oneADseven said:For those who keep insisting that XP loss couldn't be enough of a penalty, let's play with the idea that you lose a full level (100% XP ... not just setting you back to 0% of your current level) when you die. How much would that sting?
Losing an entire level of XP would still not make me want to recover my corpse any more then losing 20% would. If gear is not on my corpse (and I do not mean 1 random item from your bags) I would not bother with getting my corpse if I did not have the time or if I put the corpse into the "lost" category. For me to be willing to get my corpse for a XP hit alone the amount would need to be so high as to make most others not even want to play anymore (losing multiple levels). so I do not have to worry about the XP loss being high enough where I feel like I have to recover my corpse. XP loss is not a penalty for me. I enjoy the group aspect of MMO's. When I lose XP to a death I get to keep doing what I like (grouping) and having fun.
To put this into perspective: when I played EQ on a TLP I had a corpse in the spot we where XPing at. Cleric in the party asked if I wanted a rez to get some XP back (had 30-45min left on rez timer). I declined because I would rather pull mobs and kill stuff then wait around for the Rez sickness and to get mana back (on myself and the Cleric). Now if there was a wipe and more people then I needed a rez, I would take one.
People have different thresholds on what "hurts" them in a game. Losing XP or spending in-game currency for repairs after a death is on the trivial for me. Losing all of my items... That would "hurt" and I would do what I could to prevent that from happening (from changing play style to seeking help from others).
Since this thread has turned into a debate about death penalties, I thought I would try to add to it constructively and list out the different options that I can think of for death penalties (with the exception of permadeath). Don't think of these as being mutually exclusive - Pantheon could use one, some, or all of these in combination with each other if that's what it takes to make death feel meaningful and "sting" properly. Anyway, here's the list I came up with. Did I forget any?
- Experience loss or experience debt (potentially some restored by resurrection, may also include de-leveling)
- Temporary stat loss (some sort of major debuff applied for a period of time after death or resurrection, may stack)
- Equipment or coin loss (left on corpse)
- Equipment or coin loss (permanent)
- Equipment damage (must repair)
- Respawn at bind point (potentially very far away from death location)
IF there is gear loss, I won't bother playing. There is absolutly no way that the mechanic would be sustainable long term without destroying it's player basis. People have real lives and commitments and can't spend an hour or more just trying to get their body back. I would never raid if I knew in the back of my mind that eventually it will be for naught. You will eventually die in a place due to lag, pvp, etc, where your body will be unrecoverable. I would also argue that there is little reason to invest in long term progression if the gear was so meaningless that losing it wasn't a big deal.
My personal opinion, I am ok with XP loss into that level, but if you start losing levels and degrade your level, then I see little to no reason to play on a pvp server or engage in end game raiding. That type of mechanic will bring out the absolutly most toxic people in both scenes. I wouldn't doubt for a minute that guilds become extremely hostile and toxic over wipes if you can lose your loot or lose levels from dying.
In all honesty I don't see those making it to live, getting too far into live if it does, or the game will just implode on itself like many other games that refuse to adapt and demand to be a "hardcore game" Cough cough wildstar. < which I loved btw and was a hardcore player.. however facts are facts. If your game is too punishing, no one wants to play it.
IF however, they are reasonable and their penalty is fair (xp loss or money loss etc, to a point) then yes I would most definately participate and attempt to get my body back. I just know myself and the typical gamer (disregarding age or whether they played EQ or not) and i know the rage quit will be hot and fast in those first few weeks if gear loss and level loss is a prime componant of the game. That will snowball into a wildfire of forum rage and spelling future doom for the games casual player base (which you 100% have to have, to have a healthy game) you are fooling yourself if you think "screw those casual plebs" those casual plebs are what keeps the server running.
Yaz87x said:IF there is gear loss, I won't bother playing. There is absolutly no way that the mechanic would be sustainable long term without destroying it's player basis. People have real lives and commitments and can't spend an hour or more just trying to get their body back. I would never raid if I knew in the back of my mind that eventually it will be for naught. You will eventually die in a place due to lag, pvp, etc, where your body will be unrecoverable. I would also argue that there is little reason to invest in long term progression if the gear was so meaningless that losing it wasn't a big deal.
My personal opinion, I am ok with XP loss into that level, but if you start losing levels and degrade your level, then I see little to no reason to play on a pvp server or engage in end game raiding. That type of mechanic will bring out the absolutly most toxic people in both scenes. I wouldn't doubt for a minute that guilds become extremely hostile and toxic over wipes if you can lose your loot or lose levels from dying.
In all honesty I don't see those making it to live, getting too far into live if it does, or the game will just implode on itself like many other games that refuse to adapt and demand to be a "hardcore game" Cough cough wildstar. < which I loved btw and was a hardcore player.. however facts are facts. If your game is too punishing, no one wants to play it.
