Ithaca said:Servirus said:The stream was boring wish I had not wasted my time seeing it.
I disagree. I enjoyed it and appreciated it!
Yes it hurt a little to see newbies making silly mistakes over and over but it is cute in a way (as long as they are not in my group haha).
It was a relaxing stream, most of them did not have any experience playing EQ1, EQ2, Vanguard. It is true tha the group was not fully buff for most fights, the tank had no shield and crappy gear, (he also started without abilities) and that some players were not using debuffs and were confused about spell getting resited vs an orange NPC.
But, what I learn from the stream is how much they learn in only 2 hours! When new players will watch veteran players play, they will learn, and enjoy the process. It is cool to not only level up in game and repeat over and over trivial linear quests like a sheep. I feel that it is very valuable for the person behind the character, to learn as well about the mechanics, the rotation, the combo, the positioning, the execution and teamwork. This is what Pantheon is going to bring back!
Thank VR and all the streamers for their time! Keep up the good work!
^this
towards the end when they were on the ramparts and there was only one guard near, Doc was so happy to mez it- and then when the group decided 2 seconds later to kill it I thought I felt Doc die a little inside- lol. and he said "I did it! its mezzed! See?!". That is the kind of event that makes the player want to mezz the mobs before they even get to be a problem and by that- makes the player better. Its a self motivation. Personally, I felt slightly offended when I saw a monster that doc was supposed to mezz, already be mezzed with smoke and mirrors by the other player. I could almost hear the tells: *that's MY job! lay off next time!*
I'd rather they DON'T list the level of the mob. I don't want to know exactly. I want there to be some immersive uncertainty and mystery.
I want to be able to look at a mob and vaguely assess it's approximate power level. But I don't want to know exactly.
The problem is this:
If I am level 20 and I am thinking of pulling a mob. If I con the mob and it's yellow, I know it seems more powerful that me but I might risk it. If I con a mob and it's red, I don't know if that mob is 23 or 33 so I don't really know how risky my fight will be.
By over-informing, we take the mystery and risk and discovery out of the game. Basically they hold your hand and *TELL* you which mobs to attack and which to avoid. You don't learn anything through experience - they spoon feed it to you. by telling you the exact level of the mob.
fazool said:I'd rather they DON'T list the level of the mob. I don't want to know exactly. I want there to be some immersive uncertainty and mystery.
I want to be able to look at a mob and vaguely assess it's approximate power level. But I don't want to know exactly.
The problem is this:
If I am level 20 and I am thinking of pulling a mob. If I con the mob and it's yellow, I know it seems more powerful that me but I might risk it. If I con a mob and it's red, I don't know if that mob is 23 or 33 so I don't really know how risky my fight will be.
By over-informing, we take the mystery and risk and discovery out of the game. Basically they hold your hand and *TELL* you which mobs to attack and which to avoid. You don't learn anything through experience - they spoon feed it to you. by telling you the exact level of the mob.
Agreed. EQ Live recently made a change that shows the exact level of the mob in parentheses after the con message. As if the game wasn't already hand-holdy enough. It completely removes the mystique of the world and turns it into an arcade game. Pantheon also has an orange con (between yellow and red) to give you a little more info. I think that's a good compromise, because beyond that, it's anybody's guess - and that's exciting. Not knowing "how red" something is has been lost to the ages until now. Sometimes it's best to learn lessons the hard way.
The only thing that bored me was the fact that I couldn't already play with them. I thought everything looked great, and I enjoyed watching them struggle. So many games don't deal with such struggles anymore. As a noobie in WoW, I can get through instances without doing a thing while the rest of the group just powerdrives through everything in sight. It's so fast that I barely have time to enjoy all the details of the instance. There's no desire to explore, we can't chat, we can't do anything except kill. Everything is so fast paced and easy... this stream was such a breath of fresh air, and I think the majority of the community here is excited AF for Pantheon. So keep up the good work, VR.
Bazgrim said:fazool said:I'd rather they DON'T list the level of the mob. I don't want to know exactly. I want there to be some immersive uncertainty and mystery.
I want to be able to look at a mob and vaguely assess it's approximate power level. But I don't want to know exactly.
The problem is this:
If I am level 20 and I am thinking of pulling a mob. If I con the mob and it's yellow, I know it seems more powerful that me but I might risk it. If I con a mob and it's red, I don't know if that mob is 23 or 33 so I don't really know how risky my fight will be.
By over-informing, we take the mystery and risk and discovery out of the game. Basically they hold your hand and *TELL* you which mobs to attack and which to avoid. You don't learn anything through experience - they spoon feed it to you. by telling you the exact level of the mob.
