Tried to find if a similar topic had already been made, but I was unable to.
I played EQ, and I remember the first couple of levels went by pretty quickly, but once you got past 10 or so, they slowed considerably. It wasn't uncommon for it to take several hours or, in the event of multiple non-resurrected deaths, even days for me to go from one level to the next. On top of that, at level 30 there were "hell levels" which occured every 5 levels, where XP slowed to a crawl (I think someone once mentioned to me that they were equivalent to about 4-5 levels in terms of XP needed to pass). As a result, the base game took quite a bit of time to reach maximum level. Additionally, the means in which you could get XP was pretty much limited to killing monsters, as quests were few and far between, and never really offered a huge amount of XP, with a few notable exceptions (Crushbone axes, I'm looking at you).
I recently watched about an hour of gameplay from the early access version of Amazon's MMO "New World". After about an hour, the player had gone from level 1 to level 10. Now, I'm not certain if the rate continues like that or not, but I've played several MMOs where the XP curve pretty much stays relatively flat. Many games, if played aggressively, can be done from 1 to max level in just a few days.
Personally, I enjoy the slower ride, but I was wondering what Pantheon had in mind for their rate of experience. And, will quests or other modes of XP be an appreciable part of that experience?
Thank you,
Hiwin
I don't recall which stream it was, but I do recall Joppa saying that the exp rate wouldn't be quite as bad as when EQ first launched. I also recall him saying something about the game being designed around a 3-4 hour play session. If I had to wager based on the vibe im getting, id say the exp rate will probably be close to classic EQ on a 10-15% exp bonus weekend with no hell levels.
There are a few times the developers talk about Exp and leveling speed. I am too lazy to try and find them but I am sure someone will and link them.
I am also under the impression that leveling will be a little faster than it was in EQ. I seem to recall they are shooting for around 30 days to level to max if you are an average player. I would assume this is not taking in to account progeny which we know nothing about as of yet. (My memory was way off see later posts for details, but looks like more 16-18 weeks of play time)
I was far from an average play when I played EQ but I seem to recall it taking me close to a year to get my two characters to max level. It did not help that max level keep increasing. I am sure if I played EQ today It would not take me near as long but I had hoped Pantheon would take longer then a month. But again, until we know more about progeny it is hard to judge.
Good grief I hope it takes longer than 30 days to get to max, even if we are talking total played, not chronological.
Being able to make 'meaningful progress' in 2-3 hour sessions doesn't mean leveling up at any particular pace.
Personally I want it to feel almost painfully slow hehe. I want to have plenty of time to master my skills and explore everything appropriate to my level range before I progress. Ideally VR will err on the side of caution and even require a bit of 'grinding' familiar content in order to level up for the 'next'.
Everquest classic was a pretty good rate, but even then, some classes could power to max pretty quickly.
I think one thing that is *essential* to an old school feel is a slow, considered pace, with lots of time to chat about tactics and strategies with extra time just to socialise. Plenty of horizontal progression opportunities and the emphasis taken *off* the progression 'race'.
They did sort of address this without speaking to an actual XP Curve.
Fires of Heaven guild did a Pantheon AMA in July 2018 where this question is found:
Q. What is your vision for typical time played to reach max level?
Chris (Joppa): At a highly aggressive/competitive pace, I’d like to see it take around 2.5 months, ~10 weeks. At a normal pace, around 4 months, ~16-18 weeks
So while this doesn't tell us exactly what the leveling Curve will be throughout the levels, we know that they will be balancing things with the above Goals in mind. Back when that was first done, there was lots of chatter about 'How many play hours per day is aggressive/competitive pace' and 'How many play hours per day is 'normal pace'.
Limelight State of Online gaming 2020 report states that the 'Average' play time is 6 hours 20 minutes per week. This same study shows that only 28.5% of people who consider themselves 'Aspiring Professional' gamers play 20+ hours per week.
In 2005 The Daedalus Project compared MMORPG gaming vs TV watching and calculated that an Average MMO gamer plays for 21 hours per week because he/she tends to replace TV watching time with MMORPG time.
Of course we don't know what kind of values VR will be using for their own calculations, so we can only guess, but if we use the Limelight's numbers:
'Normal pace' - 50 Levels in 16 - 18 weeks is 2.77 - 3.12 levels per week, so at 6 hours 20 minutes per week that means ~2h - 2h 15min per level if the XP curve was flat.
'Agressive pace' - 50 Levels in 10 weeks is 5 levels per week, so at a 2h 15m/level this would need 11h 15m a week which is not quite double the average.
If the XP is not flat, we can assume that early levels will take less than 2h 15m while the later levels may take much more than 2h 15m depending on how curvy Pantheon wants to make that line.