IF however, they are reasonable and their penalty is fair (xp loss or money loss etc, to a point) then yes I would most definately participate and attempt to get my body back. I just know myself and the typical gamer (disregarding age or whether they played EQ or not) and i know the rage quit will be hot and fast in those first few weeks if gear loss and level loss is a prime componant of the game. That will snowball into a wildfire of forum rage and spelling future doom for the games casual player base (which you 100% have to have, to have a healthy game) you are fooling yourself if you think "screw those casual plebs" those casual plebs are what keeps the server running.
I'm a casual plebe, I have a real life, job wife other hobbies as well. And I could easily find an hour to get my corpse back just as easy as I can find an hour to play a game.
And I totally agree with Chogar. Experience loss without level loss (experience debt) will not be enough to do a corpse run.
Part of me wants a corpse run to regain gear and part of me doesn't its the Jungian thing. Nothing worse than having to log off to go to bed for work in the morning while your corpse and gear are rotting on the deck in some corner of a dungeon. However, there needs to be a penalty and it needs to be harsh for dying. I just don't know what that penalty should be.
Nephele said:- Experience loss or experience debt (potentially some restored by resurrection, may also include de-leveling)
Exp loss alone doesn't seem to be a enough of a risk. EQ2 and other games had this and it really didn't make a difference. De-leveling helps, but again it isn't much of an issue unless you are on a level line, or.. you make exp loss per death so great that it becomes a major risk. Then though, you run into the problem of a negative return on play. That is, dying is a part of play, especially when you are exploring and learning new content. If a player can experience new content and not experience death, then the content isn't challenging the player and you end up with low risk.
Nephele said:- Temporary stat loss (some sort of major debuff applied for a period of time after death or resurrection, may stack)
It requires no active participation by the player. All that will result is players will sit down and wait out the debuff, encouraging the concept of "afk play". Risk must require consequence where the player must actively participate to "pay/resolve/remedy" the failure of play.
Nephele said:- Equipment or coin loss (left on corpse)
Coin loss may or may not be useful, but to be honest it often gets out paced by the player economy too quickly and is difficult to keep up with. I think Equipment left on the corpse is the best fit. It can not be circumvented, the player must actively go back and retrieve their items to be at the level of functionality they were (unless the gear is junk gear they don't care about) and it requires the going back to the area that killed the player which may be dangerous, difficult, etc... All in all, this penalty was a pretty healthy one (though I would combine it with exp loss/deleveling at around 20% or so per death without a rez and a varying loss depending on rez type, level, etc...)
Nephele said:- Equipment or coin loss (permanent)
This type of implementation requires a theme in the design of game mechanics that revolve around gear being more common and disposable. That is, it follows the concept of some perm death MUDs where the player and the items were not the point, lasting in the world was. Items, and levels were easier to come by because of the focus of play of the game. This system, also seen in single player games as "rogue likes", and while I respect its type of approach, it doesn't fit well with long term RPG systems. That is, in EQ obtaining items could take an enormous amount of time due to the rarity system (ie place holder mobs, with each kill has a chance to pop a named mob, the named mob when killed has a chance to drop from a list of items and the mobs and items can be of varying levels of rarity).
So, if a player had to spend weeks of camping to finally gain their coveted item, only to have the item disappear on death the next day, well... what you have is an imbalance of risk/reward. That is, the risk is so high that the reward no longer is worth the effort.
Nephele said:- Equipment damage (must repair)
- Respawn at bind point (potentially very far away from death location)
Like coin loss, this is quickly overcome by various issues with the player economy, dupes, and is a difficult to keep it balance to play. Respawn at bind point is a good one and if you carefully enforce limitations on where a player can bind, this can certainly create a fear of travel, or create a given dynamic in play. For instance, in EQ, casters could bind anywhere (a benefit of being a squishy class) and non-casters could only bind in cities. Whether this was a bug or not, I loved this dynamic as it created class interdepency. Personally, I love when some classes have abilities over another and the player has to decide with a give and take approach what they want in play.
Personally, and yes, I am biased... I loved EQ's system (minus the rotting corpse and you lose everything).
So here is what I think would be ideal.
You die...
You respawn at your bind point (which will depend on if you are a caster or non-caster, with casters being able to bind themselves in "most" places and melee only at specific cities or townships). You are naked because ALL of your gear (no keeping ANYTHING) is now resting on your corpse. You look down at your exp bar/gadget/meter/thingy and it is showing that you have lost 15-25% of your exp (I think a variable would be kind of nice, to keep it interesting where you are "hoping" for the low end loss, but could end up with the higher loss).
At this point, your casters might be bound near that area. So, you wait while they get into position and then drag/summon/etc.. your corpse to get the party back up and running. This is a HUGE variable. In some cases, it may be a painstaking recovery because you are deep in a specific area and need a given class which does not have the bind anywhere abilty and so you must either wait for them to run all the way back (could be a while depending on where you are), which is a great time to showcase abilties of other classes.
For instance, lets say you have a druid/wizard who can port to various locations and can travel faster than most. They run to you, and use their tools to speed you to them. A druid may port, run to you, buff you with run speed, run you to the nearest ring and then port you near the area where you died. A wizard may do something similar, etc... A mage could use a spell Call of Hero to summon a player, but... this should be restricted to the zone, still forcing the players to get within reach.
