I don't have any problem with a healer doing DPS but I rather it be because that healer is a unique class that heals through DPS instead of forcing all healers to DPS. Just like any other arch type you should have choices that fit you and they should all have their benefits. If you want to be just a pure healer, a warder, a hybrid healers who has some heals/DPS or a Healer who heals through DPS. Especially in a game with 6 group slots it leaves a lot of room to have all kinds of different group builds where healers might compliment each other.
I loved my Vanguard cleric......heavy armor and to keep my mana up I had to hit the mobs I could take down almost any warrior.....just took me an hour or so....Having to meditate to maintain mana was a large part of the strategy of any good old game.....it took time to do things and do your job.
Damacon said:I don't have any problem with a healer doing DPS but I rather it be because that healer is a unique class that heals through DPS instead of forcing all healers to DPS. Just like any other arch type you should have choices that fit you and they should all have their benefits. If you want to be just a pure healer, a warder, a hybrid healers who has some heals/DPS or a Healer who heals through DPS. Especially in a game with 6 group slots it leaves a lot of room to have all kinds of different group builds where healers might compliment each other.
This I completely agree with. I loved Warrior Priest in Warhammer Online. It was a great class that did combat and healing well. Its probably one of my favorite classes in any MMO I've ever played.
Naunet said: I want mana to be a resource that must be managed. I do not think "medding" should be the method used in that management. I want to be able to manage my mana through actual spells - e.g. a cooldown that regens mana over time; a temporary buff that when pressed makes spells free to cast for X seconds; a certain order to use abilities in to regen mana; mana-positive spells that trade off throughput for mana regen.
I think that in Pantheon you are going to see both of these things: Medding and Abilities that help you manage mana.
Take for example the Cleric system with Celestial Power. Some of the Cleric's abilities will generate Celestial Power. They can then use that Celestial Power to cast other abilities that do not cost mana. Once you reach a higher level of Celestial Power you gain a Celestial Bond which lowers the Celestial Power cost of abilities, so as long as you can keep your Celestial Bond active, this also helps you manage your resources. They also mention an 'Epic Ability' (you will likely need to go find it through adventuring) called: Celestial Focus which will let you gain Celestial Power too when you are Meditating. Which will help you keep your Celestial Bond up more often.
In the stream with HiveLeader playing a Cleric, he specifically mentions that once he figured out how this Celestial Power system worked, he was able to manage his mana consumption and regeneration a lot better and stopped going OOM during every pull.
Naunet said: @GoofyWarriorGuy: Thank you for that post! I really appreciate it. :) I definitely understand your point, however I do have one quibble. You seemed to suggest that the alternative to meditating was to go into every fight by just spamming your spells til you're OOM. That is not what I've been suggesting. I think spells can be designed so that mana (or any other resource) management can be woven into the gameplay and necessitate in-the-moment decision making on the player's part. I've seen this done to great effect before, and I would love to see Pantheon build on it and advance the realm of caster class design.
You are right... it isn't just about 'halting casting'.
Along with the Cleric system I already mentioned... I think VR is also wanting to create synergy effects with the support classes helping to maintain Mana regeneration. For example, the Enchanter has abilities that when used on an enemy will splash Mana to his group-mates. So as the Enchanter is able to DPS, he will actually be supporting the mana management of his group, thus allowing them to DPS more often (or Heal) rather than needing to Meditate or use their other systems to manage their mana. But in fights where the Enchanter is too focused on Crowd Controlling targets and is not able to use any of these Mana splashing abilities, this could hinder the groups mana management.
This of course adds another reason to have a support class in your group even if you don't expect to need a lot of crowd control.
It is absolutely possible to retain the effects of the current sit-to-med-during-combat system without the need for our characters to be actually sitting on the ground during a life or death scenario. In no other form of media have we seen casters just sit down at the feet of their comrades while they battle their foes in vicious combat just meters away. It's a ridiculous idea that's a carry-over only being seriously entertained because it was a mechanic in EQ. I refuse to believe that anyone desires their characters to be sitting on the floor because they genuinely think it's an inherently compelling mechanic. People like the consequences of that mechanic, i.e. having a method to help them regain mana in a game environment where resource management actually matters.