If we use the Daedalus Project numbers:
'Normal pace' - 50 Levels in 16 - 18 weeks is 2.77 - 3.12 levels per week, so at 21 hours per week than means ~6h 45m - 7h 30m per level if the XP curve was flat.
'Agressive pace' - 50 Levels in 10 weeks is 5 levels per week, so at ~7 hours per level this would need around 35 hours a week which is pretty much a full time job.
I will leave it to you to decide which you think is more likely to be VR's estimates of 'average' play time, but it's like going to take anywhere from 2 - 7 hours per level (average) depending on where VR get's their numbers.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:They did sort of address this without speaking to an actual XP Curve.
Fires of Heaven guild did a Pantheon AMA in July 2018 where this question is found:
Q. What is your vision for typical time played to reach max level?
Chris (Joppa): At a highly aggressive/competitive pace, I’d like to see it take around 2.5 months, ~10 weeks. At a normal pace, around 4 months, ~16-18 weeks
I remember that comment and it didn't sit well with me then and not now either. A highly competitive person/grinder who wants to server first or quickly max out will likely play 12-16 hours a day and try to min/max XP and stay hyper focused on levling - let's just be honest here. A normal person will play maybe 2-3 hours and will likely not min/max experience and/or stay hyper focused.
I don't see how going from 10-16 hours to 2-3 hours will result in only 1.5 months more of experiencing.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Q. What is your vision for typical time played to reach max level?
Chris (Joppa): At a highly aggressive/competitive pace, I’d like to see it take around 2.5 months, ~10 weeks. At a normal pace, around 4 months, ~16-18 weeksI will leave it to you to decide which you think is more likely to be VR's estimates of 'average' play time, but it's like going to take anywhere from 2 - 7 hours per level (average) depending on where VR get's their numbers.
What a joke. Glad I’m losing interest. If that’s what it is, Looks like the whiners are correct in that this is not “ever” “quest.” Have fun maxing your char in 2-3 months. lol what a joke. That's the same amount of time as just 1 of 4 seasons in a single year. A stroll in the park or two sounds more exciting.
ADD: I played Classic Everquest casually on weekdays and a lot on my weekends. It took me 2 YEARS before I reached the higher levels (50s-60) and I enjoyed EVERY MINUTE of it. There is absolutely no reason why Pantheon shouldn't be designed to last. Why sell it short? I don't only find what Joppa wrote very disturbing, but I am quite disappointed. Has he not been listening to what we have been saying for the past 6 years (heck, the past 20 years for that matter)? This is exactly why I am losing interest. I couldn't convince some of my friends from the good days of mmorpgs to pledge here, and now I am starting to see why. There's only so many times to say it and it does begin to be exhausting. Actually, it's disheartening to read other vets repeat themselves over the past 20 years just to get nowhere. Brad talked about this in his YouTube video back in 2013.
I suppose I began to see it in the devs' July update/stream where they discussed the hot topic of corpse runs. We learned that upon death there will be respawning with full gear and item durability, yet right after that Joppa literally says "this is not that game (in reference to Classic Everquest)." The funny thing is he said that about Everquest and knocked it, but he did not say that about WoW. And yet, it is actually WoW that has respawning with gear and item durability. He wouldn't say 'Pantheon is not WoW' though because like WoW Pantheon will have respawning with gear and item durability. He said it about Classic Everquest for whatever reason and I did not like that bias. Anyway, I am starting to not care as much like others. Brad envisioned renewing the oldschool tenets into a new and modern mmorpg. I really don't see that happening. Like others, I will likely go to Project1999. Not ideal, but perhaps for the best.
I'm sure I remember we had further clarification since that quoted Joppa comment. I think I remember him saying that he was talking about played time, not chronological.
The difference between "aggressive" and "normal" pace is that the aggressive leveler will be doing only that and in the most efficient manner possible. 10 weeks (240 hours) of solid leveling grind. The normal pace will involve all sorts of non-leveling activity like crafting and socialising. Even 'hardcore' raiders don't spend all their time leveling - raiding often leaves you losing experience.
*shrug* Maybe I'm mis-remembering and maybe someone will dig up the relevant info...
@GoofyWarriorGuy thanks for the detailed response.
The main reason I would like leveling to take a long time is I want Pantheon to last for years. Slowing down leveling I feel is one way how EQ was able to hold my attention for so long. But the game has to be more then a slow grind. It has to be fun with lots of content. I feel this is a tall order and I hope Pantheon will succeed.