Now you could be doing that to get a rogue or monk back to recover corpses, but... in some cases, invis might do fine. So... a caster might be able to spawn at their bind point naked, memorize some spells, then invis and run back to the corpse, dragging them to a safe spot and rezing them.
Or... you may have to use the class you got back to the area to do that (a monk, rogue, etc....).
The point is, this is a process where time will depend on the balance of risk vs reward. In low risk areas you can easily recover and be back up and running with little down time, but in other areas, where it may be deep in a dungeon or area that is EXTREMELY dangerous, this process may be long an arduous. Risk vs Reward.
This caused players to consider their objectives in play. Where will we go? What do we want to achieve, how long will it take? Should we plan this? Wait till the weekend?
This is what I would love to see.
I still don't get questions like these. Is this an actual request for community feedback that the devs will listen to?(no)? As if people would let their corpses rot. What does the question actually have to do with the game? Is there any insight being given on how death penalties will work?(no)? What's the point of this? Why don't we get something substantial instead of meaningless clickbait fluff.
Keno Monster said:I still don't get questions like these. Is this an actual request for community feedback that the devs will listen to?(no)? As if people would let their corpses rot. What does the question actually have to do with the game? Is there any insight being given on how death penalties will work?(no)? What's the point of this? Why don't we get something substantial instead of meaningless clickbait fluff.
I am betting the question "would you bother?" is specific to some dungeon mechanics they really like, but creates unique challanges for corpse retreival. It makes me think about collapsing floors, the climbing of object or the class abilities such as the Rogue's Length of Rope".
Can you really create cool dungeon mechanics/atmospheres and not have corpse retrievals? What good would shifting walls be, if it does not matter that the walls have shifted. Or the floor drops out from under you and your in a cave that contains the atmosphere of "Fog of Confusion" and are you are too confused to cast certain spells. What would be the point of the dungeon, if your could "XP loss" your way out of a bad situation?
Zorkon said:Yaz87x said:IF there is gear loss, I won't bother playing. There is absolutly no way that the mechanic would be sustainable long term without destroying it's player basis. People have real lives and commitments and can't spend an hour or more just trying to get their body back. I would never raid if I knew in the back of my mind that eventually it will be for naught. You will eventually die in a place due to lag, pvp, etc, where your body will be unrecoverable. I would also argue that there is little reason to invest in long term progression if the gear was so meaningless that losing it wasn't a big deal.
My personal opinion, I am ok with XP loss into that level, but if you start losing levels and degrade your level, then I see little to no reason to play on a pvp server or engage in end game raiding. That type of mechanic will bring out the absolutly most toxic people in both scenes. I wouldn't doubt for a minute that guilds become extremely hostile and toxic over wipes if you can lose your loot or lose levels from dying.
In all honesty I don't see those making it to live, getting too far into live if it does, or the game will just implode on itself like many other games that refuse to adapt and demand to be a "hardcore game" Cough cough wildstar. < which I loved btw and was a hardcore player.. however facts are facts. If your game is too punishing, no one wants to play it.
IF however, they are reasonable and their penalty is fair (xp loss or money loss etc, to a point) then yes I would most definately participate and attempt to get my body back. I just know myself and the typical gamer (disregarding age or whether they played EQ or not) and i know the rage quit will be hot and fast in those first few weeks if gear loss and level loss is a prime componant of the game. That will snowball into a wildfire of forum rage and spelling future doom for the games casual player base (which you 100% have to have, to have a healthy game) you are fooling yourself if you think "screw those casual plebs" those casual plebs are what keeps the server running.I'm a casual plebe, I have a real life, job wife other hobbies as well. And I could easily find an hour to get my corpse back just as easy as I can find an hour to play a game.
And I totally agree with Chogar. Experience loss without level loss (experience debt) will not be enough to do a corpse run.
Yaz87x said:Zorkon said:Yaz87x said:IF there is gear loss, I won't bother playing. There is absolutly no way that the mechanic would be sustainable long term without destroying it's player basis. People have real lives and commitments and can't spend an hour or more just trying to get their body back. I would never raid if I knew in the back of my mind that eventually it will be for naught. You will eventually die in a place due to lag, pvp, etc, where your body will be unrecoverable. I would also argue that there is little reason to invest in long term progression if the gear was so meaningless that losing it wasn't a big deal.
My personal opinion, I am ok with XP loss into that level, but if you start losing levels and degrade your level, then I see little to no reason to play on a pvp server or engage in end game raiding. That type of mechanic will bring out the absolutly most toxic people in both scenes. I wouldn't doubt for a minute that guilds become extremely hostile and toxic over wipes if you can lose your loot or lose levels from dying.
In all honesty I don't see those making it to live, getting too far into live if it does, or the game will just implode on itself like many other games that refuse to adapt and demand to be a "hardcore game" Cough cough wildstar. < which I loved btw and was a hardcore player.. however facts are facts. If your game is too punishing, no one wants to play it.