We can retain the positives of the need for resource management without the sitting. At the very least, in-combat medding can be altered to where characters are standing while medding, even though I'd argue such a solution still lacks the engaging class systems the devs have stated they desire to implement. I think an even better solution would be implementing a system where mana is managed via spells, and ideas on how such a system would work/look like have been readily offered in the numerous threads on this topic.
Naunet said:I don't think sitting should be a mechanic at all. Out of combat regen - sure. But why the need to sit? And definitely something that shouldn't be happening mid-combat. Combat should be engaging, and sitting (or "posing") is not engaging.
You're missing the entire point of medding. It's not supposed to be engaging in and of itself. It's suppsoed to be the stressful valley that you have to cross to get to the peak. You know another game where the players spend a significant portion of the time sitting? Chess. I don't think anyone would accuse chess of not being engaging just because the players spend time sitting. You can absolutely have a very engaging game with down time. The key is to have an appropriate amount of down time that doesn't become excessive. In chess, this is done with a timer that prevents players from taking all day to make a move. In Pantheon it will be up to both the developers to strike a balance in the design and the players to manage their group properly.
Chess come on! I understand your argument, but you can’t compare chess with a fighting sport like karate or judo. And how often did we speak on this board about realism. Sitting during a fight, a fight to death (!), isn't realistic.
On the other side, if we get spells for mana-fights, I bet we will discuss in combination with that the numerous of possible spells in our taskbar. :P
Realism is a separate argument. I'm talking about whether medding is a good gameplay mechanic. They've already shown a standing meditation animation for the cleric, so I'm not sure that the aesthetics of "sitting" is even an argument worth having TBH.
zoltar said:Realism is a separate argument. I'm talking about whether medding is a good gameplay mechanic. They've already shown a standing meditation animation for the cleric, so I'm not sure that the aesthetics of "sitting" is even an argument worth having TBH.
So then is it just the sitting animation that bothers you or the period of time where the caster is doing nothing in order to regenerate mana? If its the animation I don't really have a problem with altering it to fit into some realism or lore view. I want down time as a caster during and in between fights. I want a slower methodical paced combat system, not the button mashing that MMO's have turned into.
In a previous Tick mechanic thread I brought up an alternative to battle meditation and that was the concept of different stances for casters. The idea is that each of the three types of stances would have a different in game application.
The stances would be what dictated the auto actions of your characters after your active action each tick. Tactically you would be limited to a maximum of one active action per tick and could queue up several and "response" skills would cut in line and take the next available active action slot.
Movement would count as taking up the time spent doing the auto actions of your current stance but the instant active abilities would not take up the time. Casting time or charge up abilities would cut into the auto action time similar to movement.
Stances for casters:
Weapon attack stance
Gather Energy Stance
Gather Mana Stance
In a raid setting weapon attack would be used in the burn phases. Gather energy would be what is used in the tactical combat phase as you trigger different effects. Gather mana would by what you use during tactical movement phases while DPS is inadvisable. Additionally healers could move in shifts into and out of gather energy and gather mana stances to stay above a certain percentage while still keeping the added effects on their heals from gather energy.
I would view this concept as far superior to sitting on the ground with your nose in a book as a caster any time you are not actively casting. Outside of combat sitting and using Gather Mana could be how you refill your mana bar quickly between pulls after depleting most of it during a pull.
*edit* I really hate this message boards formating tools. Every time I try and fix formating it just makes it worse. WTB Pre-Alpha Updated boards for main boards *edit*
zoltar said: You know another game where the players spend a significant portion of the time sitting? Chess. I don't think anyone would accuse chess of not being engaging just because the players spend time sitting.
Playing chess vs a simulation of life-or-death medieval fantasy combat are two separate things that are not even close to being analogous. If anything, what would be fair (even though still somewhat ridiculous to draw comparisons to for the sake of this discussion) would be the acts of a player sitting down for a game of chess vs a player sitting down at their computer for a game which is simulating medieval fantasy combat.
Anyways, this discussion tends to have a problem where separating out the multiple layers proves difficult, but it's extremely important to do so. Currently, there are two separate points of contention with the current medding system:
At the very least, I would hope that the community can find agreement with the fact that the idea of sitting down during combat is both unrealistic and immersion-breaking, and that any form of in-combat mana regeneration should involve the character standing instead of sitting. Beyond that, I would hope we could then focus completely on the second point and discuss the concerns with the current medding system with a healthy discussion.
