Valorous1 said:Ill probably have a character on pvp server. Just to switch over when i need to scratch that itch.
I get that "need" but I might suggest making it your "main" I tried that before when I ran into a rough period of being just at the right level to get my arse handed to me a lot. It took me a while to level up to where it would not happen anymore, well least not at the level of I lost every single encounter. Anyway I think its better to stick with it then log in at say a lower level charachter just to go gank someone whose below you to "get your fix"
People tend to think all pvp folks just pvp. We don't we do have to get items and exp just like the pve'rs So we experience that too. Just with the also possibilty of having to deal with PC's as well as NPC's
Truly it brings another "element" to those grinding sessions..
Tanix said:Nathos said:BamBam said: Pvp ofc only noobs play PvE only ;)
Careful BamBam, a lot of those PVE folks get to know the knowledge and lay of the land a lot faster then us PVP folks. merely cause they do not have to worry about some little cut throat stabbing them in the back all the damn time. Calling them noobs may offend them. I prefer to call them carebears. It excites Tanix when I do that. =)
Of course I only say it in a "loving" "caring" manner. The way I know a lot of them embrace and own it.
So what you are saying is that when you say such, you are doing it with a glowing bright heart on your chest.
Now who is the care bear?
*chuckle*
Oh come on Tanix you know I said that for you big guy.... You are my favorite carebear *blush*
Should invisibility work during PvP, just as it does on PvE, or does it have to be nerfed? Should a Mezz spell work in PvP? How about a root and nuke tactic?
Caine said:Should invisibility work during PvP, just as it does on PvE, or does it have to be nerfed? Should a Mezz spell work in PvP? How about a root and nuke tactic?
If spells all have the possibility to be resisted, then yes PC's should not be treated any different than NPC's maybe scale the resist chances a bit differently.. but than again maybe not.
PVE, because my motivation for playing any online game is cooperation, not competition. Losing to some jerk makes me sick and I get no lasting satisfaction out of beating anybody.
Of course, some competition between players in an open world is inevitable and can be enjoyable. But I prefer that it be "friendly", meaning players focus on "getting there first", not on hindering the progress of other players.
I said this in the twitter version of this discussion yesterday - but, the way to get me to do PvP in a fantasy game is to attach it to a really meaningful territorial control system. I need PvP to have a strategic reason for existing in the world, otherwise I just get bored and annoyed with it. Case in point: In EVE while I was playing, my corp owned and inhabited a wormhole system for years. That system was our home. Our little corner of the galaxy. People who came into it that were not us, got killed. Sometimes they were just some random person that happened to pop in that didn't mean any harm, but there was no way for us to know - after all, we were sitting on a literal gold mine. Other times they were concerted efforts by groups to take over our system so they could do what we were doing. We once spent an entire week skirmishing 2 or 3 times a day with an invading force until we managed to finally kill all of their scouts so they couldn't get more ships in.
I am typically not a PvP person at all. But in that environment, where we were fighting for strategic control of a place that we had made our home in, it was actually an enjoyable activity. The type of PvP that appeals to me is warfare, not individual battles.
So, for someone like me, a game has to do this sort of thing to get us to do PvP in it. And honestly, at least for me, the bar is pretty high. I don't do RvR type systems because at the end of the day they're still contrived games, rather than being an integral part of the world experience.
In Pantheon, I don't see myself doing PvP, just because I don't think it's being set up to do the sort of PvP that I might actually enjoy. And that's fine. I know lots of people who enjoy smaller-scale, more tactical PvP. I really want Pantheon to support PvP servers for folks who really enjoy them.
I truly enjoy both. Having to be ever mindful of my surroundings while adventuring heightens my immersion in the game. In contrast, many recent titles are adopting the term "meaningful pvp" but offer anything but. Zoning into a separate map to castle swap for an arbitrary points system isn't meaningful. Fighting for content such as a harvesting node or world boss or even raid access has meaning. The trend of newer "PvP" titles has been to separate the pvp environment, reduce the skill cap by removing standard organizational tools and promote zerg based AoE mechanics. Such titles typically employ a twenty-four-hour map coverage system which tends to be less about skill than how many players a particular faction has on during non-peak hours. And finally, to illustrate just how little meaning pvp provides in such titles, these games allow players to merely swap servers or campaigns when they are losing.
