I havent seen that particular video yet, but actively trying to sell items yourself does sound problematic in the long run.
I do remember a game once that had a marketplace where you would purchase a stall and you would basically AFK with a shop running and sell items when you weren't actively playing.
I've seen older games do this where you could set up shop anywhere and it became a bloated eyesore in the major areas, but with an actual marketplace with set stalls you could use, perhaps?
You would walk down the rows checking each indivudual shop. I felt like I was going shopping, rather than just hitting a mechanic to look through an auction house menu.
There is a raging philosophical debate between the "tunnel traders" and everyone else on this forum, but I don't think you need to worry too much :) From the few times that we've had a chance to talk with the devs about the envisoned in-game economy, they seem to be grounded in really trying to make the economy work. Part of that is insuring scarcity to be sure, but part of it is also insuring that everyone is able to participate, regardless of how much or how little time they have to log in.
I think as we get closer to PA4 and Alpha, we'll start to hear more about the systems that they're envisioning to support the economy - not just traditional gathering and crafting, but also salvaging, scavenging, buying/selling, and of course, itemization all up.
In the meantime though, I think it's important that everyone keeps talking about what they think would work to satisfy everyone, and by extension, what would work for you. That will help the devs to evaluate their own ideas and try to find the best solution possible. We shouldn't try to design it for the devs, but if we can come close to broad agreement on something, it will make their job a lot easier.
I don't think you have to worry either.
Brad has said again and again that he realises times have changed and even old-school fans have responsibilities and whatnot and they are aiming for 2 hours sessions to be as much as is ever needed to make 'meaningful progress'.
I seriously doubt we will see *only* old-school EQ style trading where you often had to spend many hours trading or be logging on at weird times or watch scrolling trade spam until your eyes bleed.
I truly hope people can still do that and that whatever Auction House style system appears will not be totally automated (I'd personally be happy with a 'listing' function with conveniently placed banking and crafting halls so people are just put in touch and still can personally negotiate and arrange the exchange), but I don't want '100% manual' either.
I agree that VR isn't going to batty on us and limit constructive play to a handful of "no-life" types like me.
Note the active thread on the East Commons Tunnel for a lot of discussion on this point. VR has indicated that regional trading systems are likely the way they will go - neither bazaar nor *too* ubiquitous and easy.
Note that although this is billed as a highly social game focusing on grouping VR has indicated that they understand that not everyone will have time to devote hours to a group every day or even most days and that solo content will be perhaps second-rate (my words not theirs) but still robust and productive. So grouping will be encouraged but not forced. This shows that they are well aware that many players also have lives and while they won't give up their core design principles they also will not be so strict about them as to exclude players that like an "old school" type game but that also have lives.
"I have a life" is used so frequently it has become the Cry Wolf Syndrome to any mechanic or design decision someone doesn't like.
I'd be okay with parking a toon somewhere and going afk if the server will let me do that. I think that's how the EQ bazaar worked if I remember correctly. MMO trade has never been a big priority for me either way, so I don't have a super strong opinions about about what system they end up putting in.
Perhaps they could find a way to blend semi-automated and group focused somehow. Like scheduled auction times where players have to show up to an auction area and list their items with an aucioneer npc. Just like real life. Auctions are scheduled events where people interested in buying/selling goods show up to bid / trade. And if players wish to keep selling outside of these scheduled auction windows, they could gather in a place, or advertise their items as they travel through the world.
Heck, it would be kind of neat if players who are really interested in trading could somehow facilitate the auctions themselves as a service for a fee, or a certain cut of the profits. That would be pretty cool. They could reserve an auction house and somehow advertise an auction and then act as a buy/sell broker. Players could then list their items with that player for that particular auction and then the auctioneer could somehow list everything on a notice board for prospective buyers to preview the upcoming lots. Of course there would have to be mechanics in place to keep them from just stealing items, but that would be neat if they could create tools that allow players to simulate real auctions.
Parascol said:Perhaps they could find a way to blend semi-automated and group focused somehow. Like scheduled auction times where players have to show up to an auction area and list their items with an aucioneer npc. Just like real life. Auctions are scheduled events where people interested in buying/selling goods show up to bid / trade. And if players wish to keep selling outside of these scheduled auction windows, they could gather in a place, or advertise their items as they travel through the world.
No. Any time there's a hard-coded scheduled event in a game, it becomes instantly inaccessible to a group of people who can't manipulate their lives around that schedule.