At the very least, I would hope that the community can find agreement with the fact that the idea of sitting down during combat is both unrealistic and immersion-breaking, and that any form of in-combat mana regeneration should involve the character standing instead of sitting. Beyond that, I would hope we could then focus completely on the second point and discuss the concerns with the current medding system with a healthy discussion.
Consider in a world where magic existed and in order to regain mana one must relax and meditate for a period of time, how would someone regain mana in combat? They'd have to risk life and limb by trusting their companions to keep them safe as they sit and meditate.
Does sitting in combat sound really dumb to us? Yes. Then again so does magic as it does not exist.
Does it break emersion? Only for those that haven't fully emersed themselves in the new world and have realized that their cleric has put their life in your hands to keep them safe as you've put your life in the cleric's hand to keep you safe by taking time to regain mana by sitting down. Or the wizard sitting down even though they have a quarter of their mana still available because they see a pather coming along and wants to make sure they have enough mana for an evac (if that's still a thing) ready just in case ____ hits the fan.
Maybe as players level they'd be able to stand and regain mana sligtly slower than sitting or something along those lines. Like the graduation for spell casters from EQ when they no longer had to have the book covering the while screen while they meditated.
tolliner said:Consider in a world where magic existed and in order to regain mana one must relax and meditate for a period of time, how would someone regain mana in combat? They'd have to risk life and limb by trusting their companions to keep them safe as they sit and meditate.Does sitting in combat sound really dumb to us? Yes. Then again so does magic as it does not exist.
Magic doesn't sound dumb to us, it's captivating and engaging and the foundation for countless stories throughout human history. And here's the thing, the only reason players have to sit down in combat right now is because of the amazing(/s) argument of "Well, EQ did it!"
It doesn't have to be that way, we can easily change the mechanics for meditation to not involve any sitting at all during combat. It's not a compelling or realistic mechanic, even in a world filled with magic. I've read countless fantasy stories, watched just as many different fantasy movies/shows, played 1000s of hours of fantasy games, none have even entertained the idea of a mage sitting down at the feet of their comrades during life-or-death combat occurring meters away, except for Everquest. Just because EQ did it, doesn't mean it's a good system. It's a game that had amazing ideas, but it also had its flaws. The act of sitting down during combat is one of those flaws.
What people truly like is the need for meaningful resource management, and are conflating that with the act of sitting on the ground. We can accomplish that meaningful resource management without the sitting. I truly believe we have the technology and creativity to accomplish that.
It's not very difficult to come up with ways to remove the silliness of sitting in combat to regenerate mana without removing the downtime aspect of it.
The most straightforward way to do it would be to remove the association of meditation with sitting, and just give every mana using class an ability 'meditate' that puts them in a standing pose, but visibly in a trance-like state (with closed eyes, arms resting at the sides or held in prayer, with subtle particle effects surrounding the character going inward to visualize their power returning to them). That alone would be enough to avoid breaking immersion. The character will still look vulnerable and not entirely in touch with their surroundings, but not as silly as sitting down while their party is being beset by orcs or something.
Another option would be to give enough classes abilities to restore mana to allies during combat. Such abilities can still be designed in such a way that the downtime aspect that the current meditation ability has remains part of the game. For example, a druid could have an ability that forms a cocoon around an ally for X seconds, and afterwards they come out with a certain amount of health and mana restored, but the cocoon doesn't make the target invulnerable and could be destroyed when attacked. Likewise, an Enchanter could place an ally or enemy in trance and also grant increased mana regeneration for the duration. Similar abilities could go to Bards, Clerics and Summoners. Any of the more support centric spellcasters.
Sicario said:It doesn't have to be that way, we can easily change the mechanics for meditation to not involve any sitting at all during combat. It's not a compelling or realistic mechanic, even in a world filled with magic. I've read countless fantasy stories, watched just as many different fantasy movies/shows, played 1000s of hours of fantasy games, none have even entertained the idea of a mage sitting down at the feet of their comrades during life-or-death combat occurring meters away, except for Everquest. Just because EQ did it, doesn't mean it's a good system. It's a game that had amazing ideas, but it also had its flaws. The act of sitting down during combat is one of those flaws.
