Starblt- Classic Everquest did not have numbers floating above their heads. Outside of the Classic era are two very, very different games. Ppl over here usually refer to Brad's Classic Trilogy, the real EQ. Good mmorpgs did not have numbers floating over heads.
Syrif said:Starblt- Classic Everquest did not have numbers floating above their heads. Outside of the Classic era are two very, very different games. Ppl over here usually refer to Brad's Classic Trilogy, the real EQ. Good mmorpgs did not have numbers floating over heads.
I wanted floating numbers so I made two new chat windows. I adjusted one to show incoming damage numbers only and the other to show outgoing damage numbers only. I adjusted the income damage to red text and left the outgoing to white. I then adjusted the windows to be transparent and moved them to around the middle of the screen. This was all early EQ.
I kind of new people might question what I meant I should have take the time to explain.
Realised someone else basically posted the same thing.
I wanted floating numbers so I made two new chat windows. I adjusted one to show incoming damage numbers only and the other to show outgoing damage numbers only. I adjusted the income damage to red text and left the outgoing to white. I then adjusted the windows to be transparent and moved them to around the middle of the screen. This was all early EQ.
I kind of new people might question what I meant I should have take the time to explain.
I did the same thing.
vjek said: They (the combat related numbers) were/are, however, always in the client combat log, in EQ1, from Beta onward until today.
And your point is??
Also, where in Classic EQ did a number physically show on the mob showing its level? Because that's what was being discussed.
Stolen from https://everquest.allakhazam.com/eq_consider.html
The con message in EQ were based on a very simple algorithm that, at best, obscured the level of the monster with some vaguely 'immersive' text that could easily be reverse engineered into a level. It was far from an ideal solution.
In some ways, seeing the actual level means the player has to deduce the risk rather than the game telling them.
I'm honestly not convinced at this point what is a good solution.
(Rank, Message)
+4, ally
+3, warmly
+2, kindly
+1, amiably
0, indifferently
-1, apprehensively
-2, dubiously
-3, threateningly
-4, ready to attack
(Your Target's level difference to you, Consider color, message)
The /con message varies depending upon your level. It changes depending upon your level.
Character Levels 1 - 6
-4 and below Green - looks like a reasonably safe opponent
-1 to -3 Blue - looks like you would have the upper hand
even, Black/White - looks like an even fight
+1 and +2 Yellow- looks like quite a gamble
+3 and up Red - what would you like your tombstone to say?
Character Levels 7 - 12
-4 and below Green - looks like a reasonably safe opponent
-1 to -3 Blue - looks kind of risky, but you might win
even, Black/White - looks kind of risky..you might win
+1 and +2 Yellow - looks like quite a gamble
+3 and up Red - what would you like your tombstone to say?
Character Levels 13 - 14
-6 and below Green - looks like a reasonably safe opponent
-4 and -5 Blue - looks like you would have the upper hand
-1 to -3 Blue - looks kind of risky, but you might win
even, Black/White - looks kind of risky..you might win
+1 and +2 Yellow - looks like quite a gamble
+3 and up Red - what would you like your tombstone to say?
Character Levels 15 - 24
-6 or less, Green, looks like a reasonably safe opponent
-5, Blue, You would probably win this fight .. it's not certain though
-4, Blue, looks quite risky, but might be worth a try
-3, Blue, looks quit risky
-2 and -1, Blue, looks kind of dangerous
same, Black/White, he appears to be quite formidable.
+1 and +2, Yellow, looks like quite a gamble
+3 or more, Red, what would you like your tombstone to say
Character Levels 25 - 34
-11 or more, Green, you could probably win this fight.
-8 to -10, Green, this creature could pose problems, you would probably defeat it.
-1 to -7, Blue, appears to be quite formidable.
same, Black/White, looks like quite a gamble.
+1 and +2, Yellow, looks like it would wipe the floor with you!
+3 or more, Red, what would you like your tombstone to say
Character Levels 35 - 40
-11 or more, Green, you could probably win this fight.
