vjek said:Mathir said:... 5. ... Hardcode in a program that prevents leveling past certain thresholds by certain timeframes.
So, based on their targets of 1-2 hours per day for casual and 3-4 for hardcore, how do those numbers work out?
Or put another way, what is the temporal XP limit, per day, that you would implement to reach the goal of no max level (50) characters until 6 months after launch?
27% of a level per day? more? Less?
I'd use overall xp totals. So, lets say it takes 100 xp to hit level 2, but one million to go from 49-50. Maybe the total is 5 million xp from 1 to 50. Lets say 30 days a month for 6 months for a total of 180 days. That's about 28,000 xp per day. Early on, hardcores are going to race several levels ahead, that's good, spreads out the population. So, early on, people might gain several levels a day. In the middle months, maybe one level per day. By the end, it might be a bubble a day (10%). That's actually not all that different from how it happened with EQ1 at launch, but people didn't power game and trade off shifts on the same account so much in 1999. But I certainly remember playing all day for a bubble or two on the xp bar, of course I was a troll sk, so I had some serious double penalties slowing me down.
OCastitatisLilium said:The hardcore, and "no lifers" are going to do that anyways, no matter what you put in front of them. They are going to skip content no matter how much or how little there is in between them and the end. Besides, they are paying customers too, but that's a whole other topic. In any event, the damage that they would do by just getting on YouTube or whatever, and claiming that the game sucks, is far less than what they would say if your idea is in the game. Sure, they can get on YouTube and say the game is garbage, but we are assuming that these are people that are well known on YouTube as hardcore gamers and power-levelers. So for a simple 'it sucks' no one is really going to mind that. Though, the second they start talking about having EXP locked being timed releases and progress being artificially held back, people are going to turn away far quicker than just simply having them say it sucks. Besides, having your idea implemented is an admission that that the game would have been released in an incomplete state and that they didn't have the funding to completion like VR has told everyone they had; which will be far worse than just having the YouTubers say it sucks. People are going to be even more pissed that they released an unfinished game, have the nerve to charge full price for it, and then charge a sub for it; this is on top of the extremely long development cycle that people are already complaining about. To implement your idea is going to be far more damaging for the game than just simply letting some power gamer skip everything as he wants and then say the game sucks.
Casual people are going to care that things are locked up and away from them, it doesn't matter how many hours they spend on it. The fact that you are locking anything away from them is going to upset them and they are going to be pissed that they are spending a full priced sub on the game when they can't go at their pace and get to the places they want to get to. You can say they don't care as much as you want, it doesn't make it true though. The moment that there is even an hint of something like your idea going on people are going to leave it in droves, you are doing nothing more than hurting the game like that. I am no hard core gamer, nor am I a "no-lifer" or even a power leveler, I maybe get time to play 2 hours a day even on my weekends; and I can tell you right now, if they were to put something like this in the game all in an effort to stop someone else in skipping content that they want to skip, I would be the first to tell my friend that they are charging full price and punishing me for some idiot who wants to pay full price to skip over half the game. punishing the casual player and assuming they won't care if you do, all in an effort to try and stop some power-leveler from getting to end game, is never a good business practice.
Well written response, I appreciate your effort here. Several things. First, VR is not funded through launch, they've long since clarified that. Second, there is zero chance they have a robust end game developed on launch day. It doesn't make them a bad company, it's just how MMOs have worked for 20 years. Generally the team will make an expansion to come out roughly 6 months after launch with more end game content, but in today's age, that's too long and won't work as has been proven out. So, I'm operating under the assumption that time and money will be at a premium and while VR might launch Pantheon with a ton of content, they aren't going to have the time or money to build out the end game prior to obtaining an influx of launch cash. This is similar again to pretty much every other game company and launch, both big and small.
With that in mind, you have to slow down the speed at which people race to end game if you don't have an end game. That's the reality. Sure, I agree, putting artificial restraints in a game is not ideal, but we know that if you don't, your game fails in this type of situation. We know that. So, it's about trying to save the game and give it a chance to get the end game content implemented before word of mouth sinks it.