Dragon Ball Z entertained the idea of a character not participating in a battle to gather enough power (mana) to unleash a devastating attack. While they where not "sitting" they did nothing but channel while their friends and allies kept the enemy busy. Some times this would take multiple episodes for them to complete gathering enough power. And that is about all I know of Dragon Ball Z.
As to the mechanic of gaining mana back...
There are a lot of ways a game can have mana replenish and each way is normally part of the combat mechanics that affects the play-style of a game. So first we have to figure out what play-style Pantheon is going for. We know Pantheon wants downtime between fights. So any ideas for regaining mana should keep this mechanic at its core. Secondly are we talking aesthetics only? Sitting next to a friend fighting is bad, posing Dragon Ball Z fashion is good (even though the same goal is attained)?
Chogar said:
Dragon Ball Z entertained the idea of a character not participating in a battle to gather enough power (mana) to unleash a devastating attack. While they where not "sitting" they did nothing but channel while their friends and allies kept the enemy busy. Some times this would take multiple episodes for them to complete gathering enough power. And that is about all I know of Dragon Ball Z.
As to the mechanic of gaining mana back...
There are a lot of ways a game can have mana replenish and each way is normally part of the combat mechanics that affects the play-style of a game. So first we have to figure out what play-style Pantheon is going for. We know Pantheon wants downtime between fights. So any ideas for regaining mana should keep this mechanic at its core. Secondly are we talking aesthetics only? Sitting next to a friend fighting is bad, posing Dragon Ball Z fashion is good (even though the same goal is attained)?
That's actually a pretty good pull there with the Dragon Ball Z. They did indeed have a meditation mechanic of sorts. Even then I think most people thought it was pretty silly and worth poking fun at.
As for meditation in Pantheon, I think we have some pretty varied opinions. For some, an aesthetic fix is perfectly adequate. For others, they like sitting. For others (like me), an updated mechanic would be preferable.
Kaeldorn said: ... The most straightforward way to do it would be to remove the association of meditation with sitting, and just give every mana using class an ability 'meditate' that puts them in a standing pose, but visibly in a trance-like state (with closed eyes, arms resting at the sides or held in prayer, with subtle particle effects surrounding the character going inward to visualize their power returning to them). That alone would be enough to avoid breaking immersion. ...
They have that, already, for gnomes and humans, at least: (That's a wizard, standing while meditating, in combat, from April 27, 2017)
The concerning part (for me) is that in the most recent videos, this hasn't been demonstrated.
vjek said:Kaeldorn said: ... The most straightforward way to do it would be to remove the association of meditation with sitting, and just give every mana using class an ability 'meditate' that puts them in a standing pose, but visibly in a trance-like state (with closed eyes, arms resting at the sides or held in prayer, with subtle particle effects surrounding the character going inward to visualize their power returning to them). That alone would be enough to avoid breaking immersion. ...They have that, already, for gnomes and humans, at least: (That's a wizard, standing while meditating, in combat, from April 27, 2017)
The concerning part (for me) is that in the most recent videos, this hasn't been demonstrated.
Ah ok, I hadn't seen that animation yet. That does look better than sitting, imo. Thanks for sharing.
I think that as soon as you sit, you should begin regaining HP and Mana. If you sit still for 30 seconds, you should begin regaining HP and mana at an enhanced rate.
Doing this would maintain the need to play the meta-game of managing mana and resources, but if you truely have downtime and need to recover, it would only take a few minutes to fully heal up.
bryanleo9 said: Tanks should have to "med" in the sense they must sit and rest to regain stamina. Too many games allows tanks and melee to fight non stop without needing a break.
I do not have 1st hand expereince; however, I do believe Dire Lords and Paladins will need to meditate. So 2 out of 3 tanks will need to med if that makes you fill better. :-)
There are many resources and mana is one of them. Time, cooldowns, and cast times are also resources. I think it's fine that different classes have different pacing and playstyles.
Hopefully there will also be some variation in gameplay depending on which skills you choose to use in combat. So you can choose to use some fast, big heal bomb spells and have to meditate to make up for it, or use small/slow heals constantly. There may also be spells that help you recover mana.
If the sitting animation is what's caught your ire, they've said that the animations will be updated. Hopefully each class will have a thematically appropriate mana regen stance.