IF however, they are reasonable and their penalty is fair (xp loss or money loss etc, to a point) then yes I would most definately participate and attempt to get my body back. I just know myself and the typical gamer (disregarding age or whether they played EQ or not) and i know the rage quit will be hot and fast in those first few weeks if gear loss and level loss is a prime componant of the game. That will snowball into a wildfire of forum rage and spelling future doom for the games casual player base (which you 100% have to have, to have a healthy game) you are fooling yourself if you think "screw those casual plebs" those casual plebs are what keeps the server running.I'm a casual plebe, I have a real life, job wife other hobbies as well. And I could easily find an hour to get my corpse back just as easy as I can find an hour to play a game.
And I totally agree with Chogar. Experience loss without level loss (experience debt) will not be enough to do a corpse run.
Well, that's good for you but you are not the majority :P jsut saying. And as I mentioned, my personal opinion on the matter from watching other games implode from similar ideas. If they have it then they have it, but I won't be surprised when the backlash comes.
EQ held a player base for 5 years up to 800k subs until it began to decline, all while having major exp loss, naked corpse runs, and even a 7 day timer before your corpse rotted and you lost all your gear.
As for majority, what majority do you speak of? Mainstream? If so, lets be fair here, this isn't being made for mainstream so the "majority" in mainstream is the "minority" in this game.
Spluffen said:Yaz87x said:You will eventually die in a place due to lag, pvp, etc, where your body will be unrecoverable.
If it's not just that it's really hard but that ones body is actually unrecoverable then I'm sure a GM ticket would solve that.
Yep. Pretty much.
Funny thing is, all but in some very specific circumstances did I see a body be unrecoverable. As a monk in EQ, I did quite a few corpse recoveries for people in MAJOR raid areas (PoF, Hate, PoA, ToV, PoM, PoG, etc..) I think those really trying to argue against this just don't want the responsibility of such game play as they are used to the rush in, die, recover quickly, rush in, die, recover quickly type of play in modern games.
Corpse runs is the best way, IMHO, to introduce "risk" because it is proportional to the efforts it took to get to the encounter in the first place. I.e., the deeper in the dungeon you get, the greater the risk. However, I have mixed feelings about "naked", because it calls for either special tricks performed by certain classes in the group, or outside help, both of which may or may not be available, i.e., the penalty is not the same for all. Considerations about certain gear being necessary to survive the climate or atmosphere where the corpse resides only makes me worry more about it.
Keeping your gear for the corpse run would give everybody a fair chance to retrieve their stuff with the same group, but keeping it for good, would make many players shrug at the XP loss. But what if you were on a timer of sorts so that your "spirit" would not remain geared up indefinitely? Just an idea, and probably not a new one.
Jabir said:Corpse runs is the best way, IMHO, to introduce "risk" because it is proportional to the efforts it took to get to the encounter in the first place. I.e., the deeper in the dungeon you get, the greater the risk. However, I have mixed feelings about "naked", because it calls for either special tricks performed by certain classes in the group, or outside help, both of which may or may not be available, i.e., the penalty is not the same for all. Considerations about certain gear being necessary to survive the climate or atmosphere where the corpse resides only makes me worry more about it.
Keeping your gear for the corpse run would give everybody a fair chance to retrieve their stuff with the same group, but keeping it for good, would make many players shrug at the XP loss. But what if you were on a timer of sorts so that your "spirit" would not remain geared up indefinitely? Just an idea, and probably not a new one.
Yes, it does call for outside help (unless you pick a class that has special abilities to achieve such, but then that is a trade off is it not?), though that is the point in a group focused game and an integral point in this entire discussion. That is what makes this risky.
See, when you begin to worry about the consequences of a given venture, then proper risk is now being achieved in its design. That is, everytime you venture out in the world, you as a player should be considering risk and the various results of it. If it doesn't cross the mind, if it isn't something a player gives hard concern to, then it isn't risky.
Now.. to be fair your concern about the environmental effects is a fair one, but it really depends on the implementation.
For instance, in EQ release there was Kedge Keep. This entire zone was underwater. So, you were required to have underwater breathing. This could be achieved in a couple of ways, by items that gave the wearer the ability (ring, necklass, etc...) or a spell to which a class could cast on themselves or others.
This created a pro/con dynamic to various classes and a position of reliance between them. For some classes who could cast the spells ( water breathing, movement speed, invis, porting, etc...) this zone wasn't that big of a risk as they could individually recover their corpse if they lost it. For some classes, this was a MAJOR risk as if they lost their items, corpse recovery became near impossible without help.
This is a risk/reward balance and the beauty of class uniqueness. When you pick your class, you accept some things will vary in difficulty compared to others. You also accept that being that this is the case, you will need to work together with others to achieve succes.
The thing about a penalty, a risk, etc... is to avoid the temptation of designing it based on how much you will tolerate it. Rather the goal should be to make sure it logically is balanced to its implementation. As you pointed out, the risk increases in a CR based on how far you have to enter a dungeon. While this may make it more difficult to recover and it may be frustrating to some, it is the logical progression of risk vs reward balance. The same is for a zone of special requirements (needing air to surrive or special equipment/spells to traverse an area). Though the reward must be properly balanced as well. For instance, if it is VERY difficult to get to some specific area and the risk is great in failure (making it a very difficult recovery), then the rewards for such a venture be properly balanced accordingly (though it doesn't have to be a balanced reward for all classes, that is an amazing sword in an area where only some classes are able to use it).
