I'd like to see it be as close to original EQ as possible. Keep the hell levels but make them a little less hellish. Allow players to enjoy the game knowing it's going to be a long, enjoyable, adventure filled time.
I think 6 months minimum to reach max feels appropriate. The slower, the better. Would love to see Pantheon be as far away from 'It's all about the end game' crap that so many other games push for. IMO, the journey is more important than the destination in terms of max lvl.
eunichron said:Mathir said:Time lock xp gain. Make it so it will take 6 months to hit level cap at a hardcore pace. Figure out the ratio so that hardcore players will cap out each day and force them into horizontal progression while casual players will never actually experience the time lock. If you want to make this game about the journey and not just a rush to raid, then you have to make that journey both take a long while AND make it so it can't be bypassed with player rotations and a hardcore schedule. As a hardcore gamer myself, I have no problem with this concept. As long as there are plenty of other horizontal carrots to chase to be "server first", I don't mind diminishing the individual max level race. It would be healthier for the longevity of the game and would also hardcode in more development time to make end game raiding fantastic.
There are a lot of dumb ideas that get posted here, but this is by far the dumbest.
Players that encounter artificial limitations like that don't go chasing other "carrots", they get frustrated and either complain in game, on the forums, or quit. Taking away player choice is never a good answer.
FFXIV 1.0 did this with diminishing returns on experience gain- the longer you played, the less experience you got from the same mobs. It shouldn't even take you a lot of thought to figure out how that went over with the players.
Not sure why you need to insult someone's idea here to make your point. I think we can do better.
I'm a bit mixed on this, I'd like to see the earlier levels (1-10 ish) to be pretty quick to get players into the game and give players some chance to experiment with their classes to learn it's general strengths, weaknesses and flow while fighting. Love to see most be able to accomplish this within a few days to a week.
For what I consider the mid levels(10-35/39) I would hope progression would take quite a bit longer . Not just in the actual pace of exp accruing, but also this is when I expect to accomplish other feats neccessary to my characters progress. Between accumulating exp, establishing some way to generate currency, completing quest for class specific abilities, gaining new ways of travel and traverse across the land, and many more things I can't possibly list here. I'm expecting this particular chunk to seem like the longest portion of the journey because there should be so much to do beyond gaining exp. There should be task to force you to break away from the grind if you have any intention of realistically playing to the endgame. I hope this chunk will take anywhere from 6 months to 1 year or more.
The final levels heading into endgame, I would expect that I have completed most of the neccessary task to set my path toward endgame. As such I expect more of the time is spent leveling and refining my skills. For the end levels I would love to see it take something between 3 months 5 months.
I'm basing my thoughts around someone who plays around 3-4 hours a day with more on weekends, so no real science behind them. This is just personally how I hope the game will play out for a more average person.
There has to be balance, between hard core and casual. I see some people recommending a 6-12 months for people playing 6-8 hours a day. That would mean several years for casuals. I doubt that is practical for about 80% of the population.
The longer you make it take for hardcores, the length of time is exponentially greater for casuals.
I really hope they balance the game around 50% of the player base. Then, if hard cores get max level faster, so be it. It was their choice to speed through the content, which is perfectly fine for them to do.
However, there should be no artificial limits to dampen progression of hard cores. Let people play their way.
The age-old conversation of what rate of exp is right for X game.
Is the game primarily about the journey or the endgame? This is Pantheon which is meant to be a spiritual successor for EQ so it should be about the journey and having great experiences along the way, whether challenging yourself by exploring locations on your own or making it more viable with a group at the appropriate levels. So leveling should be slower compared to other games on the market today with enough content preset to entertain players throughout the entire leveling process. Yet there has to be a balance between the length of time it takes to level up and it not becoming a boring grind, it will also depend on how quickly new content will be released to help retain players and bring in new ones.
If there are enough quests and/or repeatable content there should be a way for players to level up by either killing mobs or, perhaps at a slower rate, by questing. Why? Because people like choice and there are some folks who find that killing mobs all the time to advance can get boring. Sometime people might just want to log on and do a quest or two. There are many reasons why someone might want to do one piece of content over the other to gain exp. Don't force a player down one path, encourage or entice, but forcing them is a quick way for someone to lose interest in the game, and in some cases, they can carry a feeling of disappointment for years that spread to other potential players. (I have seen this happen in multiple cases with games losing dozens of customers at the recommendation of guildmates/friends)
In that same vein don't place time-gated limits on exp gain... it limits player progression and you don't want someone who is really enthusiastic about Pantheon, potentially a super fan of the game, to be "forced" to go play something else because they feel that their progress for the day/week is done and/or limited. It is a bad idea. Certain players may like it but you will turn away a lot more people than you gain and you want a continuous living vibrant world that requires a healthy player population made up of many different player types. If you want to limit certain raid events/zones or acquisition of the more powerful gear that players don't constantly get then that is an option if done correctly. But don't do it with a currency/resource like exp that you are meant to acquire at a regular rate, if a player puts the time in playing a game they should be rewarded.
