Kilsin said:If your character died in an extremely difficult area, would you bother to try and get your corpse back or just leave it to rot and take the exp hit/loot loss? #MMORPG #communitymatters
Why bother recovering a body when all the loss is exp alone? Exp is time, and if the time and effort is far too tedious to get your corpse, there is no point, so.. take the easy street and just eat the loss. Lets be honest, exp grinding gimmicks will become the norm and so most will skip recovery to just go to their special place to grind out their loss.
This is why there must be naked corpse runs and your exp penalty should be quite large (with level loss a possibility). This is the only way to keep people from just rationalizing as I did. If they are FORCED to obtain their corpse, it changes the game entirely. Exploring becomes much more dangerous and it allows skilled players to excel over unskilled ones who zerg or make rash decisions. The beauty of EQ was the numerous subtle aspects to which combined to make a very dangerous world where people actually feared in play.
I used to see arguments by people that these types of penalties are bad because some people won't want to take the risk. My response? Absolutely correct, which is why it creates a sense of danger to play, the very thing that separates those who want to be entertained and those who want to play a game. It is one of the key aspects to which segregates modern game design from past, ie risk vs reward.
Naunet said:We're going to lose gear? Ew.
There would be no option. I would get to my corpse.
Honestly, if I lost all my gear and stuff, I'd seriously have to consider throwing in the towel and playing something else forever.
EQ had a bug where after 7 days, your corpse would disappear forever. This was a technology limitation, not a design of EQ.
So, if you lose your corpse in a game like this, I seriously doubt they will put in a timer where it just poofs. Nobody I knew thought having your corpse rot was a good game mechanic back then as many of us had dealt with item loss at one point in our play.
That said, my guess in this game it would be that you just have to go back and get your corpse, when you can. I don't think you would lose your gear or be on a time limit.
This way if it is a late night, you can come back on another day and get help to recover it (in EQ, it was using the aid of multiple classes who could stealth recover, FD to get it, sunnon it, rez back, etc..). It was not uncommon to call out to a dungeon if anyone was near your corpse and have a healer rez you back, with a wizard translocating you out. This was part of the community aspect of EQ as all knew it was tough to get your corpse from time to time (especially if you wiped in a deep dungeon or raid zone and couldn't get back easily to it).
This created a very strong sense of fear and excitement, death actually meant something. If you don't look at death as something you greatly fear, then it isn't a penalty, it isn't something that keeps you on your toes, it is merely a bother.
Aradune said: Good questions: No permanent corpse or item loss, regardless of what system we end up with -- i can say that for certain right now. (Unless it was on a special 'iron man' shard or something).
Aradune said: ... I would add that significant exp loss at death, most of which can be recovered when you return to your corpse, can be pretty compelling as well.
vjek said:Aradune said: Good questions: No permanent corpse or item loss, regardless of what system we end up with -- i can say that for certain right now. (Unless it was on a special 'iron man' shard or something).
A little further in the same thread.. in response to " that it be mandatory we retrieve our corpse "Aradune said: ... I would add that significant exp loss at death, most of which can be recovered when you return to your corpse, can be pretty compelling as well.
And finally, from the FAQ today, under "Death".
" death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items. "
Kilsin clarified his Feb 27th community question on reddit yesterday, apparently the whole "loot loss" was not intended to indicate this would be a thing in Pantheon.
They specifically point out that perm-loss will not be a thing, but do not specify exactly if there will be corpse runs to get your loot back or not other than "maybe". I sure hope it is full naked corpse runs. If it is partial (ie only lose what you equipped), it won't be enough of a penalty.
I guess it is rather subjective to the exp loss comments. What is unreasonable? We have two major divides in this issue. Gamers of the more modern era have not dealt with severe penalties, so their idea of what is unreasonable might differ greatly from those of the older generations of games.
Tanix said:Naunet said:We're going to lose gear? Ew.
There would be no option. I would get to my corpse.
Honestly, if I lost all my gear and stuff, I'd seriously have to consider throwing in the towel and playing something else forever.
EQ had a bug where after 7 days, your corpse would disappear forever. This was a technology limitation, not a design of EQ.
So, if you lose your corpse in a game like this, I seriously doubt they will put in a timer where it just poofs. Nobody I knew thought having your corpse rot was a good game mechanic back then as many of us had dealt with item loss at one point in our play.
That said, my guess in this game it would be that you just have to go back and get your corpse, when you can. I don't think you would lose your gear or be on a time limit.
This way if it is a late night, you can come back on another day and get help to recover it (in EQ, it was using the aid of multiple classes who could stealth recover, FD to get it, sunnon it, rez back, etc..). It was not uncommon to call out to a dungeon if anyone was near your corpse and have a healer rez you back, with a wizard translocating you out. This was part of the community aspect of EQ as all knew it was tough to get your corpse from time to time (especially if you wiped in a deep dungeon or raid zone and couldn't get back easily to it).