Agreed. EQ Live recently made a change that shows the exact level of the mob in parentheses after the con message. As if the game wasn't already hand-holdy enough. It completely removes the mystique of the world and turns it into an arcade game. Pantheon also has an orange con (between yellow and red) to give you a little more info. I think that's a good compromise, because beyond that, it's anybody's guess - and that's exciting. Not knowing "how red" something is has been lost to the ages until now. Sometimes it's best to learn lessons the hard way.
I think there's also a 'dark' and 'light' version of each, so we pretty much give away the level anyway. Light/dark green, blue, white, yellow, orange (and I'm not sure red had a 'dark' and 'light' but I suppose it would be handy to have light red for 'just above' orange and dark red for OMG STAY AWAY.
*shrug* I don't think showing the level would really make much difference to be honest, but as a 'flavour' and 'immersion' thing it's nicer to have to actively 'consider' the monster, like take a second to press a button and read a message as it is analogous to at least taking a close look at the monster before you and having a think about how tough the fight might be and what its disposition is.
It's part of combat and being 'savvy' to not just click (or tab) and attack without thought.
In EQ even within the same con colour there might be variation of the message too depending on your level - for instance there could be three blue messages: -
"You would probably win this fight .. it's not certain though", "looks quite risky, but might be worth a try" and "looks quit risky"
Or two green and only one of them gave XP for the kill: -
"you could probably win this fight" and "this creature could pose problems, you would probably defeat it"
so even with conning, you still had to pay some attention.
Of course there was also the faction/disposition part: -
"considers you an ally", "...warmly", "kindly", "amiably", "indifferently", "apprehensively", "dubiously", "threateningly", "ready to attack"
Of which some meant they wouldn't attack, some meant they would, some meant if you kept your distance they wouldn't, some meant if you kill any more of them you will start to get trouble, etc.
I would love to see more granularity and more meaning in the consider system for Pantheon... Hmm... Maybe I need to make another thread...
Having started watching it (I'm 23 minutes into HiveLeaders) it's great :^) I'm loving that they are approaching it all nonchalantly and getting smashed. It's perfect for showing the mechanics and spells and how challenging the game will be.
I'm chuckling out loud now at them getting fire-arrowed by the orcs and one-by-one dying.
TheHiveLeader: "Dang. Mana management is a thing!"
Yup hehe. Welcome to Pantheon.
Awesome.
TheHiveLeader: "I have a CC as well. It'll last 16 seconds"
Nope. You have a Lull. You could use it to split the pull. It won't work as a CC... Now I'm chuckling waiting for him to try it and wondering why it fails hehe.
It's like a video manual of what not to do and I'm loving it.
I'm really rooting for them, though. It's gonna be great to see then learn and get some success!
Full disclosure, did not watch any of those streamers. Had zero interest.
But from what I read here it actually gives me hope that the Pantheon may actually truly be the spiritual succsesser to EQ1 original.
Nobody (except EQ original veterans possibly) could have been dropped into that game at level 20ish and had any success. Especially given what poor gamers most streamers generally are, their results are not too surprising, from what I am reading here.
To learn your class in EQ and Vanguard and how to handle yourself in dangerous dungeons as a team was not a 5 minute process.
This means Pantheon is looking to be more of a skills based game, not a button mashing, fly thru content solo game.
Now lets hope VR does not bend to whines of the legion of tweenies that grew up in carebear WoW, and start stripping away all parts that require actual skills.
Wow just woke up to read the rest of the comment I have to say most of you showed some very unique points and takes on the stream. We all are different and yes!, you guys made me look at some different stuff in a way I was not looking at it. Thank you all for taking your time reading all the comments and sharing your views (mine changed I can't say comepletely), but maybe im a lil stubborn LOL. This is the part I like about the community and hopefully when i post again ill get this many views to broaden not only myself but your views as well :)
nexus said: I'm glad I did not watch it live. I did not have a clue who these "Dream Team MMO" folks where, but I expected some basic MMO knowledge.
Although the wikipedia page point that 'sarcasm' is not necessarily ironic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm), I thought it was funny. They chose 'sarcasm' to pick the name of their group. Sarcasm is funny. They might have gotten attention to a few additional hundred of future potential fans/players.
Bazgrim said:Seeing a group coming into Pantheon with almost no knowledge and relying on the bad habits they've established from years of playing modern casual MMOs.
This right here is what made that stream so damn hilarious. Just watching those guys do so many things which quickly caused them problems yet only once or twice did they realize any of it. Pantheon will not be easy. Management, of many things, is so important once again.
This is going to be a wakeup call to many MMOs players who only know the current MMO approach.
Bazgrim said:fazool said:I'd rather they DON'T list the level of the mob. I don't want to know exactly. I want there to be some immersive uncertainty and mystery.
