing system I personally would not play the game.
Do you understand that there is a questing system that is completely separate from the perception system? All perception is there for is added lore. Not questing. We have been told that participating in the perception system will be completely optional.
The examples you give makes me wonder? From what we have been told both standard "quests" and "epic quests" would not require participation in the perception system.
I do Philo, I probably didn't phrase my response well enough. From my understanding there will be a lot fewer quests and a lack of quest hubs in comparison to what a more modern gamer is used to. I have nothing against the questing systems in more recent MMO's, however I do understand people's negative views towards them.
I was of the perception that the perception system would give some added story/lore to why I am exploring these zones/regions and add a further sense of mystery to them as opposed to just grinding mobs and collecting loot.
My personal worry for my own enjoyment of the game is that if the perception system was scrapped (which I really do not think will happen) there would not be a robust enough questing system to keep me interested in the game.
Like other people have said I see it as an optional system. I am very much a casual player and I have never done end game raiding and may never do this but I see its place in the game. But we are many years down the line and if it was something which was put on the backburner to be fleshed out post launch I wouldn't complain either to ensure we see a release.
BeaverBiscuit said:Arguments against things you like are not automatically needless/baseless complaints.
Customers stating what they don't want in a product is far from needless.
I don't think imagination is always baseless. If I offer you a mixture of 1 part oranges and 3 parts gasoline do you need to try it before you can tell if it is tasty or not? How is it that you feel safe assuming that I can't look at various Pantheon systems and guess, based on circumstances like what Pantheon aims to be, what is realistic in a game creation sense, what we've seen of different systems so far, and who the VR team are, what those systems turn out like?
Your comment is the most negative one here.
Uhhh, ok. You kind of took my baseless/needless comment and countered with a classic reductio ad absurdum(logical fallacy). So I'm going to let that one lay down by itself.
I'm unsure how anyone can expect people who haven't played the game to appreciate aspects of it's systems nor how they've been intricately implemented.
edit - chalk me up as a fanboi, or as a "Don't say you don't like it until you've tried it" boi.
This... is a weird discussion. But ok, I'll play.
For me, I wouldn't remove any major gameplay system or feature. I think all of them have a purpose and contribute to the ideal of Terminus as a world experience where players have multiple ways for their characters to grow and experience that world. I completely realize that some people think that the game should be all about killing things, and others just don't really see the appeal in perception, and no one actually understands progeny... but I think it's better to have a choice in what we do in-game than to not have one. If I think back over 21 years of MMORPGs, the games that I have stuck with the most are the ones that gave me many different types of gameplay to pursue, even if I didn't always pursue all of it (I don't really do PvP, as an example).
That said, I might potentially want to change the way that some things are implemented, but that's different. Game systems and mechanics can *always* be improved. It's hard to say without actually having experience with them in-game, but as examples, mastery feels clunky to me right now, and the acclimation system also feels like it is simultaneously over-engineered and missing something that will make players *really* respect the environment. I could see making adjustments to the combat gameplay loop and the way that classes use their different ability sets in order to make those classes feel more unique and compelling. And this is just stuff that I have seen enough about in streams to feel comfortable commenting on.
So, is there stuff I would remove? No. I think all of it has value. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I don't think narrowing the scope of Pantheon is the path to success.
Is there stuff I might tweak? Sure. And there always will be.
starblight said:Hands down my top pick would be PVP. I feel it is impossible to have PVP with out having an impact on PVE.
The point of PvP is to impact PvE, which is why it will be on a different server. Those interested in PvP are aware of this.
To answer the O.P. - I am not a fan of the "feature" of the Dire Lord being the tinfoil tank a.k.a lightning rod... (I like analogies) if an M1A1 is hit by lighting it may just lose the radio but could keep on ignoring the bullets. I strongly feel the same will happen "eventually" with the DL compared to the other tanks. People will find that its easier to pad their M1A1 against an occassional lightning strike, and accept the loss of their radio in order to keep kicking ass in every other fight instead of hoping nobody shoots at them while in their M3A2 (equiped with a lightning rod), waiting for a lightning storm to prove the other people wrong for choosing to drive the M1A1. Especially with some of the spoilers I've seen with shields (which the DL can't even use) and abilities that reflect spells back at the caster... Makes the DL seem more like a utility role than a tank "to me".
When trying to arrive at 1 or 0 most people can appreciate 1+0=1, and 1-1=0, but making 2x-1=0 just adds room for error because the instant the variable (of human ingenuity and human error) changes, things get hosed and people will stick with 1+0=1 so that they don't need to deal with the variable. Every other successful, non-skill based tanking (not required to dodge/move/avoid enemy animations to avoid damage like ESO or GW2) game that is still around today (including EQ and WoW, where its not expect to actively avoid enemy attacks because enemy animations don't match incoming attacks) has came to this conclusion - Please prove me right and change accordingly, or please prove me wrong VR.
Darch said:The point of PvP is to impact PvE, which is why it will be on a different server. Those interested in PvP are aware of this.