The other main concept you might have missed, I'm sure I didn't explain it enough, is that casual and normal gamers would not even know or be aware that they are experience locked. They aren't going to play enough. It won't impact them one bit if implemented correctly. And again, it's not about skipping content, no matter what people can do that. It's about slowing down power gamers from getting to an end game that won't have enough content.
This idea also would have the side effect of allowing VR to release earlier, again its essentially an early access plan with rolling content. It's just that it only really impacts the hardcore playerbase, and again in regards to that, only those that solely focus on racing to level cap. There will be tons of horizontal advancement that this idea would not hinder at all. And those power gamers would be far, far, far ahead of the normal playerbase just like they love to be.
If you're suggesting some sort of artificial cap to force people to slow down you have to add suggestions so that it's not so obvious. I much rather see some sort of quest that will force you to break away from the level grind not an artificial limitation. Putting higher level content behind gates that require some sort of trial to pass, say to get to more exp rich content the monsters are in a zone that has a pretty detrimental atmosphere effect. To combat that effect you have to obtain appropriate gear that is not easily accessible or you need a certain acclimation item that in of itself is a pretty daunting task to obtain.
Speaking as more of a midcore person I much rather my artifical locks aren't so visible. I guess I'm hoping to see content designed to slow down progression while being a form of progression itself.
starblight said:While I expect I will level much faster in Pantheon then I did in EQ based on my own personal ability advancements I really doubt I would ever hit the barrier that Mathir is proposing. If it was implemented, I would not have it be a daily limit on exp gain but spread it out. Make the limit every 10 levels or something. Let people play hard core for burst of time without running into the limit as long as they also have periods of time they do not play.
I have never played on one but I think this proposal has real life examples. EQ has this on time stop servers, right? (no idea what they call the servers) They start with the original EQ and then open up expansions one at a time? I get the idea that a lot of people like this artificial limitation. I might not be implemented for the same reason but the outcome is very similar.
If a limit like this was implemented, I would take into account the content that will be available at lunch. Many people without a limit will rush to max level and feel they have finished the game but others will consume all the pre max level content and feel the game has been finished. It still amazes me today how little midlevel content WoW has even with all their resources. So, if the limit forced people to grind the same content over and over, I am not sure that would be an improvement for the players or the developers bank account.
An idea on how to make the players enjoy this artificial limitation is to have the actual limitation lifted by players completing a milestone in the game. It could originally be a timed change but instead of just increasing the level cap have a boss spawn that needs to be killed or something. Anyways just and idea to make it feel as if some of it is in the players hands. You could have it be a per player achievement but I like the idea of it being a server wide achievement. You could be the group/guild on your server that opened up the next level cap. It could be broadcasted to the world and memorialized till the end of time.
All good ideas, and we have seen some things like that in certain EQ1 progression servers that were based on killing certain raid mobs and doing certain achievements (epic quests) to open the next expansion. The big negative with that was on those servers the top guild just annihilated the content and opened expansions way faster than the normal and casual crowd wanted. So, it basically forced the progression servers to switch to being time locked. Which, as you stated, is extremely similar in effect to what I am proposing. The main difference, of course, being that they could experience whatever end game content was available before that time limit, and while that worked ok with EQ1 once all the end game expansions were unlocked, it would not work well if post launch content was not added in. WoW also did a few server wide events, just did it again on the classic server with opening the gates of AQ. Those are absolutely fun, though they never take very long to achieve. Days, a week at best. Still, I do enjoy them whenever they show up in a game.
But to the other concept you're disucssing concerning xp, absolutely I agree. The xp total would be tabulated on a daily basis from the launch of the game. A new account that joins up a month after launch would have all of that xp banked, that person could go 24/7 for weeks and weeks before even approaching the current cap. A player that doesn't play all the time, all that xp rolls over. I tend to favor a monthly cap, definitely not a daily one, but it's a flexible concept. Most casual or normal players wouldn't even know about the cap. They'd never approach it. Some hardcores that do a lot of horizontal progression wouldn't either, especially if they spend a lot of time camping rare items or spawns for quests. It only impacts the people that want to race to level cap and "beat" the game. And again, if the robust end game content is there at launch, they would not need this type of concept. But, if they need a massive influx of cash that launching the game would provide in order to create the robust end game, then they do need this concept. The worst thing that could happen is that players get to the end game of an MMO and it's not there. We've seen what happens in that scenario over and over again.