I want to be able to look at a mob and vaguely assess it's approximate power level. But I don't want to know exactly.
The problem is this:
If I am level 20 and I am thinking of pulling a mob. If I con the mob and it's yellow, I know it seems more powerful that me but I might risk it. If I con a mob and it's red, I don't know if that mob is 23 or 33 so I don't really know how risky my fight will be.
By over-informing, we take the mystery and risk and discovery out of the game. Basically they hold your hand and *TELL* you which mobs to attack and which to avoid. You don't learn anything through experience - they spoon feed it to you. by telling you the exact level of the mob.
Agreed. EQ Live recently made a change that shows the exact level of the mob in parentheses after the con message. As if the game wasn't already hand-holdy enough. It completely removes the mystique of the world and turns it into an arcade game. Pantheon also has an orange con (between yellow and red) to give you a little more info. I think that's a good compromise, because beyond that, it's anybody's guess - and that's exciting. Not knowing "how red" something is has been lost to the ages until now. Sometimes it's best to learn lessons the hard way.
This is a little off topic, and while I agree with not showing the level of the mob, I hope VR considers finding a new way to display the "con" of the mob. As it stands, they have just literally taken the EQ con system, and how the player interacts with it, and implemented into Pantheon. I would like to see some innovation here, much the way it was handled in Vanguard -- the "dot" con system essentially provided the same information but packaged it in a sleek, intuitive ui design accessed simply by targeting the mob.
For anyone unfamiliar, this link shows a Vanguard enemy target window in the upper right corner (this image is not my own). The color of the dots gives you an indication of the mobs level relative to yours (same as EQ) and the number of dots gives you an indication of the mobs relative difficulty (much how the EQ system describes the mob, i.e. "what would you like your tombstone to say?"). As you can see, it conveys the same information but in a way unique to Vanguard (and in a more intuitive way IMO).
I'm not suggesting VR instead just use the Vanguard con system but consider finding a way to package this information in a new way and incorporating it into the ui. I think new players unfamiliar with the idea of "coning" a mob will struggle with the current iteration, while at least packaging the system into the ui will at least encourage new players to ask "how does this work" rather than getting frustrated.
Bazgrim said:fazool said:I'd rather they DON'T list the level of the mob. I don't want to know exactly. I want there to be some immersive uncertainty and mystery.
I want to be able to look at a mob and vaguely assess it's approximate power level. But I don't want to know exactly.
The problem is this:
If I am level 20 and I am thinking of pulling a mob. If I con the mob and it's yellow, I know it seems more powerful that me but I might risk it. If I con a mob and it's red, I don't know if that mob is 23 or 33 so I don't really know how risky my fight will be.
By over-informing, we take the mystery and risk and discovery out of the game. Basically they hold your hand and *TELL* you which mobs to attack and which to avoid. You don't learn anything through experience - they spoon feed it to you. by telling you the exact level of the mob.
Agreed. EQ Live recently made a change that shows the exact level of the mob in parentheses after the con message. As if the game wasn't already hand-holdy enough. It completely removes the mystique of the world and turns it into an arcade game. Pantheon also has an orange con (between yellow and red) to give you a little more info. I think that's a good compromise, because beyond that, it's anybody's guess - and that's exciting. Not knowing "how red" something is has been lost to the ages until now. Sometimes it's best to learn lessons the hard way.
This is a little off topic, and while I agree with not showing the level of the mob, I hope VR considers finding a new way to display the "con" of the mob. As it stands, they have just literally taken the EQ con system, and how the player interacts with it, and implemented into Pantheon. I would like to see some innovation here, much the way it was handled in Vanguard -- the "dot" con system essentially provided the same information but packaged it in a sleek, intuitive ui design accessed simply by targeting the mob.
For anyone unfamiliar, this link shows a Vanguard enemy target window in the upper right corner (this image is not my own). The color of the dots gives you an indication of the mobs level relative to yours (same as EQ) and the number of dots gives you an indication of the mobs relative difficulty (much how the EQ system describes the mob, i.e. "what would you like your tombstone to say?"). As you can see, it conveys the same information but in a way unique to Vanguard (and in a more intuitive way IMO).
I'm not suggesting VR instead just use the Vanguard con system but consider finding a way to package this information in a new way and incorporating it into the ui. I think new players unfamiliar with the idea of "coning" a mob will struggle with the current iteration, while packaging the system into the ui will at least encourage new players to ask "how does this work" rather than getting frustrated.
Frankly I not fully sure what the point of these streams were. I understand Cohh, he is a legitimately large hype-streamer. The others, not even close. They are miniscule. It would have been more interesting (for us pledgers) to see some pre-alpha players stream and more informative I dare say.
Throwing streamers into a combat situation, that (I assume) have not played the game, and therefore do not have the benefit of learning the game or their classes is obviously a recipe for failure.
