I don't know if it's been discussed before, but on the emu server I played on for years they removed battle meditation unless you sat still for 30 seconds. This was very challenging in some of the end game fights where you had to move constantly. It requires you to get enough gear to have high enough mana pool and keeps the fight in motion. Depending on if there is a raid size limit or not, it can always be balanced. Plus it gets the clerics out and beating on stuff!
lucylle said:I don't know if it's been discussed before, but on the emu server I played on for years they removed battle meditation unless you sat still for 30 seconds. This was very challenging in some of the end game fights where you had to move constantly. It requires you to get enough gear to have high enough mana pool and keeps the fight in motion. Depending on if there is a raid size limit or not, it can always be balanced. Plus it gets the clerics out and beating on stuff!
You can med during combat. You will med MUCH faster sitting down. Moving or not moving for x number of seconds doesn't appear to play into it.
Akilae said:Casters shouldn't have to med any more than non-casters. That would keep the fights balanced and not force one character type from having to prep (gear, pots, etc) any more than any other type.
Wy would non-casters have to med?? Non-casters don't need mana. Casters need to med BECAUSE they need mana.
Akilae said:Casters shouldn't have to med any more than non-casters. That would keep the fights balanced and not force one character type from having to prep (gear, pots, etc) any more than any other type.
How would you balance a caster, with a mana bar, and a rogue without one.
I don't really care if people have to battle med or not, as someone said in a different post its not the regaining mana part that is weird but the thought of fighting a dragon while sitting around haha. I do think they should change it up to something more unique to the classes then just sitting around, same concept just it animates diffrent then sitting on the ground in the middle of a battle.
The other thing I would like to see is mechanics focused around battle med like having to set traps to protect the casters or barriers. If you are going to have a mechanic like that might as well make use of it to create some other obstacles and fun mechanics.
Akilae said:Casters shouldn't have to med any more than non-casters. That would keep the fights balanced and not force one character type from having to prep (gear, pots, etc) any more than any other type.
Save "balance" for all the games that are already out there failing.
Damacon said:add increased ago and decreas the ago range while sitting If you need to med then you need to move away from the action to do it. Or instantly draw ago from the mob.I don't really care if people have to battle med or not, as someone said in a different post its not the regaining mana part that is weird but the thought of fighting a dragon while sitting around haha. I do think they should change it up to something more unique to the classes then just sitting around, same concept just it animates diffrent then sitting on the ground in the middle of a battle.
The other thing I would like to see is mechanics focused around battle med like having to set traps to protect the casters or barriers. If you are going to have a mechanic like that might as well make use of it to create some other obstacles and fun mechanics.
Porygon said:Akilae said:Casters shouldn't have to med any more than non-casters. That would keep the fights balanced and not force one character type from having to prep (gear, pots, etc) any more than any other type.
How would you balance a caster, with a mana bar, and a rogue without one.
Why would you want them to be balanced in the first place ? They are different archetypes. I really hope VR focuses on creating great content with lore instead of wasting every single bit of resource on trying to balance all the classes together. Those make for bland games with cookie cutter characters and with everyone only wanting to run the FOTM character, with the devs losing their mind looking for a balance that is not achievable anyway.
If someone rolls a caster and med is needed, then the class should be appealing enough DESPITE having a downfall other classes may not have. They will also have some benefits other classes may not have. That, to me, is what balance should be like. Not gutting out features for the sake of making everyone the same.
Damacon said:The other thing I would like to see is mechanics focused around battle med like having to set traps to protect the casters or barriers. If you are going to have a mechanic like that might as well make use of it to create some other obstacles and fun mechanics.
I like it! Solid concept regarding shielding casters medding, or maybe at the very least the tank needing to adjust LoS if the mob so he doesn't see the caster while medding.
Also, all for unique medding stances / actions. Sitting doesn't bother me, but I understand why some people feel it is weird
Hokanu said:I like it! Solid concept regarding shielding casters medding, or maybe at the very least the tank needing to adjust LoS if the mob so he doesn't see the caster while medding.
Also, all for unique medding stances / actions. Sitting doesn't bother me, but I understand why some people feel it is weird
Yep I feel if you don't make it interesting the process of battle meding will just feel like a hassle, I know if I was a healer I would enjoy a mechanic behind it making it more a risk for reward type feature instead of just a normal thing. Like its hard to battle med but if you pull it off you get your mana back a lot quicker and have skills devoted to it.