Grimix said:If you're suggesting some sort of artificial cap to force people to slow down you have to add suggestions so that it's not so obvious. I much rather see some sort of quest that will force you to break away from the level grind not an artificial limitation. Putting higher level content behind gates that require some sort of trial to pass, say to get to more exp rich content the monsters are in a zone that has a pretty detrimental atmosphere effect. To combat that effect you have to obtain appropriate gear that is not easily accessible or you need a certain acclimation item that in of itself is a pretty daunting task to obtain.
Speaking as more of a midcore person I much rather my artifical locks aren't so visible. I guess I'm hoping to see content designed to slow down progression while being a form of progression itself.
I agree with you 100%. And everything you just suggested has been stated to be in this game as a form of horizontal progression. I'm absolutely on board with your preference, it would be mine too, and I'm glad they'll have a lot of that in game. That being said, true 24/7 power gaming guilds that set up account rotations, they'll still mow through all that horizontal content insanely fast and still race to the end game in weeks. Nothing can stop people who play 24/7 except hard coding leveling gain. Absolutely nothing. My hope is that if they know they can't race to max level, they'll allow themselves to experience the rest of the game or maybe even make an alt. If designed the way I'm thinking, even an account playing 24/7 would have a hard time hitting the xp cap on two characters. But yeah, all for quests, camps, keying for zones, obtaining resist gear, and all that horizontal progression. Love all of it. Can never have enough. And I mean that literally too, I don't think you can actually create enough to slow them down naturally.
I laugh at the idea of puting limits on how fast players can progress with xp caps etc.
The goal being what exactly? To throw a wrench in the gears of the most hardcore so they don't burn out faster/consume all the content (assuming they could so easily do so with the lack of instancing to cater to them paired with xp loss on death) and then complain about it on streams etc? Do you really think these same people would not turn on the game even sooner by having such pointless artificial limitations placed upon them? This game would be torn apart with bad press in no time at all.
I do feel a little guilty as I contemplate the idea of limiting how fast people can level because I am 100% positive I would not run into the limit. I am not suggesting putting up artificial walls for my playstyle but for someone else’s. if the table was turned there is a good chance, I would not be happy about it. I am also not sure the reasons given are good enough to put up the artificial limitation on leveling.
We are talking about a small percentage of gamers that would consume the content fast enough to run into the limit. I do not see this small group no matter how vocal completely drowning out all the other players that are enjoying the game. People I know that are interested in a game try to find likeminded players to themselves when weighing the criticism or praise of a game. But if the developers focused on this small vocal group’s needs?
Admittedly my selfish stance is that if we can limit the speed of content consumption then the developers will be able to focus more on the journey instead of the so-called end game. But for me the end game is right before raids. So, I just run into end game a little sooner then some.
Iksar said:I laugh at the idea of puting limits on how fast players can progress with xp caps etc.
The goal being what exactly? To throw a wrench in the gears of the most hardcore so they don't burn out faster/consume all the content (assuming they could so easily do so with the lack of instancing to cater to them paired with xp loss on death) and then complain about it on streams etc? Do you really think these same people would not turn on the game even sooner by having such pointless artificial limitations placed upon them? This game would be torn apart with bad press in no time at all.
The goal is to provide VR with the finances and time to create a robust end game. They are going to need the finances that a launch would bring. They need those finances to create a robust end game. Chicken and egg. We've seen from pretty much every recent MMO, with SWToR being the poster child, of how an underdeveloped end game sinks your game even if the majority of the game has plenty of content. They need time after they receive the extra finances to really focus on the end game. Have to keep people from reaching the end game before it's ready. Only way to do that is to artificially slow down the power gamers. No other way. Especially if we're talking for six months.
