Flapp: "I look for this game to never see it's first expansion. Unless the game can be sustained with a 10,000 player base because that's where it will be 1 year into the game. "
Actually they have a a sustainable foundation at 20,000. Which isn't hard to get. They said that in an interview. So have no fear flapp. Also, WoW sucked at cataclysm. Also, you can't really call the raids and mythics tough because they require gear, and if your rng on gear sucks, then you won't get far no matter how much skill you have. I can be perfect at my rotations all I want, but if I don't have the gear to back up my dps, then I pretty much can't do it. So, if WoW wasn't gear dependent then way more people would probably be doing mythics right now.
The wait for the game is the meta game. Can you survive?
PS: I had a pretty good laugh at the (future) sub numbers stated as if they were fact. Tell you what.... i will call that bluff and when the numbers are compared (in the future) i will have another good laugh. I wont remember your name by then, but i’ll remember the numbers.
Flapp said:bobwinner said:WoW has ruined the MMO genre by making it fast-food style.
It's time to go back to the roots.
Not picking on You Bob, but I see this crap everywhere in these boards. WoW is a killer game. it just isn't made to make the grind the highlight of the game. WoW STARTS at END GAME.
5 mans. raids. Mythic raids are Not easy. People love to say wow is EZ. Leveling is easy, you are basically using leveling as a tutorial for How to play your character.
Just because a game is designed to Not be EQ or Vanguard doesn't automatically make it a bad game. WoW did have 13 million subs at one time. How many do you think this game will have after this initial launch? I would bet money this game starts with about 90K subs and is down to 30K subs 90 days after release. Does THAT mean it's a bad game?
GW2 is awesome. Elder Scrolls Online is UP to 11 million subs. Killer game. Star Wars: The Old Republic is an awesome game. etc. etc. In other words, just because a game isn't the same "formula" as Eq1, doesn't mean the game sucks, or is easy, or is made for children.
Heck, if I had my way, we'd have AH, Flying, and Land mounts just like WoW, but we wouldn't have an instanced 5 man and raid LFR. Kind of a best of both worlds. Want me to group with you, but you are 6 miles away in the game. Take a flight path and GET there so we can group and have fun. You can mix old and new and still have something awesome.
Some of you that still have a nostalgia hang-over will regret having Nothing from modern games. wait and see. Shouting for a group for two hours and getting nothing isn't fun any more. One a game with so few people and guilds, that Will happen. a Lot. and in a game were solo and quests are shunned as being a wow clone, you will have nothing to do.
I look for this game to never see it's first expansion. Unless the game can be sustained with a 10,000 player base because that's where it will be 1 year into the game.
You should really not mix active subs, account created and self made stats.
Most of the game you listed aren't even mmo anymore. Online rpg at most, with instancing/sharding everywhere. What's massively multiplayer about a game that can't even match two friends that are on their respective friendlist, same guilds, and grouped up all the time in the same instance of an area ?
What is multiplayer in a game you click to be matchmaked with random people only to play solo during the whole thing ?
Yuck.
Short-term-ism is a disease ravaging every aspect of society these days. A sustainable, long-term view for anything seems mystifyingly to be ignored or even reviled. We are definitely suffering for it and the eventual realisation and return to more forward-thinking values will be painful.
There is, however, a difference to impatience and intolerance of unnecessary inconvenience, especially in the gaming world.
Everyone here is typing away on a modern, convenient device to make their voice heard. No one is writing letters to VR because it's more satisfying. A lot of the old-school aspects some players would have us return to in MMORPGs are akin to doing away with this forum and returning hobbiests to writing letters, receiving just a monthly (or less) newsletter and attending a yearly meeting (if you can).
It's a tricky line to walk, but VR will have to sort the gently-paced and satisfying from the laborious and tedious while avoiding the gratifying-yet-reductive.
Anyone 30+ today (myself included) will be used to many inconveniences that many under-30's will not tolerate = perceived impatient.
Parascol said:It sounds to me like he got ganked because of it too. He got impatient, gave up his position, and the more patient archer got his BOOM HEADSHOT. Ironically, camping is a tactic used in all PvP games that require a degree of patience and it's always a source of controversy.
As far as patience in general, I think we live in an age of abundance and instant gratification, which is at least partly responsible for a more general societal shift toward lower patience and lack of attention spans. I think games are basically just reacting to this. The conveniences of technology is permeating all aspect of our lives.
