One of the premises of a regionally based economy is that supply will be different in different regions, with the expectation that demand will be split by region as well. It should follow then that a regionally based economy will mean that buyers won't be able to instantly comparison shop between regions, at least not without the aid of something outside the game.
I like regional economies because they support more sellers and allow an escape valve when supply far exceeds demand in a region. In a centralized economy, everyone is forced to compete on price alone, and an oversupply situation will create a flooded market and force sellers out of profitability. From a crafting perspective this creates a disincentive for players to pick up crafting: Why bother if you can't make any money? Centralized economies are also more vulnerable to market manipulation, although regional economies aren't immune to this.
Regardless of what systems the game provides for buying and selling, ideally we should all agree that we want players to feel like it's worth it to participate in the economy. This means that we have to balance between how much we push price protection for sellers and how convenient we want to make things for buyers. If the pendulum goes too far in either direction, the risk is that players just give up on the economy altogether, and that hurts everyone in the end.
Kastor said: Community as in selling it yourself and not have it all automated like an AH. Seeing how anything on an AH in most current games, the data is instantly grabbed by some 3rd party software and a bot buys it low and flips it. You should have more faith and optimism... There are PLENTY of other mmos that do the things you suggest. I hope Pantheon sticks to its vision.
You seem to have a different understanding of VR's vision than I do.
The right answer to the problem you outline is not to force players into an economic system that disproportionately favors people with extensive free time, the ability to maintain multiple accounts, or the ability to leave characters logged in to the game overnight - but instead to simply use heuristics to track for signs of automated market manipulation and take appropriate actions against the accounts involved. If we as players can spot it happening then machine learning can be developed that catches it too, and probably more, since an AI has unfettered access to back end data.
Please note this doesn't mean I am arguing for a globally visible AH system, and it doesn't mean I don't want to support and encourage face to face trading. But I do believe that a consignment system is needed, and that a system based purely on players being online will be too cumbersome for all but a small minority to really leverage. I also don't buy the argument that it is impossible for the two styles to coexist. I think it just takes a well designed system that doesn't make things too convenient for buyers or sellers, while still enabling transactions to occur if the seller is offline.
Bronsun said:Until then, its work, work and games in between
I'm in the same exact cycle.
Bronsun said:I preferred the EC tunnel approach. Letting the players naturually determine where the best locations are to trade over time versus pre-designated spots. Plus with dumpster diving on vendors the world is your oyster.
Dear Lord I hope not. I have no intention of going anywhere near a place where people waste their lives spewing out spam selling rubbish for ridiculous prices. EC tunnel type reminds me of gold seller spam. If that ruins the game for me and I don't play, then that will be a shame.
Idrial said:Bronsun said:I preferred the EC tunnel approach. Letting the players naturually determine where the best locations are to trade over time versus pre-designated spots. Plus with dumpster diving on vendors the world is your oyster.
Dear Lord I hope not. I have no intention of going anywhere near a place where people waste their lives spewing out spam selling rubbish for ridiculous prices. EC tunnel type reminds me of gold seller spam. If that ruins the game for me and I don't play, then that will be a shame.
You know you don't have to go to those zones then. In fact, you could probably avoid them and not deal with it.
Kastor said: Community as in selling it yourself and not have it all automated like an AH. Seeing how anything on an AH in most current games, the data is instantly grabbed by some 3rd party software and a bot buys it low and flips it. You should have more faith and optimism... There are PLENTY of other mmos that do the things you suggest. I hope Pantheon sticks to its vision.
Last I heard, VR was looking at local auction houses, so...
I think it's unreasonable to expect sitting in a single location and endlessly spaming "WTS" and "WTB" adverts will be the only way to sell things in any modern MMO.
Hey all, just subscribed and happy to be here discussing the game, and for my first contribution will chime in with one observation: that all the most successful MMOs borrowed liberally from those that came before.
When it comes to selling loot and looking for items to supplement your character, the goal should be the easiest route for both. Auction House provides that. I get that many of you loved the tunnel, and at the time I did too. But what has me excited about this game is going back to clear cut roles in groups not a complete rebirth of everything the old EQ was.
There is no reason to go backwards in what works best. I quit playing ESO (one of multiple reasons) due to having to individually search vendors for gear. It was so archaic I just couldn't get used to it. WoW is a dirty word with many of you, I realize, but their AH is fantastic. It's easy to find gear, sell gear, and creates economies that are individual to servers.
Naunet said:Kastor said: Community as in selling it yourself and not have it all automated like an AH. Seeing how anything on an AH in most current games, the data is instantly grabbed by some 3rd party software and a bot buys it low and flips it. You should have more faith and optimism... There are PLENTY of other mmos that do the things you suggest. I hope Pantheon sticks to its vision.Last I heard, VR was looking at local auction houses, so...