And no, I don't think those same people would turn on the game. There is no other alternative to this style of game. Most of the hardcore crowd that would be interested in a non-action based MMO are after the EQ1 or classic WoW raid experience. This is the only thing that can give it to them in the pipeline. The only thing that will make them turn on the game is if the end game itself fails to deliver. And if they race to end game weeks after launch, I'm sure it will fail to deliver, just like every other MMO ever released. If they have to wait six months to experience it, as long as there is plenty of horizontal content to prepare for raiding, they'll do that.
There's a big difference between influencers going on YouTube and telling their followers "Reached max level, beat all the content within a month, game sucks, nothing to do, waste of time, don't buy it" and bitching about "Game has xp caps that only impacts power gamers. Lots to do in the game to keep you busy but you can't race to end game. This sucks". One concerns the quality of the content in the game, the other refers to racing to end game. Most people don't care about racing to end game. All people care about the quality of the content in the game.
Mathir said:The goal is to provide VR with the finances and time to create a robust end game. They are going to need the finances that a launch would bring. They need those finances to create a robust end game. Chicken and egg. We've seen from pretty much every recent MMO, with SWToR being the poster child, of how an underdeveloped end game sinks your game even if the majority of the game has plenty of content. They need time after they receive the extra finances to really focus on the end game. Have to keep people from reaching the end game before it's ready. Only way to do that is to artificially slow down the power gamers. No other way. Especially if we're talking for six months.
And no, I don't think those same people would turn on the game. There is no other alternative to this style of game. Most of the hardcore crowd that would be interested in a non-action based MMO are after the EQ1 or classic WoW raid experience. This is the only thing that can give it to them in the pipeline. The only thing that will make them turn on the game is if the end game itself fails to deliver. And if they race to end game weeks after launch, I'm sure it will fail to deliver, just like every other MMO ever released. If they have to wait six months to experience it, as long as there is plenty of horizontal content to prepare for raiding, they'll do that.
There's a big difference between influencers going on YouTube and telling their followers "Reached max level, beat all the content within a month, game sucks, nothing to do, waste of time, don't buy it" and bitching about "Game has xp caps that only impacts power gamers. Lots to do in the game to keep you busy but you can't race to end game. This sucks". One concerns the quality of the content in the game, the other refers to racing to end game. Most people don't care about racing to end game. All people care about the quality of the content in the game.
I know you quoted someone else, but I can tell you right now, that the people that stream it and make videos of it, are not going to say "Game has exp caps that only impacts power gamers. Lots to do in the game to keep you busy but you can't race to end game. This sucks" when it comes to having any of your idea implemented. What they will say is "Game has exp caps that limit you from getting anywhere in the game at any pace. This sucks, don't waste your money on it." That in itself is way worse than having someone go on there and be like "Reached max level, beat all the content within a month, game sucks, nothing to do, waste of time, don't buy it" They are already skipping horizontal progression as it is to power-level, and in neither case are they going to talk about the horizontal progression, no matter how much or how little there is. At least with the latter people can/might go "ok so he beat it in a month. Chances are I'm not going to do that, I'm busy with other things in life." and still give VR a chance and possibly buy the game and pay for a sub. With the former, people WILL go "what? That's garbage, I can't go anywhere without the company telling me so? I'm not paying for that, screw that." and then you will definitely have those people that will tell their friends, family, and anyone else they know not to get it. At least with the generic "beat the game in a month" complaint, you will have more people be like "well {insert power-leveler name here from YouTube/Twitch} said that he beat the game in a month, but that's him so I don't know. Take a look at it yourself if you want." You still have more of a chance of people getting into the game than you would with the limited option.
So... Three days into the game and a person with minimal sleep and max caffeine reach the first month's cap. Do you think they will happily wait around for 27 more days until they can level some more? What about people excited to play the game and have organized parties already set-up waiting for the launch so they do not have to spend time LFG? They already have the players selected and specific times to play. They hit the XP wall, will they be happy to wait until the XP cap is raised? What you are suggesting is to take the people that love the game enough to put in all of the hours needed and then pee in their Cheerios and expect them to be happy?