This created a very strong sense of fear and excitement, death actually meant something. If you don't look at death as something you greatly fear, then it isn't a penalty, it isn't something that keeps you on your toes, it is merely a bother.
Yeah, I wouldn't really respect the enviroment if I spawn with my gear every time I die. Exp lose, no matter how big, will just annoy me more than me being scared. The corpse retrieving process in getting your equipment back made me respect the enviroment way more.
Even with 7 day limitation no one really lost their corpses past a certain level. Only in POF was it a much different story since there wasn't a safe zone in and you couldn't run out once you zoned in. Other than that every single other place you could get your corpse back a number of ways.
The biggest variable here is, "How much have I already invested in that character?".
If the answer is that I just started the character a couple of days ago, I might just reroll. If the answer is that I've been playing that character for months, and completed a few "extremely difficult" tasks and obtained the comensurate rewards, I'd go to whatever lengths necessary to recover completely.
I lost about half of my gear to corpse decay in Cazic Thule one time because it took me like two weeks to get it back. (I went LD because I lost my dial up connection during a storm and came back the next day with no group around to help). Getting help to fight back to it was just causing other people to die and barely get their corpses back. If the game ends up being that difficult at the start I will either play a caster or a monk (a class that isn't too terribly dependent on a lot of gear) until the player base is established enough to be able to get assistance from people. I don't see people being overly excited about helping others go on corpse runs in difficult areas for the first several months of this game's release unless the players are already in the area. What some people aren't thinking about is that there won't be "higher level players" to assist you, or summon your corpse, or resurrect you in that dungeon where mobs detect stealth, or agro through walls.
I would gladly take the exp hit if my gear didn't decay. Not to mention avoiding the potential of losing more xp attempting to get your corpse back while running across the game world naked...
For those who keep insisting that XP loss couldn't be enough of a penalty, let's play with the idea that you lose a full level (100% XP ... not just setting you back to 0% of your current level) when you die. How much would that sting? For context, consider that clerics could get a 96% rez in EQ -- so even if players did lose an entire level, it would only amount to 4% true loss if they were able to get a rez from a cleric. To put things in perspective, that would still be less than the standard amount of XP lost from any death in FFXI. My opinion is that the XP component of the death penalty in EQ was relatively weak -- this is mostly because of how many former EQ players I have seen insist that XP loss is barely a consideration on their radar. I see people go on and on about how important player interdependence is, and why having gear loss attached to the death penalty is so important. Flip the script for a moment and consider the idea that efficient XP gain could only be achieved in a full group that focuses on challenging/risky content. Nobody would be able to run around quad kiting challenging NPC's. Duos/Trios could never be half as efficient as a full group. A random composition of "any 6 classes" wouldn't function nearly as well as one that starts their build with every role of the quaternity and then synergizes based on what that class/role makeup looks like, where they are going, and what kind of enemies they will be battling.
When I think of player interdependence, I like the idea of overcoming challenging obstacles that require the assistance of other players. XP acquisition would satisfy that need in a big/consistent way (with tons of replay value), especially if the algorithm is heavily slanted toward rewarding a full, well-rounded and coordinated group that focuses on challenging (yellow con or higher) content. It seems to me that some folks have this deep sense of "community" attached to the idea of needing other players to help them recover their corpse. So several classes could sneak/invis past content and then drag your corpse to the zoneline. A necromancer could summon it, for a cost. A monk could flop like a fish and then bring it back to you. A cleric can provide a rez that is so amazing that it wipes out 96% of the penalty! Sure, all of these things qualify as interdependence. At the same time ... they don't sound fun, and they don't sound difficult. It shouldn't be possible for players to fight their way to a corpse while naked if the game is tuned and balanced to be challenging. Because of that, you then need to create these "loopholes" that allow players to circumvent that impossibility. I am a huge fan of interdependence but it's way more enjoyable when it involves cooperation. If I die somewhere, I'd like to fight my way back to my corpse and get revenge ... not sit around waiting to give someone /consent just so they can go fish my corpse out for me.
