Well I was wondering what people thought about adding all these different types of things you can do separately from the core design of the game.
Is there such a thing as too much? To little? The right balance if there is one?
I know there are things you can do in MMOs that complement each other, like crafting and killing mobs, and some stuff added seems more forced into the core than others, like WoW battle pets, but I have recently been thinking about what people say when as long as it doesn't effect your gameplay then it shouldn't matter what other people do type of lines I have been seeing. So I have been thinking about it on a more macro playing field rather than a micro playing field and decided why not just see what other people think?
My take right now is that the more outside concepts put into the game the more it may acutally effect the core gameplay and effect the community, and possibly change the community overall. You start to see different groups that don't interact with people, kind of like the PVE group and PVP group, and even RP groups to a degree. Not saying that is a bad thing, but the more you add I would think the more fragemented the community becomes. Still thinking about it right now, but thought I would bring this up as to what people think about constantly adding different, not quite new, types of things to do in an MMO that more or less doesn't fit the core aspect of the game?
Not really talking about the QOL type of mechanics either, although they can play a part in this.
I consider crafting part of the core design. Many of us do and would play a game with no crafting at all very reluctantly if at all.
The basic concept is simple - anything that isn't part of the core design should take a secondary position unless it is considered important in selling the game. Bells and whistles are nice but schedule them for an expansion or update rather than diverting significant resources and weakening the core game noticably. Or delaying release significantly.
I think this discussion would go a lot better if focused on specific possibilities I am not at all sure what you mean. You mention battle pets but generally only pet classes have combat pets and how they use them is *very* much part of the core class design. Or are you thinking of having pets fight in an arena in which case my reaction would be a single word. No.
Housing is a classic case of something that many think is important but that most do not think of as "core" and that often is introduced after release. As you, of course, know there is a different thread quite active on that let us discuss housing there not here.
Well to expand on Battle pets I guess...in World of Warcraft your pets that follow you now have levels and abilities. So it's kind of like a janky pokemon where you can roster 3 pets of differenty types and abilities and fight other people with them. Lol...so that is what I meant by something that is a little out there in terms of what WoW is.
Edit: Also, I never mentioned housing did I..I am looking on a macro scale and not specific...
No you didn't mention housing at all - I did as something I considered a non-core element of a MMO.
I have no use for playing a mini-Pokemon game in Pantheon but perhaps others will though I suspect the most common reaction will be that it is too WoW-like and not serious enough for an "old school" game. And the resources can best be spent on other things. But I have been wrong before and almost surely will be again.
I'm all in for micro games, but not to the point they seem out of pace (like Wow's mascots....). Harvesting, crafting, are mini games. Housing why not, diplomacy ? Some people seemed to really like it's card system. The thing is : The game shouldn't be played for thoses soles reasons and they shouldn't draw away too much dev timer from the main focus.
I don't, myself, have much ideas in thoses. I'm not looking into MMO's for them and usually if they end up beeing mandatory, they turn a small game into a chore you have to pass throught (Example : The farm in Mists of Pandaria). However fun is a very subjective thing and what is my butter is probably someone else's kryptonite, however since the game is advertising for a public, I wouldn't counsel to make minigames too far from the adventuring sphere.
I can agree that PVE, PVP, and RP groups might find themselves isolated by their particular type of gameplay from the other two spheres (if you will).
But EQ card game players, or WoW battle pet players? Do those players really only log in to do those things, or are those simple side activities for the PVE,PVP, RP groups to simply find common ground?
Possibly an Auction House could pull someone away from the PVE/PVP/RP pursuits. Any more thoughts as to what other side pursuits might actually keep someone from the main spheres?? Does it do a disservice to the community if someone sits all day managing sales to facilitate the PVE/PVP/RP play?
Without being specific to one system here is my point of view.
There are times when we see things implemented post launch that are/were good ideas and they fail because the players never fully grab onto them and realize their full potential. This is why its important that if you want to see something implemented into the core of the game you need to do it as early as possibly at launch or within the first few expansions.
There are also times when something that was implemented becomes a redundant system and just causes confusion. There are a lot of good ideas for systems and if they are implemented early and correctly it can be a real positive to a game. I think the main thing is when something is just slapped together in a rush and not really thought out properly is where the trouble starts.
Sure there are times when something gets implemented and after it tested and vetted thoroughly it is decided that it was too much or too little. In the grand scale of things it is situation as to if something is "Too Much". I think every game finds its own balance, but things are constantly being tweaked and improved so its hard to say what that balance is conceptually.
And you will always have a community rift between PVE and PVP players. Thats just a given. People that RP find their own niche to hang out in usually.
Yea I do think the danger of implementing a system that doesn't fit early on is that is will dis enchant a good portion of the community and that over hype we all have will be met with low expectations with systems in place we don't like. On the other hand if they add in different systems later on...even if they might be good...it might have a negative effect on people wondering what slipery slope they are going to go down if it keeps up.
I am remembered of the AA system in EQ. It was very good for horizontal progression, however a lot of MMOs don't have things like that so they add "themepark" type of systems that over time may cause people to not like the game.
