Syrif said:eunichron said:Nowhere on the website, in the Overview or the FAQ, is realism mentioned, so I don't know where you got that from... but if realism is what you want, then why have a UI at all, and why not make the entire UX based on gestures?
LMAO! This is hilarious. If you read, you may have read where I literally just stated "MORE perception and realism than mainstream does." What do you think perception is based on? Feel free to reread and research the past 7 years if you still cannot understand that. Oh and feel free to watch some of the gestures on the streams while you are at it. Lol that's just too funny.
So you have a character sheet with your exact base stats, gear showing you the exact stats they provide, spells with tooltips that show the exact amount of damage or healing they might do, or what effect they might take, but knowing the exact level of the mob you're about to fight is too unrealistic and ruining your immersion? Do I have that right, that's where you draw the line?
How about a better idea, let's get rid of levels entirely. People in real life use firearms to protect themselves against bigger and stronger opponents all the time. If I'm lucky enough to find a Crossbow of Smiting fives minutes in on a new character, why shouldn't I be able to use it to take out raid bosses? It's more realistic, so not allowing me to take on a raid boss solo with my Crossbow of Smiting is ruining my immersion!
I could take you seriously if you actually had a sensible point to make in any of these threads you show up in, but I have yet to see one.
@eunichron Thanks for pointing out the issues people might have with a fully color based system. Syrif pointed out one way to handle this would be to use EQ conning system that puts the information into one of the text boxes. I feel we could do better though. What about having the option to toggle text in the target window for each con color. It could be the full name like Red, blue, Yellow. Or it could be just a letter R, B, Y, etc.
eunichron said:How about a better idea, let's get rid of levels entirely.
What part of the word "further" do you not understand? I even just posted the definition for you on my previous response. No levels is equivalent to no progression and challenge; no thanks. Also: it was actually Brad who championed the color system, not me. Why do people like the color system? Because it adds more to the wonder, unknown, perception, and realism in Terminus than what exists in mainstream. It also goes further with perception and realism; it's really not that hard to understand.
eunichron said:I could take you seriously if you actually had a sensible point to make in any of these threads you show up in, but I have yet to see one.
I find this funny. Brad championed the color system. Like many others, I stated that it works well for the tenets of Pantheon. And all of a sudden it's not sensible when I praise something that Brad not only accomplished, but got right for the genre? If you don't like what Brad did, that's fine Eunichron, but you can just say so. That seems more sensible.
Syrif said:I find this funny. Brad championed the color system. Like many others, I stated that it works well for the tenets of Pantheon. And all of a sudden it's not sensible when I praise something that Brad not only accomplished, but got right for the genre? If you don't like what Brad did, that's fine Eunichron, but you can just say so. That seems more sensible.
Oh I get it now, my immersion doesn't matter, only yours does. You could have just said that, at least I can understand that position, selfish and ignorant as it may be.
For the record, I don't give two shits about what Brad championed 25 years ago. I didn't even like EverQuest. I thought UO was the better game of the classic MMOs, but you don't see me here complaining that Pantheon doesn't have an isometric view or full loot PvP. I am here because I understand that having a social MMO doesn't mean it has to be a 1:1 copy of EverQuest, UO, or Asheron's Call, or any of those other games that were released before 2008. And VR, moreso than any other company making a "classic" MMO at the moment, has proven time and time again that they understand what they are doing in making a social MMO. So if Joppa and Machail believe their game can be social while having level indicators on mob nameplates, then I don't have any reason to not believe them.
eunichron said:I didn't even like EverQuest.
That's your prerogative. Many people came here because of Brad's accomplishments and his vision for Pantheon. Don't be surprised if people agree with what they believe he got right (like the color system over branded numbers) regarding the genre. That's all.
eunichron said:Oh I get it now, my immersion doesn't matter, only yours does.