-10, Green, this creature could pose problems, you would probably defeat it.
-1 to -9, Blue, appears to be quite formidable.
same, Black/White, looks like quite a gamble.
+1 and +2, Yellow, looks like it would wipe the floor with you!
+3 or more, Red, what would you like your tombstone to say
Character levels 41 - 44?
-12 or more, Green, you could probably win this fight.
-1 to -11, Blue, appears to be quite formidable.
same, Black/White, looks like quite a gamble.
+1 and +2, Yellow, looks like it would wipe the floor with you!
+3 or more, Red, what would you like your tombstone to say
Character levels 45 - 48
-13 or more, Green, you could probably win this fight.
-1 to -12, Blue, appears to be quite formidable.
same, Black/White, looks like quite a gamble.
+1 and +2, Yellow, looks like it would wipe the floor with you!
+3 or more, Red, what would you like your tombstone to say
Character Level 49 - 50
-14 or more, Green, you could probably win this fight.
-1 to -13, Blue, appears to be quite formidable
same, Black/White, looks like quite a gamble.
+1 and +2, Yellow, looks like it would wipe the floor with you!
+3 or more, Red, what would you like your tombstone to say?
Honestly to me a colour system may as well be a level system. It is the same thing really minus having a number. Depending on your group composition different mobs of the same level will present more or less of a challenge anyway. I'm not too bothered either way but I don't understand the extreme sentiment against it.
As to numbers over the heads, as a number of people have said you have all that information available already in a combat log. Surely just give people the choice whether they wish to access that or not?
Vandraad said:dorotea said:I don't want to type /con either - mousing over the mob should give the information. Or, at the very least, clicking on it.
Who in their right mind would, by this day and age, actually type out /con on every mob they see? Are you really suggesting that you do that? I highly doubt it. You, and everyone else, maps it to a single key.
Now is a single key press too much work/effort/tedium compared to a mouse-over? That is the real question.
At this point, we might as well just have the exact level number showing up. By the name we can infer exactly what class we're facing thus the range of abilities it would possess (given we've been told NPCs will have the same abilities available to them that players have), we know our faction standing even if we've never encounter that race of NPCs before, we know quite nearly its exact level given the color. Lets throw in the NPC's religion, social media page, bio, family history, aspirations and even phobias.
I want to hover over a NPC and know approx. level compared to me and if they are hostile or not to me.
I don't like the numbers either. During the stream, I asked if it was how it was going to be, or if it was just there for testing purposes, but got no answer. This isn't as big a deal to me as for example, having no corpse runs, or having in-game maps. But having numbers on the nameplates just feels 'cheap' to me. I almost feel like, if they're going to make it easier for the player by showing the exact level, they may as well add little icons as well to show the player the exact disposition of the mobs. But actually, isn't that what's supposed to happen with the perception system? A player with high enough perception will be able to tell the mob's disposition? Maybe showing the exact level should be tied in to perception as well, I could swallow that a little easier.
AgentGenX said:I almost feel like, if they're going to make it easier for the player by showing the exact level...
Or it is intended to be so challenging that knowing the exact level only gives players a fair shake at risk assessment. Given each stat is supposed to matter and likewise every level, knowing if a mob is +1 or +2 can be the difference between life and death.
Adrenicus said:Honestly to me a colour system may as well be a level system. It is the same thing really minus having a number.
It is actually QUITE different. The color system indicates a level range of the mob that aids the player (instead of just a number branded on the mob like you say). The color system enhances the perception, wonder, and depth in Terminus in more ways than 'a number branded on the mob' does. Brad understood this concept GREATLY, in reference to some of his major accomplishments. The color system (instead of a number branded on the mob) seems a better fit for the tenets of Pantheon, as the color system involves more thought and strategy and even collaboration with group/guild/friends at times.
dorotea said:mousing over the mob should give the information. Or, at the very least, clicking on it.
I much prever colour to a number. Less immersion breaking and better to get a rough idea than exact details.