I think it's unreasonable to expect sitting in a single location and endlessly spaming "WTS" and "WTB" adverts will be the only way to sell things in any modern MMO.
That's great! Then sell your items at a lower price, /AUC them when going through zones adventuring, sell to vendor, give item to a friend/new player, trade with a guildmate, etc. There's many different ways to sell / trade not using the AH and not sitting in one zone. If they have local AH's that lowers the possibility and sheer amount of times the above will happen... Server wide AH, barely anyone will be selling and even more significant chance that the above will not happen. Honestly I'd rather not see an AH at launch... I believe it hurts more than it helps. Just go to the AH and get all the materials, new gear, spells, etc. you need. I'd rather let the game evolve and grow. Add the AH later. Even if that means all my equipment slots aren't filled until I'm level 15-20 :) But like i said, I hope Pantheon sticks to it's vision. Not my vision. Not your vision. I hope they take a lot of these threads into consideration, but in the end not everyone will be happy. I'll be playing regardless of AH or not.
I was working full time even when I was younger playing EQ. I didn't have kids, but many people who played it did. I don't remember it being a problem. Plus, there are going to be plenty of younger people who do not have kids that will be playing this game now.
Bronsun said:I preferred the EC tunnel approach. Letting the players naturually determine where the best locations are to trade over time versus pre-designated spots. Plus with dumpster diving on vendors the world is your oyster.
I completely agree. I started with EC and played as it moved into the auction house (bazaar). Of course, the bazaar made selling easier, it really cheapened the experience. 15 years later, going back to P1999, back in the EC tunnels was great. Definitely not a novelty because I still enjoyed it 20 years after the original game launched.
This isn't targeted at anyone in particular but rather at everyone. Just so no one gets too bent out of shape, hopefully.
We all need to remember that just because something worked for us, personally, and we enjoyed it, doesn't mean that it worked well for everyone else. That applies to every game system we debate here on these forums. Just because you don't like someone's opinion doesn't mean that it's not valid and not worthy of consideration.
I'm not a fan of "tunnel trading". Neither am I a fan of a global "auction house" as is found in many games. Both have flaws. Both lead to malfunctioning economies, in their own way. Reading through all the posts in this thread, I think we have all done a great job of calling out the flaws with each side. I lean more towards consigment systems which should be obvious from my posts, but that doesn't mean that I'm blind to the perils of providing too much convenience and what that can do for social interaction. Indeed, I know those problems very well.
I feel like now's the time where all of us, collectively, need to admit that our preferred system *is* flawed, acknowledge that the other side has valid concerns, and look for a way for the two different styles to coexist. We may still not agree but at least the conversation might lead to some new thinking and ideas. I'm pretty sure that there's a better way, but it requires all of us to be willing to let go of something. For the tunnel traders, they're going to have to let go of wanting players to do everything face to face or via /tell or some other mechanism. For AH people, we're going to have to let go of some of that convenience that we might be used to from other games.
Or, you know, we can keep on belittling the people who don't feel the way we do. A lot of people seem to be enjoying doing that.
Anyway, I'm done preaching now. I doubt that it will really influence anyone but I felt like I needed to try. Regardless of how this discussion goes, I have a lot of faith that VR will make the right call on this, and that it will be a reasonable, well thought-out system that will help move the MMO genre forward in all respects.
I have heard brad / VR etc say a few times they are thinking of local AH's.
I like the EC tunnel, face to face thing myself.
One thing I want to say about this type of thread: "I have to work now, I have less time, I can't play 24/7 like I did as a kid etc.." I absolutely hate threads that start like that. it sounds like an adult crying because he's mad that he has to work and pay bills instead of being able to play video games all day... waaaaaaahhhhh QQ I worked 40 hours a week and played 6 nights a week from 6pm til midnight for 5 years straight. Did the people of 1999 not have jobs or responsibilites somehow? Guess I missed out on the government paying me to Not work so i could play video games.... how the h3ll do i sign up for that life?
I saw this while watching a stream, and it really hit home. he said (paraphrasing here):
"Yes, I have to work. I have bills to pay and kids to feed and I have way less time to play then I did when I was 16-18 years old but THAT'S ON ME. Do Not make the game dumbed down because I have resposibilites. My game time and how much I can spend gaming is on ME. Make the game however you (VR) wants and I will worry about MY TIME. it's Not the games resposibility to worry about me."
and, he is right. Stop trying to make Pantheon a instant grat game. Stop trying to make the game worry about Your Life.
VR, make a game and let US worry about US.