One thing to avoid though is where a failure can not be solved. That is, in your example of needing certain environmental equipment to progress/exist in a zone, there needs to be an alternative for players to recover from such. In EQ, this was done by certain classes having abilities that would provide temporary means to do such (ie underwater breathing spells, levitation spells, ports, invis, resist heat, cold, etc..). By having such, you still allow for recovery from a CR (though by needing help from others). What you want to avoid is a possibilty of critical unrecoverable failure. That is, forcing the need for special gear only, then having a situation where a group wipes, and due to such is unable to enter the zone again to which the same result repeats with each group coming to help recover until all groups are gearless and unable to enter the zone. That would be risk that is beyond reasonable means.
The player should always be able to recover their corpse by a "reasonable" means through a typical play session and in my opinon there should be a requirement of the player to go through this recovery process (ie no means for a player to wait it out and have their corpse sitting at a graveyard). That is, if you die deep in a risky area and rage quit and then come back 30 days later... your corpse will still be sitting at that same location. That is risk, that is consequence and as long as the reward is properly blanced it is exciting play.
I think 7 days is enough time to get a corpse, even with penalty of item loss. I am talking 7 RL days counting from when you log in and stopping when you log out.
My thinking is: it can enable you to die with your corpse deep in who-knows-where with all its precious hard-earned quest armor/weapons/rings. You log out and go on vacation. 2 weeks later you come back and oh yeah my corpse! when you log in, the timer is 6days 23hours 58min remaining, or something untill it poofs.
The control: for guarding againt RMT'ers that will use corpses as storage , if a rez if offered, it must be accepted. If the rez is not accepted a message will come up to the player telling them if they dont accept the rez, all their items will poof. The game is sophisticated enough, and targeted (niche) enough, and with some talk about Esports and reaction times? the excuse "I clicked the wrong button!" is unnaceptible and player takes responsibility.
Yes it may cause rage quits, so be it. It can even have a "are you sure?" check. Further control, the rez box can stay up for 1 hour, if the player camps within that time the rez goes away and corpse poofs. Granted that may be enough time for the RMT'er to create a new account, transfer the items and kill the player again and have another 7 days. But from a business standpoint thats also a new sub. Coincidentlaly the player driven community enforcement may be quite the deterent to RMT'ers since a majority of players may be offering drive-by rezzes on those corpses from their own bonhommie, causing the RMT'er to have to create a sub every time the corpse is rezzed if they want to keep that storage.
This may be draconian but its not our world, its their world with its own rules. Coincidentally, I recall a post on these forums a ways back where a player who liked playing a bard gleefully anticipated being able to drag a players corpse deeper into a dungeon or into lava and leaving and ignoring tells, as they recalled the pleasure of having done that previously, and could not wait to experience that same pleasure again.
The 7 days real time and a "are you sure?" check I think would be reasonable. However I realize my response has drifted away from the point, that if accepted by a player does away with these concerns which is: its dangerous out there, one must live and learn and the death must be enough reinforcement to drive player behavior to avoid it while at the same time allowing the player to accept the consequences of the death as per the rules of the game.
Manouk said:I think 7 days is enough time to get a corpse, even with penalty of item loss. I am talking 7 RL days counting from when you log in and stopping when you log out.
My thinking is: it can enable you to die with your corpse deep in who-knows-where with all its precious hard-earned quest armor/weapons/rings. You log out and go on vacation. 2 weeks later you come back and oh yeah my corpse! when you log in, the timer is 6days 23hours 58min remaining, or something untill it poofs.
The control: for guarding againt RMT'ers that will use corpses as storage , if a rez if offered, it must be accepted. If the rez is not accepted a message will come up to the player telling them if they dont accept the rez, all their items will poof. The game is sophisticated enough, and targeted (niche) enough, and with some talk about Esports and reaction times? the excuse "I clicked the wrong button!" is unnaceptible and player takes responsibility.
Yes it may cause rage quits, so be it. It can even have a "are you sure?" check. Further control, the rez box can stay up for 1 hour, if the player camps within that time the rez goes away and corpse poofs. Granted that may be enough time for the RMT'er to create a new account, transfer the items and kill the player again and have another 7 days. But from a business standpoint thats also a new sub. Coincidentlaly the player driven community enforcement may be quite the deterent to RMT'ers since a majority of players may be offering drive-by rezzes on those corpses from their own bonhommie, causing the RMT'er to have to create a sub every time the corpse is rezzed if they want to keep that storage.
This may be draconian but its not our world, its their world with its own rules. Coincidentally, I recall a post on these forums a ways back where a player who liked playing a bard gleefully anticipated being able to drag a players corpse deeper into a dungeon or into lava and leaving and ignoring tells, as they recalled the pleasure of having done that previously, and could not wait to experience that same pleasure again.