Great idea! and I definitely agree the color system is much better than a mere branded number on the mob.
Syrif said:Adrenicus said:Honestly to me a colour system may as well be a level system. It is the same thing really minus having a number.
It is actually QUITE different. The color system indicates a level range of the mob that aids the player (instead of just a number branded on the mob like you say). The color system enhances the perception, wonder, and depth in Terminus in more ways than 'a number branded on the mob' does. Brad understood this concept GREATLY, in reference to some of his major accomplishments. The color system (instead of a number branded on the mob) seems a better fit for the tenets of Pantheon, as the color system involves more thought and strategy and even collaboration with group/guild/friends at times.
Exactly, and to add to that, as Disposalist posted, that level range broadens quite a bit as you advance in levels.
I like the number and how it is.
The con system is another useless relic of the past and a additional useless step before a encounter in comparison to the current system.
Yes , I understand the flavor and concept of the idea but being realistic its useless in comparison (you will con) and additional calculations on the server for no reason , besides making you /con in comparison to seeing a number.
I was wondering if im being bothered by lvl number in the nameplate but couldn tell since it seems to be just a small detail.
I remembered seing categorys in other games about mobs strength lvls, for example solo mob 1 star 2 star 3 star group mobs, which did really bother me since i was not used to it and it was kind of immersion breaking.
For example a solo mob was something very veak it could be a rat, while the same rat categorized as a 3 star mob would need a full group to be killed at the same lvl and could still wipe the floor with you, if it went wrong. I really disliked thoose categorys since i got used to Eq s system of not having such. It was kind of immersion breaking to see such different power scales in enemys just by that. You should be able to see a mobs power by its appearance not by it being categorized in lvls or solo 1 star 2 star 3 star per lvl, thats something i believe in.
So i tend towards not having shown the lvls in nameplate, since it should be a lot cooler then having it (i could live with it being there, but i would rather change its size, color, name, to show it is stronger).. but i really hope they never add solo 1star 2star 3 star elite and such ....thats something i seriously hate . Since i dont want to see big raid style like dragons in lvl 1 newbie grounds (that could be killed solo by a lvl 1 just because a text implies its a solo lvl 1 enemy, but 50 lvls later the same mob with the same look and size in a raid, as a bad example) i rather like to see a named rat there that looks a little bigger then a standard one to indicate it has more power.
It should add alot to the game to be able to kinda guesstimate a enemies power by its appearance.. better armor bigger size more muscles auras and so on. The con system is kind of a tool to make this a lil easier.
Instead of just adding a number.
I think I'd like something like a two-colour system on the monster target name (not in the nameplate. I think as much as possible the 3D view should be 'natural' and the UI should have any game info needed).
In the image attached, the Small Bat in the target element is orange risk level (probably quite a lot above you in level) and green in aggression/threat (non-aggressive).
I agree that the colour code is good for determining the difficullty. The beauty of the old EQ version is that red can mean anything. If you are level 10 and con red, then all you know is that it's more than 3 levels above you but it could be 55+ so you are not sure that you can beat it.
However, I really don't think we need to know if a mob is aggressive or not.
I do not think there should be specific level indicators on mobs, You all need to suck it up and deal. The ONLY specific indicator is, if its white, its your same level. thats it.
Why?
Because it also allows for undercons, which are a nice suprise and keeps you on your toes. Stop your whining. Because that Light-blue monster that just so happens to be trouncing you, unbelievably; does in fact mean you suck as a player. Yes it does. Until you find out it had high AC armor, or was holding a haste item, or had some buff that may have been put on by another player that left the zone an hour ago before you got there.
Green is easy way below your level and you get a smidge of exp,(to be killed by greenies is an ebmarrasement, to be killed by a hoard of greenies is....poor situational awareness)
Light Blue is doable not as low as green, and you get more exp,
Dark blue is a challenge, lower than you but still hard, good exp.
White is even, good exp nice challenge.