I sympathize with the OP's concerns and feel them myself. Back when I was in university, even double-majoring and involved in 3 different musical groups, I had many hours to devote to MMOs. That changed the moment I entered the workforce (as a teacher... oof), and while I'm unemployed currently thanks to a change in location, the free time I have today isn't going to last (hopefully not more than a week or two heh).
Adult daily schedules just... aren't as flexible. And I hope VR keeps that in mind when building this game.
Naunet said:Parascol said:Perhaps they could find a way to blend semi-automated and group focused somehow. Like scheduled auction times where players have to show up to an auction area and list their items with an aucioneer npc. Just like real life. Auctions are scheduled events where people interested in buying/selling goods show up to bid / trade. And if players wish to keep selling outside of these scheduled auction windows, they could gather in a place, or advertise their items as they travel through the world.No. Any time there's a hard-coded scheduled event in a game, it becomes instantly inaccessible to a group of people who can't manipulate their lives around that schedule.
I sympathize with the OP's concerns and feel them myself. Back when I was in university, even double-majoring and involved in 3 different musical groups, I had many hours to devote to MMOs. That changed the moment I entered the workforce (as a teacher... oof), and while I'm unemployed currently thanks to a change in location, the free time I have today isn't going to last (hopefully not more than a week or two heh).
Adult daily schedules just... aren't as flexible. And I hope VR keeps that in mind when building this game.
Well that's the thing, the player facilitating would decide when to schedule it. In fact, they could just make it so that traders could bid on time slots (say 1-2 hour windows). My assumption is that most would be scheduled during prime hours, and those particular prime slots would fetch a premium to reserve.
How is this different than real life? Barrett Jackson spans several days. Some people take time off to attend the entire event. Others attend the day that works best for them.
Think of it this way, you are paying someone who loves to trade to sell your items for you, as a service, so that you don't have to spend hours sitting there. That's the point. There will be players who are interested in doing this, so why not pay them to do it?
And if you are a buyer, then you can preview the lots and decide if it's worth your time to show up and bid on specific items at that time.
Parascol said:How is this different than real life? Barrett Jackson spans several days. Some people take time off to attend the entire event. Others attend the day that works best for them.Think of it this way, you are paying someone who loves to trade to sell your items for you, as a service, so that you don't have to spend hours sitting there. That's the point. There will be players who are interested in doing this, so why not pay them to do it?
This is a video game. We don't need to model everything off real life. There's another thread dedicated to discussing trading/auction mechanics, so I'll simply state that if there is an auction house, it needs to be available 24/7.
Naunet said:Parascol said:How is this different than real life? Barrett Jackson spans several days. Some people take time off to attend the entire event. Others attend the day that works best for them.Think of it this way, you are paying someone who loves to trade to sell your items for you, as a service, so that you don't have to spend hours sitting there. That's the point. There will be players who are interested in doing this, so why not pay them to do it?
This is a video game. We don't need to model everything off real life. There's another thread dedicated to discussing trading/auction mechanics, so I'll simply state that if there is an auction house, it needs to be available 24/7.
Naunet, a core tenet of this game is about community. I'm just brainstorming ways of scheduling (Keyword: Schedule) trade, while keeping player interaction / community in mind. There are probably a host of pitfalls associated with such a system that I'm not thinking of, and there could be other systems that work better that I'm not thinking of at all. It's just an idea.
Either way, I appreciate the constructive brainstorming with you.
I have to say though, this game might really disappoint you if you are looking for quick, easy anything.
And by the way, I'm pushing 40 years old, work a full time job, take care of a sick parent (full time) and have a family. I understand real-life obligations just as much as the next guy.
Parascol said:I have to say though, this game might really disappoint you if you are looking for quick, easy anything.
Literally nothing I've said has implied I want "a quick, easy anything". I simply hope enjoying the game is actually accessible for people who don't have 4+ hours every day to devote to it.
Happy to continue discussing specific auction mechanics, but I don't think that's what this thread is for.
Naunet said:Parascol said:I have to say though, this game might really disappoint you if you are looking for quick, easy anything.Literally nothing I've said has implied I want "a quick, easy anything". I simply hope enjoying the game is actually accessible for people who don't have 4+ hours every day to devote to it.
Happy to continue discussing specific auction mechanics, but I don't think that's what this thread is for.
Because every post from you is basically, "I don't have time to play MMO's". I don't understand what you want from this game? They want a solid community with a LOT of player interaction. An automated/ 24/7 auction house is the antithesis of this vision.
This post is specific to trade/auctions. Maybe it didn't warrent a new thread, but it is on topic for this thread.
Alot of good feedback here.