I understand your reasoning, I just do not believe it is the correct way to proceed.
streeg said:I feel like a lot of my vivid EQ memories can be related to slow leveling (mixed with some fear). Things like the griffon that would wipe groups fighting Orc camps in the Commonlands, the Sand Giant that would wipe groups fighting Dervs in Ro, Lockjaw that would wipe groups killing crocs in Oasis, or the high level undead that would come out at night in Kithikor. Yes, a large part was due to them being higher level mobs in lower level zones, but it was also due to the amount of time we spent in those zones because of slow leveling. In a time were the only maps were found on websites, I learned every inch of so many zones because we lived in them for great lengths of time. Modern MMOs have you leveling so fast that your moving onto the next zone before you get a chance to really learn your current zone. So many years later, you have few if any vivid memories.
This is so true. I played EQ for 4-5 years then on and off on P99. Played DAoC for 2-3 years, WoW for 5-6 years.
And to be honest, I can name dozens of EQ zones, camps, I can still find my way from place to place without maps, I still know where certain mobs spawn.
Yet I cannot name 1 zone/region in the other games, and would have no clue how to get from 1 city to the next by foot, without using maps.
As far as leveling. I don't care what other people do, if someone wants to reach max level in 3 days, thats on them when they are bored and alone. But as a casual player 2-3 hours several nights a week, I am not concerned if it will take me a year to reach max. Honestly, I typically don't care for max level. In most game I get into the 40's low 50's and start to get ALT fever, and create a new character.
It took me years to realize, I really enjoy the adventure and the experience more than I do just leveling up.
That being said, I also don't want to be a wee-little sub level 10 for months. I would like the first 10 levels to be somewhat quiker pace. Like 1-5 be your "introduction" and doable in 4-5 hours total, 5-10 take a 2 hours each average. After that a slow down is fine.
A big turn off, would be spending way too long in fear of the city rats. Players need to feel they have advanced enough to survive minimal encounters, and not spend months afraid of every rat or skeleton they see.
Like snow skiing, you can go from falling down just standing still, to downhill skiing relatively quick, but you need a lot more practice to get to the tougher slopes, and even more practice to get to jumps and slaloms, and even more for helicopter drops on mountain tops and uncharted slopes.
Mathir said:Maybe it's just the attorney in me...
That actually explains a lot. I've never a met a lawyer that wasn't so obtuse that they had anything resembling a firm grasp on reality.
Here's my new idea: Attorneys should be required to disclose their professional status before posting anything, so the rest of us reasonable people can know to automatically disregard their opinions.
OCastitatisLilium said:I know you quoted someone else, but I can tell you right now, that the people that stream it and make videos of it, are not going to say "Game has exp caps that only impacts power gamers. Lots to do in the game to keep you busy but you can't race to end game. This sucks" when it comes to having any of your idea implemented. What they will say is "Game has exp caps that limit you from getting anywhere in the game at any pace. This sucks, don't waste your money on it." That in itself is way worse than having someone go on there and be like "Reached max level, beat all the content within a month, game sucks, nothing to do, waste of time, don't buy it" They are already skipping horizontal progression as it is to power-level, and in neither case are they going to talk about the horizontal progression, no matter how much or how little there is. At least with the latter people can/might go "ok so he beat it in a month. Chances are I'm not going to do that, I'm busy with other things in life." and still give VR a chance and possibly buy the game and pay for a sub. With the former, people WILL go "what? That's garbage, I can't go anywhere without the company telling me so? I'm not paying for that, screw that." and then you will definitely have those people that will tell their friends, family, and anyone else they know not to get it. At least with the generic "beat the game in a month" complaint, you will have more people be like "well {insert power-leveler name here from YouTube/Twitch} said that he beat the game in a month, but that's him so I don't know. Take a look at it yourself if you want." You still have more of a chance of people getting into the game than you would with the limited option.
Completely possible. But all of this is kind of my point to some degree. These people only care about end game, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it spells the doom of your MMO if influencers rush to end game and there is none. History has shown us that. Nobody has tried to artificially slow them down from racing to max level. Could it fail as well? Certainly. But it hasn't failed over and over like not doing anything at all to limt them. This YouTube age has changed a lot of things. Bob, or Asmongold, or LazyPeon, or even Cohh, in his mom's basement actually can impact the success of an MMO. Especially if there is a large group of them parroting the same point. Not saying they are wrong, or bad people, or anything about them, just saying they can wreck an MMO's popularity. Unfortunately press and the media matter, as someone posted earlier, most people won't think for themselves, they prefer the less time intensive approach of being told ahead of time what to think. Critics and reviewers have always been big business for a reason.
