OP here. Just wanted to thank everyone who has posted so far. I've been following this game (and the subsequent message board) since 2016, but as my post count will obviously illustrate, I don't chime in often.
Just a few things I wanted to say:
I was hoping for a quick answer from someone in the know, and I'd move on. Haven't really gotten what I wanted, but disappointment is part of life. I certainly didn't expect this amount of spirited discussion, and I appreciate both the well thought out posts and dissenting opinions. Being able to disagree is one of the things that makes America great (and yes, I realize we're all not in America, but I am).
However...
Personal attacks? C'mon. If you've learned how to type, you're definitely old enough to know better.
That's all I'm going to say about that. Moving on.
My second point is Mathir's ideas. Some of you like 'em, some of you don't.
I'm a gamer. Have been for 20+ years. Spent a quite frankly embarrassing amount of time in some of the virtual worlds that are out there. But I love it. Not uncommon for me to spend 8+ hours a day playing these games. I've done the "Why is there so much light in my room? Oh, it's morning" all-nighter more times than I can count.
So when I hear an idea that limits my ability to play as long and as much as I want, yeah, I'm probably not going to be totally on board with it.
But reading his posts... I can't find much that he says that is inaccurate.
Look, I'm probably not going to be the first to max level. I don't share my account, and I like to do normal things like shower, eat, and poop in a toilet. But will I be in the top 10%? Probably. It's just the nature of the beast. I'm going to be online more than the hypothetical other guy, and my life is set up so that I have less obligations (family, job, etc... all currently at the "occasional routine maintenance" level).
But I have to agree with Mathir on several points.
While I don't know where the line is drawn between "hardcore" and "casual" gamers, those in the know say there are far more of the latter than the former. So, it makes sense to tailor your game to your bigger audience. Those "casual" customers are the people who are going to make you far more money (both because there are more of them, and because they take longer to finish the game, resulting in paying more monthly subscription fees). And while I know Pantheon is a labor of love, it's also a business. These guys want to make money when it's all said and done. It's their job. They love their work, they want you to play it, and experience it, and love it... but in the end, they also want you to pay for it. Nothing wrong with that, but money is often what drives decisions.
So, Mathir's idea would be a hypothetical way to make that work. Not saying I love it. Not saying it's a great idea. But it IS an idea, and a viable one. Don't have to like it to see its merit.
Additionally, many have said that gamers might take umbrage at having an artificial limitation in place. However, if I understand the idea, most of the target audience is not even going to notice it. They'll never run up against it. Again, that might anger some of the 10% (like me), but will I stop playing? Depends on if I'm still having fun. If I'm not, yeah, I'm going to leave. But that's pretty much going to happen to most people anyway (stop playing when not enjoying it, duh) so you're really not losing anything there.
Now, you'll still have to deal from the fallout of those people who stream and don't like having limits in place. YouTube, Twitch, and similar sites are a pretty big influence among gamers these days, or at least, that's the impression I've been given. I can't really understand why people want to watch other people play games when they could play them themselves, but hey, I'm old. I admit that I don't get a lot of things these days. But I think if the game is genuinely fun outside of XP, people won't care that they can't grind forever.
And I understand the burn of artificial limitations. Here's a limitation I can't stand: Tradeskills. You can only do one tradeskill. What? This irked me to no end when I saw it. Hate the idea. Mostly because I like doing tradeskilling. It's a nice break between adventuring parties. Also, I like being self-sufficient.
But if I want to do more than one tradeskill? I need to make another character. Which means I most likely have to level him up too. Nothing I dislike more than chewing up content I've already chewed to death previously. It's boring. Not to mention all the materials I can't use now. I either have to store on an alt for later, or sell to a vendor so I can buy more materials for the tradeskill that I actually can work on. And I'll be honest, I'm not going to make more than one alt, and maybe a bank mule. So the vast majority of tradeskill activity will be unplayed by me, thus limiting my experience. I find that vexsome.
I get why it is being done this way (to promote interconnectivity and communal reliance) but to me, I don't want it. I want to do it all, on one character. And I find the limit chafing. But... I remembered back to EQ (which is still my favorite MMO of all time) and remembered that you couldn't do all the tradeskills to max level then either. The rules changed periodically as to how many and how high you could go, but you couldn't max them all out until AAs came in. So, when AAs hit, I think it was the first thing I put points into. Not Shroud of Stealth (which was awesome), not run speed, not even Escape... but 7 ranks of Tanaan crafting. So I get why people might not want their proverbial ox gored. But things can always change and are subject to appeal (that was a lawyer reference for Mathir).