If players aren't concerned about losing a chunk (or two, if they can't recover their corpse) of XP then there are some serious underlying issues that need to get resolved, IMO. The leveling journey is supposed to be long and trying. XP shouldn't fall in our lap every time our character sneezes or farts. Leveling up should be difficult because the content itself is difficult. If players don't respect the environment, they would learn very quickly that it's far easier to make their XP bar go backward than it is to go forward. Likewise, if they don't adventure into the more dangerous areas and engage the more challenging content, they wouldn't be able to gain XP at an efficient rate, or acquire the items/abilities/spells that make it possible. I understand that corpse dragging and high potency rez spells can lead to player interdependency. I challenge that notion, though, and think that player interdependence is 10x more meaningful when it's a constant element of trying to progress. With XP on corpses, it would always be possible to alleviate the loss if you manage to get to your corpse before it decays ... and since the game is difficult, and players can't leverage loopholes to accomplish that, you would still need to work with other players to do it, and have a sense of urgency to do it rather than it feeling 100% mandatory. Sometimes they won't be available, and that's okay. You'll lose some extra XP but you probably aren't going to lose sleep that night over a game.
XP loss per death can be tweaked to whatever number feels appropriate. Whether it's 5%, 10%, 15%, 20% ... whatever the number may be, it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that XP loss could just be ignored or easily rationalized. Sure you can rationalize eating a loss but when XP is actually considered a valuable resource, it sure as hell won't feel good. If you attach XP to corpses rather than loot, you can also add a corpse rot mechanic. It's already been stated that there won't be permanent loot loss. As such, that probably eliminates the possibility for our corpses to rot and for gear to be lost. Replace loot with XP and now you can add corpse decay to the game. You know that awesome sense of player interdependence that folks want when it comes to corpse retrieval? Now you can add a sense of urgency to it ... a sense of risk vs reward. You actually have a decision to make rather than being pigeonholed. Do you try to fight your way back to your corpse before it decays, and potentially risk dying again along the way? Or do you eat the loss? Again, this is with the understanding that it wouldn't be possible to drag corpses or summon them to the zoneline. There would be no 96% rez that makes XP loss inconsequential. There would be no loopholes, and there would be no easy XP gain. You would have a limited window of time to retrieve your corpse before it rots and you would absolutely need other players to do it.
I have already spelled out why I think gear loss doesn't seem all that viable or aligned with some of the evolutions planned for Pantheon. With the way acclimation is supposed to work ... with how artifacts are supposed to help players "answer" atmospheres ... with an emphasis on needing situational gear for certain encounters (that might be a respawned gate-keeper after you die beyond them) ... with new tools that allow players to interact with and overcome elements of the environment (rogue rope, warrior bash, summoner ladders/rafts, ranger gliding, druid weather alteration, enchanter illusion, etc) -- do we want players holding each other hostage or enjoying their time together? Do you want to be the rogue that helps your group ascend an exotic cliff-face and then know ... if they die up there, they absolutely need you to return? Should it not be possible for players to venture into the deepest depths of a dungeon and then be enticed by what they find rather than be terrified of the idea of dying? I am a huge fan and proponent of loss aversion but it shouldn't be so serious that it actually turns into major risk aversion.
If someone spends 2 hours descending the depths of a dungeon and wants to risk every bit of XP they earned along the way to take a chance at beating a boss they find, I think that's reasonable. If their time is limited then they only get one chance. If they succeed, great! If they fail ... well, they can't stay up all night to try and recover a corpse that deep in the dungeon. They accept that their corpse will rot and they log out of the game. Believe it or not ... when XP is actually valuable, and content truly difficult ... it's entirely possible that players would still avoid fighting that boss! Why is that important? Because their thought process would be rationalized by loss aversion rather than risk aversion. Players would most likely come to that conclusion prior to engaging the boss. They would actually be able to have that discussion ... hey, should we attempt this boss? How much time does everyone have? If we wipe, will we have a chance to make it back down here? If every member of the group is willing to take a chance/risk in this situation ... knowing it's quite likely that they have little to no chance of recovering their corpse before it rots (if they die) ... why is that so bad? They would evalutate the situation and make an informed decision. As long as XP loss actually stings, players would absolutely have some things to consider and think about. This can be balanced with the following FAQ excerpt:
7.0 Will there be a ‘death penalty’?
"We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death. While the details of this system are not yet fleshed out (and will likely be tweaked and changed a bit during beta), you can expect death to be something you’d rather avoid. That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items."
And therein lies the balance. If you hold gear hostage, especially in an area that required a specific class, key, artifact, buff or ability to get to ... these "tools" become more of a stress point (gating mechanism) than a facilitator of positive player interdependence. The more depth and meaning you add to traversing the environment and it's terrain, the more difficult it should be to reproduce that same set of variables. Again, that is fine. As long as the penalty for death is reasonable, and players have a choice that is more based around loss aversion than risk aversion, player interdependence and risk vs reward would be more of a fun/enjoyable aspect of the game. I know this sounds like a crazy concept to some ... but believe it or not, there are a ton of players who actually want to have fun while playing the game!
