Hey gals and guys
for the past 10 years or so at least, the player base are accustomed to watered down mmos. easy, not challenging, instant gratification, etc etc
What are your thoughts on how receptive the "young ones" lol will respond to a game like pantheon, making things real once again.
of course you will always have the "wow heads" but generally speaking of course.
Old timers, myself included loved and missed EQ with all our hearts and are dying for this game to be released and those who pledged to start alpha and beta.
what are your thoughts on that? any plans to attract some of those young ones?
This might not be the conversation you're trying to have, but I just wanted to comment on the seemingly toxic attitude of people towards those who enjoy a different style of game than they [we] do. There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to play a game that isn't as deep and complex. In today's increasingly full and crazy style, it doesn't seem that absurd to think that these types of players simply don't have the time to commit, or don't want to have to invest so much time and effort into a video game when their real lives are stressful and demanding. Especially in America, we have some of the longest work days worldwide (of first world countries) and I myself sometimes just want to go home and watch media where I don't have to interact at all, or play relatively mindless games like Diablo or Black Desert where I don't have to really engage. It's a way to de-stress and unwind after my normal day.
I also don't think it's fair to say that MMOs are uniformly watered down, or filled with instant gratification. Although the common parts of a game like WoW are very simple, some of the mythic raiding and dungeons do become very challenging. In mythic dungeons, you simply aren't going to finish quickly or smoothly unless your rogue is sapping the mobs when they can, and your mage is rooting properly. And while the high end raid content in WoW is contrived, it doesn't make it less difficult. Many of the end game, high difficulty raid bosses require a LOT of coordination and communication, with up to 40 players. I mention WoW by name because it's the most common game reference I see when people talk about the instant gratification and the simplicity. There are other MMOs that can offer genuine difficulty of course, but I'm more interested in arguing the principle than the specifics.
Even if you don't agree that other MMOs can offer challenging content which people enjoy, people that have different desires don't deserve to be talked down to. This is especially true when they aren't even present to voice themselves, as that merely creates an echo chamber of negativity and toxicity that ultimately doesn't effect the targets in the slightest, but only corrupts our own minds.
Forgive me for beginning with something tangential to your actual topic, which I do also want to respond to. VR has mentioned several times that they understand that Pantheon is a niche game (or is at the least going to be viewed as a niche game), and they've gone into some detail about different programs, such as the guide program, or having a robust LFG system that will allow people to make the connections they'll need in the game and keep them long term.
I think, however, ultimately it comes down to one thing, and this kind of hearkens back to the first part of my post. It's okay if not everyone likes Pantheon. Additionally, Pantheon can be successful with a realistically achieved subscription base. It doesn't have to appeal to everyone. That doesn't make Pantheon any less of a great game, and it doesn't make people who don't like Pantheon any less as people.
I appologise if i came across as talking down, maybe i did but that was not my intension for that am sorry.
What i ment by watered down is not the end bosses or raids, i ment the journey to get there, like for example character boosts, pay for play, instant travel, that sort of thing.
yes everyone has the right to play the game they enjoy and yes not everyone will enjoy and want to play Pantheon.
My youngest son, whos 16 years old. Enjoys playing challengling games. All of his friends do as well. They are playing games like Dark Souls and Bloodborne. I think you'll find that some of the "younger" generation will enjoy and thrive in a challenging game and it might be US "the old timers" that might have issues not them :)
Krugus said:My youngest son, whos 16 years old. Enjoys playing challengling games. All of his friends do as well. They are playing games like Dark Souls and Bloodborne. I think you'll find that some of the "younger" generation will enjoy and thrive in a challenging game and it might be US "the old timers" that might have issues not them :)
well said. i stand corrected :)
I dont feel there is was anything said that is toxic about the player base and not sure how it was even related to that. It is the issue of the game designers and the game itself that the post is talking about. I concur that most mmos today and the last decade have been way to easy. When you can level from 110 to 120 in one to two days so that you can just go do 5 or 6 dungeons for 9 months is really sad. the Journey should be the challenge with leveling and raiding of dungeons important all the way thru to max level. For Wow they made it where complete strangers can just run thru a brand new dungeon with ZERO communication or any idea what a boss is doing and what to do to counter it. I dont think that you should have to change the difficulty just to make a challenge. These games were made to be time consuming and years of play. Sometimes I have a weekend to play for hours and sometimes I jump on for an hour here and there but I dont think that it really matters much if someone that plays 20 hours straight does end game raids and has something to show for it. I dont need to have the best if the game is fun to play.