I would tie the personal animations into the mechanic like say a druid meds faster if near vegitation like sucking the mana right out of the plants. You can even plant your own tree as one of the skills but trick behind it is you can only take so much mana from each plant so you have to think about where you fight and how much mana the plants have.
For clerics I would give them something like holy/light energy that works kind of like a battery so if you are in the sun you recharge faster. So in caves you med slower but you can kneel and pray to create like a holy light around you to charge the longer you are in it the faster your mana recharges.
For the shamans I would just give them back cannibalize since that was good mechanic that they kind of had to be wary with already. I would also make their med like a voodoo dance that generates more and more aggro the longer you are in it.
I don't think they plan on giving the casters mana problems, they talked about the wizard regaining mana from using arcane spells, enchanters are mana batteries, and mages rely on thier pets so its sounds to me like the casters won't be doing much battle medding.
Kalok said:Wy would non-casters have to med?? Non-casters don't need mana. Casters need to med BECAUSE they need mana.
Can we just throw out this idea of sitting around waiting in combat as engaging gameplay? Everyone should have ways to actively manage their resources - through certain ability combos, cooldowns, etc.
Naunet said:Kalok said:Wy would non-casters have to med?? Non-casters don't need mana. Casters need to med BECAUSE they need mana.Can we just throw out this idea of sitting around waiting in combat as engaging gameplay? Everyone should have ways to actively manage their resources - through certain ability combos, cooldowns, etc.
I agree with Kalok. Mana is precious, and obviously it's not instant lol. I see no problem with medding to regain mana. I absolutely see no problem with sitting and medding for greater mana recovery either.
Naunet said:Kalok said:Wy would non-casters have to med?? Non-casters don't need mana. Casters need to med BECAUSE they need mana.Can we just throw out this idea of sitting around waiting in combat as engaging gameplay? Everyone should have ways to actively manage their resources - through certain ability combos, cooldowns, etc.
My gut feel is that the mana using classes should all have an ability to gain mana back at a faster rate - either over time or as a spike. Canibalize or Harvest for example. Meditate should definitely still be an option, but I think this should be an out of combat ability to either be used between pulls or by the caster walking away from the fight for a period of time to be able to initiate.
I also love the idea of the group having to protect the casters that are meditating also. Traps, LoS, snares, distract...lots of things could fit here to ramp up the utility of come of the classes.
Meditation during battle is a thing so far in the game. How it will be tackled as more expansions are layed out over time, is to be seen.
It will be very interesting to see how many options are still left, when fights, mobs or scripts get more complicated and players have less and less time to sit during combat. The actual use of meditation during battle will be tested. Still, I'm looking forward to using this feature in the game.
Outside of battle, there should be something for all classes. Not only for mages and priests.
Nowadays, the people behind the character are quick to pick up the smartphone, 2nd monitor or other multimedia to distract themselves while they wait.
I think it's important that this "change in people" compared to the old days, is being weighed and considered.
Keep the game active for all classes during meditation time out of combat. People and technology has changed over time, please don't forget this important fact.
Zorkon said:Akilae said:Casters shouldn't have to med any more than non-casters. That would keep the fights balanced and not force one character type from having to prep (gear, pots, etc) any more than any other type.
Save "balance" for all the games that are already out there failing.
I agree. If you choose a class that has those requirements, then you should be aware of it and prepare for it. Keep “everything must be fair” out of it.
You mean like, As casters need mana recouperation so then melee needs endurance recouperation? or stamina?
(side-track theory crafting below)
I like the idea of druids and a tree or plant that they would have to protect, I would put requirements on it needing to be near a water source and a light source, but that light source could be the clerics or paladins holy light- even if its a temporary holy light. Even a wizard/mage/caster summoned light. perhaps a mechanic similar to a old school tamagotchi where the plant would wither and die if not tended but could come back to life. Allowing the group to come back and forth to it inbetween battles- letting it revive by casting the light and summoning a water element if water/ice(or fire on ice to prodiuce water trickle) is not naturally available and providing the boon. Or let it die if moving on. Necro/shaman/direlord could have the same symbiotic relationship where the shaman plants a totem anywhere, but the necro needs a tomb or graveyard or to bury bones(chips!) to open a gateway to the underworld for the totem to draw on, while the direlord provides the soul essence to link the totem to the underworld allowing the shaman to dream-walk between the worlds and siphon the energies in mana reclamation. Again the totem would crumble and decay if the group moved moved on. the only way that would really work if the druid plants and shamans totems were interchangebale with different effects with other combinations of classes
Melee all have some sort of resource management, they may not need to sit and med but they will constantly be managing their resources. If not done correctly I imagine it will have just as bad consequences, I bet the only classes that are going to need to med in combat are the healers unless its a really really long fight.