Think about cell phones and how we're all glued to them 24/7. We are basically plugged into the interwebz every waking moment of our lives. Do any of you ever go camping, or somewhere abroad that doesn't have cell service, and just really love and appreciate that period of being disconnected? I do. This is how I envision Pantheon. Let's slow down and just appreciate the world and the people around us. :)
I also see this lack of patience getting worse over the years in myself. If my DVR suddenly doesn't work, or if I struggle with some poor UI or software issue, I get annoyed in seconds. Maybe that's part of aging. Maybe I'm turning into my grandparents who didn't want to learn how to 'program' an iPhone. :)
If you don't watch the video the 10 second statement can be taken out of context in so many ways. I was just using it as the example of how I hear gamers today. Specially in MMO's. In every MMO I've played the impatience and need "to hurry it up" out weighs the calm and collected mentally. When I was younger and at the top of my game when playing games I was extremely competitive. Now I'm the complete opposite. I just play to have fun. I'm the guy that strolls when he walks and cruises when he drives, why hurry? It only leads to mistakes. I have never been an impatient person so that is certainly part if it. I got off facebook and all social media outside of instagram where I share images of my art. I bring my phone as a tool, but rarely look at it because why do I need to once I've established my destination. When I travel abroad I rent a car and roam. I avoid the tourist tours and opt to explore on my own. Getting lost is part of my plan as long as I have enough fuel to get me back to my starting point. For myself, games are a virtual version of that so I explore and soak it up. I'm not in a hurry to miss it all only to see the end.
I agree with you. Not many people stop to look around anymore...to stop and smell the roses as the saying goes. The world is in a sad little hurry. I am guilty of impatience only in that I want this game to come out, but I can wait. :D
“‘I wish it need not have happened in my time,’ said Frodo.
‘So do I,’ said Gandalf, ‘and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
bobwinner said:Flapp said:WoW STARTS at END GAME.
Thank you for supporting my point.
That was much more true in EQ (from Kunark and later) than WoW though so it's moot.
We have seen multiple people argue that high end WoW was as difficult, or more difficult, than EQ. I don't see why it really matters? It usually is brought up because the general consensus is that WoW is quite easy so when it is mentioned some people get defensive. They don't like that the game they played heavily is considered to be the easy one.
It doesn't further the discussion and tends to derail it. (kind of like these few posts here)
@bobwinner
WoW didn't kill the mmo genre.. what has killed it is greed. Trying to get the biggest audiences and listening to demanding players that wanted to play but didn't really have the time to play a mmo. Blizzard changed the status quo out of greed. Let me say this.. our (EQ styled players) are now the minority out there. We'll never be listened too nor catered if a mmo is primarily monetary based. It that simple. Mass market games are like this.. where money is king.
I think there is a big difference between patience and something like instant gratification. Making things take longer just for the sake of being longer doesnt necessarily improve the gameplay. Theres a thread on this right now about longer not necessarily being harder.
I'm admittedly not a patient person... but I dont mind waiting 15 spawn cycles for a named to pop. What I dont like is waiting 6 hours for a ground spawn for a quest.
If theres things to do, while you're spending time "waiting" I have no issues with this. Even when playing classic wow, the respawn timer for mobs is generally 5 mins, i dont mind waiting 5 mins for something. But anything longer... what's the point?
Patience. There are those who would deem it worthy.
I know not how much time had passed. Hours, turned into what seemed like days, and then weeks. Working my way through the ever frosted peaks of ice, I would work my way through the caves of blue ice, passed the bears and the wolves, taking care to steer clear of the giants of blue and the spiders of white, such a harsh land it was. The cold, such chilling cold, the fire that crackled in front of me seemed to offer no heat at all, the fire itself would not melt the surrounding mountains of ice. Surely by the time the sickly looking goblin alchemist spawned and and dropped the Mammoth Hide Cloak that my Druid had been so desparately wanting, I had been awakened by my wife several times at my keyboard over the what seemed to be month long camp. But once I had "it", "it" was mine, all mine. The item, not even visable when worn was such an achievement, given to me by ME! There was no other item that I was so proud to have (at the time of course).
Yes, the above item was not all that fancy, but it was indeed "rare" for that little rat bastard did not drop it all that often and he was the only one who could, and everyone wanted one. Once in the room, we would never leave. After a long nights camp, I would log my character right there and hope to find that when I returned maybe by chance no one would be there. It is what makes us breathe, our blood pump through our veins. We live for this.
Porygon said:I think there is a big difference between patience and something like instant gratification. Making things take longer just for the sake of being longer doesnt necessarily improve the gameplay. Theres a thread on this right now about longer not necessarily being harder.
I'm admittedly not a patient person... but I dont mind waiting 15 spawn cycles for a named to pop. What I dont like is waiting 6 hours for a ground spawn for a quest.
If theres things to do, while you're spending time "waiting" I have no issues with this. Even when playing classic wow, the respawn timer for mobs is generally 5 mins, i dont mind waiting 5 mins for something. But anything longer... what's the point?