The 7 days real time and a "are you sure?" check I think would be reasonable. However I realize my response has drifted away from the point, that if accepted by a player does away with these concerns which is: its dangerous out there, one must live and learn and the death must be enough reinforcement to drive player behavior to avoid it while at the same time allowing the player to accept the consequences of the death as per the rules of the game.
So your argument is that if a player can not get to their body in 7 days, they should have all of their equipment erased?
I am a big objector to those going on about RL getting in the way of things, but this as a penalty, it is.. not reasonable and it was one of the most hated results for anyone who experienced it in EQ. To have hundreds, if not thousands of hours spent on a character just deleted because a person did not recover their corpse in time (7 days, and how is 7 days considered reasonable?), well... not only do I disagree, but such a game that would PURPOSELY implement that feature (remember EQ doing this was merely a hardware/software limitation of the time and 7 days was a component of that), that is a severe imbalance of risk/reward.
Tanix said:Manouk said:I think 7 days is enough time to get a corpse, even with penalty of item loss. I am talking 7 RL days counting from when you log in and stopping when you log out.
My thinking is: it can enable you to die with your corpse deep in who-knows-where with all its precious hard-earned quest armor/weapons/rings. You log out and go on vacation. 2 weeks later you come back and oh yeah my corpse! when you log in, the timer is 6days 23hours 58min remaining, or something untill it poofs.
The control: for guarding againt RMT'ers that will use corpses as storage , if a rez if offered, it must be accepted. If the rez is not accepted a message will come up to the player telling them if they dont accept the rez, all their items will poof. The game is sophisticated enough, and targeted (niche) enough, and with some talk about Esports and reaction times? the excuse "I clicked the wrong button!" is unnaceptible and player takes responsibility.
Yes it may cause rage quits, so be it. It can even have a "are you sure?" check. Further control, the rez box can stay up for 1 hour, if the player camps within that time the rez goes away and corpse poofs. Granted that may be enough time for the RMT'er to create a new account, transfer the items and kill the player again and have another 7 days. But from a business standpoint thats also a new sub. Coincidentlaly the player driven community enforcement may be quite the deterent to RMT'ers since a majority of players may be offering drive-by rezzes on those corpses from their own bonhommie, causing the RMT'er to have to create a sub every time the corpse is rezzed if they want to keep that storage.
This may be draconian but its not our world, its their world with its own rules. Coincidentally, I recall a post on these forums a ways back where a player who liked playing a bard gleefully anticipated being able to drag a players corpse deeper into a dungeon or into lava and leaving and ignoring tells, as they recalled the pleasure of having done that previously, and could not wait to experience that same pleasure again.
The 7 days real time and a "are you sure?" check I think would be reasonable. However I realize my response has drifted away from the point, that if accepted by a player does away with these concerns which is: its dangerous out there, one must live and learn and the death must be enough reinforcement to drive player behavior to avoid it while at the same time allowing the player to accept the consequences of the death as per the rules of the game.
So your argument is that if a player can not get to their body in 7 days, they should have all of their equipment erased?
I am a big objector to those going on about RL getting in the way of things, but this as a penalty, it is.. not reasonable and it was one of the most hated results for anyone who experienced it in EQ. To have hundreds, if not thousands of hours spent on a character just deleted because a person did not recover their corpse in time (7 days, and how is 7 days considered reasonable?), well... not only do I disagree, but such a game that would PURPOSELY implement that feature (remember EQ doing this was merely a hardware/software limitation of the time and 7 days was a component of that), that is a severe imbalance of risk/reward.
I am in agreement with you Tanix on this subject ... Back in the shall we just say OLD DAYS . on RZ server you did lose all . no person to hail to rtecover things it was gone for good .
I agree thats a horrid way to teach anyone about the world or dangers , they only have so much game play to start all over would be game breaking for many people .
For myself I can deal with it :):):) .
Yaz87x said:Zorkon said:Yaz87x said:IF there is gear loss, I won't bother playing. There is absolutly no way that the mechanic would be sustainable long term without destroying it's player basis. People have real lives and commitments and can't spend an hour or more just trying to get their body back. I would never raid if I knew in the back of my mind that eventually it will be for naught. You will eventually die in a place due to lag, pvp, etc, where your body will be unrecoverable. I would also argue that there is little reason to invest in long term progression if the gear was so meaningless that losing it wasn't a big deal.
My personal opinion, I am ok with XP loss into that level, but if you start losing levels and degrade your level, then I see little to no reason to play on a pvp server or engage in end game raiding. That type of mechanic will bring out the absolutly most toxic people in both scenes. I wouldn't doubt for a minute that guilds become extremely hostile and toxic over wipes if you can lose your loot or lose levels from dying.
In all honesty I don't see those making it to live, getting too far into live if it does, or the game will just implode on itself like many other games that refuse to adapt and demand to be a "hardcore game" Cough cough wildstar. < which I loved btw and was a hardcore player.. however facts are facts. If your game is too punishing, no one wants to play it.