Hell Level... don't do it. Let them die and stay where they belong... in hell. You may remember them fondly and wish for that old feeling of the original EQ, keep those fond memories and let the accidental game mechanic go. Hell levels punish the players and accomplish very little else. They are a grind and simply test the stubborn endurance of someone to stick with the game, don't play with this in today's mindset many folks will just leave. Even back then I watched different players quit EQ specifically because they died once too often in a "Hell Level" and lost so much exp that they logged off, uninstalling the game immediately, and never returned.
If you are worried about certain people "breaking" or overpowering the system to level quickly, that is going to happen. The best developers can do is take it into account and pivot during alpha/beta to make the necessary corrections in exp gain/content structure. Modern players have grown out of EQ and WoW, in many cases they have become very efficient at digesting content quickly and a subset will focus on the most efficient way to overcome a system, get to the endgame, and "win". This is just the mindset of how they play games to get the most enjoyment, nothing wrong with it, but they will race to the end, and in a game like Pantheon miss out on large parts of the journey. In most cases, they will then move on to the next fotm until new content drops.
To be honest, to give definitive feedback on what rate of exp is best in Pantheon we will need to wait for Alpha/Beta and see how it feels once players can get good hands-on experience with the game.
I was a filthy casual that took the game seriously when I played and I liked the pace of taking maybe a 13-16 months to reach 20-25? it took me that long to decide on joining a guild let along meet a consiustent group of friends that were on at the same time and that I got along with. All these guilds randomely asking individuals to join when I had a group, not even bothering to get to know the group, we worked well together, tight. and then a guild at the same point in progression so we could earnestly staret thinking of bigger things. and doing them maybe 8-9 months later after joining the guild- keeping an eye out for longevity and people who stick around and dont go away for a long time or just leave to go somewhere else.
A better idea, imo, would be give casters three or four spells to do at L1, with a variety of weapons to chose from. Make a choice right out of the box. Makes the game interesting right away. A warrior should choose between a two handed sword v two handed battle axe, or a rapier and shield. Different skills needed for each. A shaman should be able to chose a mace and shield or a quarter staff, or a spear. I want choices right away in game. I mean to start. From the first minute. I don't want every Shaman to look the same right away. Some should start with boots, some with gloves, some a helmet, same total AC. Thus you can have three or four shaman group up and each needing different things. I want a slow experience gain but with no death penalty until say level six. I want dungeons at L10. I want combat to be slow. Mobs should have a lot of HP and be hard to kill right off, but then give more exp. Id say make L50 take maybe 1,000 hours. 50 weeks of 21 hours per week. Something like that. The journey is the game.
To me, the journey is what counts, and I really enjoyed the slower pace of XP in EQ, it made the levels you gained feel like an achievement, something to actually celebrate along the way, rather than just celebrating reaching the peak.
However, one thing I've come to realise about the grind was the fact that it hindered my ability to realistically experience more than just a couple of classes comprehensively. It just took so long that I couldn't even entertain the idea of leveling multiple characters (more than two), because I simply didn't have the time to invest in them to experience them fully (hitting max level and obtaining gear). Back then, I had no family, I was working full time, but I had more free time than I do now, so, for me, I still want the grind to be slow, but not quite as extreme as it was in classic EQ. I want to be able to experience more than just one, or two, classes, and that would realistically require the grind to be refined slightly from what it used to be.
Beefcake said:There has to be balance, between hard core and casual. I see some people recommending a 6-12 months for people playing 6-8 hours a day. That would mean several years for casuals. I doubt that is practical for about 80% of the population.
The longer you make it take for hardcores, the length of time is exponentially greater for casuals.
I really hope they balance the game around 50% of the player base. Then, if hard cores get max level faster, so be it. It was their choice to speed through the content, which is perfectly fine for them to do.
However, there should be no artificial limits to dampen progression of hard cores. Let people play their way.