If you mean is there a difference between patience and impatience? Yes. You sound at least reasonable, but this isn't just about making things take longer. This is about people being obnoxiously impatient.
Games have clearly changed in the last two decades, but so have people. The fact that the CDC shows an increase in people diagnosed with ADHD is solid proof that people have changed. This could be a reason why so many more gamer are so impatient, aggressive, excitable, fidgeting, hyperactive, and irritabile while playing games. Its not an excuse, but a potential reason.
Competition certainly gets people riled up as well, but its much deeper than that. All you have to do is play any MMO these days and you'll immediately come across some players rushing from quest to quest or in a dungeon pushing you to ..HURRY UP!. As if this behavior wasn't bad enough, without skipping a beat, they instantly turn rude blaming you for all of this. Talking to a complete stranger they have no problem saying things like "LEARN TO PLAY YOUR CLASS DUMBASS" or " GET BETTER PLEB". That's if they stick around at all. Many times they just leave because you weren't keeping up with them. They don't talk, they just run through the dungeon as if you weren't even there excepting you to do what they want. This is specifically problematic in WoW. The que dungeon system have turned a once very fun experince in WoW to a grotesque carnival of impatient assholes. Sad.
Bronsun said:I hear so many comments on the forums advocating faster this or faster that. Everythng from travel to cool downs. In this video, this guy (whoever he is ) seems to lack the exact thing so many MMO and game players lack today... PATIENCE. In this clip he literally acts like 10 seconds is a life time, ten whole seconds. Really? Maybe, just maybe, lighten up on the energy drinks and take a breath. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyfwDvvk9Yg&feature=youtu.be&t=275
Sadly, this will be one the things that makes players love or hate Pantheon. Its a problem in society in general these days, but it certainly has no place in an MMO like Pantheon, and I wouldn't want to see too much sped up to accommodate this impatience.
So what are your thoughts? Are you a rabbit or a turtle? Do you like things slow and steady or would you like them fast, fast, fast?
Obviously, I like slow and steady.
I dont think that link is to someone playing this game. /sarcasmoff
If you are playing international football you expect to be running about constantly. If you are playing American football, you expect to play really hard for 10 seconds then stop for 30 seconds. So comparing games is not informative, particularly when you are using someone who likley will not choose to play this game to represent people that may be playing this game incorrectly. (This is to say, that video was meaningless for the purposes used.)
Many people have indeed voiced not wanting a tedious game, I am one of them. Spending 20 minutes in a group to kill a single trash mob would seem tedious, in my opinion. You disagree, fine. I will not disparage you, as you do me. Slow progression is fine with me if it is fun. I, and others, argue much of what is proposed on the forums is not fun, it is tedious. If I can choose between being bored playing a game, or being bored on a second job like security and make some extra money, I suppose I would work. At least then I could take the money I made for the 200 hours I worked and spend a week in Greece which for me is more rewarding than making it from level 6 to level 7.
The point I am making, and others who are like-minded, is that many of the low play proponents talk about making this game a tedious soul-crushing grindfest (ECT, I'm thinking of you) for what I believe are unrealist reasons. They are hoping to force people that do not like to grind or group to become their new friends.
This does not make me a slave to instant gratification. I played Vanguard and had Epics on 3 toons in a non-hardcore guild. I played Star Wars Galaxies and had a Jedi pre-village (pub 9.) I have played (and revisit) LOTRO which takes 15 minutes to travel almost anywhere even with quick travel. Maybe you do not know what any of that means, but for those that do, none of them is not slow.
I group with my guildies on any content. I would group with them on solo countent 20 levels below mine. In vangaurd we would group to harvest. I group with them because i like hanging with them. If travelling to them will take 45 minutes, I am MUCH more likely to log then make them wait. By time I got there someone would likely need to leave. So I get to choose between succumbing to someones travel extortion racket or trying to catch up with them the next day. I hate more than anything else in a team setting to feel like I am a drag on a group.
Someone spending half the time they are able to play waiting on me because people want to get rich exploiting crap travel is unteneble. Some because I play games to, you know, have fun - niave I know. Much is because when i lag behind, which I rarely do since I am such a grinder, if there is no way to catch up, I will likley go play Fallout 5.
Different people have different opinions on how long different things should take. Disparaging them or misrepresenting them does nothing but make you feel better, if that.
In all honesty I have no idea. Wildstar was so stinking fast and I LOVED LOVED LOVED that speed. EQ is slow as a turtle but I remember enjoying it a lot. I jumped into EQ reborn just to dabble boxing a cleric and a rogue and Im finding that old bag of a bones to be a lot of fun. I just want the game to be fun and for the servers to be not so dead that it doesnt feel like an MMO.