Hoiyay said: PvP absolutely. If pantheon had no PvP servers, I'd ask for my pledge money back and put it into Camelot. It has to require PvE though. Make the best gear come from the PvE raids. So generally the best PvPers, are also great PvE'rs. This forces a balance to actually play the game (pve) to increase your PvP advantage. I raid TO PvP (better). So your raid loot tables need to be on point. Also a few notes. 1) MUST have level caps. Wow didn't do that then you had lvl 60's grief an entire lvl 15-20 zone. Literally to the point the game could literally not even be played. Twinks are fine if within close level range, but a lvl 60 killing a lvl 20 is NOT PvP. It will break the game and force people to quit. 2) as somebody else mentioned, people ONLY fight if they know they will win. They will just run and run and not fight even if it's even match. Recently on a PvP server I fought 3v1...did good, but lost. After the death I ask for a 1v1 or 2v1 and they refused...even though there was literally less than 20 people on the entire server. There needs to be a strong incentive of risk/reward to engage in PvP. Possibly even making PvP XP relatively higher than grinding a dungeon to force people out in the world to PvP. 3) do NOT make PvP gear. It will absolutely KILL pve or any reason to do it at all. I'm okay with a few pieces of PvP gear sprinkled here and there, but not full sets of gear. 4) make fights great again! Too many games now (shooters and RPG's) make the entire fight last for a blink of an eye. There's nothing fun in it. Make fights last longer! Some of my best memories were 10-15 min fights from a group v group. But even 1v1 the fights should be longer than 5 seconds, essentially declaring the Victor by whoever gets the first hit in. 5) on PvP server, don't punish us with death penalties for pvp. Specifically, if were engaged in PvP at all, and then an NPC joins in, STILL don't hit us with death penalties. A lot of games do this, but nobody really cares because there's not much of a penalty. This game will have serious penalties though. 6) make people finish the fight. I absolutely hate it when a rogue jumps me as a tank...realizes they don't have enough to kill me, then just runs away before he dies. Even more frustrating when some classes in some games just don't have much to even stop somebody from running away. Try to think of a way to incentivize ways for people to actually finish a fight. I'm sure there's more, but that's a start
Fine, on a PvP server, I don't care if they have such requests.
This however is why PvP can NOT be put in with PvE. One drives the other. Either the game is PvE focused, or it is PvP focused, you can't have both for the very reasons why you explain. PvE allows for various problems in PvP and PvP constrains PvE.
So, a separate server with separate rule sets (if VR chooses), but the moment I see a PvE feature or mechanic changed to accomodate PvP, the game is unsubbed, and becomes a topic of downtalking by me. LoTRO promised PvP would not have an effect on PvE, they lied, they changed some spells and for that, Turbine has a very special place in a very hot place for me.
There are a lot of games out there who are focusing on PvP, MMOs and otherwise. This can work but I think if you jump into this market you will find there are better games for PvP out there. Right now no MMO is really any good at PvE and a focus on both tends to kill games in one area or the other and both end up getting a short end of the stick.
I hope the devs just stick to PvE content. That's what most of us want in an MMO. I dont even like having a PvP server myself. I hate to see the game die because it's split into PvE, PvP, and RP servers without enough players to split it this way.
ChristoUS82 said:i mean, if you want to play a game that has been designed to be defeated, by all means.. play on a pve server. but if you want a real challenge - come join us on the pvp server where the dynamics change, the encounters are unpredictable, and you have real human interaction!
Real Challenge
If player skill were the determining factor, I'd agree - it'd be a challenge! MMORPGs that aren't first and foremost PvP-centric let even poorly skilled, yet highly leveled and/or geared players determine PvP outcomes. If the players are evenly matched in skill, it doesn't matter if all other aspects aren't equal.