Progeny is still a big unknown. If it takes 4 months to level to max and then you start back at level one. I think this would work for me. Not only would it continue to give me ways to progress my characters but it would also give me a reason to continue to explore all level ranges. But as we know nothing about how Progeny is going to work hard to know what to expect.
One of the things I keep wondering about is when I played EQ I did it almost completely solo. I really sucked at the game too. I think I imagine EQ as being this really hard game that took forever to do anything and I am just not sure I would still feel that way if I were to play a game like that now. My ability to play games has improved and I am far more likely to make friends to play with. What I considered hard back then is it still hard today and if I get a game as hard as I am imagining will I even like it? So many questions that I feel will only be answered if I try it.
Personally, I hope it takes 1 year to reach lvl 50 if you put in 6-8 hours a day.
I think this is a good target for VR to shoot for because the ultra hard core (what's this job thing people keep talking about?) players who put in 16 hours a day will still need to invest 6+ months to reach 50.
This also falls in line with annual expansions, since at the year mark you may be ready for additional content.
i want hell levels like eq had. it took me 4 weeks playing 7 days a week just to get thru level 40.
level 45 took 5 weeks. and 49 took 6 weeks . And i Loved it.
10 week and 16 weeks is wow levels without rested exp .... hope they change that to take Way longer. that's way to fast for a game that took 10+ Years to make (we have 3 more years to retail release}
disposalist said:I'm sure I remember we had further clarification since that quoted Joppa comment. I think I remember him saying that he was talking about played time, not chronological.
The difference between "aggressive" and "normal" pace is that the aggressive leveler will be doing only that and in the most efficient manner possible. 10 weeks (240 hours) of solid leveling grind. The normal pace will involve all sorts of non-leveling activity like crafting and socialising. Even 'hardcore' raiders don't spend all their time leveling - raiding often leaves you losing experience.
*shrug* Maybe I'm mis-remembering and maybe someone will dig up the relevant info...
Yes he was talking about time /played, which is far different than just 2.5 months; it is 1680 hours.
At 1680 hours it would take a player who is playing 6 hours a day every single day doing nothing but leveling over 9 months to reach max. At a casual 3 hours a night that would take someone (again missing no days) over 1 year and 7 months just to reach max. An absurd amount of time.
The number is more than a little high and I feel it is entirely unreasonable to ask for some never ending grind or to cater to "no lifers" with such an extreme just to hit max. If the game is great then there will be plenty to do. Hell there are 9 races, 4 distinct roles, and 12(14) classes.
This post has been highlighted as part of my CM content, please continue the discussion while abiding by the official forum guidelines :)
"Hot Topic - Rate of Experience - In your opinion, what's the best way to balance the Rate of Experience in Pantheon? Click the link and have your say on our official forums! https://seforums.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/12326/rate-of-experience #MMORPG #CommunityMatters"
Thank you to all who have participated so far in answering my queries.
To Kilsin: Thanks for stopping by! There seems to be a vague but solid concensus as to how long the leveling process will take. Not much has been said about alternative means of experience, and to what extent, if any, it could play in the leveling machine.
Seeing as how you are an all powerful moderator from the land down under, could you perhaps give me more definitive information on both topics?
Thanks,
Hiwin
Leveling should mean something. It should take effort, not just faceroll on the keyboard and oops I'm level 5 after 20 minutes. Just give some different avenues to advance, from questing to crafting to grinding areas if needs be. In regards to how long it should take to level to max, well I'm unsure there. As long as the content is engaging I'll enjoy the journey.
As I said in my tweeter reply,
Imo, the levelling pace must feel different according to phases into the game.
Early levels (1-15) : slow pace, learning phase : you are learning the basic game mechanisms, it is required to take time to learn properly.
Mid levels (16-40) : slightly faster pace, grind phase : now that you have learned the game, you are learning your class mechanisms (mana efficiency of usual and of situational skill cycles, etc)
End levels (41-50) : very slow, achieving phase : reaching max level should be a noticable achievement and as such, should not be easily / quickly obtained.
Time lock xp gain. Make it so it will take 6 months to hit level cap at a hardcore pace. Figure out the ratio so that hardcore players will cap out each day and force them into horizontal progression while casual players will never actually experience the time lock. If you want to make this game about the journey and not just a rush to raid, then you have to make that journey both take a long while AND make it so it can't be bypassed with player rotations and a hardcore schedule. As a hardcore gamer myself, I have no problem with this concept. As long as there are plenty of other horizontal carrots to chase to be "server first", I don't mind diminishing the individual max level race. It would be healthier for the longevity of the game and would also hardcode in more development time to make end game raiding fantastic.