Great point, but I don't think casual players mind. The issue really centers on how long you want people to play the game. I think with a MMO, the target length has to be multiple years, with an ideal of 4-5 years. I don't think anyone should worry about how LONG it takes to reach max level and enjoy the entire game, but I do think it's a massive concern about how SHORT it can take. Again, I'm looking at it solely from the view of what has happened with many of the recent MMOs over the last 10 years. People power game, skipping most of the content, smash through the limited end game content, and then make videos on YouTube about how crappy the game is and that there is nothing to do at max level. People are heavily influenced by these individuals, especially the 25 and under crowd. My concern is history repeating itself once again and having a new MMO be smashed and destroyed by people sharing accounts and maximizing their characters within a month, if not a week. Then those people go nuts on the internet and many new people just hearing about the game or thinking of trying it hear it sucks, has little content, can be "beaten" in a week or two, and they choose not to play.
Theoretical question for you or anyone else: "If having no artificial limits results in hardcore players blowing through content, smashing a minimal end game, and then bad-mouthing the game to the extent that they drive away the potential playerbase needed for the game to even survive, would you change your mind at that point (even though it would be too late) and wish they had put some kind of artificial limitation in to prevent that?" I mean the goal has to be the survival of the game right?
I guess I'm looking at this question through a different type of lens. I don't really care what I personally feel about leveling speeds because if the game doesn't succeed, it doesn't matter. So, what speed helps the game succeed? I don't know. But I do know for 100% certainty that not having artifical limits of some type leads to a dead game. They don't have the resources or the manpower to have an indepth Velious caliber tiered raid system at launch. And if you don't have that, the game is going to get murdered all across the internet by angry powergamers and many people won't even give it a shot due to that negative word of mouth. I actually would like to see this game succeed and last many years. VR has to find a way to slow those guys down and give themselves time to gather funds from launch and repurpose those into end game creation, likely ~5 raid zones. I'd love to hear other ways of solving this issue.
Xevrin said:In that same vein don't place time-gated limits on exp gain... it limits player progression and you don't want someone who is really enthusiastic about Pantheon, potentially a super fan of the game, to be "forced" to go play something else because they feel that their progress for the day/week is done and/or limited. It is a bad idea. Certain players may like it but you will turn away a lot more people than you gain and you want a continuous living vibrant world that requires a healthy player population made up of many different player types. If you want to limit certain raid events/zones or acquisition of the more powerful gear that players don't constantly get then that is an option if done correctly. But don't do it with a currency/resource like exp that you are meant to acquire at a regular rate, if a player puts the time in playing a game they should be rewarded.
If you are worried about certain people "breaking" or overpowering the system to level quickly, that is going to happen. The best developers can do is take it into account and pivot during alpha/beta to make the necessary corrections in exp gain/content structure. Modern players have grown out of EQ and WoW, in many cases they have become very efficient at digesting content quickly and a subset will focus on the most efficient way to overcome a system, get to the endgame, and "win". This is just the mindset of how they play games to get the most enjoyment, nothing wrong with it, but they will race to the end, and in a game like Pantheon miss out on large parts of the journey. In most cases, they will then move on to the next fotm until new content drops.
Snipped the entire post for length, but I thought it was a great post and agree with the vast majority of it. The two paragraphs above are where I diverge a little bit though. For the first, I disagree that limiting xp gain limits player progression. Not in this game. You have all the horizontal progression they've talked about and you have Mastory Points as well where the xp could filter into. The only thing that is curtailed is vertical leveling speed, but overall character progression is never paused. They still get the reward over other players that don't play as much. They just don't reach max level in a week. As for the second part, if you time lock level rate, you absolutely CAN stop the breaking and overpowering the system to level quickly, it simply won't happen because that's the entire point of doing so. So, that would be the best the developers can do, not pivoting to react to powergamers during beta or launch, but designing the game to avoid the problems all the recent MMOs have faced due to this. Can't race to the end if it's not a possibility for 6 months. They can be on the cutting edge of horizontal progression, glyphs, mastery points, all that other jazz, and at 6 months jump straight into raiding while casuals and normals are still leveling up, but for those 6 months prior, nobody is able to overcome the system and get to the end game. The idea might rub some people the wrong way, I don't think it impacts casuals or normals AT ALL, but it does solve the problem of hardcores racing through the game and badmouthing the lack of end game content before many people even try the game.
Mathir said:Beefcake said:There has to be balance, between hard core and casual. I see some people recommending a 6-12 months for people playing 6-8 hours a day. That would mean several years for casuals. I doubt that is practical for about 80% of the population.
The longer you make it take for hardcores, the length of time is exponentially greater for casuals.
I really hope they balance the game around 50% of the player base. Then, if hard cores get max level faster, so be it. It was their choice to speed through the content, which is perfectly fine for them to do.