Just a quick side story on the Tanaan Crafting thing. Like I said, it was the first thing I put points into. There was another rogue in the guild who was sort of a frenemy. We got along well enough, but the competition to separate and elevate in the guild from each other was palpable. He put his first points into Escape, which was essentially a rogue aggro dump, and a raid saver. Obviously the better choice. But he had this Guildchat emote that would go off so that everyone would know he had used it... and I'm sure to point out that he had it, and I didn't. The emote would go off: ESCAPE USED! Kinda tweaked me. So when I got my Tanaan Crafting finished, I put an emote into my tradeskills that sent a message into Guildchat everytime I did a combine. TANAAN CRAFTING USED! TANAAN CRAFTING USED! Yeah, I'm an ass.
Anyway, this is getting a fair bit longer than I anticipated, so I'm going to sign off. If you've read this far, my congratulations, and also my sympathies. I know I can be verbose at times. Mathir, might not wholly agree, but I can't find a lot of fault past my personal preference. And I love the discourse and the ideas. Keep 'em coming.
Take care all,
Hiwin
P.S. Mathir, I hope you're not a copyright lawyer, because I'm totally stealing your "nipple pinching in a mirror line". Hilarious.
I am sorry it seems we are destined to disagree on this one. I would normally debate this more but I feel if we did it would bring nothing to the OP conversation so I will leave it at that. If for some reason you would like to you are welcome to send me a personal message.
Good stuff Hiwin. That's right where I am as well. It might be a surprise, but I'm firmly in the powergaming crowd as well. I expect to be at the tip of the spear experiencing new content, but maybe work keeps that from occuring. I'll definitely join you in the top 10% no matter what though.
I approached this xp gain question with what could slow me down from reaching end game too quickly, and outside of RL obligations, I can't think of anything unless my xp gain is held in check artificially. I kind of hope it is. What I proposed would not bother me as long as the horizontal progression is in place to build out my character. I'm also not an alt guy at all, but that would be the easiest solution to if I get annoyed I can't gain levels at any point. Knowing me, I would just farm rares though and probably help guildmates farm as well.
I agree that the game at all points has to be fun or none of this matters, addicting would be the cherry on top. That's all on VR. The only thing I dont want to see happen AGAIN is for an MMO to release and have minimal content at high levels or end game. Historically, I've stuck around a month after I hit max level before bailing out on games with an incomplete or non-existing end game like Conan, Vanguard, SWToR, and Rift. Which means I mostly bailed on those games before two months after launch. My friends and guildies largely followed suit. And all of us were angry, bitter, and let it be known. When the hardcore crowd hits max level, the end game needs to be in place, not several months later with the first expansion or patched in content. We've also never returned to games we left. That's probably the norm for consumer behavior. I was big into EQ2 when WoW launched, so by the time i jumped ship months later, Blizzard had their end game largely in place. That was the last game I played for multiple years until it stopped being WoW. The industry has been littered with disappointment since and really moved towards action based MMOs, but that's a different discussion.
I thought your crafting tangent was excellent. The truth is developers have always designed artifical limitations in their games in a myriad number of ways with the goal always being what is best for the health of the game. Those negatively impacted generally voice their annoyance, but as you mentioned with yourself and crafting, the individual tends to understand why it's being done and accepts it as long as the game is fun and has enough content to still be enjoyable. The rogue competition story was great! I think we've all been there and pulled those types of competitive shenanigans ourselves. I laughed.
Definitely not a copyright attorney, probably should have been instead. Don't think Kilsin enjoyed my joke, seems to have been nuked from existance, so you are all good. You seem like the type of player I'd enjoy running into in game. Hope that happens.
I am in agreement with many of the others here in thinking that the rate of experience gain is much less important than a fun and engaging leveling experience. In my opinion, however, this fun and engaging leveling experience goes in tandem with a slower leveling experience.
For me, the leveling experience becomes enjoyable when I feel that the game world is bigger than I am, that I am but a small part of something much larger, and that there are places to explore and storylines to discover. In many games I find that when I try to enjoy a game in this way, I end up "overleveling" because the experience gain is too quick for all of the content the developers created for their game. This ultimately makes me feel like I will be too high level for later content and trivialize it to the point the gameplay isn't engaging anymore.