I am open-minded to any other idea presented that hasn't been tried and failed in the past. I'm not seeing one. Maybe my idea would fail like you suggest, but it would guarantee VR the launch funds and at least six months of end game development time. It would guarantee that. And it wouldn't impact 90% of the playerbase who can play how they please. I also don't think it would necessarily be a detriment to the 10% of powergamers either, at least a portion of them would simply roll an alt or focus on the horizontal progression, which could and hopefully is massively time intensive. Farming mastery xp to maximize spells, obtaining keys to get into dungeons and raid zones, farming the glyphs and acclimation gear to get into those same zones, and working on epic quests. Hell, maybe they take the time to work on their perception flags and open up more locked content. The point is, this idea helps the company financially by allowing for an earlier launch, it doesn't hurt the casual or normal playerbase, and it helps keep the focus on the actual game i.e. the journey and the horizontal content.
Chogar said:So... Three days into the game and a person with minimal sleep and max caffeine reach the first month's cap. Do you think they will happily wait around for 27 more days until they can level some more? What about people excited to play the game and have organized parties already set-up waiting for the launch so they do not have to spend time LFG? They already have the players selected and specific times to play. They hit the XP wall, will they be happy to wait until the XP cap is raised? What you are suggesting is to take the people that love the game enough to put in all of the hours needed and then pee in their Cheerios and expect them to be happy?
I understand your reasoning, I just do not believe it is the correct way to proceed.
I understand your point, but they never reach a point where they can't progress their character. They can still farm mastery xp to advance spells/abilities. They can still unlock perception flags to unlock quests, zones, and mobs. They can work on camping gear for upgrades. They can work on lengthy epic style quests. They work on farming acclimation and glyphs so they can actually hit the end game running. There is never a point where someone can't advance their character. They are never stuck. I'm not sure everyone understands that. Yes, they can't race to level 50, but realistically in order to do end game content, there is a massive amount of horizontal farming and leveling (Mastery) that you have to do first as well.
As for your last sentence, completely respect that opinion. It may very well be a terrible idea. It could be a great one.
Fulton said:
This is so true. I played EQ for 4-5 years then on and off on P99. Played DAoC for 2-3 years, WoW for 5-6 years.
And to be honest, I can name dozens of EQ zones, camps, I can still find my way from place to place without maps, I still know where certain mobs spawn.
Yet I cannot name 1 zone/region in the other games, and would have no clue how to get from 1 city to the next by foot, without using maps.
As far as leveling. I don't care what other people do, if someone wants to reach max level in 3 days, thats on them when they are bored and alone. But as a casual player 2-3 hours several nights a week, I am not concerned if it will take me a year to reach max. Honestly, I typically don't care for max level. In most game I get into the 40's low 50's and start to get ALT fever, and create a new character.
It took me years to realize, I really enjoy the adventure and the experience more than I do just leveling up.
That being said, I also don't want to be a wee-little sub level 10 for months. I would like the first 10 levels to be somewhat quiker pace. Like 1-5 be your "introduction" and doable in 4-5 hours total, 5-10 take a 2 hours each average. After that a slow down is fine.
A big turn off, would be spending way too long in fear of the city rats. Players need to feel they have advanced enough to survive minimal encounters, and not spend months afraid of every rat or skeleton they see.
Like snow skiing, you can go from falling down just standing still, to downhill skiing relatively quick, but you need a lot more practice to get to the tougher slopes, and even more practice to get to jumps and slaloms, and even more for helicopter drops on mountain tops and uncharted slopes.
Good post and thoughts. I think it's on VR to make the leveling experience engaging, fun, and varied. You're absolutely right that you can't just be expected to grind low level mobs on end to hit the early teens. I hope, and I think, VR is addressing this by giving every starting racial area newbie zones starting around level 5-10, I believe they said that is when Halnir Caves starts. In the end, if we have various places we can go around the world early on, we have dungeons and challenges to farm for loot and coin, and the challenge and strategy is on point, then the game should be fun and advancement, in some form, should be constant. If the game is fun, we're all probably willing to grind longer. It's on them to make it fun and take a while to level.
