realism when it adds to the game:
day/night cycle with different mobs at night and NPC sleeping at night at cities-> yes
summer/winter cycle with changing mobs-->yes
food replenish health/mana etc --> yes
realism gone too far:
hunger, when you are hungry you have to eat or you die --> no
toilet time --> no need to have an in game bio break in the middle of the raid tanking....
aging, the character dies after x hours played--> no.
tetanus infection after getting wounded by orcish blade --> no.
I am in the more realism the better camp. A few needless things like bathroom breaks can be left out but I actually like the idea of tetanus infections, food being very important, and buildings/equipment aging.
Basically it comes down to incorporating not static mob encampment placement, a world that feels alive and therefor can die, consequences to your actions (or inactions) and as many natural systems that can be created and automated that then drive most of the other conditional decision trees.
Kilsin said:Realism - How real to life do you like your MMORPGs to be, is there a limit between how much game worlds should include real-world elements and if so, what are they in your opinion? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
I draw the line at "immersion breaking" realism. What I mean by that is things that are not "period correct" for the genre that the game is. For example, Pantheon is a "high fantasy" MMO that has a medieval flavor. No motorcycles, guns, Coke billboards, etc.
So I'm somewhere in between Ruar and Trasak's replies :)
I think you need some level of realism to make things feel meaningful, both in terms of the world and in terms of us doing them, and in order to insure that the game economy works.
Food/drink is a good example of this. So many games have relegated food/drink to simply a buff - and because of that, many players simply ignore it altogether until they hit the level cap and suddenly care more about their stats. This, in turn, completely destroys the market for low-level food/drink that crafters might produce. Go play a "provisioner" or "chef" in any game that allows it, and you'll likely find that no one wants any of the food/drink you can make starting out, but if you grind all the way to the level/skill cap, you literally can't make enough of it to satisfy demand.
Climate and clothing is another example. How many times in other games do you see people running around snowy areas in bikinis, or riding across a desert in a full suit of plate armor? To some people, while this might seem silly at first, seeing it happen over and over again can be really immersion breaking - especially when you see NPCs dressed appropriately for the climate or complaining about the heat/cold.
Another economic example is item wear. In the real world, stuff wears out and breaks after a while. In many games it does not. The problem with things not wearing out and breaking is that there are new things coming into the game all the time, whether as loot drops or made by crafted. In a world where everyone still has access to their grandfather's sword, and that sword is just as sharp as the day it was made, why would they ever need to buy a new sword? We want the game economy to function sensibly which means that there needs to be demand for the items that players can create or pick up and sell. Without some sort of item wear or other realistic/immersive way to pull items out of the game, over time the economy simply breaks down because demand drops to near zero, while supply continues to rise.
With all that said, there's some level of realism that's counterproductive. These games are about allowing people to live out their fantasies and have empowerment and control they may not have in the real world. So things like that tetanus infection or persistent illnesses may be going too far. Crippling wounds that have lasting effects are probably also going too far. Bathroom breaks, your character needing to sleep 8 hours every game day, and so on... yeah, no. Paying taxes to the NPC government or getting thrown in prison, not so much.
And of course as Kalok pointed out, "realism" is not the same as the real world breaking into the game world. The last thing I want to see in an MMO is real-world political advertisements, just as one example.
Being that games are made up of playable characters, these characters must have a certain amount of realism to be believable.
I'm not sure where that ends for other people, but I enjoyed the body size slider in SWG.
Seeing a 300 lb. large character dancing was very humorous.
In a High Fantasy world try to leave RL elements like advertising or RL clothing styles out of it. When i think of realistic, i think of trying to make tree's look real or Trying to make character models look real. So within the realm of High Fantasy, yes, try to make the imagery look as real as possible within the game engine.
I like realism in the graphics. No cartoon or anime elements please.
I like realism in the stories and quests. Let things make sense not be *obviously* done for game purposes with no way someone in Terminus would ever do such a thing. Yes - the world will have many fantasy elements, as it should. But once the basic rules are set - however alien to our world those rules are - let us have logic within the parameters of how Terminus works. Few things in a book or game annoy me more than the sudden appearance of a Deus ex Machina - something pulled out of a writer's or developers anal oriface just to tie things off because its time to end something.
But never forget that this is entertainment. In my years as a dungeons and dragons gamemaster I tried to follow the game rules but I also tried to make things *fun* for my group of players and if the rules had to be ....overlooked .... occasionally so be it. So where realism results in tedium and frustration let's think twice about whether it is desirable.
Examples - extensive inventory management of arrows or bolts or other consumable weapons - perhaps coming in many different types for use on different occasions. Been there, done that, over many years. Don't especially miss the experience.
Food and drink. Dead or weakened character if not enough eaten or drank. Been there, done that, many times. Killed the Balrog and died of starvation 2 steps from the end of the game. Don't miss that experience either.
Day-night cycles. How many of us really *want* to get to a town to train or sell or cash-in a quest and find that it is 5:01 PM local time and we can do that - in a few hours of real life time. Or look for a questgiver or merchant, not find him or her and look elsewhere. But never find the bloody NPC because the location is where we looked the first time - it just wasn't the right time of day. Been there, done that, absolutely hate this level of realism. Much worse than managing food or arrows/bolts.