And reading some of the posts by sycophant streamer fanboi's is just nauseating.
As I see it:
PROS
The game gets exposure and thus more revenue from new pledgers.
It gives current pledgers something to see of the game progress and helps tamp down concerns.
It's pre-education, for the legion of more modern MMO's millennials, modern EQplayers (and WoW players) used to instant gratification and power-soloing through hundreds of mobs in an hour for their daily grind-fest.
CONS
Bad gameplay detracts from positive perception of the game and may deter potential pledgers.
Using unskilled streamers effectively over-simplfies what we expect to be a challenging, skill-based game. You should not be able to just "drop-in" geared-out and be excellent.
Early (unpolished) gameplay and functionality gives wrong impessions to potential future players/pledgers, no matter how much you try and explain it's early development.
I suppose - this is just the way it has to be for a small studio that needs to keep a revenue stream alive? As I assume it's all about exposure for VR, large and small.
philo said:I'm not expecting them to be experts but I do have to question someones mmo experience when they don't understand something as basic as what conning a mob is. Similar to how, in one of the older streams, the streamer didn't realize that sitting would regen mana faster and they tried to click on water when they were oom.
It seems like there needs to be a better screening process in order to show off the game a bit better.
I would definitely prefer if all the streamers (not just today) were more familiar with their characters but I'll take what I can get.
I've played exactly one (1) game where you con mobs and sit down to regen mana without right clicking to drink water. Those things are hardly basic mmo experience but specific everquest experience. In fact, levels on target bar and clicking on water to regen ARE basic mmo experience and I'd argue that because it is, its great that it was shown on stream that it isn't the fact in Pantheon, it informs potential takers about the game rather than it being assumed that everyone already scoured the forums and previous videos about every minute detail
Nikademis said: This is a little off topic, and while I agree with not showing the level of the mob, I hope VR considers finding a new way to display the "con" of the mob. As it stands, they have just literally taken the EQ con system, and how the player interacts with it, and implemented into Pantheon. I would like to see some innovation here, much the way it was handled in Vanguard -- the "dot" con system essentially provided the same information but packaged it in a sleek, intuitive ui design accessed simply by targeting the mob.
This is probably part of the kind of thing Joppa was talking about when they asked him about addons. He said they wanted players to be able to configure things to show them the info they want in the way they want it. So likely you will be able to tweek the UI to display the 'con' of mobs in however you want. It could be something as simple as displaying the mob's Health bar the colour of the 'con'.
Orchard said:Watching people who never really played EverQuest get wrecked two mobs in is priceless. It shows that there is a severe disadvantage people will have by trying to steamroll content by not using CC or just plain pulling too much. It's a nice change of pace from the solo friendly games that came out in recent years in the genre. Plus, these guys didn't really have time to "learn" their class before being thrown into the fire. If I joined a group like that, ESPECIALLY at that level, I would probably leave it too, but i would also ask how they reached that level without learning their classes. They did get better as time went on however. I think i heard Joppa explicitly say they don't want to reveal new areas either until they're completely satisfied with them.
This game isn't intended to be a so-called WoW killer, it's a specific niche game that promotes an interactive community and working together to overcome obstacles. If you don't like it, that's cool, you're entitled to your own opinion. If you do like it, cool! keep following the development of it and if you want to you can pledge (donate) to the game and get in-game items when it launches.
Intended or not, it will be the wow killer, the thing is this game is going have what wow offered in the beginning only better, that of which drew in millions which drew in millions more, this will happen it is forseen..
Riqq said:Intended or not, it will be the wow killer, the thing is this game is going have what wow offered in the beginning only better, that of which drew in millions which drew in millions more, this will happen it is forseen..
Well at least you aren't underestimating what the population might be :P
I would say that you couldn't communicate more clearly what pantheon is and what to expect from it than from a rather hardcore reality check for well known game streamers.
I thought it was entertaining as hell, personally. and the process of evolving tactics the group went thru was a fantastic way to highlight several game tenets.
Feyshtey said:I would say that you couldn't communicate more clearly what pantheon is and what to expect from it than from a rather hardcore reality check for well known game streamers.
I thought it was entertaining as hell, personally. and the process of evolving tactics the group went thru was a fantastic way to highlight several game tenets.
Let me just fix this for you.
"I would say that you couldn't communicate more clearly what pantheon is and what to expect from it than from a rather hardcore reality check for well known game streamers."
Riqq said:Intended or not, it will be the wow killer.
Not at all. Different markets serving different customers and needs. Pantheon is a niche in the MMO landscape. Even if Visionary Realms successfully deliver a great game, it will not replace most of the MMO. Not everybody enjoy the complexity and challenge of it.