"I swear upon my father's soul, Domingo Montoya, that you will reach the top alive."
Like real life sports, all players need to be matched in gear, general ability and follow the same rules in order to feel like the game is worthwhile. We all want the same thing - keeping it interesting through challenge and dynamic content! That's the PvP I want. The kind of PvP you are asking for is akin to being kidnapped on your way to go swimming, thrown onto a clay court with your grandad's wood-and-catgut raquet from the 50s and staring at Roger Federer across the net with the ball already in the air. If I were Serena Williams, the game would be on! But in this scenario, Roger is very mean and chose you because he knows that you can't play and the court gate is locked.
Honor
Inigo didn't cut the rope and waited until his opponent was ready for this very reason. Having brought that up, an important question arises: Would PvP be desirable to any of the people asking for it here if you could only fight people of the same level and gear score? Would it be fun for you without that disturbingly gross advantage from the start?
"Designed to be defeated"
Those words apply from another perspective in the case of PvE, where PvP exists. PvP targets are routinely chosen for exactly that reason - they won't be able to fight back. They are, as you said, designed to be defeated. Personally, if I'm killed over and over - with no chance to fight back - I'm off to find something a lot more productive to do with my time. I sure wish PvP players would do the same and lobby for a skill-based fantasy MMORPG game somewhat like For Honor. Instead, PvP players are almost always the kid who realizes that the magnifying glass they got with their ant farm can be used for something different entirely. Poor ants. What a challenge for all parties in that scenario, huh?
Do you think Aaron Donald goes to peewee football games or even high school football games to destroy kids before they ever reach pro football? The justice system and game rules prevent that from happening. Even when playing pro - there are rules and refs. Conversely, a QB with no one to pass to, no one to hand off to and lighter padding is going to lose one-on-one contests against a defensive tackle most of the time. Rock, paper, scissors is all fine and dandy until a cowardly rock waits around for a lone pair of scissors to go by before showing its ugly side. Pantheon's PvE game design with distinct classes meant for grouping is why PvP really has no place here - unless they go RvR, where being alone is your crazy choice and leveling is done in non-PvP areas.
ChristoUS82 said:i mean, if you want to play a game that has been designed to be defeated, by all means.. play on a pve server. but if you want a real challenge - come join us on the pvp server where the dynamics change, the encounters are unpredictable, and you have real human interaction!
Lol. Ok. The 'real' challenge is someone might stab you in the back at any moment and the 'real' human interaction is being stabbed in the back and the 'dynamic' encounter is you've no idea when you'll get stabbed and your adventure is ruined? No thanks.
Sorry, but I don't find the prospect of being ganked (about 99.9% of PvP in my experience) as an improvement on any adventure.
"Designed to be defeated"? No. Carefully designed to be a challenge. Unlike gankings, which is a 'challenge' to neither party.
You imply that PvE is somehow lesser, so my reply is somewhat 'defensive' to respond to that, sorry! Then again, if you love PvP, you probably enjoy this kind of conflict?! ;^)
PVP Idea from a Non-PVPer
I’ve actually had this idea for quite a while, but I think with the advent of “dispositions” in mobs and NPCs it seems to fit nicely within the Pantheon mechanics. It would also (somewhat) resolve the issues of solo play content and PVP acting as a supplemental/horizontal method of growth. The idea is pretty basic and consists of a player selecting an option at the log in screen that would generate a random world mob rather than entering the game world as a character.
In order to keep it balanced, the player could not make any pre-determinations about what they’d spawn in as. It would be a random NPC or mob, with only the inherent “gear” and abilities associated with that mob. Normal aggro rulesets towards the player from other creatures would apply, just as if it were a game generated mob. Furthermore, the player would have no control over where in the world they spawned and no ability to communicate with anyone in the game (all coms disabled with the exception of a help ticket in the event of worst-case scenario lol). The NPC/mob would be one that was natural and anticipated in the zone and level appropriate for the players that would congregate there. The only advantage here is the player’s wit and maybe the element of surprise (should they choose to go with that option).