@Mathir For clarity your idea would only be implemented for the first 6 months of the game right? If you started 6 months later there would be no limit?
Mathir said:I understand your point, but they never reach a point where they can't progress their character. They can still farm mastery xp to advance spells/abilities. They can still unlock perception flags to unlock quests, zones, and mobs. They can work on camping gear for upgrades. They can work on lengthy epic style quests. They work on farming acclimation and glyphs so they can actually hit the end game running. There is never a point where someone can't advance their character. They are never stuck. I'm not sure everyone understands that. Yes, they can't race to level 50, but realistically in order to do end game content, there is a massive amount of horizontal farming and leveling (Mastery) that you have to do first as well.
As for your last sentence, completely respect that opinion. It may very well be a terrible idea. It could be a great one.
How do you know they never reach a point where they do not want to (or can not) progress their character?
What you are basically saying in a different situation: Sorry crafters, but you can only make 1 item per day. Once you finish that 1 item go and explore the world and gain combat XP! Do you think people who want to be the best crafter on the server will be happy with that restriction? Will they complain and tell others how silly the crafting system is? Why not let the crafters play the game as they want and be the first crafter to make higher crafting items?
If people gaining too much XP to fast (so VR has time to develop late-game content) is your worry, there is 1 easy and simple fix. Increase the amount of XP needed by everyone. Just think of the amount of late-game content that can be created in a year after launch when the top 25% of people actually reach it...
starblight said:@Mathir For clarity your idea would only be implemented for the first 6 months of the game right? If you started 6 months later there would be no limit?
Correct, but that's just the length of time I came up with based on how long it took previous games to release their first expansion and end game content. Could be shorter, could be longer, all depends on VR's rate of development of that end game content. In a perfect world they get a ton of money, hire an army of coders and artists, and launch with a robust end game so that none of this would be needed. Just probably not likely.
Chogar said:How do you know they never reach a point where they do not want to (or can not) progress their character?
What you are basically saying in a different situation: Sorry crafters, but you can only make 1 item per day. Once you finish that 1 item go and explore the world and gain combat XP! Do you think people who want to be the best crafter on the server will be happy with that restriction? Will they complain and tell others how silly the crafting system is? Why not let the crafters play the game as they want and be the first crafter to make higher crafting items?
If people gaining too much XP to fast (so VR has time to develop late-game content) is your worry, there is 1 easy and simple fix. Increase the amount of XP needed by everyone. Just think of the amount of late-game content that can be created in a year after launch when the top 25% of people actually reach it...
I don't know if I agree with that analogy. I think it would be more akin to telling the crafters that they can't level up higher, but they could still learn new recipes and build an unlimited amount of things to sell or decorate their house with. Or perhaps go out and harvest up a ton of materials so that when you can level up again, you're stocked up and ready to knock it out. But definitely not that they can't craft more than one item a day. Even if an adventurer hits the xp cap, they still can kill, farm, gain mastery xp, and acquire gear. It's not like they have to stop and go craft or log out.
As for being the best crafter on the server, that probably requires gaining the rare materials as opposed to simply being the highest level. I get your point. I just don't think the crafting analogy really fits. And I also don't think an adventurer is best on the server due to their level, it's going to be because of their gear, which they have to farm.
In regards to the final point, I agree with you completely, and hope that is extremely slow. But, the trick there is that you don't want to punish casual players unfairly by requiring unreasonable amounts of xp to level. You could do rest experience to help them out as many other games have done. Or you could just slow down the power levelers. All viable options. My opinion though is that even if the xp required to hit max level is insane, if there is no limit, people will run rotations on the same account 24/7 and they'll get there far faster than anyone could ever have guessed.