And yet you brought up color blindness and I responded that in addition to the color system, perhaps people with disabilities can con the target for text if they struggle with color. Pantheon will be full of color, so it's not only targets that they will struggle with. Obviously, there will need to be tools to aid their disability. Anyway, the color system was one of Brad's accomplishments, not mine. I just agree with others that it applies well to the tenets of Pantheon in more ways than branded numbers do.
eunichron said:I am here because I understand that having a social MMO doesn't mean it has to be a 1:1 copy of EverQuest
In the 7 years I have been here since this launched, I haven't seen anyone claim that. And we now know there will be respawning with full gear and item durability in Pantheon. That actually exists in WoW; that did not ever exist in Classic Everquest. So, it would appear that claim is false.
starblight said:Syrif pointed out one way to handle this would be to use EQ conning system that puts the information into one of the text boxes. I feel we could do better though. What about having the option to toggle text in the target window for each con color. It could be the full name like Red, blue, Yellow. Or it could be just a letter R, B, Y, etc.
I definitely agree that we can do better. I like many of the ideas: hovering mouse over target, colored target windows, colored names etc. I was just stating that in addition to the colored system, the option to con the target for text can be there for the people who struggle with disabilities (like color blindness). Pantheon will be full of colors and it's not just targets that such people will struggle with.
eunichron said:Well said, very logical eunichron. In a game based entirely on numbers, it seems reasonable to show the paying customers the numbers, so they know exactly what they're paying for. Along with options to hide them, of course. :)So you have a character sheet with your exact base stats, gear showing you the exact stats they provide, spells with tooltips that show the exact amount of damage or healing they might do, or what effect they might take, but knowing the exact level of the mob you're about to fight is too unrealistic and ruining your immersion? ...
vjek said:eunichron said:Well said, very logical eunichron. In a game based entirely on numbers, it seems reasonable to show the paying customers the numbers, so they know exactly what they're paying for. Along with options to hide them, of course. :)So you have a character sheet with your exact base stats, gear showing you the exact stats they provide, spells with tooltips that show the exact amount of damage or healing they might do, or what effect they might take, but knowing the exact level of the mob you're about to fight is too unrealistic and ruining your immersion? ...
I agree everything should be hidden to increase immersion and make choices harder.
vjek said:eunichron said:Well said, very logical eunichron. In a game based entirely on numbers, it seems reasonable to show the paying customers the numbers, so they know exactly what they're paying for. Along with options to hide them, of course. :)So you have a character sheet with your exact base stats, gear showing you the exact stats they provide, spells with tooltips that show the exact amount of damage or healing they might do, or what effect they might take, but knowing the exact level of the mob you're about to fight is too unrealistic and ruining your immersion? ...
When you are actually adventuring you aren't staring at your own numbers; you are exploring the environment and the unknown, and the risks and challenges of the mobs and the environment. When you are raiding, questing, and venturing into the depths you are not given all of this information about the mobs with with the color system like how you are with numbers literally and physically stamped right on them. It's one thing to have exact numbers about your own char obviously, but it's clearly another thing to have exact number about the mob. The mobs and environment are something that we should explore; not given exact information. There will always be more immersion, unknown, wonder, and perception with the ranged color system than there will be with stamped numbers. This is why the ranged color system that Brad mastered is better than stamped numbers on the mob/environment. Add: explanation points floating above npc's head and branded numbers on mobs are things that WoW got wrong for example.
eunichron said:So you have a character sheet with your exact base stats, gear showing you the exact stats they provide, spells with tooltips that show the exact amount of damage or healing they might do, or what effect they might take, but knowing the exact level of the mob you're about to fight is too unrealistic and ruining your immersion? Do I have that right, that's where you draw the line?
Much as I don't want to get in the middle of an argument and defend side either in particular, this speaks to the OP, so I'll comment: Yes, those two things are very different.
A character having a good amount of self-awareness about their attributes and skills is nothing like somehow 'knowing' the 'level' of an encounter before you engage.
As I've noted before, I appreciate that the level indicator isn't game breaking, and it has some pros, but it certainly is a much greater impact on immersion and gameplay then a colour-based, level-range indicator (and away and beyond a character's own stats data).
vjek said:MauvaisOeil said: ... I agree everything should be hidden to increase immersion and make choices harder.Optionally hidden, sure.
Or are you saying no option to see any numbers, ever, at any time, including character stats?
Options aren't enough to 'fix' bad design. I'd much prefer the devs think very carefully about the impact of something on challenge than just provide an option to turn it off in case it is makes things too easy or damages immersion.
If they introduce a load of immersion harming, challenge effecting stuff in the 'standard' game then the way 99.999% of people experience the game will be effected.