IF however, they are reasonable and their penalty is fair (xp loss or money loss etc, to a point) then yes I would most definately participate and attempt to get my body back. I just know myself and the typical gamer (disregarding age or whether they played EQ or not) and i know the rage quit will be hot and fast in those first few weeks if gear loss and level loss is a prime componant of the game. That will snowball into a wildfire of forum rage and spelling future doom for the games casual player base (which you 100% have to have, to have a healthy game) you are fooling yourself if you think "screw those casual plebs" those casual plebs are what keeps the server running.I'm a casual plebe, I have a real life, job wife other hobbies as well. And I could easily find an hour to get my corpse back just as easy as I can find an hour to play a game.
And I totally agree with Chogar. Experience loss without level loss (experience debt) will not be enough to do a corpse run.
Well, that's good for you but you are not the majority :P jsut saying. And as I mentioned, my personal opinion on the matter from watching other games implode from similar ideas. If they have it then they have it, but I won't be surprised when the backlash comes.
I can't say for sure I'm speaking for the majority or not. But a can say, as I have a time or two before that this forum, or any of them for that matter, is definitely NOT the majority. They are simply more vocal. They are the people that live for gaming, that spend hours opon hours on games and sites sharing their opinions and desires for where the game needs to go or how it should progress.
They are in my opinion the driving force through the years in the demise of the MMORPG genre.
This group of people are not the bread and butter of what makes a game viable or not. What is there here 10k, 20k users? To make Pantheon thrive it's going to take several hundred thousand at least. I'm pretty sure VR would be most pleased to see that number hit millions. And of those potential millions it's my opinion if it were to be measured at least 85% of them would fall into the "casual plebs" catagory. The ones that want to play in a virtual world full of danger and adventure, but don't want to spend their time going through massive forum post to defend their position on topics. They simply take it in stride and move on.
I'm here not because I find this fun, but because I own my part of sitting back silent while I watched that 15% destroy EQ and then WOW through the years. If I stay silent then I have have as much responsibly for bad game choices as the ones suggesting them. So this time I paid my support, I joined the forum, and I give my input. If the game comes out and it's just another hand holding bore fest. Then at least I know I did what I can.
Like call BS when somebody says "I have a wife, kids and job now, I don't have time to spend an hour on a corpse run"
Unfortunately, my sub $ will be the same as yours so my voice has just as much right to be heard, and my opinion, just as much weight as yours.
Tanix said:Manouk said:I think 7 days is enough time to get a corpse, even with penalty of item loss. I am talking 7 RL days counting from when you log in and stopping when you log out.
My thinking is: it can enable you to die with your corpse deep in who-knows-where with all its precious hard-earned quest armor/weapons/rings. You log out and go on vacation. 2 weeks later you come back and oh yeah my corpse! when you log in, the timer is 6days 23hours 58min remaining, or something untill it poofs.
The control: for guarding againt RMT'ers that will use corpses as storage , if a rez if offered, it must be accepted. If the rez is not accepted a message will come up to the player telling them if they dont accept the rez, all their items will poof. The game is sophisticated enough, and targeted (niche) enough, and with some talk about Esports and reaction times? the excuse "I clicked the wrong button!" is unnaceptible and player takes responsibility.
Yes it may cause rage quits, so be it. It can even have a "are you sure?" check. Further control, the rez box can stay up for 1 hour, if the player camps within that time the rez goes away and corpse poofs. Granted that may be enough time for the RMT'er to create a new account, transfer the items and kill the player again and have another 7 days. But from a business standpoint thats also a new sub. Coincidentlaly the player driven community enforcement may be quite the deterent to RMT'ers since a majority of players may be offering drive-by rezzes on those corpses from their own bonhommie, causing the RMT'er to have to create a sub every time the corpse is rezzed if they want to keep that storage.
This may be draconian but its not our world, its their world with its own rules. Coincidentally, I recall a post on these forums a ways back where a player who liked playing a bard gleefully anticipated being able to drag a players corpse deeper into a dungeon or into lava and leaving and ignoring tells, as they recalled the pleasure of having done that previously, and could not wait to experience that same pleasure again.
The 7 days real time and a "are you sure?" check I think would be reasonable. However I realize my response has drifted away from the point, that if accepted by a player does away with these concerns which is: its dangerous out there, one must live and learn and the death must be enough reinforcement to drive player behavior to avoid it while at the same time allowing the player to accept the consequences of the death as per the rules of the game.
So your argument is that if a player can not get to their body in 7 days, they should have all of their equipment erased?
I am a big objector to those going on about RL getting in the way of things, but this as a penalty, it is.. not reasonable and it was one of the most hated results for anyone who experienced it in EQ. To have hundreds, if not thousands of hours spent on a character just deleted because a person did not recover their corpse in time (7 days, and how is 7 days considered reasonable?), well... not only do I disagree, but such a game that would PURPOSELY implement that feature (remember EQ doing this was merely a hardware/software limitation of the time and 7 days was a component of that), that is a severe imbalance of risk/reward.