I miss the downtown in MMO's, it gave me time to get to know my groupmates and develop real relationships. It's like how we had to communicate in the real world, unlike today where communication is done with likes and the least amount of characters possible. Then on top of this having an actual threat of loss in character death leading to corpse runs and a significant amount of xp loss created memorable moments with these people you develop relationships with.
I absolutely hate what WoW did to my favorite game genre, it popularized it which means it sterilized it and accommodated the lowest common denominator so the most amount of people would be attracted to it. And top on the list that had to change to popularize it was take out downtime and negative experiences to make it feel like the player is constantly accomplishing things when they have actually done nothing.
Corpse Runs, lots of grinding (faction and xp), Hell levels, long spawn timers, etc. "That sounds horrible, I have work in real life. I play games to have fun". Some form of that is what I hear quite a lot and is what shapes MMO's today. I see these things as opportunities to get to know people, make every encounter important, and dangerous (not just End Game ones).
I’m just an old fart gamer at this point missing how things used to be in the early days of MMO’s, but I hope Pantheon can at least bring back some of the things I liked from back then.
philo said:bobwinner said:Flapp said:WoW STARTS at END GAME.
Thank you for supporting my point.
That was much more true in EQ (from Kunark and later) than WoW though so it's moot.
We have seen multiple people argue that high end WoW was as difficult, or more difficult, than EQ. I don't see why it really matters? It usually is brought up because the general consensus is that WoW is quite easy so when it is mentioned some people get defensive. They don't like that the game they played heavily is considered to be the easy one.
It doesn't further the discussion and tends to derail it. (kind of like these few posts here)
Let's please remember that a few devs from EQ moved over and worked on Wow...so some things here and there were relatively the same. Wow simplified things (in Vanilla Wow at least) they are what they are. Everquest was first however. :) Eq launched in 1998, Wow in 2004, Vanguard in 2007, Lotro in 2007...have played those and many more. Everquest style play appeals to me best, with Vanguard a very close second. Did play SWG..had a Master Elder dancer there, and DAOC...loved the Old Frontiers (pvp).
Cana
Bronsun said:I hear so many comments on the forums advocating faster this or faster that. Everythng from travel to cool downs. In this video, this guy (whoever he is ) seems to lack the exact thing so many MMO and game players lack today... PATIENCE. In this clip he literally acts like 10 seconds is a life time, ten whole seconds. Really? Maybe, just maybe, lighten up on the energy drinks and take a breath. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyfwDvvk9Yg&feature=youtu.be&t=275
Sadly, this will be one the things that makes players love or hate Pantheon. Its a problem in society in general these days, but it certainly has no place in an MMO like Pantheon, and I wouldn't want to see too much sped up to accommodate this impatience.
So what are your thoughts? Are you a rabbit or a turtle? Do you like things slow and steady or would you like them fast, fast, fast?
Obviously, I like slow and steady.
I know you are trying to make a point but you do realize this video was about PVP and more specifically it looks like a battle royal mode. I don't know anyone who likes to " take it slow" in battle royal. PvP is supposed to be fast and fun otherwise why play?
I didnt read the whole thread so sorry if someone else pointed this out. I actually watched the video and the guy sounded calm and composed and is testing a game still in alpha.beta. He mentioned a NDA.
That being said, if someone wants instant gratification there are lots of games out there for them.
Bronsun said:If you mean is there a difference between patience and impatience? Yes. You sound at least reasonable, but this isn't just about making things take longer. This is about people being obnoxiously impatient.
Games have clearly changed in the last two decades, but so have people. The fact that the CDC shows an increase in people diagnosed with ADHD is solid proof that people have changed. This could be a reason why so many more gamer are so impatient, aggressive, excitable, fidgeting, hyperactive, and irritabile while playing games. Its not an excuse, but a potential reason.
Competition certainly gets people riled up as well, but its much deeper than that. All you have to do is play any MMO these days and you'll immediately come across some players rushing from quest to quest or in a dungeon pushing you to ..HURRY UP!. As if this behavior wasn't bad enough, without skipping a beat, they instantly turn rude blaming you for all of this. Talking to a complete stranger they have no problem saying things like "LEARN TO PLAY YOUR CLASS DUMBASS" or " GET BETTER PLEB". That's if they stick around at all. Many times they just leave because you weren't keeping up with them. They don't talk, they just run through the dungeon as if you weren't even there excepting you to do what they want. This is specifically problematic in WoW. The que dungeon system have turned a once very fun experince in WoW to a grotesque carnival of impatient assholes. Sad.
The game will dictate this. Pantheon will be a slower game, so the community in general will rally behind this fact. If someone is constantly abusing people for being "slow" they will slowly develop that reputation and people will stop grouping with them.
I dont feel it's the players that become impatient persay say but the game that causes the impatience. As I said if the game gives you enough to do, there should be no reason to feel impatient.