If you just think about it there is going to be nothing keeping a mana class from spamming thier most powerful spells until they run out of mana. Where as a melee class your most powerful skills are going to takes almost your entire bar and other resources so you will constantly be managing your resources. So the casters can decide if they want to go all out or conserve but the melee will always be stuck in a pattern of build and then use a big skill.
Like I have said above I think they should make the casters/healers medding a bit more interesting, but I am on the side of medding should exist to keep people from endlessly moving especially in a non instance base game. If you never had to manage mana then 3 groups could probably hold an entire dungeon which would ruin the game for everyone else haha.
Manouk said:(side-track theory crafting below)
I like the idea of druids and a tree or plant that they would have to protect, I would put requirements on it needing to be near a water source and a light source, but that light source could be the clerics or paladins holy light- even if its a temporary holy light. Even a wizard/mage/caster summoned light. perhaps a mechanic similar to a old school tamagotchi where the plant would wither and die if not tended but could come back to life. Allowing the group to come back and forth to it inbetween battles- letting it revive by casting the light and summoning a water element if water/ice(or fire on ice to prodiuce water trickle) is not naturally available and providing the boon. Or let it die if moving on. Necro/shaman/direlord could have the same symbiotic relationship where the shaman plants a totem anywhere, but the necro needs a tomb or graveyard or to bury bones(chips!) to open a gateway to the underworld for the totem to draw on, while the direlord provides the soul essence to link the totem to the underworld allowing the shaman to dream-walk between the worlds and siphon the energies in mana reclamation. Again the totem would crumble and decay if the group moved moved on. the only way that would really work if the druid plants and shamans totems were interchangebale with different effects with other combinations of classes
Yep I really like all these ideas and agree their should be a lot of symbiosis between many classes and not just oh casters/healers like enchanters lol. This is the kind of stuff the game needs to make medding interesting and not just a hassle. Add in a bit more risk to all those things so it keeps things tense and you got yourself a battle mechanic that extremely fun to pull off.
Umbra said: ... I want to see what the group does when the Tank has to sit and med for 30 seconds every minute :)
Personally? If they keep out of combat mana regen a percentage per tick, I don't care what else they do, because that alone will be compensation enough, compared to EQ1.
It is a knife-edge, though. If Joppa takes that one feature away, it is way more fun to play a non caster that gains power the longer you're in combat.
I'm not sitting for 15 minutes without the requisite 3 must-have man regen buffs. Never again. Life is too short.
Syrif said:I agree with Kalok. Mana is precious, and obviously it's not instant lol. I see no problem with medding to regain mana. I absolutely see no problem with sitting and medding for greater mana recovery either.
Nothing I said suggested mana shouldn't be precious, nor did I say anything about instant. Do you truly think sitting down in the middle of combat makes sense or is at all fun? What if you had spells you could strategically make use of to recover your mana? Perhaps certain mana-efficient, but low throughput, spells you use for a "recovery phase", and once you've regenerated enough mana, you can go back to using your more expensive spells. Or perhaps there are cooldowns that return mana over time. Or certain spell combinations grant a mana regen buff when executed in the right order. Or... anything else besides just sitting down and waiting.
@Naunet As has been said on this in so many threads, alternatives to regain some mana like harvest for a class or eating special berries (per Joppa) is fine. If you reread what I said, greater mana recovery should require meditation. Otherwise you get a group in god-mode killing everything and then ultimately a dumb game. I've already seen your opinion on this in other threads, so I'm not going to respond on this anymore to you.
You've yet to convince me that sitting down in combat makes for compelling gameplay. Meanwhile, you continue to mischaracterize my own statements as somehow wanting to not have to think about mana regen.