I guess that is why I bring up the onion game design philosophy where you have your core game mechanics, and then you have to decide what layer to add next that is closest to that core principle..and doesn't go too far off..and so forth.
My view is very different from that of SoWplz.
I do not want to do the same thing over and over not because I love it so much but because there isn't a blessed thing to do in the game other than that.
I do not play with real life friends and people in whatever guild I join may not be on, or may be doing things in other places or at different levels.
Sure grouping to ...kill stuff ..... is good but I would much prefer other things to do as well. Crafting, cosmetics, housing, pets all add diversity to waiting to find a group, getting together with the group and killing stuff.
Then again I admit I am not a supporter of killing stuff as the way to progress in a MMO. One of the ways certainly but quests and tasks also add variety and purpose to hours of mind numbing killing of the same persecuted mobs over and over.
I like having a lot of choices of things to do in game as long as it somehow relates to the same goal of growing your character. Like crafting will make your character grow, so will exploring, killing, etc. One problem I have with those pet battles is really they don't have any impact on your character other than more pets and cosmetic titles. Now I'm not saying pet battles should effect your character that way, just that they don't so its something that takes the player out of following a "unified path" of doing things that all lead to making your character stronger. It sort of removes you from the MMO part of the game and is very solo-oriented.
I think they are already far down a slippery slope of trying way too hard to make up new things to attract players. I hope I'm wrong.
Well.... EQ1 did have GEMS! For those that remember that microgame.
So having microgames is nothing new.
Haha wow I do remember the gems minigame...Still doesn't change whether that is considered a good thing or a bad thing.
@alisera I like how you said unified path. I do believe and MMO should achieve this. The upside is a stronger community, the downside is you will alienate players who want certain things that don't fit in the mold of the ideals of w/e MMO goes down that path.
Naunet said:There absolutely needs to be more to do in an MMO than just slay mobs and craft/gather. A big one for me is always farming armor appearances for costuming - that can keep me entertained and engaged for years, so long as there is a way to store appearances.
As long as we can toggle your personalized armor appearances off so we can tell what gear you are wearing without having to inspect you.
Watemper said:^ Doesn't that usually entail slaying mobs or relying on crafters...And the quested armor is usually slaying mobs also.
Yeah, but it's more than just grinding your stats higher and higher, is my point. Not everyone is motivated to play a game for stats, so IMO there needs to be activities and goals out there beyond just building up your character's stats.
philo said:As long as we can toggle your personalized armor appearances off so we can tell what gear you are wearing without having to inspect you.
A-okay in my book.
Watemper said:Well I was wondering what people thought about adding all these different types of things you can do separately from the core design of the game.
Is there such a thing as too much? To little? The right balance if there is one?
I know there are things you can do in MMOs that complement each other, like crafting and killing mobs, and some stuff added seems more forced into the core than others, like WoW battle pets, but I have recently been thinking about what people say when as long as it doesn't effect your gameplay then it shouldn't matter what other people do type of lines I have been seeing. So I have been thinking about it on a more macro playing field rather than a micro playing field and decided why not just see what other people think?
My take right now is that the more outside concepts put into the game the more it may acutally effect the core gameplay and effect the community, and possibly change the community overall. You start to see different groups that don't interact with people, kind of like the PVE group and PVP group, and even RP groups to a degree. Not saying that is a bad thing, but the more you add I would think the more fragemented the community becomes. Still thinking about it right now, but thought I would bring this up as to what people think about constantly adding different, not quite new, types of things to do in an MMO that more or less doesn't fit the core aspect of the game?
Not really talking about the QOL type of mechanics either, although they can play a part in this.
I personally think that there can be too much of ANYTHING. For such a long time, I always thought of things that would be very cool and some very popular ideas. Now, with so many people playing games, I don't believe that one of them was exactly original. However, the thing about that is I feel like adding too many things spreads players too thin. I can only speak for myself and the people who have agreed with me on this over the years. But let me provide some examples.
World of Warcraft is by far the prime example of a game I feel has put far too much into the game. As well as the game that actually implemented some of the ideas I had back in the Burning Crusade days.
1) Transmogification. Ever since... I think Teir 3 came out, maybe Teir 4, I wanted my Teir 1 and/or Teir 2 look back. Especially on my Warlock and Paladin. Then BAM, they finally did it. At first I was extremely happy. And I still don't nescessarily hate it, but it really loses it's luster / "specialness" when you see every other person in the same thing. This is where I learned that I actually really appreciate looking like a jackass for so long, until the time comes when I look like a BEAST! Getting my full set of amazing looking gear, so I can run around the newbie areas and be worshiped. ;P But in all seriousness. It really does put a special meaning and true sense of accomplishment to what you've earned, rather than paying "X" amount of gold to look cool or imposing.
2) Pet Battles. When pets were put into the game, I wanted my Mini Diablo to fight every other pet and dominate. If you stood idle long enough, he would do a cool animation. This is what gave me the idea for pet battles. Then one day, BAM! Pet Battles were put in. I discovered, it was very lack luster. It turned out to be one of those ideas that looked good on paper and sounded good when I would talk to others about it. But was just "meh". Maybe it was done wrong, maybe not... All I can tell is that after my first hour of doing it. I completely lost interest.