However, there should be no artificial limits to dampen progression of hard cores. Let people play their way.
Great point, but I don't think casual players mind. The issue really centers on how long you want people to play the game. I think with a MMO, the target length has to be multiple years, with an ideal of 4-5 years. I don't think anyone should worry about how LONG it takes to reach max level and enjoy the entire game, but I do think it's a massive concern about how SHORT it can take. Again, I'm looking at it solely from the view of what has happened with many of the recent MMOs over the last 10 years. People power game, skipping most of the content, smash through the limited end game content, and then make videos on YouTube about how crappy the game is and that there is nothing to do at max level. People are heavily influenced by these individuals, especially the 25 and under crowd. My concern is history repeating itself once again and having a new MMO be smashed and destroyed by people sharing accounts and maximizing their characters within a month, if not a week. Then those people go nuts on the internet and many new people just hearing about the game or thinking of trying it hear it sucks, has little content, can be "beaten" in a week or two, and they choose not to play.
Theoretical question for you or anyone else: "If having no artificial limits results in hardcore players blowing through content, smashing a minimal end game, and then bad-mouthing the game to the extent that they drive away the potential playerbase needed for the game to even survive, would you change your mind at that point (even though it would be too late) and wish they had put some kind of artificial limitation in to prevent that?" I mean the goal has to be the survival of the game right?
I guess I'm looking at this question through a different type of lens. I don't really care what I personally feel about leveling speeds because if the game doesn't succeed, it doesn't matter. So, what speed helps the game succeed? I don't know. But I do know for 100% certainty that not having artifical limits of some type leads to a dead game. They don't have the resources or the manpower to have an indepth Velious caliber tiered raid system at launch. And if you don't have that, the game is going to get murdered all across the internet by angry powergamers and many people won't even give it a shot due to that negative word of mouth. I actually would like to see this game succeed and last many years. VR has to find a way to slow those guys down and give themselves time to gather funds from launch and repurpose those into end game creation, likely ~5 raid zones. I'd love to hear other ways of solving this issue.
If you are worried about some **** streamers, you give them too much power. So much paranoia about what a few ***hat streamers say. The same people that are concerned about this must be the same who fall for celebrity endorsements/opinions.
Maybe a better solution is for the world to stop caring what others say and think for yourselves.
To your other point about limitations, it's ridiculous to punish people for enjoying your product. Should McDonalds limit people to one burger per day? If I eat too much and get sick, that's on me.
As to them releasing the game without content ready that they know people will want, that's on them and it deserves to fail for lack of planning. Limiting people's enjoyment of the game because you released too early, without sufficient content, is not a reasonable approach.
NOTE: To be clear, I don't think VR will release without appropriate content. I was merely addressing your argument.
The levelling pace depends on the amount of content for each level ranges there is going to be.
If levelling is fast : FEW low-mid level zones because they will be irrevelant pretty fast, the game will need LOTS of high-level zones/content.
If levelling is slow : then it's not required to have RAPIDLY TONS of high-level content.
Slow levelling is generally the better option, because it will give developpers more time to make more new content/expansions before players clear/overfarm current content.
The race between players clearing content vs developpers providing new content is a very important factor for the success of a mmorpg. Let us not forget that. Slow levelling IS benefical to everyone.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Q. What is your vision for typical time played to reach max level?
Chris (Joppa): At a highly aggressive/competitive pace, I’d like to see it take around 2.5 months, ~10 weeks. At a normal pace, around 4 months, ~16-18 weeksI will leave it to you to decide which you think is more likely to be VR's estimates of 'average' play time, but it's like going to take anywhere from 2 - 7 hours per level (average) depending on where VR get's their numbers.
I suppose I began to see it in the devs' July update/stream where they discussed the hot topic of corpse runs. We learned that upon death there will be respawning with full gear and item durability, yet right after that Joppa literally says "this is not that game (in reference to Classic Everquest)." The funny thing is he said that about Everquest and knocked it, but he did not say that about WoW. And yet, it is actually WoW that has respawning with gear and item durability. He wouldn't say 'Pantheon is not WoW' though because like WoW Pantheon will have respawning with gear and item durability. He said it about Classic Everquest for whatever reason and I did not like that bias. Anyway, I am starting to not care as much like others. Brad envisioned renewing the oldschool tenets into a new and modern mmorpg. I really don't see that happening. Like others, I will likely go to Project1999. Not ideal, but perhaps for the best.
