Watemper said:^ You do realize, from the guy you quoted..aside from maybe achievements...none of those go against the core...I mean they probably won't add maps..or if they do they won't show locations, so other than that I don't see how that goes away from the core aspect of the game
We probably have different definitions of the phrase "core game". For me it means crafting, raiding, leveling and questing. For others it may exclude some or all of those and include roleplaying or socializing. In my view, at least, the social aspect comes from making friends with whom you do all that leveling and dungeon crawling. But I don't see collections, maps, farming mats or even achievements as being part of the "core game". I also don't expect VR to implement all that stuff; Those were just examples of things to do outside of the stresses of what I consider the core game.
I've been meaning to respond to this thread for a few days now but haven't had time to put my thoughts in order until now.
At a high level, for me it comes down to presenting players with a world to experience, rather than a game.
Having a bunch of monsters to fight and dungeons to explore and quests to solve is fun, and an important part of the experience, but it's still just a game. Whether it's done by yourself or with friends, whether it's three months worth of content or three years, if that's all there is to do, you really have no reason to interact with other players outside of combat-related goals. That's not a world.
A world is the place where adventurers live in between their adventures.
A world is the place where you can hand that strange glowing rock you found in the dungeon to a player blacksmith, and she can make something really awesome for you with it. It's a place where those ruins you find aren't just set dressing, but are instead a place of historical significance where the council of races still meets twice a year. It's a place where you can spend a day just hanging around with other players competing in horse races, or where you can spend hours trying to decipher clues on a treasure map.
Worlds are built on shared experiences and interactions. Group combat is certainly one, and it's a big one. But there MUST be others - as many as make sense and can reasonably be fit in. They don't have to all be big. They can be little things, like completing collections of different colored leaves that you find on the ground. But what they all do is give players other reasons to log in and interact with each other beyond just clearing a boss or finishing a quest. They bring life to what would otherwise eventually become a stale experience.
Even if you just build a really big MMO with lots of different things for players to do, of course, it's still ultimately just a game pretending to be a world. Unless, of course, you can implement ways for players to change the virtual world permanently through their actions - to create dynamically changing conditions and through that, be their own content. Either way though, the MMO that has adventuring, dungeons, raiding, crafting, harvesting, social venues, rich emote support, in-world minigames, collections, diplomacy, bounty hunts, achievements, pets, collaborative projects, guild achievements and rankings, and the kitchen sink will retain players a lot longer than one that only has adventuring and dungeons with a side of raiding. At least, assuming that everything is all implemented to the same level of quality.
Nephele said:Worlds are built on shared experiences and interactions. Group combat is certainly one, and it's a big one. But there MUST be others - as many as make sense and can reasonably be fit in. They don't have to all be big. They can be little things, like completing collections of different colored leaves that you find on the ground. But what they all do is give players other reasons to log in and interact with each other beyond just clearing a boss or finishing a quest. They bring life to what would otherwise eventually become a stale experience.
Excellent post, as usual from you. :)
Akilae said:Watemper said:^ You do realize, from the guy you quoted..aside from maybe achievements...none of those go against the core...I mean they probably won't add maps..or if they do they won't show locations, so other than that I don't see how that goes away from the core aspect of the game
We probably have different definitions of the phrase "core game". For me it means crafting, raiding, leveling and questing. For others it may exclude some or all of those and include roleplaying or socializing. In my view, at least, the social aspect comes from making friends with whom you do all that leveling and dungeon crawling. But I don't see collections, maps, farming mats or even achievements as being part of the "core game". I also don't expect VR to implement all that stuff; Those were just examples of things to do outside of the stresses of what I consider the core game.
Well anything that players can think of outside of the core I don't think is the problem. I do that a lot. Even in EQ I had collections and stuff. What I am talking about, and others, are enforced mechanics or things they have to program into the game to appease other people that aren't part of that core. Like Battle pets in WoW. That isn't really at all part of the core game..although there are many things in WoW that aren't, but that is one of them.
Anything player driven is one thing, anything programmed into the game, like battle pets, achievements, stuff like that, is another. I am talking about the latter.
Something I have learned in the past year is that even though I personally could care less about achievements, there are *many* players who find them to be a primary motivation to log in and keep playing. Before that, I would say things like "Why do games spend so much time on these pointless achievement systems?" Now thought I'm like "Eh, not my thing really, but you do you." It doesn't actually impact my game experience if there's achievements or not in most games, and people seem to really enjoy them, so why not?
Partly because of this learning, I think there's a danger in us saying something isn't important to the player experience and shouldn't be included.
Instead, I think what we should be saying is: It's ok if the game has it as long as it fits in well with the rest of the experience.
Which is to say, that achievement systems are probably ok as long as they don't do things like causing a mariachi band to spawn in world and play a song for everyone nearby (or spam everyone's chat channels whenever someone completes one.
We should all keep in mind that everyone has different things that really motivate them to invest time in the game, which is what we want. If it's possible to add something that helps motivate people to play, and that makes sense in the context of the fantasy world we inhabit, what's the harm really?
PS: I stopped playing WoW so many years ago that I wouldn't understand "Battle Pets" if one jumped up and licked me in the face. BUT, experience in other games tells me that pet systems aren't necessarily a bad thing, as long as they can be implemented in a way that rewards people who enjoy them and does not penalize people who would rather spend their time differently.
Watemper said:^ There are also things that are put into the game that people dislike and others may like.
Just because you like something doesn't mean it should be in the game.
Don't forget the corollary:
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it should be excluded from the game.