Mathir said:In regards to the final point, I agree with you completely, and hope that is extremely slow. But, the trick there is that you don't want to punish casual players unfairly by requiring unreasonable amounts of xp to level. You could do rest experience to help them out as many other games have done. Or you could just slow down the power levelers. All viable options. My opinion though is that even if the xp required to hit max level is insane, if there is no limit, people will run rotations on the same account 24/7 and they'll get there far faster than anyone could ever have guessed.
So you do not want to punish casuals unfairly but you do not mind punishing the people that want to tear through the content/levels at a faster rate than others. I am starting to think this is not about making sure there is enough late-game content when people get to max level and instead you not wanting people to level faster then you think they should.
Chogar said:Mathir said:In regards to the final point, I agree with you completely, and hope that is extremely slow. But, the trick there is that you don't want to punish casual players unfairly by requiring unreasonable amounts of xp to level. You could do rest experience to help them out as many other games have done. Or you could just slow down the power levelers. All viable options. My opinion though is that even if the xp required to hit max level is insane, if there is no limit, people will run rotations on the same account 24/7 and they'll get there far faster than anyone could ever have guessed.
So you do not want to punish casuals unfairly but you do not mind punishing the people that want to tear through the content/levels at a faster rate than others. I am starting to think this is not about making sure there is enough late-game content when people get to max level and instead you not wanting people to level faster then you think they should.
This is pretty much my opinion. Those that want to limit others progression mostly want no one to be able to get ahead of them, because they can't play enough. It's a basic entitlement theory. If I can't have it, no one can. Because I have a life, no one else should be able to get farther than me.
Beefcake said:Chogar said:Mathir said:In regards to the final point, I agree with you completely, and hope that is extremely slow. But, the trick there is that you don't want to punish casual players unfairly by requiring unreasonable amounts of xp to level. You could do rest experience to help them out as many other games have done. Or you could just slow down the power levelers. All viable options. My opinion though is that even if the xp required to hit max level is insane, if there is no limit, people will run rotations on the same account 24/7 and they'll get there far faster than anyone could ever have guessed.
So you do not want to punish casuals unfairly but you do not mind punishing the people that want to tear through the content/levels at a faster rate than others. I am starting to think this is not about making sure there is enough late-game content when people get to max level and instead you not wanting people to level faster then you think they should.
This is pretty much my opinion. Those that want to limit others progression mostly want no one to be able to get ahead of them, because they can't play enough. It's a basic entitlement theory. If I can't have it, no one can. Because I have a life, no one else should be able to get farther than me.
While I am sure some might feel this way I definitely do not. It is not like this suggestion is for the life of the game. It would be limited to the original launch. Games like this are crazy at launch with way too many people. I want people to out level me so there is room to breathe. There is a difference between leveling faster and the very few that will race to max level at insane speeds.
starblight said:Beefcake said:Chogar said:Mathir said:In regards to the final point, I agree with you completely, and hope that is extremely slow. But, the trick there is that you don't want to punish casual players unfairly by requiring unreasonable amounts of xp to level. You could do rest experience to help them out as many other games have done. Or you could just slow down the power levelers. All viable options. My opinion though is that even if the xp required to hit max level is insane, if there is no limit, people will run rotations on the same account 24/7 and they'll get there far faster than anyone could ever have guessed.
So you do not want to punish casuals unfairly but you do not mind punishing the people that want to tear through the content/levels at a faster rate than others. I am starting to think this is not about making sure there is enough late-game content when people get to max level and instead you not wanting people to level faster then you think they should.
This is pretty much my opinion. Those that want to limit others progression mostly want no one to be able to get ahead of them, because they can't play enough. It's a basic entitlement theory. If I can't have it, no one can. Because I have a life, no one else should be able to get farther than me.
While I am sure some might feel this way I definitely do not. It is not like this suggestion is for the life of the game. It would be limited to the original launch. Games like this are crazy at launch with way too many people. I want people to out level me so there is room to breathe. There is a difference between leveling faster and the very few that will race to max level at insane speeds.
Your desire to put limits on the first six months only proves the point. The main effect would be to prevent people that want to enjoy the game for what you call "insane speeds" from progressing beyond those that choose not to spend as much time enjoying the game. Basically, telling people that you can't progress beyond those that don't spend as much time on the game. Basically entitlement theory, as stated before.