Whether the rate of experience is slow or fast, the most important part is that the rate of experience fits the content of the game. This isn't an easy task, obviously. I would much prefer to err on the slow side where I can take my time engaging with the world and then finding that I need to grind a little bit to reach the next area, rather than on the quick side where I get too far ahead of the content and can't experience it in the designed way.
Some games have tried to get around the overleveling issue by setting levels for specific zones, i.e. if the zone is a level 15 zone, and the player is level 25, their level is set to 15. This works, but only up until the point where the player reaches the level cap. At that point, I often find myself skipping content that I feel won't give much of a reward to begin working on the "endgame" content.
To sum it all up, I think the best option is a slow leveling experience. Whether this rate of experience will mean reaching max level in 20 in game days, or 100 in game days ultimately depends on the amount of content within the game. When it comes to my leveling experience, I want to be able to explore most of a zone's content and still go into the next area at the right level. If this means a little bit of grinding, then I am happy with that.
I have no problem with making higher levels, progression, etc., hard to achieve. Make me work for it. But, don't punish me for playing the game for as long as I want.
If I have the free time and means to do so, let me progress. If two players have equal skill, strategy, effort, etc, we should be able to progress proportionately to our time in. If I play for 8 hours, I should get 4x the progress of me playing 2 hours, assuming all things equal. If I want to play for 24 hours straight, let me do so, and continue with my progression as if I had played twelve 2-hour sessions.
Why create a game, then punish the people that want to play it more, while rewarding those that only want to occasionally play.
If you want to slow progression, make the higher levels take a lot of time/effort/skill to accomplish. But, it's ridiculous to punish people for playing the game a lot or often, just based on how much they play.
Beefcake said:If you want to slow progression, make the higher levels take a lot of time/effort/skill to accomplish. But, it's ridiculous to punish people for playing the game a lot or often, just based on how much they play.
It’s so you don’t ruin the game. You really don’t get it do you. Why not make it so that everything’s the same like World of Warcraft. Yay, congratulations.
That's what I predict happening tho, given the crazy things joppa has been saying recently. The direction was better with Brad imho.
Beefcake said:I have no problem with making higher levels, progression, etc., hard to achieve. Make me work for it. But, don't punish me for playing the game for as long as I want.
If I have the free time and means to do so, let me progress. If two players have equal skill, strategy, effort, etc, we should be able to progress proportionately to our time in. If I play for 8 hours, I should get 4x the progress of me playing 2 hours, assuming all things equal. If I want to play for 24 hours straight, let me do so, and continue with my progression as if I had played twelve 2-hour sessions.
Why create a game, then punish the people that want to play it more, while rewarding those that only want to occasionally play.
If you want to slow progression, make the higher levels take a lot of time/effort/skill to accomplish. But, it's ridiculous to punish people for playing the game a lot or often, just based on how much they play.
I don't have any problem with slower leveling, but if it's adjusted based on amount of time played, then im completely against it because it would be a form of discrimination and it shouldn't be tolerated.
Syrif said: ... It’s so you don’t ruin the game. ...
" Oh, sorry, I'm at my cap for the day, gotta log to an alt or different account"
How is that social? In what way does that encourage players being social?
What? You don't think people with all the time in the world to play won't trivially bypass any limit you attempt to impose? C'mon now, this are human customers we're talking about. :)
vjek said:Syrif said: ... It’s so you don’t ruin the game. ...
This is a false premise. This one thing isn't going to ruin the game.
Lol. I never said that one thing alone will ruin the game. Ever consider what you wrote may be the false premise? Apparently not. Anyhow, then make the rate of progression at a very similar rate to the like of Classic EQ and DAOC. Pantheon should be made to last; not sold short. Thx for feedback but /yawn.
Syrif said:The direction was better with Brad imho.
In addition to his reputation of making one of the best MMOs ever, Brad also had a reputation for releasing incomplete and buggy games lacking features that were promised. It should be obvious to anyone paying attention that more progress has been made on the game in the last year than any year prior. Aside from the fact that nothing VR or Joppa have announced or shown in the last year runs counter to the vision or tenets Brad laid out for the game, I would rather that I get to play an MMO that is 98% of Brad's vision, than have wasted my pledge and not get to play one at all.