3) Achievement Hunting. I am going to get heat for this one I'm sure. But keep in mind, I'm speaking for myself here. Achievement hunting always felt more like a grind, like anything else. Nothing ever felt like a true achievement. Most of the time, it was get a overly geared group and go get the achievement... Yeah...
4) Daily Quests. This was an idea that I had after the AQ cloth turn ins. I believe that Blizzard put this in to help combat the gold farmers as well as something for players who had all their preraid / raiding best in slot items. Just to have something to do until the next raid or expansion.
I'm sure I could find a few more things from other games as well. But my whole point is, I hope that they really focus on the core aspects of the game. Instead of putting in all these... time fillers? What I thought were great ideas that came to fruition, just left me with a feeling of "I could be doing something productive right now." When I get to the point I need little minigames inside of the actual game to keep me interested, I should just move on to greener pastures. One reason why I am so excited for this, is that they don't seem to have any real desire to do things like adding "time fillers". It's all old school. That is what is for me!
I like having a lot of non-core things to do. Some nights I don't feel like raiding or even grouping so I'll do things like:
* Explore and open up as much of the map as possible
* Wander the map looking for "shinies" to complete my collections
* Pick an achievement and go try to do that
* Harvest materials for crafting
* Scour the market, search for vendors or farm the right critters to complete a "social" appearance set
And so forth. I'm an explorer and a completionist (and a hardcore raider) so having lots of things to do, even if they have little to no impact on the core progression gives a game a future for me. Despite being a completionist, once I complete something I get bored with it. A game that will hold my attention is one with more than one thing to do. Unfinished things keep me coming back.
Accessdenied said:1) Transmogification. Ever since... I think Teir 3 came out, maybe Teir 4, I wanted my Teir 1 and/or Teir 2 look back. Especially on my Warlock and Paladin. Then BAM, they finally did it. At first I was extremely happy. And I still don't nescessarily hate it, but it really loses it's luster / "specialness" when you see every other person in the same thing. This is where I learned that I actually really appreciate looking like a jackass for so long, until the time comes when I look like a BEAST! Getting my full set of amazing looking gear, so I can run around the newbie areas and be worshiped. ;P But in all seriousness. It really does put a special meaning and true sense of accomplishment to what you've earned, rather than paying "X" amount of gold to look cool or imposing.
I don't think I'll ever understand this argument. xD Wardobe systems let you distinguish your character from others. You say you're worried about everyone looking the same, but before Blizzard implemented Transmog, everyone in WoW looked the same. Now they do not. As for a sense of accomplishment - no wardrobe system has ever let you unlock appearances that you didn't earn. Sense of accomplishment preserved. If you see someone with an appearance - either the actual gear, or wardrobed - you know they earned that item.
^ Well...I know in WoW I see usually around the same 3 tier sets among classes being used. As for what he was trying to get at. Not everyone looked the same. Back in classic WoW having full tier 2 was impressive. Full tier 2.5 was impressive. Maybe the top 5% of each server had these. If you look at Naxx(40) only 1% of the population of WoW completed it. Even less with full tier 3.
What he is trying to get at is getting the current era gear and being recognized by the peices he is wearing as being accomplished. If I see someone in full tier 3 right now in BFA there is a good chance that that person transmog farmed it. Is that earning it...yea...but earning your current era pieces are way more significant than going back to raids you can solo and farm for certain pieces.
Akilae said:I like having a lot of non-core things to do. Some nights I don't feel like raiding or even grouping so I'll do things like:
* Explore and open up as much of the map as possible
* Wander the map looking for "shinies" to complete my collections
* Pick an achievement and go try to do that
* Harvest materials for crafting
* Scour the market, search for vendors or farm the right critters to complete a "social" appearance set
And so forth. I'm an explorer and a completionist (and a hardcore raider) so having lots of things to do, even if they have little to no impact on the core progression gives a game a future for me. Despite being a completionist, once I complete something I get bored with it. A game that will hold my attention is one with more than one thing to do. Unfinished things keep me coming back.
^This
Sometimes, you just need something else to do, as endless grinding (while awesome) tends to grow tedious over time. Gems in EQ1 was a silly little way to kill some time. in EQ2 it would be trying to knock out acheivements, maybe waiting for various rotating events to come around to do some limited-in-time content. Completing collections was fun. Trying to maximize your broker's wares, etc.
In EQ2 I even got into the trading card game, and that turned out to be a ton of fun when I wanted to take a break from the game. It was a clever way to keep me from wandering from the franchise as well. Instead of playing another game, I played the trading card game, which even offered some house goodies for EQ2. It is also a great way to offer micro-transactions that don't affect the actual game at all, but allows a great revenue stream for VR while at the same time keeping the customer engaged in the product. I would be 100% on board if VR added a tcg at some point after launch. I would definitely spend way too much on booster packs.
^ You do realize, from the guy you quoted..aside from maybe achievements...none of those go against the core...I mean they probably won't add maps..or if they do they won't show locations, so other than that I don't see how that goes away from the core aspect of the game