As a wow player since the day it came out I have been turned off by how little challenge the game has become and absolutely anti social like playing a facebook mmo. I was never in a guild that was doing the hardest dungeons but we would have enough members to do a tier below dungeons. If the challenge is only on high difficulty for end game guilds then the game is missing the target. The dungeons only take an a few hours and most people that game can surely come up with that time. Having friends that you communicate with and run with can help break dungeons into wings for different nights of play. To sacrifice quality of game play to cater to those that have a few minutes a night to play is just plain silly. Now that being said having lots of different ways to get gear or have some quick fun is always welcome. This is exactly how I felt about diablo 3. The game should be challenging from the get go instead of pick between 40 different difficulty levels. That way you spend time in every zone for a while and leveling and getting gear meant being excited about new skills or getting that new item after using one for so long.
Morgoth said:Hey gals and guys
for the past 10 years or so at least, the player base are accustomed to watered down mmos. easy, not challenging, instant gratification, etc etc
What are your thoughts on how receptive the "young ones" lol will respond to a game like pantheon, making things real once again.
of course you will always have the "wow heads" but generally speaking of course.
Old timers, myself included loved and missed EQ with all our hearts and are dying for this game to be released and those who pledged to start alpha and beta.
what are your thoughts on that? any plans to attract some of those young ones?
You left out the biggest difference. Almost all MMO's of the last decade are 100% PVP of one flavor or another. Simply stated, without PVP Pantheon will suffer at attracting a large segment of younger 'modern' players.
I know VR has stated they want to have PVP. But frankly given the small team size with a huge laundry list of work to still complete. Making a well-balanced PVP systems seems like it is on the very back burner.
After reading over the posts, etc. In my many years of playing games and seeing things come and go, I believe that we might be surprised at how people will react to Pantheon. As time goes on people's attitude towards trends change. Hard cover books are still being sold, ftf board games and card games are popular again. Overall though I think that Patheon is not the game for players that are impatient.
Skelos said:After reading over the posts, etc. In my many years of playing games and seeing things come and go, I believe that we might be surprised at how people will react to Pantheon. As time goes on people's attitude towards trends change. Hard cover books are still being sold, ftf board games and card games are popular again. Overall though I think that Patheon is not the game for players that are impatient.
Not sure what you mean by impatient. Obviously you never saw the grind players ended up going through for Lineage, Arche Age, and BDO to name a few. Game designers have known for decades now they need to incorporate mechanics to slow down player progression as they approach the highest tier levels. Otherwise their game would be out of content in months.
Pantheon will largely be a niche game. It enjoys a happy place in many older gamers nostalgia memory bank. No different than many successful IPs. It may enjoy a decent following, enough to survive and slowly expand over the years. But to expect it to dominate is a gross misunderstanding of what drives the large portion of modern gamers.
A successful PVP build would elevate Pantheons exposure a great deal I suspect. But good pvp combat is a tricky thing, hard to perfect. PVPers can be very picky.
Any gamer worth their cheese knows PVP is required for large commercial success. You have to look no farther than what are the most popular games on Twitch. All PVP.
I say this being no fan of pvp personally
I think if newer MMO players can get past current MMO mentality they will definitely find a lot to enjoy. I tried explaining to a co-worker that I played FFXI for 4 years fairly hardcore and never hit the endgame proper or even reached the level cap. He looked at me like enjoying a game like that was crazy, "game doesn't even start until you hit level cap." I explained what I mainly did... level other jobs, hunt NMs, help guidmates with their own quest, lots of raid like quest. It honestly wasn't that different from what folks do in modern MMOs. The biggest difference is just how the MMOs of old had the whole experience while you were leveling.... not just distiled into a few raids when you got the end. He was definitely into the whole idea of being able to obtain items early on that could potential be useful forever. Even he is sick of the loot progression in current MMOs.
However, things like travel time, forced group play will be tough sales.
Hi Morgoth,
I have also wondered how the current MMO crowd would respond to an MMO like Pantheon. You are correct when you say that MMOs are watered down now... To me a good example is FFXI vs FFXIV. I played both heavily. FFXIV, in theory, should be the far superior game... better visuals, more quests, more dungeons/raids, party finder etc etc etc but the game is sooooooo shallow compared to FFXI. There is something about that "journey" process you mentioned that just makes a game so much more. You feel like you are part of the world and what your doing has some lasting purpose.
Anyway, to answer your question... its highly likely that most people that are familiar with only the current MMO model (PVP, dungeon runs, endless gear treadmill) will not understand the appeal to a game like Pantheon. However, I also believe that the generation after them could very well have Pantheon become their first MMO, like many of use with EQ or FFXI, and those gamers could become part of the future MMO community.
There are so many games with the same rehashed WoW formula. Pantheon is a breath of fresh air for not only the old MMO players, like me, but also the current MMO players that are just sick of the same old routine.
Temmi said:There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to play a game that isn't as deep and complex. In today's increasingly full and crazy style, it doesn't seem that absurd to think that these types of players simply don't have the time to commit, or don't want to have to invest so much time and effort into a video game when their real lives are stressful and demanding.
I agree with Temmi on this, except I don't think that the OP was saying there is anything wrong with that.
There are plenty of games that aren't aiming for challenging gameplay. I think the OP was simply pointing out, like has been mentioned repeatedly in the past, Pantheon might be a rocky transition for someone who has only played recent mmos.
Temmi said: Although the common parts of a game like WoW are very simple, some of the mythic raiding and dungeons do become very challenging. In mythic dungeons, you simply aren't going to finish quickly or smoothly unless your rogue is sapping the mobs when they can, and your mage is rooting properly. And while the high end raid content in WoW is contrived, it doesn't make it less difficult. Many of the end game, high difficulty raid bosses require a LOT of coordination and communication, with up to 40 players.
I guess it does depend on what you are comparing it to, but I can't say I agree with this ^ part. Even during vanilla wow (which many consider a time when the game was challenging) it was laughably easy compared to EQ during the similar time frame. Requiring sapping and rooting is just basic competence. That doesnt mean it is challenging gameplay. Granted, it is coming from a place of less difficulty from the very beginning because 40 person raids take much less coordination than raids with higher numbers of people. It is indeed less difficult in my experience. But everyone has an opinion on that and that's perfectly fine.
Temmi said:people that have different desires don't deserve to be talked down to.
...
It's okay if not everyone likes Pantheon. Additionally, Pantheon can be successful with a realistically achieved subscription base. It doesn't have to appeal to everyone. That doesn't make Pantheon any less of a great game, and it doesn't make people who don't like Pantheon any less as people.
That ^ is the main point and I don't think it can be stated enough. I agree completely.
I hope lots of people give Pantheon a try. Maybe its not for them? That's possible...if not likely...and that's ok.
Hopefully the faq, the community, and the other info that is out there will prepare people for the type of gameplay they will be getting into so they arent overwhelmed from the beginning.
I think 'young' gamers will take to Pantheon just as easily as they took to games like Dark Souls even though it was, relative to others in their genre, punishingly hard and quite different.
A good game is a good game.
The whole negative attitude to new gamers and new MMORPGs is because of the game producers, not the players.
Sure, compared to games like EQ, modern MMORPGs are often shallow, unchallenging and anti-social, but the producers aimed for that so as to increase their maximise their target audience.
People who still want a deep, challenging, social MMORPG have nowhere to go and that's frustrating and that's why they (we) get a tad 'toxic' sometimes.
philo said:Temmi said: Although the common parts of a game like WoW are very simple, some of the mythic raiding and dungeons do become very challenging. In mythic dungeons, you simply aren't going to finish quickly or smoothly unless your rogue is sapping the mobs when they can, and your mage is rooting properly. And while the high end raid content in WoW is contrived, it doesn't make it less difficult. Many of the end game, high difficulty raid bosses require a LOT of coordination and communication, with up to 40 players.I guess it does depend on what you are comparing it to, but I can't say I agree with this ^ part. Even during vanilla wow (which many consider a time when the game was challenging) it was laughably easy compared to EQ during the similar time frame. Requiring sapping and rooting is just basic competence. That doesnt mean it is challenging gameplay. Granted, it is coming from a place of less difficulty from the very beginning because 40 person raids take much less coordination than raids with higher numbers of people. It is indeed less difficult in my experience. But everyone has an opinion on that and that's perfectly fine.