Painfully slow leveling will turn people away. But the people it will turn away are the type of people who would complain about every aspect of the game not being fast enough, so I welcome a painfully slow leveling experience so that these people are weeded out of the game earily on and whats left for imput to future game direction are the type of people I'd want to play with.
Responding to the twitter post here because character limits, TL;DR at bottom:
I think an overall slower pace to leveling would be better not only for the player, but for the game world and social aspect, as well. A slower pace to leveling gives the player that sense of wanderlust. Not necessarily getting 'bored' of what they're currently doing, but just wanting to see what else is out there because the player knows there's more. A slower pace to leveling incentivizes exploration. If a player 'caps out' on an area too quickly they'll spend more of their time fighting mobs than checking their surroundings and they'll leave once the area no longer provides a benefit to them. But if a player is in an area for longer they'll get to really familiarize themselves with the zone. And once they become familiar with the zone, complacent, even, is ideally when they'd start wanting to look for greener pastures. To start exploring again and see what the world has to offer. Camp somewhere else for a while and take what they can from there, or maybe even poke their heads into a high level zone like I used to do and explore just for the sake of exploring. Dip behind cover every couple of seconds and constantly hit tab and con everything that pops up in the target menu. See how far you can get before you inadvertantly start a train trying to hightail it back to the zone line which you think is somewhere over in this direction. Be cautious by hugging the walls or go bold and march straight down the middle. Actually go adventuring and not just chasing levels.
On top of that, another reason I have for preferring slower leveling goes back to the game's slogan of sorts. "Community matters". How are we going to build that reputation among our peers, gain that camaraderie, start that budding guild with the randoms we pulled for an all nighter, if we're constantly moving? If we're going to build a reputation we're going to have to have some sort of presence. And that means being in a particular area for longer periods of time so that people will get to 'know' our name. So that we're exposed to more people over time, and more people will be able to say "Hey, I know them!" Sure, we can always build that reputation after we've capped out at max level, but you aren't building a reputation with players at that point. You're basically just a billboard with 'free buffs/gear' written across it.
I don't know about you guys, but I don't remember the guy that sat in Crushbone all night handing out max level buffs because he had nothing else to do. I appreciate him, but I don't remember him. I remember the cleric who kept the warrior just barely alive with their health bar dancing around at 5% because the pull went bad. I remember the enchanter screaming at the rogue for accidentally backstabbing the mezzed mob when he hit his macro and the tab key at the same time. I remember the guy who was playing warrior for the first time and had no idea how to tank properly or hold aggro. I remember the people who struggled with me. Not the people who watched me struggle and then hit their buff macro to turn me into a god for ten minutes. And if we're leveling too fast we aren't going to get a chance to experience that hardship together. All too quickly we're all just going to be that max level character handing out buffs and equipment. Appreciated, but not remembered.
But, of course, slower experience gain comes with a problem of its own, which is player clog. As high as my hopes are for Pantheon I'm not expecting it to be massive on launch. But even P99, as small as that is comparitively, when they launched the Green server there were 200+ players in Felwithe alone and you had to straight up fight other people for a single mob spawn location. Not the whole camp. But a spawn location. And grouping was heavily discouraged by this because why would you lower how much experience you're gaining by grouping when you can get out of hell so much faster by being selfish? I got accused of botting on several occasions because I came in late when all the spots were taken, grouped with a cleric who got bored and auto-followed me when things weren't advancing, and just alt+tabbed in now and again to check if I needed healing or we were both dead.
The irony to the situation was that Butcherblock Mountains, literally right next door, only had 50 players in it. Some of which were just passing through to get to Unrest. But I guess the 'optimized' leveling path didn't take BB into account because in Felwithe you could go from Lesser Faydark, to Crushbone, to Unrest, to Mistmoore, etc. And while I fully expect the player spread to be far more even in Pantheon because there isn't going to be a 'best leveling path' on day one, I also expect player turnout to be higher than P99's Green server. And with the devs confirming they don't want to do instances this means that the struggle for camps is going to be real.
And, yes, the problem is going to be most prevalent in the early couple of weeks, but those first couple of weeks are also going to be the majority of player's first, and possibly final, impression of the game. Bloated to hell, no way to gain levels because there's nothing to fight, everything is camped down to the very spawn location. You can wait it out until the bloat dies down and people have moved on, but then you've paid for the box price of the game, lost out on that first free month, and you're about to pay for a second month just to see if the bloat had died down enough to be enjoyable. Or, more likely, they'll say they'll check it out again later and then probably never do. Because in this day and age things slip in and out of the limelight so quickly, focus changes so often, that those first few weeks may be Pantheon's only chance to make a lasting mark.
TL;DR: