I absolutely love the fact that life should be hard in game, but if a death creates a brutally long corpse run, then that will cause a lot of people to rage quit. It is also a disincentive for the early pioneers to veer to deep into dungeons. If only a few groups are capable of getting to a certain location, and that group now has to do a corpse run naked, your gonna have a lot of hard core players freaking out. Might be a good idea to have a spell that certain classes have that teleport corpses to your locations, so long as you are in zone, or withing X distance of said corpse. The spell should have a very expensive reagent needed to cast though. That way, you may only be out an hour or so instead of day(s), and requires that you have good friends willing to cast said spell for you (which encourages players to have good reputations within the community).
WarKnight said:Anyone have clarification?
Going off of what Zorkon said, assuming he knows more than us, and to my own apiphany, where Kilsin says "loot loss" he may not be talking about gear loss, maybe just items in inventory like silk, bat wings or currency.
Or, im completely wrong and he was referring to gear loss. Just a thought to consider until we know more.
Valorous1 said:WarKnight said:Anyone have clarification?
Going off of what Zorkon said, assuming he knows more than us, and to my own apiphany, where Kilsin says "loot loss" he may not be talking about gear loss, maybe just items in inventory like silk, bat wings or currency.
Or, im completely wrong and he was referring to gear loss. Just a thought to consider until we know more.
ahh maybe that's what was meant. I always considered gear to fall under the loot umbrella.
But if this is the case, wouldn't everyone just bank all their loot/plat before going to a dungeon effectively negating a lot of the death mechanic?
Manouk said:MMO Escort mission trope.
Before there were escort missions, there was this. (hence, "corpse run" and the fear/motivation/caution to playing the game it created).
This MMO trope was begotten from emergent game play because of the corpse run, and I think shoud stay there. (geared or higher players would escort the naked player back down to the players corpse, after the naked player had run back and asked strangers for help or was the only one that died in the group- provided the group had time-("sry, gotta camp, kids birthday, will help tomorrow, promise!")
I don't think your theory on how escort missions came to be in MMO's is supported by the history of escorts missions in MMO's.
I'm 99% sure that Ulitima Online (UO) had escort prisoner quest NPC's you could find in bandit camps and lizzard man camps ect in 1997-1998, and UO is considered by many to be the first true MMO ever made. ( yes I'm discounting Meridian 59 that came out in 1996, it wasn't quite big enough or popular enough to be called an MMO IMO.)
So...yeah I can see why you might think that escort missions come from corpse runs, but that theory doesn't hold water if your an old timer.
If you have some obscure info from a Dev on UO stating they got the idea for those escorts from corpse runs say in 1996 during beta or somthing in a article,I would love to read it and be educated.
Otherwise I suggest that the idea of escorting someone from one place to another and protecting them is much more likely based on real life history, as in people being escorted while on pilgrimage for one example, out of probably hundreds if not thousands of real life examples of people being escorted and the challanges they might face.
Hopfully no offense is taken Manouk, I just hate to see something presented as a verified fact when it probably is not supported by facts.
Kilsin said:If your character died in an extremely difficult area, would you bother to try and get your corpse back or just leave it to rot and take the exp hit/loot loss? #MMORPG #communitymatters
I'll always go back and get it. Besides, with gear/items remaining on corpses (that's in, yes?) you really need to go back to your corpse.
Would always try to get it back as long as the penalty for not doing so is significant enough that it can't just be ignored.
If it can be, you'll have people dropping their money in the bank and jumping off a cliff to travel to a bind location or whatever. That should not be a viable method to save time.
It depends on the death penalty on the corpse run you guys decide to choose.
I would probably always try to get it tho since there should be an exp loss or exp debt gain that could be reduced by getting your corpse. I am a lil opposed to losing the gear when you die tho since it implies you would most probably have to go at it naked, if you cant find anyone to help you out at the time you die.
a) I would do exp loss or exp debt gain which ever suits VR more
b) Instead of losing gear I would do money/bags, are you willing to lose your consumables and bags, idk about you guys but I would not especially since during quest or groups you are caring merchandise, to either use in the quest, which losing would mean you would have to find again those items or in a grind group items you can sell or use to upgrade your gear being by buying or crafting. Also by keeping the gear you can actually try and recover the corpse by yourself instead of only relying outside help to recover your corpse, this is situational ofcourse:
b1) If you were deep in a dungeon with a group and you wipe and people leave then you would have to get into another group or ask another group to help you get there or drag it out, but if you have to move with a group either in it or just following you would be able to contribute to the pathing of the group to your corpse because you still have your gear.
b2) If you are alone doing a quest and you die in a really hard spot, if you have your geard and can drag the corpse then maybe you can do it yourself or if you class can't do that, you can atleast help as a support for the person or persons that will help you get your corpse.
Bottom line is I would try to get corpse and only give up if it was really impossible to get or you can't find people that can reach in the corpse's decaying timer.
Definatly would try everything i could to get my corpse back. especially with this kind of game where everything is slower and more hard fought. I remember plenty of times in eq, when i would be running around a new zone or a place i didnt know that well and died. was very very discouraging spending the next 2 days trying to find my corpse. Its been noted that there will be a summon corpse ish type ability however i dont think it would be a terrible idea for like a general "rezzer" "corpse summon" type hub in a main city where if you couldnt find help this would be an option but make it a hard hit. like 100% exp loss and 12 IRL hours of uncurable rez sickness.. would prevent over use but if all other options failed said player wouldnt have to start from scratch or feel overly discouraged with the game.
Vanguard had a good system, take the exp hit or recover for little loss. The versatility of this system was nice, if i a soloing in a far place with very few people around to help thn yes I may take the hit, if I am in a group and there is time then do a corpse run, however item loss is no good.
Talonguard said:Manouk said:MMO Escort mission trope.
Before there were escort missions, there was this. (hence, "corpse run" and the fear/motivation/caution to playing the game it created).
This MMO trope was begotten from emergent game play because of the corpse run, and I think shoud stay there. (geared or higher players would escort the naked player back down to the players corpse, after the naked player had run back and asked strangers for help or was the only one that died in the group- provided the group had time-("sry, gotta camp, kids birthday, will help tomorrow, promise!")
I don't think your theory on how escort missions came to be in MMO's is supported by the history of escorts missions in MMO's.
I'm 99% sure that Ulitima Online (UO) had escort prisoner quest NPC's you could find in bandit camps and lizzard man camps ect in 1997-1998, and UO is considered by many to be the first true MMO ever made. ( yes I'm discounting Meridian 59 that came out in 1996, it wasn't quite big enough or popular enough to be called an MMO IMO.)
So...yeah I can see why you might think that escort missions come from corpse runs, but that theory doesn't hold water if your an old timer.
If you have some obscure info from a Dev on UO stating they got the idea for those escorts from corpse runs say in 1996 during beta or somthing in a article,I would love to read it and be educated.
Otherwise I suggest that the idea of escorting someone from one place to another and protecting them is much more likely based on real life history, as in people being escorted while on pilgrimage for one example, out of probably hundreds if not thousands of real life examples of people being escorted and the challanges they might face.
Hopfully no offense is taken Manouk, I just hate to see something presented as a verified fact when it probably is not supported by facts.
None taken! and yes it is a theory, I didnt mention that. Thanks for the grounding.
If my corpse had anything of value on it yes I would go back and get it. One of the beautiful things about EQ to me was that nothing was guaranteed. You could lose your corpse deep in a dungeon and have to assemble a group or a rescue team to get them back. Usually when the world is full of life that isn't near as much of a problem. But in the days after everyone reaches cap and not many are playing that mechanic becomes even more painful. But still worth it.
One of the best things about dungeon crawls to me was the possibility of screwing up and dying with a hard/long CR. Made peaking around each corner exciting and something you didn't do lightly. You didn't just go off wandering around.
Trasak said:That really depends on how "extremely difficult" it really is and how hard it is to replace the gear. 4 hours of exp grinding might be worth while giving up on but gear representing 200+ hours of farming/camping not so much.
Pretty much sums up what I am thinking as well.
Kilsin said:If your character died in an extremely difficult area, would you bother to try and get your corpse back or just leave it to rot and take the exp hit/loot loss? #MMORPG #communitymatters
In case I dieing meant: I keep my gear but only the content of my inventory/not attuned loot is lost together with xp.
I will be less inclined to retreive it, unless the loot was very difficult to come by. There would still be an urge to get my corpse back and if possible I'll try my outmost to gather my lost loot/inventory.
I would try. If I actually lost valuable gear, I will likely quit the game.
Seriously, get rid of Naked corpse runs and add in Level Loss (from exps loss) instead. Make getting the corpse back because you want 4-5 hours of EXPs back. Not because of gear.
I know there is a lot of rose colored glasses - nostalgia going on in these forums, but losing hard earned items will make all but a few quit the game.
From what we know, high level quest/epic loot will be soulbound, so I don't think you can loose it. Normal dropped gear however, and all the other stuff in your inventory...bags, trinkets, consumables etc. Getting all this back may be expensive and time consuming. If those expenses are bigger than those for getting your corpse back, the choice is clear.
I hope there will be enough time for rescue attempts (like the 7 days in EQ before your corpse rotted. Maybe even more for very difficult areas?). If several classes can help in such a case (necro summoning corpse, or rogue/monk corpse dragging) you should have enough chance to get the corpse back.
I still think a case could be made for graveyards, where corpses pop up automatically if they rot after the 7 days or whatever. They would certainly avoid difficult customer calls by having such a last resort option.
I am afraid to answer this because this looks like some fishing for the corpse run debate.
XP loss is a short term loss. All that xp was recently gained, that can be recouped relatively quickly. The gear is a long term loss. Since the plan is to make gear unique and have longevity, I will probably be wearing something for 2 or 3 expansions ago. Additionally I will probably be carrying some tradeskill tools or maybe some quest items in my bags. Damn straight I'm getting my corpse back.
That said, I think corpse runs, as much as they can suck, adds to the challenge and community involvment in the game. If you go back to get your corpse without gear loss, the only real penalty there is having to back to where you were with the same difficulty as getting there the first time. Assuming a rez is available, there is a minimal xp loss so the only real penalty is a bit of a time sink. Gear loss makes this much more difficult if not impossible given that the climate system may require certain gear just to be in te zone. This would require you to follow a group or hire the services of a rogue to sneak or a nerco to summon the corpse if they will be able to do that. This is important to communimy involvment and gives certain classes a way to use their skills to make some coin those who can rez and port.
If the pillars of this game are to hold true, damn right I would. I got into the area somehow, most likely I looted some rare mats or nice loot. If character class uniqueness mean something, and friendships mean something, than I will be able to get my stuff back. The whole point of being in a dangerous place, is to have that feel of high adventure, risk and reward.
OK this question must be for a special circumstance, like falling into a pit of 1000 vipers of death or something unusual right? where you can only teleport out after killing all the high level vipers?
While corpse runs serve as an efficient catalyst for loss aversion I'm not convinced that there aren't better ways to achieve the same thing without forcing players down a linear path of recovery. Holding our gear hostage basically means we have no choice but to do X (retrieve corpse) before we can continue to progress. To that end, I would propose:
1) Every death results in a loss of 12% XP, with the possibility to de-level.
2) Finding your corpse will grant you 6% XP. (Corpses last X hours.)
3) Being rezzed will restore 6% of XP. (No increased percentage based on spell quality.)
I try to imagine scenarios where players gain entry to areas that require enhanced acclimation, player abilities, artifacts (grappling hook, ring of anchors, crest of illumination), access keys, or a combination of each. Death in these areas are extra punitive if players don't have a reliable way of returning to their corpse. So imagine you have the summoner who builds a raft or bridge … or the rogue that drops rope, the warrior that bashes a wall, the ranger that helps you fly over a chasm, the druid that grants acclimation bonuses or calms a storm. If you die after navigating past these obstacles you're at least semi-reliant on having those people in your group to return to that same location. Add in access keys (they won't all be as simple as the first key in HC) as an additional layer and now there are a bunch of situations where people can die in an area that could be extremely difficult to return to. This sounds like a really stressful situation to be in … whether you are the player relying on others, or the player that others are relying on. Player interdependence is a beautiful thing but I think we're pushing it too far if someone can end up being naked for an extended period of time because they can't recreate the exact set of variables that allowed them access to a given area.