The standard/base experience of Pantheon should be immersive and challenging. If options to turn things on/off make it *even more* challenging or immersive, then great, but if those options damage one aspect to gain in the other, that's not good enough.
I think it would have a bad impact of the social aspect of the game, also, for fundamentals of the game to be experienced differently depending on your options. One player will be excitedly and tentatively approaching and planning for an encounter only to have his group mates just impatiently pile in because they can see the level indicator that the other can't.
To add some hyperbole: Why not have an optional minimap or teleporting facility?
Khuul99 said:I agree that the colour code is good for determining the difficullty. The beauty of the old EQ version is that red can mean anything. If you are level 10 and con red, then all you know is that it's more than 3 levels above you but it could be 55+ so you are not sure that you can beat it.
However, I really don't think we need to know if a mob is aggressive or not.
I have to disagree on both points hehe.
The red from EQ was often silly. Having colours mean +1, +2 or +3, +4 and then +5 or +40 was a bit mad. At some level ranges, reds could actually be beaten with a good group (especially as it might not have been red to all characters and those it was red to could concentrate on support/utility/heals), but other reds would be literally impossible. I'd like to see red, purple and maybe a skull or something for "you need to be very good", "you really will probably die" and "honestly, guaranteed impossible".
I think the level bands in EQ were a bit too restrictive and lead to people just not attempting loads of stuff they maybe could have tried. More granularity is needed.
I should note that in this regard, the actual level number might be a good thing. Then the game is not 'telling' the player what it thinks is possible for them. The assessment and the risk is totally up to the player.
As for the aggressiveness, in a game where you have no way to test it without being attacked and chased to the zone line, there has to be some indicator. Unless they implement something like a feature that visually (or otherwise) displays aggression as you get *close to* the point at which they will attack? So there's some way you can retreat, but do have to undergo some level of risk? Maybe the aggression indicator doesn't work until you get close enough for a 'reaction', but not an attack? That would be nice.
vjek said:Well said, very logical eunichron. In a game based entirely on numbers, it seems reasonable to show the paying customers the numbers, so they know exactly what they're paying for.
So should they tell us how to solve every quest too? You know, because paying customers and numbers and stuff. Lol
disposalist said:As I've noted before, I appreciate that the level indicator isn't game breaking, and it has some pros, but it certainly is a much greater impact on immersion and gameplay then a colour-based, level-range indicator (and away and beyond a character's own stats data).
I appreciate your post, and I do even agree with it to an extent, but my overarching point was more that there isn't really any difference in having color codes or an exact level displayed. They both serve the same purpose, to gauge player strength versus a particular mob.
In EQ there was very little variation between mobs of the same type, so a range of colors helped obfuscate their difficulty when it was their level that was really the only differentiator between them.
In MMOs since there is comparatively a lot more variation not just between mobs, but also within any particular mob group. The difficulty there is obfuscated by the mob's innate abilites, not their static level. In that way colors, or even specific mob level, is mostly irrelevant, and becomes completely irrelevant once you hit the threshold that a mob is too powerful for you to take on. Now we have Pantheon adding Dispositions on top of mob abilities. Level ought to be even less relevant in Pantheon than in games like WoW, GW2, ESO, or FFXIV, that so many here are afraid of.
So I'll reiterate what I said in my original post: I don't care one way or another if it's colors or numbers, but whatever system VR goes with, and it looks like it will be numbers, I still hope that the game is accessible for those that need it.
Except that they aren’t the same thing^ Re thread: there is more than enough information and explanation to see that they are not the same thing. One is literally based on perception and the other is not. One is more immersive; the other gives it exactly. An opinion is one thing, but to say they are the same thing is false.
Try and avoid taking an idea or position to an illogical extreme so that it is easier to assault. That doesn't add to the dialogue it adds bile and causes distaste.
As to the original discussed topic of indicator of level?
I just hope I can learn to tell through observation of the mobs I battle. This allowing me to experience a learning moment every time I come into contact with another new mob. "What's that? I'll go poke it, RUN!"
Any mechanic that increases mystery is a plus in my book.
disposalist said:I think the level bands in EQ were a bit too restrictive and lead to people just not attempting loads of stuff they maybe could have tried. More granularity is needed.
I should note that in this regard, the actual level number might be a good thing. Then the game is not 'telling' the player what it thinks is possible for them. The assessment and the risk is totally up to the player.