That remains to be seen, I still don't like what has been said and done recently. You are correct about Brad "making one of the best MMOs ever." I'm going to go with that reputation.
And, I will leave it at that.
Syrif said:That remains to be seen, I still don't like what has been said and done recently. You are correct about Brad "making one of the best MMOs ever." I'm going to go with that reputation.
And, I will leave it at that.
Unless you have a bug planted somewhere in Joppa's office, you don't know if what's been done with the game recently were Brad's or Joppa's ideas, you don't know whether they were even "changes" at all, because the team has been scant with details until recently, and I imagine this kind of reaction is exactly the reason why.
So get over it. Play the game or don't, but just because it doesn't match up to your impression of what you thought the game would be, does not mean it isn't living up to Brad's original will intent of what the game should be.
eunichron said:details until recently,
/yawn
Syrif said:Beefcake said:If you want to slow progression, make the higher levels take a lot of time/effort/skill to accomplish. But, it's ridiculous to punish people for playing the game a lot or often, just based on how much they play.
It’s so you don’t ruin the game. You really don’t get it do you. Why not make it so that everything’s the same like World of Warcraft. Yay, congratulations.
That's what I predict happening tho, given the crazy things joppa has been saying recently. The direction was better with Brad imho.
Hyperbole much? Yup, being able to play the game for as long as we want and continue to make progress will definitely ruin the game; turn it into WOW.
Syrif said:Counterfleche said: Fun fact: setting up diminishing returns doesn't prevent anyone from playing any more than having a speed limit prevents people from driving.Great! how about 2,000 mph speed limits!! Have fun maxing your char in 2-3 months.
Thanks! We appreciate your support in our race. We will make sure to mention you in our victory speech.
Beefcake said:Syrif said:Counterfleche said: Fun fact: setting up diminishing returns doesn't prevent anyone from playing any more than having a speed limit prevents people from driving.Great! how about 2,000 mph speed limits!! Have fun maxing your char in 2-3 months.
Thanks! We appreciate your support in our race. We will make sure to mention you in our victory speech.
Why Thankie! Lemme guess, does Beefcake come in first place? have fun. Nothing more to say. Feel free to get back on topic at any time.
Syrif said:Counterfleche said: Fun fact: setting up diminishing returns doesn't prevent anyone from playing any more than having a speed limit prevents people from driving.Great! how about 2,000 mph speed limits!! Have fun maxing your char in 2-3 months.
What if people do though? A serious question for you. What if there are people out there that genuinely enjoy going that fast or doing things that fast? I'm not denying that there are people doing it just for server firsts and whatnot, but I'm pretty sure there are people out there that do enjoy going that fast. My other question is, not just for you, but anyone that wants to try and prevent people from going at their own pace; what does it bother you? How does that effect your game play? Ok so they get to end game, and? They get bored and leave, ok? you can go as fast or as slow as you want, why does it bother so many of you to have someone go at a pace they want to enjoy the game. The excuse is always the same, because they are skipping content and not slowing down to look at it...so what? what if they don't want to. In all the time I have been on these forums, I still get the same question that has yet to be answered; Why does that bother you and how does that effect how you play the game.
The other excuse is that it becomes the norm for the game and that if you don't follow that norm you get left behind. Then I sit here and wonder, you were already going slower anyways, taking your time and going through the content as you wanted, so what if someone in a higher end raiding guild gets to max level over you? some people's whole argument is people need to slow down and look around and that having any way to not do that ruins it for the person mentioning it...but how and why? What if someone doesn't want to look around and just wants to go ahead and play as long as they want and do what they want. It's supposed to be an open-world game, the more I think about it, the more you try to force people into playing the game your way is making it less of a sandbox open world and more on-rails no? Though to bring it back, what does it matter to you how fast someone levels? For all you know, they want to get story done and thne work on other things when they don't feel the need to complete the story...and what's wrong with that? Any form of artificial limit, or any limit, on anything that hinders player progression in any way; is not the way you want to go and it just makes people turn away from the game far more than anything else. Just let people play the way they want (within reason of course) and let them do their thing, while you and everyone else can do yours. Everyone's playstyle is different in the way they play an MMORPG, so just leave them be.