My point is that by adding PVP to a PVE game there is no way to avoid having an impact on the PVE only players. Even with the best intensions of the developers to not effect PVE I fear it is very likely that it will affect gameplay. But let’s just say they manage to make PVP with no changes at all to PVE abilities, game mechanics, etc. There is still going to be the splitting of resources. The resources spent on PVP could have been exclusively spent on expanding PVE.
But as I said in my original post I fully understand that PVP is planned and I am happy that PVE is first while PVP will be second.
starblight said:There is still going to be the splitting of resources. The resources spent on PVP could have been exclusively spent on expanding PVE.
I'm sure you didn't mean to, but that sounds exceedingly selfish. As in, they could have spent time on stuff that YOU like instead of spending time on stuff OTHER people like.
Jothany said:starblight said:There is still going to be the splitting of resources. The resources spent on PVP could have been exclusively spent on expanding PVE.
I'm sure you didn't mean to, but that sounds exceedingly selfish. As in, they could have spent time on stuff that YOU like instead of spending time on stuff OTHER people like.
Selfish but honest. The problem on how I see it is that mixing PVE and PVP is problematic for PVE. If you had a PVP only game and you added PVE it would have an impact on PVP sure but in my opinion, it would also make the PVP game a lot better by adding more content and more people to PVP with. But adding PVP to a PVE game is just a loss. To a PVE only play there is no added bonus to have PVP at all.
If you are a PVE only player it can feel like your gaming options are very limited. Most games I play are designed for PVP and I am trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. It does work but you are constantly reminded that the game was not designed with you in mind. So is it selfish to want just one game to be PVE only?
I might note that there is no hope at all that Pantheon will be a PVE only game so this is all just talk anyways.
starblight said:Darch said:The point of PvP is to impact PvE, which is why it will be on a different server. Those interested in PvP are aware of this.
My point is that by adding PVP to a PVE game there is no way to avoid having an impact on the PVE only players. Even with the best intensions of the developers to not effect PVE I fear it is very likely that it will affect gameplay. But let’s just say they manage to make PVP with no changes at all to PVE abilities, game mechanics, etc. There is still going to be the splitting of resources. The resources spent on PVP could have been exclusively spent on expanding PVE.
But as I said in my original post I fully understand that PVP is planned and I am happy that PVE is first while PVP will be second.
I completely understand where you are coming from, but EQ has a PvP server and it does not affect the PvE servers at all.
Darch said:I completely understand where you are coming from, but EQ has a PvP server and it does not affect the PvE servers at all.
This is incorrect. There was an interview with smedley awhile back and he specifically commented about how items had to be modified because of how they effect PvP. This is always the case unless PvP is instanced with PvP instance only items.
philo said:Darch said:I completely understand where you are coming from, but EQ has a PvP server and it does not affect the PvE servers at all.
This is incorrect. There was an interview with smedley awhile back and he specifically commented about how items had to be modified because of how they effect PvP. This is always the case unless PvP is instanced with PvP instance only items.
That is how SWTOR did it for years, running a completely separate branch of stats and gear for PvP. So that adjustments to PvP did not affect PvE and adjustments to PvE did not affect PvP.
EQ2 also did pvp gear as well (in their battlegrounds, and tdm stuff, not sure about the pvp servers though)
Now neither game forced you to use PvP gear in PvP mind you, you could still go in with your pve gear but you would be severely gimped compared to those that wore the PvP focused stuff.
philo said:Darch said:I completely understand where you are coming from, but EQ has a PvP server and it does not affect the PvE servers at all.
This is incorrect. There was an interview with smedley awhile back and he specifically commented about how items had to be modified because of how they effect PvP. This is always the case unless PvP is instanced with PvP instance only items.
It was items he mentioned in the interview I'm thinking of. Not spells or abilities. I wish I had a link handy but it was a few years old at least. It was about creating items and testing them before they went live. Having to limit what is possible because of how they would affect pvp.
It wasn't about changing or adjusting anything after the fact though that is another hurdle that has to be overcome...that happens in pve as well though pvp just adds another layer to it.
At this point with the size of the team they just don't have the man power to have a lot of variation in how things are altered from one server to another. I wouldn't be surprised that (if we make it to release) it ends up in a very lean state and I'm guessing alternative ruleset servers might be one of the first things to put on the back burner. That was Brad heavily beating that drum while CP was always about perception...we will see.
Remove:
Also could live without in first release
- In-game items purchased with real world cash (e.g. Pledge Rewards)
- Cosmetic gear
- Transmog
- Climbing
- Perception
- Progeny
- UI Clutter
- Ideas introduced by current CS / CM staff (reference dev. roundtables)
- Direlord as a DPS/Tank hybrid. Pick one class design.
Some really good lists in this thread. I'm on board with 90% of a few, just added a few tweaks for my list. Thanks to the OP for this discussion.
I presume VR considered moving certain aspects to future tennet to expedite development...
If enough pledger opinions, then VR could make choices based on this topic... if they don't coflict with current workings and related sources\zones.
If, for example, it takes a year of gameplay before progeny becomes a necessity.
Climbing is not required for first release zones.
etc.