As for the aggressiveness, in a game where you have no way to test it without being attacked and chased to the zone line, there has to be some indicator. Unless they implement something like a feature that visually (or otherwise) displays aggression as you get *close to* the point at which they will attack? So there's some way you can retreat, but do have to undergo some level of risk? Maybe the aggression indicator doesn't work until you get close enough for a 'reaction', but not an attack? That would be nice.
Agree on the point of granularity for the level difference indicator. Having at least one more level on the high side could help the player to make decisions without giving away the mob's level.
And yeah, of course the aggression is another thing. I'd like a "learning" consider system. For monsters and animals you should have some learned knowledge already when you start (like, rabbits are not agressive while wolves are, undead are always agressive, ...). But for faction based NPCs, it would be cool if it actually required one (or multiple) encounters to learn how they think of you before your consider showed you reliable information. For example:
When you first meet some kind of NPC with a faction and are not yet in their reaction range: "You have no idea how they think about you"
Once you get into reaction range and they react to you (positively or negatively) the system should update your "knowledge" for the faction and when you meet another of the faction: "You think they like you" or "You think they dislike you"
When your faction standing changes, the system should also take your current faction into account
The red con might have been better early on in EQ but later it for sure did not always mean you would lose the fight. This did at times cause confusion. It would be nice to add one addition con level between red and yellow. Something that would in most cases mean death but with the right group you could take it.
Weighing in on knowing a mobs agro even if it is your first encounter, I feel the consequences are too large to not know before you get into agro range if they are going to agro. If this was a rare situation, I might be more interested in not knowing but this would be happening a lot while playing. That is a lot of train to zone shouts.
StoneFish said:Any mechanic that increases mystery is a plus in my book.
The mystery is already gone by having any system that conveys mob power to the player, whether it's a color or a number. Knowing that I can solo a "White" mob, or that I will need a group to take on a "Blue" mob is functionally no different from knowing that I can solo a mob that is 4 levels lower than my player level, or that I need a group to take on one that is 6 levels higher than my player level.
Gintoki88 said:Its one thing to walk into a zone and see the first group of mobs show level 40 and be like "welp guess I wont be back here for a while"
Vs seeing them all con red and going "I'll be back in a few levels to see how they con later"
Exactly! There is more to test, explore, and learn with the color system than with stamped numbers that are just given. There are more possibilities and things to try out because the color range keeps an element of the unknown. It’s one thing to see a mob with the #31 or #43 on them, but it’s clearly another to perceive a range of the potential strength of the mobs in the zones and regions of Terminus with the color system.
In Pantheon, you venture and learn along the way. You also collaborate with your peers about what is discovered. That is key to exploration. Contrarily in WoW, it’s just given to you. “Look at that wolf! He has a #5 on him! No wait, look at this creature in this cave over here! What could it be.. it’s Sabertooth.. I mean, it’s a #18!”
Its interesting how such a simple thing as a number being shown or not can lead to such a discussion. Thats humans for ya!
The more I read about the pros and cons, the more I feel that they are not needed and personally, they are a distraction from the immersion I want.
I really think that gaining an insight to a mob's strength should be something that is learned. The first time you encounter a mob's race or species, it should be a mystery. You shouldnt immediately know at a glance whether you can take it out or not and knowing a mob's exact level goes a long way to working this out.
From a gaming point of view though, you obviously dont want deaths just because you dont know how hard a mob is, so there has to be something to warn players that this mob maybe too much to handle. So when you encounter a mob for the first time, a simple message should be provided by the con/mouse over/target or whatever. If it is a mob that is within your level; "x seems a worthy opponent" (maybe in white) could be displayed. For those mobs that are at the outer range of your level then; "It seems like a bad idea to take x on!" (maybe in orange). Finally "I wouldnt if I were you!" in red for those above that.
As you interact more and more with that mob's race or species, the more information you gleen from the encounter and so the con/mouse over (or whatever) would provide more detail. This would eventually lead to more colour bandings as your experience grows in understanding the mob. However a colour should never represent a single level so you would never be sure whether a mob was easy or tough. You would only have an idea of it's actual level.
This could just be another facet of the perception system that everyone would naturally use as they adventured. I also feel that this kind of system sits well with the tenants of the game and would add some jeapordy to encounters and keep the intrigue up.