Syrif said:Beefcake said:If you want to slow progression, make the higher levels take a lot of time/effort/skill to accomplish. But, it's ridiculous to punish people for playing the game a lot or often, just based on how much they play.
It’s so you don’t ruin the game. You really don’t get it do you. Why not make it so that everything’s the same like World of Warcraft. Yay, congratulations.
That's what I predict happening tho, given the crazy things joppa has been saying recently. The direction was better with Brad imho.
You do realize that Joppa was hand-picked by Brad to be the creative director of this game, right? They spent a ton of time ironing out the various details of the game together and I'd be willing to bet that everything we have seen in 2020 is in line with the "Vision" that Brad/Joppa collaborated on and ultimately agreed to many years ago. I find your remarks pretty distasteful and hope you'll take some time to reflect on the manner in which you communicate. Anybody who has been paying attention to Pantheon over the years will recall how much effort Brad put into making sure that the community's trust extended way beyond him alone; he had full confidence in the team he assembled and went through great lengths to express that to us. I'm seeing more and more of these comments that suggest that Pantheon has had a sudden philosophical shift that embraces anything and everything World of Warcraft. These comments are either ignorant or disingenuous and neither of those qualities holds much weight if the goal is to provide constructive criticism. If that isn't the goal, what is? Instead of trying to fearmonger maybe you should put together a thought-out analysis that backs up your claims. Explain why and how you have arrived at these conclusions. If you can't articulate a problem then there isn't any real substance to the claim that one exists.
Honestly ad7, another argument with you sounds beyond boring. I recall you saying at one time you were not going to quote me anymore, yet here you are. This isn't the first time you equate criticism with "fear mongering" that's for sure. FYI - There is nothing to "back up." I do not like what I have seen post-Brad. Not only have I spoken with people, but I have read plenty that tells me I am definitely not the only person who feels this way. If you still don't understand any of this, then I have full faith you are a big boy and can take the time to come to your own conclusions on your own.
Mind you, I have no idea what you are talking about. I have been here since forums went live, as you can *clearly* see on my page... Moving along, responding to you again on this thread is a waste of time. I don't care to do another back and forth with you, but thanks *shrug*. It is funny to read some of the comments though. ;)
Chogar said:Syrif said:I don't want to be in an mmorpg where playing casually means I'm at max level at several months and then left scratching my head. Yay? Lol that's literally one of four seasons in an entire year to reach max level. Really?
I think you may want to re-read what people are against... People want leveling to take a long time. What they do not want is a hard cap as to how fast you can level that only applies to people who play the game with XP gain as the main focus (or play so much that XP gain is faster than their intended XP monthly allotment).
Thanks for your feedback and I see what you are saying. There is one problem though: Joppa is quoted here and elsewhere as literally saying he expects the avg player to take 2-3 months to reach max level. I would think that anyone remotely interested in what Pantheon was going for should find that disturbing. I mean why would anyone want that here. What Joppa keeps saying does start to seem like WoW- rushing to max level in 2-3 months, respawning with full gear, and item durability. And is it true mobs are going to have their level physically appear as a number on them too like in WoW?
I am in full agreement with you Chogar. Not only am I a casual player, but I want leveling to take a long time. Being an avg player myself, I sure like heck do not want to be at max level in a matter of 2-3 months.
Syrif said:This isn't the first time you equate criticism with "fear mongering" that's for sure.
That's an interesting pattern to recognize ... I wonder why that is?
Syrif said:FYI - There is nothing to "back up." I do not like what I have seen post-Brad.
I don't like bologna sandwiches but that doesn't really contribute anything meaningful to this discussion. If you can't articulate your thoughts then you're just blowing hot air.
Syrif said:Not only have I spoken with people, but I have read plenty that tells me I am definitely not the only person who feels this way. If you still don't understand any of this, then I have full faith you are a big boy and can take the time to come to your own conclusions on your own.
You have spoken with people and aren't the only person who feels that way? You're willing to provide details about that but can't be bothered to validate the actual problems that you seem so worried about? Seems like a really weak attempt at bandwagon fallacy.
Syrif said:Mind you, I have no idea what you are talking about. I have been here since forums went live, as you can *clearly* see on my page... Moving along, responding to you again on this thread is a waste of time.
What exactly are you confused about? Here is what I'm confused about. I don't understand how the day that you started your forum account is relevant to this discussion. This is why it's important to articulate thoughts. Context is important. Details matter.
Syrif said:Thanks for your feedback and I see what you are saying. There is one problem though: Joppa is quoted here and elsewhere as literally saying he expects the avg player to take 2-3 months to reach max level. I would think that anyone remotely interested in what Pantheon was going for should find that disturbing.
Again ... context is important, and details matter. You literally don't know what you're talking about and are using that lack of understanding as a basis for your suggestion that people should be disturbed. It's disturbing.
oh at7 your confusion had to do with your whole "anybody who has been paying attention to Pantheon over the years" line or whatever. lol
vthorm said:P.S. Mathir, I hope you're not a copyright lawyer, because I'm totally stealing your "nipple pinching in a mirror line". Hilarious.
Syrif said:oh at7 your confusion had to do with your whole "anybody who has been paying attention to Pantheon over years" line or whatever. lol
Interesting. What was your point? Are you denying the context that was directly attached to what you're quoting? For easy reference:
oneADseven said:Anybody who has been paying attention to Pantheon over the years will recall how much effort Brad put into making sure that the community's trust extended way beyond him alone; he had full confidence in the team he assembled and went through great lengths to express that to us.
Syrif said:Syrif said:Honestly ad7, another argument with you sounds beyond boring.
Here's my point in case you still haven't figured it out. Sorry, but not interested. Fare thee well.
Why am I not surprised? I make a decent effort to try and formulate arguments based on sound reasoning and logic. You may find that boring but your personal incredulity and/or lack of interest in reason and logic isn't an excuse to fearmonger. I call it like I see it. Farewell.
oneADseven said:Syrif said:Syrif said:Honestly ad7, another argument with you sounds beyond boring.
Here's my point in case you still haven't figured it out. Sorry, but not interested. Fare thee well.
Why am I not surprised? I make a decent effort to try and formulate arguments based on sound reasoning and logic. You may find that boring but your personal incredulity and/or lack of interest in reason and logic isn't an excuse to fearmonger. I call it like I see it. Farewell.
Believe me, my interest in reason and logic goes far and wide with people who I find interesting. Thank you.
Syrif said:Believe me, my interest in reason and logic goes far and wide with people who I find interesting. Thank you.
Right. You talked to people who agreed with you about stuff. Maybe you could ask one of them to stop by and articulate their interesting thoughts and get some real dialogue going.
I think it's a big mistake to build a world where a casual player can hit L50 in three months. Not a big mistake, a huge mistake. The only bigger mistake is to put some kind of artificial limit on experience you can gain in any time frame. I also think a toon should be able to do every trade skill there is. Unless there is some legit reason why a blacksmith can't be a spell maker. Let someone max out ten trade skills and be master of the universe. Player freedom is essential, within the world. If a player wants to hit L50 by playing 20 hours a day until he passes out. Let him. But he can't get any benefit from fighting grey mobs. He can't block lower level toons from drops. If there's nothing for him to do after he hits the two L50 raids in game, tough ****. He can wait for the next expansion, roll an alt or drop the game. I'm a casual player that will play 8-10 hours a day on a dozen alts because that's what I like. But I don't want to block someone else's play style. I don't think you build your game for the top 10% of the players. VR can't possibly keep everyone happy. Figure out who your target market is and build for them. There's plenty of feedback on these forums.
I think Joppa explained the reason for keeping your gear when you die well enough by saying you won't be able to do a corpse recovery unless you have your climate and atmosphere gear. It will still be hard. If it not hard enough for you, stuff your crap in a bag and run naked to get your corpse. You should have that freedom. He'll, only bind in your starting city. That will be hard. There's nothing stopping you. If you don't like item degradation, keep an extra set of gear on hand. One sword got borked, use another one.
So, is there any info on what the heck Joppa means by the avg player taking only several months to reach max level? Really? How is reaching max level in just 1/4th of a year's time sustainable? And to think hardcore players will reach max level even sooner than that, as he said. Isn't that how it is in WoW? How long does it take you to reach max level in WoW now, is it a couple months? I know WoW has respawning with gear and item durability, which Pantheon will now have too. The rapid leveling pace though? That does not sound good at all.
Iksar said:disposalist said:I'm sure I remember we had further clarification since that quoted Joppa comment. I think I remember him saying that he was talking about played time, not chronological.
The difference between "aggressive" and "normal" pace is that the aggressive leveler will be doing only that and in the most efficient manner possible. 10 weeks (240 hours) of solid leveling grind. The normal pace will involve all sorts of non-leveling activity like crafting and socialising. Even 'hardcore' raiders don't spend all their time leveling - raiding often leaves you losing experience.
*shrug* Maybe I'm mis-remembering and maybe someone will dig up the relevant info...
Yes he was talking about time /played, which is far different than just 2.5 months; it is 1680 hours.
At 1680 hours it would take a player who is playing 6 hours a day every single day doing nothing but leveling over 9 months to reach max. At a casual 3 hours a night that would take someone (again missing no days) over 1 year and 7 months just to reach max. An absurd amount of time.
The number is more than a little high and I feel it is entirely unreasonable to ask for some never ending grind or to cater to "no lifers" with such an extreme just to hit max. If the game is great then there will be plenty to do. Hell there are 9 races, 4 distinct roles, and 12(14) classes.
People appear to be ignoring our posts, Iksar.
I'm pretty sure he meant time played, not chronological time, and that he clarified that at some point.
As Iksar says, if it's time played then it would actually be a very long time for a 'casual' player to get to max.
Clarification is needed on what he is talking about and what the /played and chronological actually is. He mentioned it, so clarifying what the estimations are seems reasonable. Hardcore players will be on most of the day, so does that mean they will really be max level in around 2 months time? That doesn't sound great either.
There is little to no way to limit de dispredancy between a player that will grind 18h a day straight in the most efficient manner, the player that will play 6 hours a day while enjoying a various spread of activity, and the player that plays a few hours a week and try to enjoy his time at full. The spectrum is just way too wide for it to be containable, some will rush to max and feel very lonely for a while, some will never reach it before level cap is expanded, etc...
Syrif said:Clarification is needed on what he is talking about and what the /played and chronological actually is. He mentioned it, so clarifying what the estimations are seems reasonable. Hardcore players will be on most of the day, so does that mean they will really be max level in around 2 months time? That doesn't sound great either.
And around we go... A hardcore leveler will probably play ten times as much as a casual player and won't 'waste' time with crafting and other horizontal pursuits.
2 months for the hardcore will mean a year or more for the casual - that sounds a lot to me.
If VR made it so hardcore players took 6 months, the casuals would take 5 years!
As I've said before: The problem is not hardcore no-life account-sharing players getting to max quick. The problem is if the game mechanics allow them to dominate and control the high level content and them then noisily attempting to pursuade the devs that they are the real 'core' players and they just need more and more high level content.
As long as VR stick to a plan of releasing good quality content that appeals at all level ranges, then if the speed-runners run out of stuff to do that's their problem and no one else's.
I see what you are saying, but that still means a sizeable portion of the playerbase is reaching max level in the first couple of months, and that's even if Joppa was specifically only talking about /played. Casual time can be quite broad, as I'm seeing in the comments. 2 months is a mistake imo though. There have been some 'interesting' decisions being made about Pantheon. That's all.
oneADseven said:I don't like bologna sandwiches but that doesn't really contribute anything meaningful to this discussion. If you can't articulate your thoughts then you're just blowing hot air.
Ok, 1AD7. You need to check yourself right there. I will not tolerate the disparaging of Bologna sandwiches in this forum. You need to take a day and think really hard about your deli choices before coming back to this fine forum, and spreading that kind of hate.
Beefcake said:oneADseven said:I don't like bologna sandwiches but that doesn't really contribute anything meaningful to this discussion. If you can't articulate your thoughts then you're just blowing hot air.
Ok, 1AD7. You need to check yourself right there. I will not tolerate the disparaging of Bologna sandwiches in this forum. You need to take a day and think really hard about your deli choices before coming back to this fine forum, and spreading that kind of hate.
This guy gets it.
disposalist said:As I've said before: The problem is not hardcore no-life account-sharing players getting to max quick. The problem is if the game mechanics allow them to dominate and control the high level content and them then noisily attempting to pursuade the devs that they are the real 'core' players and they just need more and more high level content.
As long as VR stick to a plan of releasing good quality content that appeals at all level ranges, then if the speed-runners run out of stuff to do that's their problem and no one else's.
I completely agree with this
I think most if not all the posts seem to support slow leveling and like others, I worry that the described target time is too quick. But I need to know more about progeny to be too worried.
Syrif said:I see what you are saying, but that still means a sizeable portion of the playerbase is reaching max level in the first couple of months, and that's even if Joppa was specifically only talking about /played. Casual time can be quite broad, as I'm seeing in the comments. 2 months is a mistake imo though. There have been some 'interesting' decisions being made about Pantheon. That's all.
There won't be a sizable portion doing nothing but leveling 18 hours a days for two months solid. It will be a very small minority.
And it was that way in good old EQ. Yes, even in the classic days.
You simply can't stop some people powergaming to max in short order without punishing others and there really isn't much point as long as those powergamers aren't allowed undue influence.
Unfortunately, in Everquest, they were eventually allowed undue influence and expansions and improvements were biased toward them to the detriment of the game (in my not-so-humble opinion). As long as VR have learned that lesson, we are golden.
Disposalist- I still have some concerns, but your thoughts are helpful. Thanks