I pretty much agree with Flapp.That being said, If it ends up going to auction houses due to majority of players insisiting on it once the game is in full release for a while, than so be it. Add it. But Once its added its never going away. Start without an auction system Like their original vision. If its terrible than add what is needed to resolve the issue raised by the community.
People Dont like stuff being taken away, so its better to undershoot than overshoot on situations like these IMO.
I prefer the EC tunnel approach as well. Always loved that style of trading.
I'm also not opposed to being able to setup an offline merchant in certain designated areas where other players can browse your wares, just as long as there's no search system. Players should have to manually browse other players wares. An AH / item search system definitely ruins the immersion.
I had a life back in the EQ, EQ2, and Vanguard days. Hell, I have more free time noew than I did then.
Back then I was a single parent raising two kids plus holding down a full-time job that required alot of overtime. Now my kids are grown and I am more senior so I don't have to work as much overtime.
Your "people have businer lives now" is a fallacy. Perhaps based on your own life, but a fallacy nonetheless.
bigdogchris said:I completely agree. I started with EC and played as it moved into the auction house (bazaar). Of course, the bazaar made selling easier, it really cheapened the experience. 15 years later, going back to P1999, back in the EC tunnels was great. Definitely not a novelty because I still enjoyed it 20 years after the original game launched.
While I can appreciate that the bazaar removed much of the tedium of the EC tunnel I feel it went too far. It was too sterile of an experience.
Unfortunately even if VR were to take the local-only auction house route, it will not stay that way for long. Let us assume that each city has its own auction house/bazaar set up in such a way that every race (even those KOS to the host city) can easily access the bazaar. While we start with 12 auction houses, the instant players start to believe that other players are going to a particular bazaar moreso than their bazaar, they will move to that city. In very short order, everyone will be using one city's bazaar...EC tunnel all over again.
Even if you could not set yourself up as a vendor in a bazaar of another race (Ogre can't sell in the Gnome bazaar), players will just create trade mule alts.
There really is no way to avoid players centralizing the trading on a server if there is not a specific zone/area set aside for that activity.
Kalok said:I had a life back in the EQ, EQ2, and Vanguard days. Hell, I have more free time noew than I did then.
Back then I was a single parent raising two kids plus holding down a full-time job that required alot of overtime. Now my kids are grown and I am more senior so I don't have to work as much overtime.
Your "people have businer lives now" is a fallacy. Perhaps based on your own life, but a fallacy nonetheless.
I agree with you 100% and more.
Grimseethe said: I was watching some YouTube videos about trading in pantheon and the Dev was describing games were you literally had to stand at the AH and sell the items yourself. I also saw a comment of someone who wanted your items to disappear from AH if you logged off. I get people want immersion but keep in mind people have jobs and other commitments. Mmos are games you play for years and if you honestly think you're going to want to stand in an auction house for hours selling stuff, then I think maybe you haven't thought this through. What's fun and something of a novelty now, might be a agonising chore in a few months/years. I liked the ideas of auctions being local to each node. But honestly if stuff starts disappearing when I log off or if I have to physically stand their and play vendor for hours, I'm just going to avoid selling things altogether. Maybe being a merchant is something you enjoy, but for most it won't be.
No offense to you, but I disagree with you 100%. We had to sell items ourselves back in the old-school days. We had jobs, commitments, and obligations "then" as we do now. This has not changed. What we need is an updated vendor system that requires more player interaction as it did in old-school gameplay. Games such as WoW and EQ-Live use bots - that is not what we need in Pantheon. Vendor bots already exist; we need something that doesn't exist right now.
Vandraad said:bigdogchris said:I completely agree. I started with EC and played as it moved into the auction house (bazaar). Of course, the bazaar made selling easier, it really cheapened the experience. 15 years later, going back to P1999, back in the EC tunnels was great. Definitely not a novelty because I still enjoyed it 20 years after the original game launched.
While I can appreciate that the bazaar removed much of the tedium of the EC tunnel I feel it went too far. It was too sterile of an experience.
Unfortunately even if VR were to take the local-only auction house route, it will not stay that way for long. Let us assume that each city has its own auction house/bazaar set up in such a way that every race (even those KOS to the host city) can easily access the bazaar. While we start with 12 auction houses, the instant players start to believe that other players are going to a particular bazaar moreso than their bazaar, they will move to that city. In very short order, everyone will be using one city's bazaar...EC tunnel all over again.
Even if you could not set yourself up as a vendor in a bazaar of another race (Ogre can't sell in the Gnome bazaar), players will just create trade mule alts.
There really is no way to avoid players centralizing the trading on a server if there is not a specific zone/area set aside for that activity.
You can counter this hy making each bazaar only accept alimit of people using that bazaar, that way not everyone can use it, like have it to qhere a city can only hold let's say 25 traders or something to this effect, that way we can't all go to one city to do just what you fear