I was worried when he talked about blizzard and wow as well, the game isn't challenging whatsoever not in raid not in mythic + stuff and it's not even close to being balanced either :l blizz is terrible at making game nowadays)
I understand the feeling with the corpse run, I too would like it there ( again playing on p99 green, corpse run aren't challenging whatsoever, I'm a necromancer, I do have invis, and even if I was a warrior, there is people everywhere that would help)
About the exp: I'd like to have it longer than EQ personaly, information is too wildly spread nowadays, I play on p1999 green, it took 10 days for the people that aggresively leveled, and the first 50 was a cleric, with the information out there and the knowledge we have now, two to three weeks if you go at it seriously ( and I don't mean if you play all day, I mean if you make the most of your time while online!)
also You lost 10% of the previous level in exp when you died, hell level weren't the worst, next one is if you died that is ( about 20% gone =l )
took me about 4 to 5 hours for level 49 to 50 and 40 and 45 hell level, it wasn't very very long with all the knowledge with have now!
We won't have that knowledge right away ( unless for people that pledge for earlier access), I doubt it would take long to spread tho, and there is probably going to be some way people will find to get exp faster
Edit : let's not forget the huge amount of time between spawn in EQ, ( I actually find it less grindy than most mmo because of this) You could be in some area with quite a lot of downtime and be able to do dishes/clean the room or whatever else you have to do at the same time, suddenly those X hours at a camp aren't that long at all since you spent the downtime doing other stuff!)
We could always have alternate ruleset server for people that want it longer
I do hope we get some good pace until we can see what tools our class have and how they work, see if we like it or not, then having it slower ( maybe like the first zone could have a good pace and branch out to multiple area, think halnir/blackrose and whatever zone connected to them) that way people move pretty fast in the first zone and it doesn't get bloated much and then the world opens up much more, I'm pretty confident there will be a lot of space for everyone
We are still a long way away, there is plenty of time for feedback and changes!
Beefcake said:If you are worried about some **** streamers, you give them too much power. So much paranoia about what a few ***hat streamers say. The same people that are concerned about this must be the same who fall for celebrity endorsements/opinions.
Maybe a better solution is for the world to stop caring what others say and think for yourselves.
To your other point about limitations, it's ridiculous to punish people for enjoying your product. Should McDonalds limit people to one burger per day? If I eat too much and get sick, that's on me.
As to them releasing the game without content ready that they know people will want, that's on them and it deserves to fail for lack of planning. Limiting people's enjoyment of the game because you released too early, without sufficient content, is not a reasonable approach.
NOTE: To be clear, I don't think VR will release without appropriate content. I was merely addressing your argument.
Maybe it's just the attorney in me, but it doesn't matter how you feel or what you prefer. Your ideal of a perfect world or how people react to a game doesn't matter. The only thing that matters are facts and results. You may think streamers and influencers are stupid and a joke. I actually agree. But, guess what? What we think doesn't matter. Those influencers can make or break games. That's the reality. That's the truth. Advertising used to have different mediums and different emphasis points, in this modern age, unfortunately, this is a key area to be concerned about if your product is a computer game, especially an MMO.
You're an idealist, that's fine. Emotions can be good. But it doesn't solve problems. Most people never will think for themselves. And unfortunately, Pantheon will need all types of customers for this game to survive. So, again, the issue is how can this game survive, what leveling speed is best, and how to slow down power gamers.
As for launching with end game content, no MMO to date has pulled that off successfully. They've all ranged from non-existant to a work in progress. The difference is that the slack EQ1 and WoW were given doesn't exist any longer. Look at a quality game like SWToR that had a broken end game at launch but a wealth of content within the leveling track. Word of mouth about the end game destroyed that game's potential. The problem there was leveling was too fast, the devs misjudged the time they would have to get the raids tuned. They eventually fixed it, talking within a few months, but the damage was done, people had already left and told their friends not to bother trying it out. The game had to go Free to Play. That's what we want to avoid here. I'm just saying it's absolutely 100% impossible for VR to have enough content for end game at launch, they have to find a way to delay leveling speed. How do I know? Because no MMO has been able to do that, and this is a very small team on a budget. And what constitutes an acceptable end game has only increased in demand over the last few years. The reality is that these guys need a ton of money and a ton of time. I think the odds suggest they'll unfortunately have neither prior to launch. And if they don't slow down leveling, they won't have the time after launch either, even if the money is solid.
Mathir said:
"Honestly, my idea might be the best idea ever. Like all time great. It's tough not to pinch my nipples in the mirror at this point."