I made this comment after hearing a dev talk about systems in other games, i just hoped they werent adopting that system.
For me personally the thought of having to stand at a stall and sell items is horrible, considering if this game turns out good i plan on playing it for the rest of my life.
I play MMOs to explore, kill stuff and have fun not being a merchant, obviously other people are different and maybe that idea appeals to them.
I think if they want to succeed they need to appeal to the majority and minority at the same time in some sort of perfect hybrid.
The majority do not want to stand still all day selling gear, especially not often for the months/years they keep playing the game.
For this selling situation, maybe you can hire NPCs that are your staff to sell for you and you actually need to pay them, that would be pretty cool i think.
Kastor said: Auction it in zone chat or sell to a vendor then. I for one hope there isn't a global auction house or a server wide AH. And if there is an AH at all, have very few of them... either 1 on each continent of the starting races. Like a neutral port city or something. Or 1 in each of the races starting city. In the marketplace. Both options I list the AH would only be local to that area. It would not be server wide, so starting area of Humans would have different listings than starting area of Ogres city AH.
I can almost guarantee that if they go with local AHs (as they have suggested previously), the community will end up focusing on one in particular and the others will go largely unused.
Naunet said:Kastor said: Auction it in zone chat or sell to a vendor then. I for one hope there isn't a global auction house or a server wide AH. And if there is an AH at all, have very few of them... either 1 on each continent of the starting races. Like a neutral port city or something. Or 1 in each of the races starting city. In the marketplace. Both options I list the AH would only be local to that area. It would not be server wide, so starting area of Humans would have different listings than starting area of Ogres city AH.I can almost guarantee that if they go with local AHs (as they have suggested previously), the community will end up focusing on one in particular and the others will go largely unused.
Time will tell but from what iv heard factions will be a big thing in game so unless someone is skilled enough to sneak into a dwarf city as an elf and trade there i dont think that will happen. Unlees everyone of course makes Elfs then yes everyone will only use one acution house :P
Naunet said:Kastor said: Auction it in zone chat or sell to a vendor then. I for one hope there isn't a global auction house or a server wide AH. And if there is an AH at all, have very few of them... either 1 on each continent of the starting races. Like a neutral port city or something. Or 1 in each of the races starting city. In the marketplace. Both options I list the AH would only be local to that area. It would not be server wide, so starting area of Humans would have different listings than starting area of Ogres city AH.I can almost guarantee that if they go with local AHs (as they have suggested previously), the community will end up focusing on one in particular and the others will go largely unused.
I think you are making a few assumptions there based on other games that have done a poor job in general of making multiple locations matter to players :)
In an ideal design, every NPC town and city should matter to players for the life of their characters. Not just as a place where they started or as a quest hub, but as a base of operations for their adventures in the region. If this works, and if content is evenly distributed throughout the world, and especially if factions really matter and don't just boil down to dark vs light, then we should see player activity in each city or region. That, in turn, makes location matter in the economy. It allows someone to sell in Faerthale and not be forced to compete directly with someone selling in Skarhold. And even better, it allows enterprising players to look for opportunities in underserved regions.
A lot of other games have intentionally failed at making their different cities and regions truly meaningful to players, which is why you see global trade systems or single market hubs. I am hopeful that VR will do their utmost to not take this path though, and not just because I think local markets are better for the economy. I just want the different parts of the world to remain relevant to players and not be places people grow out of.
D-I-S-C-O-R-D.
Set up a Discord account, create channels. Auction House now implemented, and the beauty part is, you can make it work however you want. You don't have to stand in the EC tunnel. Really.
People make a way bigger deal of this than need be. If trading with other players is possible, Discord and web forums pretty much guarantee that people will be able to arrange trade, auction, WTB/WTS, etc while offline. Really.
I think the fine folks at VR should stick to the important tasks - NO LAG 60fps in crowded dungeons, class balancing, no holes in the world, etc. Player trading can work itself out just fine, as with all things emergent gameplay.
Kastor said: Then keep it where only the starting races of that local area can sell within that AH. But anyone can buy. Could also limit the amount of items the AH can hold. Per item, per lvl. Per x,y,z. Anything to promote more .... community!!! There were people that would just play the market and makes 1000s of plat... and that's what they liked to do.
I'm not entirely sure I understand why that would promote community. All it does is necessitate some tedious travel to the different markets to compare prices. The people who play markets to make 1000s of plat aren't particularly community-minded.
Features that promote community involve working together toward shared goals. Something like a server-wide trade channel would contribute to that, but not slogging from city to city to check who's selling what.