Additionally, the player would not be able to zone or interact with objects. The player can only exit the monster scenario by death or logging out. My thought is that they can stay and hunt their zone and would be sought out and slain relatively quickly, but I could also see there being a time limit to how long they can maintain the hunt as well. The player run mobs/npcs would be marked with a special portrait frame that could be seen when a PC clicked on them, clearly identifying what they are. Maybe they could even be a (randomly generated) named mob, further enhancing their allure. IT’S NEW!! KILL IT!
How well the player performs in this role will affect how frequently they can use this feature. Typically starting at once a day or once a week (not sure what would “feel” right in timing), every successfully deployed attack (even if it doesn’t hit/gets deflected/etc) would reduce the time and every player character killed would reduce the time by a greater amount. If no skills are used at all and the player is killed by a player character, a penalty timer would be added extending the time until the next opportunity to use this feature (maybe even up to ultimately deactivating it for an extended period of time). This would (hopefully) prevent people from logging on and just allowing themselves to be killed.
Final stipulation is that there would be a limit to how many “player” run NPCs/mobs there would be. Too many is a certain recipe for chaos. I would think no more than one per zone, but there’s no telling how popular (or hated… what do I know lol) a feature like this would be. I would also like to think that there’d be a cooldown timer set on a zone once a player run mob has spawned in and then been vanquished. One ravening hound of Wos Che a day is one thing, but one an hour… would feel very unnatural and could have a negative impact on immersion.
Lastly, as the time is reduced due to a player showing great skill in this area they would “level up” and spawn in as more advanced creatures. Also resetting the timer back to the one a day/week. So, let’s say you start off as a great cat in the desert and turned it into an event that resulted in the entire zone having to form a mini-raid to hunt you down and exterminate you, then (after several subsequent events marking your prowess as a blood-thirsty killer), you level up and maybe move on to being a humanoid of some sort, then maybe you’re in a dungeon, then a dungeon boss, in a raid zone, and so on. Heck, maybe one day you could be a giganaa (/shudders with the memories of being squashed to death by a hill giant in EQ while innocently slaying dervishes by the dozen) or a world dragon or something extremely devilish. Likewise, poor performance would lead to demotion (or maybe they could have options open up to choose a lower tier of mob that they’ve previously mastered or enjoyed).
Me… I’d always be an inchworm in the newbie zone, but I lack the killer instinct.
Other than maybe getting to be a very cool critter and having fun surprising players with a human opponent, there is no other reward for the PVPer. As for the players, I would say that the loot table for the mob remains the same, but with a higher percentage chance for better/rarer items within that loot table to drop.
I could see this fostering immersion and community several ways. If there’s a rogue predator on the loose, folks are gonna take up pitchforks and torches to hunt down the vile interloper! It also adds the element of the ultimate take on the disposition system as no computer model can ever be as complex or unpredictable as the human mind.
Zaedria,
I seem to recall EQ doing something similar to this before .. Halloween event maybe? I think upon death of your toon or when you logged in you could choose to spawn as a newb mob in a starter zone so that you could attack people starting characters. Or something like that. Its been a while so shaking off the cobwebs to that memory is well its VERY dusty in there.. Anyway I think thats close to what it was.
Anway I like the idea for "Events" but making that 100% of the time I think would be or get "Old". Basically because you don't get to invest time and energy into that character and improve its gear and etc. etc.
Don't get me wrong I like the thought and think it would be fun for "Events" but to make that the way PVP would be.. "nah not my bag baby"
Zaedria said:PVP Idea from a Non-PVPer
I’ve actually had this idea for quite a while, but I think with the advent of “dispositions” in mobs and NPCs it seems to fit nicely within the Pantheon mechanics. It would also (somewhat) resolve the issues of solo play content and PVP acting as a supplemental/horizontal method of growth. The idea is pretty basic and consists of a player selecting an option at the log in screen that would generate a random world mob rather than entering the game world as a character.