Sorry I literally Laughed out loud reading this. Love it :)
Mathir said: ... if you time lock level rate, you absolutely CAN stop the breaking and overpowering the system to level quickly, it simply won't happen because that's the entire point of doing so. ...Can you describe your hypothetical in-game implementation for this solution?
vjek said:Mathir said: ... if you time lock level rate, you absolutely CAN stop the breaking and overpowering the system to level quickly, it simply won't happen because that's the entire point of doing so. ...Can you describe your hypothetical in-game implementation for this solution?
Sure.
1. Figure out the pace that VR believes an average (whatever that may mean) gamer would likely play an MMO on a daily, weekly, or even monthly basis (however they want to do it). Should be studies on this.
2. Extrapolate that number as a baseline for how long it would take an "average" MMO gamer to reach level 50 in Pantheon in terms of months. Lots to take into account, such as breaks in xp gain to craft or explore, funneling xp to Mastery, or any number of non-xp gain in-game activities.
3. Find the number of hours that an average gamer needs to hit max level and divide it by 8 or 10. (This is months. I think it's fair for an average gamer to hit max level in 8-10 months, and I don't expect they'd care one bit if it even took longer). This new number would be how much vertical xp gain an average gamer on a singular character might gain in a month. This is just for baseline.
4. The next step would be to make it so that's it's highly unlikely an average gamer would ever experience an xp cap at all. So, instead of 8-10, divide the original hour number by 6. This would give more of a power gamer rate of xp gain per month. (I'm using 6 months as the arbitrary length of time I'd like to see before people hit max level and start tearing into end game. That number could be less or more).
5. Whatever that final number is from #4 above, that's the amount of xp a singular character can earn in vertical progression per month (could be broken down further into weeks or days instead). Hardcode in a program that prevents leveling past certain thresholds by certain timeframes. Similar in concept to other games when you hit max level and your xp bar just stays full and doesn't level up.
6. At six months (in my example), the xp cap goes away. VR has obtained finances from launching the game, and within the six months they time locked people from hitting max level, hopefully they have a robust and deep end game experience created by reinvesting those launch funds. It's almost like a sneaky early access, rolling development concept, without actually calling it as such.
Again, the goal here is to simply avoid the scenario that hardcore players race to end game in days, weeks, or even a month. Burn through whatever content is at end game and then bad mouth the game hurting sales. No MMO has ever launched with a deep end game system due to time and money, and I don't see how VR can expect to do so. A deep end game system to me would be EQ1 Velious AND Luclin degrees of end game raid content, or even just Planes of Power with all those end game zones. In terms of WoW, it would be MC, BWL, AQ, AND Naxx. Not one or two raid zones. But 3-5 massive end game raid concepts that all work together in a Velious type faction system, where to do one, you go to war with the others, and each has their own unique perks and items.
All VR has stated they plan to launch with at this point is the Sleepless encounter, Amberfaet, and one other raid dungeon. That's not enough, it's not even close to enough. If they launch with that limited of end game raiding, especially in open world, this game will go the route of all the other recent MMOs that had lackluster end game content. The only way I see for them to have both the finances AND time to create a robust end game experience is to launch but stall the pace at which people get to end game. Could they get a hundred million investment from a publisher or investor instead? Yeah, that could work and make my point moot, but how likely is that? And on top of everything, there's no guarantee they implement a fun and challenging end game regardless of money and time. At least forcing 6 months before anyone finds that out helps with funding the game.
Now, who gets annoyed by putting an xp cap in place? Power gamers who focus on level cap. Not all power gamers. Some are completionists and will have no trouble with a level cap concept because they'll do all the horizontal progression and Mastery progression. They'll farm up all their glyphs, do any epic style quests, and be ready at 6 months to hit the end game hard. Normal players won't even be at cap yet. The playerbase should be nicely spread out and even moreso at that point, especially if the 6 month period allowed VR to implement 3-5 raiding zones. Players that enjoy alts won't mind level caps. It only impacts those racing to max level, and I'd argue those folks rarely stay long in MMOs anyway due to burnout. I'd imagine it's around 1-2 months on average before saying the game sucks, not enough content, telling everyone else not to play it, and quitting. There's enough data around to back that up. Pantheon needs positive word of mouth to be successful. If it's all about the journey, and if all the development time goes into that, you can't have people that skip the content crap on the game for being awful. Gotta slow down the power gamers until VR has the time and money to make an all time great end game experience. Ideally they launch with it, realistically that's unlikely to happen because it's never happened, even with studios with massive teams and massive money. Doing the typical expansion route with end game content 6 months in hasn't worked well either, the bad word of mouth starts once they hit max level shortly after launch.