First off, using some CC is an insignificant part of the challenge in WOW's mythic dungeons. They can be pretty difficult in terms of the mechanics involved IMO.
You say WoW was laughably easy compared to EQ during vanilla, but only 24 guilds in the WORLD cleared the most difficult raid (Naxxrama) before TBC launched. I don't know much about raiding in EQ, so I can't speak for the difficulty. But I guarantee that 99.9% of the people going on about how much more difficult EQ are similarly unqualified to talk about raiding in WoW at the highest levels. So going back and forth arguing about which was more difficult is pointless. Suffices to day that raiding in WoW at the highest levels is/was extremely challenging.
Finally, in regards to the term "watered down", in WoW's case I don't think the difficulty has been watered down so much as it's been compartmentalized. If you want to play ez mode, it's there for you. If you want to play normal difficulty, it's there. If you want a really challenging exerience, it's also there. It's a great approach for the type of MMO that WoW is trying to be. Some people may dislike that approach and prefer a more unfied experience based on challenging group content. I appreciate both myself.
@zoltar
I mentioned there are differences of opinions and that's perfectly ok.
I'll respond in pm's so we don't derail the thread from the OPs point.
Vandraad said:I look at the continuing success of EVE Online that can both attract and keep players because of complex game mechanics and a huge depth and breadth of things to do and places to go.
Eve online is also a VERY niche game. And Vastly different than Pantheon, day and night. Not sure what criteria you are using to define success. Is it just making enough to keep the lights on?
Personally I think it depends. I think some young ones will stay; but most will leave Pantheon. Why? most people always take the path of least resistance.
Morgoth said:what are your thoughts on that? any plans to attract some of those young ones?
You can start by not being condescending and demeaning to people. That would help.
[edit] I'll add that I disagree entirely with your starting premise that MMOs today are somehow missing challenge. Boss mechanics are far more complex in encounters today than they were in the early days of MMOs, for one. While open world mobs may lack certain threat, there are plenty of opportunities to experience challenge - you just have to deliberately seek them out. I don't know a single person who could say with a straight face that WildStar's raiding isn't challenging, or that high prime content isn't challenging. While I stopped raiding in WoW years ago, I clearly recall the challenge of bosses like M'uru, Yogg-Saron (especially with zero lights), heroic Lich King, Sinestra, heroic Ragnaros, heroic Spine of Deathwing... and more, but those were just the most difficult. Back when I played TERA, Shandra Manaya was incredibly challenging.
I think the issue of tone has been beaten to death at this point, so I won't comment except to agree with a lot of replies that it's really important that we don't look down on people who enjoy recent MMOs - because that's silly. And many of them are adults just like us.
People who play MMOs often have a pretty diverse set of things that they enjoy. Some people like to socialize, some like to take on challenging monsters, others like to roleplay, others like to pvp, and others enjoy the stories that they're presented with. Some people really get into the world and stick with it for a long time, while others view it as "just another game" and move to something else when they get bored. In fact, most people cross over between 3 or 4 of the things I've said above.
Just because a game has gone in a direction that doesn't work for us, personally, doesn't make it a bad game. If lots of people enjoy it, then obviously it's doing something right. But that also doesn't mean that people who are enjoying that other game might not enjoy Pantheon.
It's not the level of challenge or depth or complexity of Pantheon that we should be concerned about, when it comes to players who are used to those more recent games. It's not the lack of "hard modes" or "dungeon finders" or quest markers that should worry us. Instead, it's two things.
First, how do we insure that the new player experience for Pantheon introduces people to the world and to Pantheon's ways of doing things gracefully, to help people that simply have no experience with this style of game?
Second, how do we insure that we, as the Pantheon community, create a welcoming environment for people that want to try it out - regardless of where they come from?
Ashvaild said: Maybe the team should get some WoW streamers to try their hand at Pantheon? I'd definitely watch that. Start them low level so they learn group Dynamics and then throw them into some lvl 20's gameplay with a boss at the end.
They literally just did that lol
Also, we should set the record straight. As someone who has raided high end EQ and WoW. WoW raiding is significantly more difficult. Yes the game itself is easier to an extent, but once you get to endgame, which is going to be the goal for most modern mmo players. I really really doubt pantheon will be able to even scoff at WoW in terms of difficulty.
I mean, prior to gates of discord there was a handful of fights in eq that I would even deem difficult.