They want to interact with others and feel needed in a positive way, especially if they enable others to explore, adventure, or overcome something challenging. It doesn't feel so good when players need you to help them get their corpse just so they can continue playing the game after you log. That's just stressful. That's the kind of thing that leads to many folks not joining a group to begin with. They know they won't have the time to invest into a potential corpse run where staying up until 3 AM feels more mandatory than optional ... so why bother going along for the adventure and risking their reputation? That's when people get complacent ... and that doesn't really align with this excerpt from the "What is Pantheon" page:
"Because Pantheon values the paradigm of great risk vs. great reward, the player will always be encouraged to push themselves out the door and to embrace exploration, adventure, danger and the community of players alongside them."
On a final note ... I do think gear loss could still be a reasonable aspect of the death penalty in Pantheon. We have seen "no-rent" items in the streams. Why couldn't these items be lost upon death? There could be various challenges associated with acquiring them ... and then these items could be leveraged for significant benefit as long as players maintain them. If a character dies then these items would poof, or maybe stay attached to their corpse. I think it would be perfectly reasonable if no-rent items were used in this way.
Wow onead. I may not agree with everything you're saying in its entirety, but I have to admire the fervor and passion you put into that post. Bravo.
I do think you have a good underlying point however. It would be useful for all of us to take a step back and say "Pantheon is a completely new game. Are there new and better ways that we can make the death penalty meaningful instead of copying (insert game here)?"
I see a lot of arguments centered around how it would be too harsh, too bad, etc...
This really is the issue and it is the key divide among many. The good news is I think something like this can easily be put into a bucket as to who wants what. I find that most of the things I want, so do certain players and they are consistent to such (with some deviation between some positions). At the same time, I also see the same connection between others here who share similar views opposed to those game expectations.
I think it would be pretty easy to do extensive polling to find the two sides of that coin and then make sure there is a "realm" attending to those needs. Fact is, I know I will not care for the game that some of you want. Nothing wrong with that, we can't all like the same things, but I think these days, due to the cost efficiency and ability, both of those opposing opinons can have what they want.
Yes- I think that once you hit a certain level and attain certain gear it is imperative to retrieve the corpse for both exp and equipment. Although as many folks have stated before, at lower levels if you were exploring and lost all your cloth armour and a rusty dagger- The loss can be easily written off.
BamBam said: I hope to see a npc called The Undertaker in towns, here players can pay xp to get their corpse back. Let's say 10% and a stat debuff lasting 1 hour. On death the player also will lose xp let's say 10% also. A player can't be ressed after using The Undertaker and therefore the full xp lose is 20%. If the player went to he's corpse he could retive a good portion of the death penalty back. If he gets a ress he could retive even more back. Corpse rot could still be a thing with this setup, and items could in theory be lost.
I like the idea- Maybe loss of durability to items and make it pretty detrimental on exp, perhaps even put a time to retrieve the corpse by the undertaker.. Maybe even add in a curveball like they are only located in big city areas. There are a lot of avenues but overall I still think that having to rely or depend on other players to help would be more preferable. This would make someone like a Necromancer to summon a corpse, or a higher level to go drag the corpse back, even a local group jump in and clear something for you a much more viable, immersive, and social experience. It also makes the threat of dying a really really scary thought.
@Tanix Very nice and well written posts. Great thoughts & two thumbs WAY up :)
@adseven No thanks. More challenging death penalty plz.
duplicate post. Added: whatever the result I expect death penalty/corpse recovery to be a hell of a lot harder than WoW/ff. Lol
Nephele said:Wow onead. I may not agree with everything you're saying in its entirety, but I have to admire the fervor and passion you put into that post. Bravo.
I do think you have a good underlying point however. It would be useful for all of us to take a step back and say "Pantheon is a completely new game. Are there new and better ways that we can make the death penalty meaningful instead of copying (insert game here)?"
I appreciate the thought Neph. I am all for a meaningful death penalty in Pantheon. Bring it on!
Syrif said:duplicate post. Added: whatever the result I expect death penalty/corpse recovery to be a hell of a lot harder than WoW/ff. Lol
That shouldn't be hard to achieve (WoW death wasn't a penalty, it was a mild inconvenience). Though that is also why I think we have a strong division here and why I have concern. Each side looks at penalties from a completely different idealogy which is often at complete odds with each other.
@Nephele Of course this will be a completely new game, just as Vanguard and Everquest were completely new games. That should go without saying. If someone wants a clone, said person can go to P99 or Vanilla WoW or ff. I think those are terrible options, but then again I am not looking for a clone hence why myself and others are not there. That small ‘clone wars’ debate is pretty stupid imo. Now, let’s get that challenging and meaningful death penalty/corpse recovery!
Added: if anyone plays P99, no offense meant. P99 would interest me more than say WoW/ff. I just don‘t have a desire to redo quests and content that was already done. I get that the living world and community of Classic is pretty awesome though.