Yellow is tough, best leave it alone maybe 1 to 5 levels higher,
Red is an absolute no. Could be 5 to 50 levels higher- although the color doesn't change, this is where people come back saying the monster was a deep red and mean it.
I like hidden faction impacts. If the Centaurs are indifferent when I first come upon them, awesome. If I kill a few and then I notice they start to get apprehensive- thats an impact I am having on their environment and I had better consider if I want to continue because I may want to move freely through their territory in the future or what happens if I learn the centaur language? someone there may have some info.
I like suprise faction notices. Darned orcs! if I kill one and I see a faction message that my reputation with 3 clans has just gone down, where I didnt know I had faction before- you bet I woud take notice because the cultural environment has taken notice of me. That means I may have been aprehensive at first, maybe I could have walked into town and shopped a bit as an alien- taking a risk for sure- but my odds are better if I hadn't annoyed anyone yet.
I don't care one way or the other whether it's a number, a number range, a color, or a rainbow, but I had a few thoughts going through this thread...
First, color blindness. I am not color blind, but I do know quite a few gamers that are. A purely color based system massively disadvantages color blind players. You can make the argument that Pantheon is a group-centric game, and the likelihood of all six people in one group being completely red-green or blue-yellow color blind is extremely unlikely, but that would also neglect that people generally feel more comfortable and welcome knowing they have been catered to. That is especially true of people with disabilities.
Second, with today's data mining techniques, no matter how VR tries to obfuscate it, it won't take any time at all for players to discover the true level of mobs as it exists in their databases. It may only be a case of knowing that any specific mob may spawn within a certain level range, but that's funtionally no different than just putting the level on the mob's nameplate.
Fulton said:Syrif said:Adrenicus said:Honestly to me a colour system may as well be a level system. It is the same thing really minus having a number.
It is actually QUITE different. The color system indicates a level range of the mob that aids the player (instead of just a number branded on the mob like you say). The color system enhances the perception, wonder, and depth in Terminus in more ways than 'a number branded on the mob' does. Brad understood this concept GREATLY, in reference to some of his major accomplishments. The color system (instead of a number branded on the mob) seems a better fit for the tenets of Pantheon, as the color system involves more thought and strategy and even collaboration with group/guild/friends at times.
Exactly, and to add to that, as Disposalist posted, that level range broadens quite a bit as you advance in levels.
Yep! Good point. I really hope VR reconsiders, especially since perception and realism are supposed to go further in Pantheon than mainstream. This is something that Brad got right. People have posted several different ways it can be implemented, and honestly any of them are leagues better than the level branded on the mob.
eunichron said:color blindness. I am not color blind, but I do know quite a few gamers that are.
And I don't know of many who are, but those who are can con it for text if they struggle with colors. Some things will have to be done for ppl with disabilities obviously. Some great ideas on thread as the standard though! Pantheon is supposed to go further with perception and realism than mainstream does, and I'm sorry but numbers branded on mobs does NOT do that.
Syrif said:eunichron said:color blindness. I am not color blind, but I do know quite a few gamers that are.
And I don't know of many who are, but those who are can con it for text if they struggle with colors. Pantheon is supposed to go further with perception and realism than mainstream does, and I'm sorry but numbers branded on mobs does NOT do that.
Nowhere on the website, in the Overview or the FAQ, is realism mentioned, so I don't know where you got that from... but if realism is what you want, then why have a UI at all, and why not make the entire UX based on gestures?
eunichron said:Nowhere on the website, in the Overview or the FAQ, is realism mentioned, so I don't know where you got that from... but if realism is what you want, then why have a UI at all, and why not make the entire UX based on gestures?
LMAO! This is hilarious. If you read, you may have read where I literally just stated "Pantheon is supposed to go FURTHER with perception and realism than mainstream does." What do you think perception is based on? Feel free to reread and research the past 7 years if you still cannot understand that. Oh and feel free to watch some of the gestures on the streams while you are at it. Lol that's just too funny.
Add: (borrowed from dictionary.com)