Even with 7 RL days counting from when you log in? I think that is generous and doable. You die. You log out. You log back in tomorrow and you have 6 days 23hrs and 58min to get your corpse. You log after an hour. A month later, you log back in, you now have 6 days 22hrs 20min to get your corpse and your stuff.
The tangent on corpse bank control was my oen.
Manouk said:Tanix said:Manouk said:I think 7 days is enough time to get a corpse, even with penalty of item loss. I am talking 7 RL days counting from when you log in and stopping when you log out.
My thinking is: it can enable you to die with your corpse deep in who-knows-where with all its precious hard-earned quest armor/weapons/rings. You log out and go on vacation. 2 weeks later you come back and oh yeah my corpse! when you log in, the timer is 6days 23hours 58min remaining, or something untill it poofs.
The control: for guarding againt RMT'ers that will use corpses as storage , if a rez if offered, it must be accepted. If the rez is not accepted a message will come up to the player telling them if they dont accept the rez, all their items will poof. The game is sophisticated enough, and targeted (niche) enough, and with some talk about Esports and reaction times? the excuse "I clicked the wrong button!" is unnaceptible and player takes responsibility.
Yes it may cause rage quits, so be it. It can even have a "are you sure?" check. Further control, the rez box can stay up for 1 hour, if the player camps within that time the rez goes away and corpse poofs. Granted that may be enough time for the RMT'er to create a new account, transfer the items and kill the player again and have another 7 days. But from a business standpoint thats also a new sub. Coincidentlaly the player driven community enforcement may be quite the deterent to RMT'ers since a majority of players may be offering drive-by rezzes on those corpses from their own bonhommie, causing the RMT'er to have to create a sub every time the corpse is rezzed if they want to keep that storage.
This may be draconian but its not our world, its their world with its own rules. Coincidentally, I recall a post on these forums a ways back where a player who liked playing a bard gleefully anticipated being able to drag a players corpse deeper into a dungeon or into lava and leaving and ignoring tells, as they recalled the pleasure of having done that previously, and could not wait to experience that same pleasure again.
The 7 days real time and a "are you sure?" check I think would be reasonable. However I realize my response has drifted away from the point, that if accepted by a player does away with these concerns which is: its dangerous out there, one must live and learn and the death must be enough reinforcement to drive player behavior to avoid it while at the same time allowing the player to accept the consequences of the death as per the rules of the game.
So your argument is that if a player can not get to their body in 7 days, they should have all of their equipment erased?
I am a big objector to those going on about RL getting in the way of things, but this as a penalty, it is.. not reasonable and it was one of the most hated results for anyone who experienced it in EQ. To have hundreds, if not thousands of hours spent on a character just deleted because a person did not recover their corpse in time (7 days, and how is 7 days considered reasonable?), well... not only do I disagree, but such a game that would PURPOSELY implement that feature (remember EQ doing this was merely a hardware/software limitation of the time and 7 days was a component of that), that is a severe imbalance of risk/reward.
Even with 7 RL days counting from when you log in? I think that is generous and doable. You die. You log out. You log back in tomorrow and you have 6 days 23hrs and 58min to get your corpse. You log after an hour. A month later, you log back in, you now have 6 days 22hrs 20min to get your corpse and your stuff.
The tangent on corpse bank control was my oen.
Lets take a different approach.
Tell me why a system as you describe will be better for game play, to promote risk/reward than that of a system where the player corpse does not rot in 7 days, but they still have to recover it?
Just to be clear on those that are worried about gear loss..
Don't confused gear on corpse with permanent gear loss.
7.0 Will there be a ‘death penalty’?
We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death. While the details of this system are not yet fleshed out (and will likely be tweaked and changed a bit during beta), you can expect death to be something you’d rather avoid. That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items.
Shea said:I am in agreement with you Tanix on this subject ... Back in the shall we just say OLD DAYS . on RZ server you did lose all . no person to hail to rtecover things it was gone for good .
I agree thats a horrid way to teach anyone about the world or dangers , they only have so much game play to start all over would be game breaking for many people .
For myself I can deal with it :):):) .
Agreed, and my issue is more of the fact of balance of risk/reward.
Now if they made the game more like a "Rogue Like", then risk/reward would be balance differently as the earning of rewards would be more common and the conerstone of play would be about "lasting" in play, not the long term development of a character as we know it in MMOs.
So I completely understand the perm death, perm equipment loss positions of some players, but if this game is anything like EQ, where long term development is the focus, having people spend hours, tens of hours, and in some rare cases hundreds of hours to obtain gear, allowing it to be all wiped away like it was a single player rogue like is not simply wrong, it is absurd.
Fulton said:Just to be clear on those that are worried about gear loss..
Don't confused gear on corpse with permanent gear loss.
7.0 Will there be a ‘death penalty’?
We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death. While the details of this system are not yet fleshed out (and will likely be tweaked and changed a bit during beta), you can expect death to be something you’d rather avoid. That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items.
Agreed, and a VERY important point to remember.
Gear loss is not permanent, it just means you have to go where you died to retrieve it.