In order to keep it balanced, the player could not make any pre-determinations about what they’d spawn in as. It would be a random NPC or mob, with only the inherent “gear” and abilities associated with that mob. Normal aggro rulesets towards the player from other creatures would apply, just as if it were a game generated mob. Furthermore, the player would have no control over where in the world they spawned and no ability to communicate with anyone in the game (all coms disabled with the exception of a help ticket in the event of worst-case scenario lol). The NPC/mob would be one that was natural and anticipated in the zone and level appropriate for the players that would congregate there. The only advantage here is the player’s wit and maybe the element of surprise (should they choose to go with that option).
Additionally, the player would not be able to zone or interact with objects. The player can only exit the monster scenario by death or logging out. My thought is that they can stay and hunt their zone and would be sought out and slain relatively quickly, but I could also see there being a time limit to how long they can maintain the hunt as well. The player run mobs/npcs would be marked with a special portrait frame that could be seen when a PC clicked on them, clearly identifying what they are. Maybe they could even be a (randomly generated) named mob, further enhancing their allure. IT’S NEW!! KILL IT!
How well the player performs in this role will affect how frequently they can use this feature. Typically starting at once a day or once a week (not sure what would “feel” right in timing), every successfully deployed attack (even if it doesn’t hit/gets deflected/etc) would reduce the time and every player character killed would reduce the time by a greater amount. If no skills are used at all and the player is killed by a player character, a penalty timer would be added extending the time until the next opportunity to use this feature (maybe even up to ultimately deactivating it for an extended period of time). This would (hopefully) prevent people from logging on and just allowing themselves to be killed.
Final stipulation is that there would be a limit to how many “player” run NPCs/mobs there would be. Too many is a certain recipe for chaos. I would think no more than one per zone, but there’s no telling how popular (or hated… what do I know lol) a feature like this would be. I would also like to think that there’d be a cooldown timer set on a zone once a player run mob has spawned in and then been vanquished. One ravening hound of Wos Che a day is one thing, but one an hour… would feel very unnatural and could have a negative impact on immersion.
Lastly, as the time is reduced due to a player showing great skill in this area they would “level up” and spawn in as more advanced creatures. Also resetting the timer back to the one a day/week. So, let’s say you start off as a great cat in the desert and turned it into an event that resulted in the entire zone having to form a mini-raid to hunt you down and exterminate you, then (after several subsequent events marking your prowess as a blood-thirsty killer), you level up and maybe move on to being a humanoid of some sort, then maybe you’re in a dungeon, then a dungeon boss, in a raid zone, and so on. Heck, maybe one day you could be a giganaa (/shudders with the memories of being squashed to death by a hill giant in EQ while innocently slaying dervishes by the dozen) or a world dragon or something extremely devilish. Likewise, poor performance would lead to demotion (or maybe they could have options open up to choose a lower tier of mob that they’ve previously mastered or enjoyed).
Me… I’d always be an inchworm in the newbie zone, but I lack the killer instinct.
Other than maybe getting to be a very cool critter and having fun surprising players with a human opponent, there is no other reward for the PVPer. As for the players, I would say that the loot table for the mob remains the same, but with a higher percentage chance for better/rarer items within that loot table to drop.
I could see this fostering immersion and community several ways. If there’s a rogue predator on the loose, folks are gonna take up pitchforks and torches to hunt down the vile interloper! It also adds the element of the ultimate take on the disposition system as no computer model can ever be as complex or unpredictable as the human mind.
I really hope Pantheon offers some sort of theme PVP, similar to the Sullon Zek server of EQ1. Some sort of Good vs Evil PVP is much more desirable to me than idiotic PVP kill everyone style 1 Guild vs the Server. PVP though has to be done thoughtfully, with respect to the itemization nature of MMORPG.