I feel like a lot of my vivid EQ memories can be related to slow leveling (mixed with some fear). Things like the griffon that would wipe groups fighting Orc camps in the Commonlands, the Sand Giant that would wipe groups fighting Dervs in Ro, Lockjaw that would wipe groups killing crocs in Oasis, or the high level undead that would come out at night in Kithikor. Yes, a large part was due to them being higher level mobs in lower level zones, but it was also due to the amount of time we spent in those zones because of slow leveling. In a time were the only maps were found on websites, I learned every inch of so many zones because we lived in them for great lengths of time. Modern MMOs have you leveling so fast that your moving onto the next zone before you get a chance to really learn your current zone. So many years later, you have few if any vivid memories.
The slow leveling also seemed to make people act better than they normally would. If you developed a bad reputation, then people wouldn’t want to group with you and the game wasn’t designed for easily playing solo. As such if your reputation got bad enough then you could reroll your toon, but since leveling took so long, it was an undesirable option. I feel this made people more conscience of their own behavior.
On the other hand, Vanguard had a faster leveling speed and I still enjoyed that game for several years. But even though I remember the people and the game mechanics, I can’t tell you many details of the zones or the mobs. Only APW because it was the only real raiding zone for a long time, so I spent a lot of time in that zone which only makes my point I suppose.
I don’t expect leveling in Pantheon to be as slow as it was in EQ, but I hope it’s at least slower than Vanguard was. The slower the better imo. I’m sure I’ll enjoy the game either way, but if they want us to be telling detailed stories ten years from now, then they’ll need to make the leveling slow and impactful.
Mathir said:... 5. ... Hardcode in a program that prevents leveling past certain thresholds by certain timeframes.
Mathir said:Sure.
1. Figure out the pace that VR believes an average (whatever that may mean) gamer would likely play an MMO on a daily, weekly, or even monthly basis (however they want to do it). Should be studies on this.
2. Extrapolate that number as a baseline for how long it would take an "average" MMO gamer to reach level 50 in Pantheon in terms of months. Lots to take into account, such as breaks in xp gain to craft or explore, funneling xp to Mastery, or any number of non-xp gain in-game activities.
3. Find the number of hours that an average gamer needs to hit max level and divide it by 8 or 10. (This is months. I think it's fair for an average gamer to hit max level in 8-10 months, and I don't expect they'd care one bit if it even took longer). This new number would be how much vertical xp gain an average gamer on a singular character might gain in a month. This is just for baseline.
4. The next step would be to make it so that's it's highly unlikely an average gamer would ever experience an xp cap at all. So, instead of 8-10, divide the original hour number by 6. This would give more of a power gamer rate of xp gain per month. (I'm using 6 months as the arbitrary length of time I'd like to see before people hit max level and start tearing into end game. That number could be less or more).
5. Whatever that final number is from #4 above, that's the amount of xp a singular character can earn in vertical progression per month (could be broken down further into weeks or days instead). Hardcode in a program that prevents leveling past certain thresholds by certain timeframes. Similar in concept to other games when you hit max level and your xp bar just stays full and doesn't level up.
6. At six months (in my example), the xp cap goes away. VR has obtained finances from launching the game, and within the six months they time locked people from hitting max level, hopefully they have a robust and deep end game experience created by reinvesting those launch funds. It's almost like a sneaky early access, rolling development concept, without actually calling it as such.
Again, the goal here is to simply avoid the scenario that hardcore players race to end game in days, weeks, or even a month. Burn through whatever content is at end game and then bad mouth the game hurting sales. No MMO has ever launched with a deep end game system due to time and money, and I don't see how VR can expect to do so. A deep end game system to me would be EQ1 Velious AND Luclin degrees of end game raid content, or even just Planes of Power with all those end game zones. In terms of WoW, it would be MC, BWL, AQ, AND Naxx. Not one or two raid zones. But 3-5 massive end game raid concepts that all work together in a Velious type faction system, where to do one, you go to war with the others, and each has their own unique perks and items.
All VR has stated they plan to launch with at this point is the Sleepless encounter, Amberfaet, and one other raid dungeon. That's not enough, it's not even close to enough. If they launch with that limited of end game raiding, especially in open world, this game will go the route of all the other recent MMOs that had lackluster end game content. The only way I see for them to have both the finances AND time to create a robust end game experience is to launch but stall the pace at which people get to end game. Could they get a hundred million investment from a publisher or investor instead? Yeah, that could work and make my point moot, but how likely is that? And on top of everything, there's no guarantee they implement a fun and challenging end game regardless of money and time. At least forcing 6 months before anyone finds that out helps with funding the game.
Now, who gets annoyed by putting an xp cap in place? Power gamers who focus on level cap. Not all power gamers. Some are completionists and will have no trouble with a level cap concept because they'll do all the horizontal progression and Mastery progression. They'll farm up all their glyphs, do any epic style quests, and be ready at 6 months to hit the end game hard. Normal players won't even be at cap yet. The playerbase should be nicely spread out and even moreso at that point, especially if the 6 month period allowed VR to implement 3-5 raiding zones. Players that enjoy alts won't mind level caps. It only impacts those racing to max level, and I'd argue those folks rarely stay long in MMOs anyway due to burnout. I'd imagine it's around 1-2 months on average before saying the game sucks, not enough content, telling everyone else not to play it, and quitting. There's enough data around to back that up. Pantheon needs positive word of mouth to be successful. If it's all about the journey, and if all the development time goes into that, you can't have people that skip the content crap on the game for being awful. Gotta slow down the power gamers until VR has the time and money to make an all time great end game experience. Ideally they launch with it, realistically that's unlikely to happen because it's never happened, even with studios with massive teams and massive money. Doing the typical expansion route with end game content 6 months in hasn't worked well either, the bad word of mouth starts once they hit max level shortly after launch.
The hardcore, and "no lifers" are going to do that anyways, no matter what you put in front of them. They are going to skip content no matter how much or how little there is in between them and the end. Besides, they are paying customers too, but that's a whole other topic. In any event, the damage that they would do by just getting on YouTube or whatever, and claiming that the game sucks, is far less than what they would say if your idea is in the game. Sure, they can get on YouTube and say the game is garbage, but we are assuming that these are people that are well known on YouTube as hardcore gamers and power-levelers. So for a simple 'it sucks' no one is really going to mind that. Though, the second they start talking about having EXP locked being timed releases and progress being artificially held back, people are going to turn away far quicker than just simply having them say it sucks. Besides, having your idea implemented is an admission that that the game would have been released in an incomplete state and that they didn't have the funding to completion like VR has told everyone they had; which will be far worse than just having the YouTubers say it sucks. People are going to be even more pissed that they released an unfinished game, have the nerve to charge full price for it, and then charge a sub for it; this is on top of the extremely long development cycle that people are already complaining about. To implement your idea is going to be far more damaging for the game than just simply letting some power gamer skip everything as he wants and then say the game sucks.
Casual people are going to care that things are locked up and away from them, it doesn't matter how many hours they spend on it. The fact that you are locking anything away from them is going to upset them and they are going to be pissed that they are spending a full priced sub on the game when they can't go at their pace and get to the places they want to get to. You can say they don't care as much as you want, it doesn't make it true though. The moment that there is even an hint of something like your idea going on people are going to leave it in droves, you are doing nothing more than hurting the game like that. I am no hard core gamer, nor am I a "no-lifer" or even a power leveler, I maybe get time to play 2 hours a day even on my weekends; and I can tell you right now, if they were to put something like this in the game all in an effort to stop someone else in skipping content that they want to skip, I would be the first to tell my friend that they are charging full price and punishing me for some idiot who wants to pay full price to skip over half the game. punishing the casual player and assuming they won't care if you do, all in an effort to try and stop some power-leveler from getting to end game, is never a good business practice.
While I expect I will level much faster in Pantheon then I did in EQ based on my own personal ability advancements I really doubt I would ever hit the barrier that Mathir is proposing. If it was implemented, I would not have it be a daily limit on exp gain but spread it out. Make the limit every 10 levels or something. Let people play hard core for burst of time without running into the limit as long as they also have periods of time they do not play.
I have never played on one but I think this proposal has real life examples. EQ has this on time stop servers, right? (no idea what they call the servers) They start with the original EQ and then open up expansions one at a time? I get the idea that a lot of people like this artificial limitation. I might not be implemented for the same reason but the outcome is very similar.
If a limit like this was implemented, I would take into account the content that will be available at lunch. Many people without a limit will rush to max level and feel they have finished the game but others will consume all the pre max level content and feel the game has been finished. It still amazes me today how little midlevel content WoW has even with all their resources. So, if the limit forced people to grind the same content over and over, I am not sure that would be an improvement for the players or the developers bank account.
An idea on how to make the players enjoy this artificial limitation is to have the actual limitation lifted by players completing a milestone in the game. It could originally be a timed change but instead of just increasing the level cap have a boss spawn that needs to be killed or something. Anyways just and idea to make it feel as if some of it is in the players hands. You could have it be a per player achievement but I like the idea of it being a server wide achievement. You could be the group/guild on your server that opened up the next level cap. It could be broadcasted to the world and memorialized till the end of time.