@OcastatisLilium The answer to your question is simple. Pantheon should be designed to last, not sold short. Why design something that is easy to rush through like WoW? Joppa said he expects avg people to reach max level in 2-3 months. Smh Really? It should take avg people much longer than that (I am a casual player), and if done right people will actually enjoy being there. Brad already proved such tenets work and work well. Brad literally said he "builds worlds, not games." He understood this and proved that people enjoyed being in Classic Everquest without rushing through it in a couple months' time for example - It was not designed to be a rushed experience.
I don't want to be in an mmorpg where playing casually means I'm at max level at several months and then left scratching my head. Yay? Lol that's literally one of four seasons in an entire year to reach max level. Really?
Syrif said:I don't want to be in an mmorpg where playing casually means I'm at max level at several months and then left scratching my head. Yay? Lol that's literally one of four seasons in an entire year to reach max level. Really?
I think you may want to re-read what people are against... People want leveling to take a long time. What they do not want is a hard cap as to how fast you can level that only applies to people who play the game with XP gain as the main focus (or play so much that XP gain is faster than their intended XP monthly allotment).
OCastitatisLilium said:Syrif said:Counterfleche said: Fun fact: setting up diminishing returns doesn't prevent anyone from playing any more than having a speed limit prevents people from driving.Great! how about 2,000 mph speed limits!! Have fun maxing your char in 2-3 months.
What if people do though? A serious question for you. What if there are people out there that genuinely enjoy going that fast or doing things that fast? I'm not denying that there are people doing it just for server firsts and whatnot, but I'm pretty sure there are people out there that do enjoy going that fast. My other question is, not just for you, but anyone that wants to try and prevent people from going at their own pace; what does it bother you? How does that effect your game play? Ok so they get to end game, and? They get bored and leave, ok? you can go as fast or as slow as you want, why does it bother so many of you to have someone go at a pace they want to enjoy the game. The excuse is always the same, because they are skipping content and not slowing down to look at it...so what? what if they don't want to. In all the time I have been on these forums, I still get the same question that has yet to be answered; Why does that bother you and how does that effect how you play the game.
The other excuse is that it becomes the norm for the game and that if you don't follow that norm you get left behind. Then I sit here and wonder, you were already going slower anyways, taking your time and going through the content as you wanted, so what if someone in a higher end raiding guild gets to max level over you? some people's whole argument is people need to slow down and look around and that having any way to not do that ruins it for the person mentioning it...but how and why? What if someone doesn't want to look around and just wants to go ahead and play as long as they want and do what they want. It's supposed to be an open-world game, the more I think about it, the more you try to force people into playing the game your way is making it less of a sandbox open world and more on-rails no? Though to bring it back, what does it matter to you how fast someone levels? For all you know, they want to get story done and thne work on other things when they don't feel the need to complete the story...and what's wrong with that? Any form of artificial limit, or any limit, on anything that hinders player progression in any way; is not the way you want to go and it just makes people turn away from the game far more than anything else. Just let people play the way they want (within reason of course) and let them do their thing, while you and everyone else can do yours. Everyone's playstyle is different in the way they play an MMORPG, so just leave them be.
I cannot speak for all racers, only myself. I plan, and have the ability to, take a month off work at launch. Usually I take a week or two for expansions and other launches, but plan more for Pantheon. When I do things like this, I play about 18 hours a day. I will most likely be part of a static group with like-minded individuals. So, yeah, I plan to get pretty far in that first month. I will miss out on a LOT of content. But, I will have toon that can compete at the upper levels, get some cool Firsts, and some recognition from those that I care about their opinions. I will get some hate from others. That's all good for me.
The best part is because I pushed so hard that first month, I can chill back and only play about 3-4 hours a day after that. I can relax, enjoy the high end content, AND create alts to run through everything I missed along the way for the next year or so until an expansion. I get to enjoy high content with my friends AND still get the rest of the content at decent times along with everyone else. It's the best of both worlds.
Some bad seeds will rush to the end and then complain. I give you that. It will happen. But, there are bad seeds in everything. Most of us, even us racers, are great people and a huge benefit to the game. We get to help test the stuff after release, before others have to experience the bugs. I will get to accomplish content, not simply follow the write-ups/cheat guides that will soon come.
Being a racer does not mean that I am skipping content. It just means that I get to enjoy it all at a different way than you. Either way, we are all having our version of fun and not harming anyone else in the process, not even @Syrif.