To be clear, I'm okay with the idea of "Deaths in these areas are extra punitive if players don't have a reliable way of returning to their corpse." If players can't get back to their corpse then they suffer additional XP loss. That's fine. You adventured deep into a dungeon, bashed a few walls, took a raft down the stream filled with piranhas, and explored an area that is usually locked. The stakes are high in this situation because if you end up wiping there is a chance you'll lose a significantly higher chunk of XP than you would in an area where you could reliably return to your corpse. That seems fair and I think most players would be willing to push through in this scenario despite the added risk. Attaching item loss to corpse recovery changes things, though, as it feels like the ultimate "artificial limiter." What happens when our gear has acclimation bonuses on it? We meet the cold threshold with our situational gear but then we die and lose it … how are we supposed to get back to our gear? I'm sure this aspect of the death penalty resonates with former EQ players but we need to remember that Terminus is going to be much more dangerous than Norrath ever was. Penalty or not, the current iteration of "corpse run" doesn't sit well with me. There are too many implications that will need to be compensated for with this kind of penalty and it really gets in the way of:
We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death. While the details of this system are not yet fleshed out (and will likely be tweaked and changed a bit during beta), you can expect death to be something you’d rather avoid. That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items.
I would rather see the penalty shift toward increased experience loss (that can cause you to de-level) and maybe gold / deity favor loss than forcing players to return to the scene of the crime which feels linear, artificial, and limiting. Maybe it doesn't seem like any of those things if you have a ton of experience playing EQ but as an MMO veteran who has never dealt with this exact type of penalty I can tell you that I think it will feel like all of those. I think about the world being designed with this type of penalty in mind and it really inhibits the potential of what I think is possible. Is this truly the best way to handle the death penalty or are we only doing it this way because it's the EQ way? There is a balance that needs to be struck when it comes to creating truly challenging content and punishing people for mistakes. My understanding is that EQ focused way more on the latter than the former. I hope we can achieve a healthy middle ground but it's going to require give and take. I consider the following excerpt from "What is Pantheon?" and can't help but think that there is a better way to go about this.
"Because Pantheon values the paradigm of great risk vs. great reward, the player will always be encouraged to push themselves out the door and to embrace exploration, adventure, danger and the community of players alongside them."
As long as XP is considered a truly precious resource, losing any amount of it will always sting. By attaching XP to corpses, rather than gear, players would have a choice to make rather than being pigeonholed. If at any point players start suggesting that "XP loss isn't enough of a penalty!" -- the great news is ... this can always be adjusted. I always shake my head when I see people say that. The more difficult it is to gain XP, the more painful it is when you lose it. It's a universal resource that can/should be measured by time/effort. If it doesn't take much time/effort to earn the resource then it isn't all that valuable. Players were terrified of 5% XP loss in FFXI. At max level, that was at least a full hour of grinding in a well balanced and coordinated group that was focused exclusively on XP gain. XP Gain and XP Loss are pretty much the yin and yang of the journey, IMO. The light and the darkness, the progress and the setback.
XP should always be important and cherished. That's just basic fundamental gameplay as far as I'm concerned. It shouldn't be possible for solo players to quad kite challenging NPC's. There should be no rez spell that reduces the loss component of the XP penalty to .3% -- there should be no "tools" that allow players to circumvent content to recover corpses, either. No graveyard, no dragging. If you die, you have X amount of time to recover your corpse before it expires. Again ... going with the assumption that XP is truly a precious resource, I think most players would attempt to recover their corpse since the penalty would be effectively doubled if it rots. If it's in a really bad spot then maybe they eat the loss. The interesting dynamic here is that you can create those "really bad spots" more liberally if players aren't being pigeonholed into retrieval. If it's really late at night and people need to log off, it is what it is. Your gear isn't being held hostage so you can try to find another group elsewhere. Or maybe you find different players to help you retrieve your corpse before it rots ... but rather than being naked and handicapped along the way, you can actually fulfill your role in the group.