Oh - if realism means "real life" reference such as a Christmas holiday with Santa Claus I want none whatsoever. Let Terminus be true to Terminus. No McDonalds in the Butt Cheek Mountains please.
It terms of gameplay I feel the lines between game and reality were pretty spot on with Everquest. It had the best of both worlds. Now that games don't require loading zones and graphic capabilities are twenty times better, worlds can be more immersive.
Its a tight wire act. As a player you need to feel its still a game so whatever breaks that suspension of disbelief crosses over into too real. The thing is, we want the realism in the world ( trees, mountains, water, sounds, creatures, etc ) to ground you there, but we need that fantasy ( spell effects and fire balls, speed buff, magical vine bridge, sparks flying off the swords as they clash, huge giants with a belt of dead goats chasing you into the forest). Things that are too real or ruin immeriveness are things like perma-death, and zone loading. The rest is gold.
Kilsin said:Realism - How real to life do you like your MMORPGs to be, is there a limit between how much game worlds should include real-world elements and if so, what are they in your opinion? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
I do need enough realism that makes things appear as if they could exist. If I come across a large village or small town, I expect to see farms in the surrounding area..lots of them. Yet time after time again population centers never have any visible means by which to sustain their population. And speaking of population, what I want from the population is movement and activity. There should be townfolk moving around, visiting shops, etc, not just shopkeepers standing stock still 24/7. There should be all the buildings and people needed to provide for a town: butchers, bakers, weavers, stone masons, blacksmithes in their forges, inns, breweries, taverns, etc, etc. It should all be alive.
Outside of the cities where there are sentient creatures that inhabit a fortress or other dwelling (think bandits or goblins or orcs, etc), again it comes down to needing to see those things which sustain the population. Where are the forges making the weapons and tools? The larders and kitches filled with food and cooks? Where are the barracks, training grounds, etc?
In the end, what I need at a minimum, is movement. I want NPCs moving around and not just standing there waiting to be slaughtered. Sure, a lookout is best standing stationary, but beyond that there is no reason why NPCs should ever just stand there.
Dullahan said:There is probably a line out there, but I haven't seen anyone cross it. The more the better. I'd like my mmo to be a survival type of game.
Kinda agreeing with this. As far as I'm concerned, there isn't an MMO out there that has gone over the realism line for me. I WANT to worry about freezing in the tundra becuase I didn't bring a coat. I WANT to be in the wilderness, realize I'm running out of food and water, and have to spend time either finding some or buying some from a player.
In fact, the only thing I don't want is character aging. That's just dumb.
A town with npc's moving around doing senseable things. Not pathing away in circles. At daytime most would be outside, but at nighttime perhaps most can be found inside and others might just go out at dusk or during the midst of night? Night and daytime is of course a must!
Yes to allowing some fantasy features in a character's appearance, but no to making it cartoonish or obviously misfigured and impractical. So gear that appears heavier than the player itself or shoulderpads that are bigger than one's cleaver or his own head is pushing it too far for me. Bikini's and scarce clothing is the same thing for me, too far.
Wear and degration of armor or equipment sounds reasonable for me. And it enables a bigger importance of a marketplace/player base market. Food and drinks should indeed have temp buffs and effects and will need to be replenished. But not to the point you'll die from hunger if going without. One should be effected by consuming too much alcohol in one time. And multiple food and drinks should not stack their effect.
You should be able to make a skinny ogre but also a fat human. Several asian games offer this character creation option and it's one of the few things I love about asian mmo's. Same goes with an aged effect, but aging itself seems one stretch too far for me. And indeed, making character appearance too humanlooking, will have an aversive effect for me as well. Keep to a style, don't try to make perfectly human images.
I do believe someone wearing plate armor in the desert will suffer from the heat and his performance might be negatively effected. Whereas robes and leather might not. But in a decidious area the plate wearing might be the one on the benefit side. Perhaps in the desert, the heat might lower his stamina or regeneration of it? BUT since this is a fantasy game, one might find a magical adornment, spell or coating made by players..that prevents the plate wearer from becoming effecting by the heat in the desert. This for me, sounds pretty doable in game. That's all itemisation and that again is ok, based on lore, tradeskill profession or loottables.
Make the positioning of towns, villages and castles logic when placing them in the region. But of course, when talking about a place or town with magical content...anything could be possible. Not everything should be soaked in magic btw.
Inventory space...a player should be able to carry several bags.. but no one is carrying 10.000-1.000 arrows in his quiver and wears 6 metal strongboxes on his back and still moves like an antelope in spring. This again could be solved by either, player skill ability to create arrows with a portable kit or having enough npc's or crafting stations available to allow purchase or creation of items that players have ran out of. Not every npc would sell every item ingame, but local products that will do the trick for it's surroundings. If you want a stack of magical arrows, then hold them back for the boss and buy/craft some others for your way there.
Since I think, this is a medieval period oriented game, no guns or too fancy metal or mechanical wonders, please. No it does not make sense, genious from that time would invent a sharper arrow or a stronger axe, not a musket, portable cannon or cowlauncher.
Different mounts, yes. But like above mentioned, a gnome can not ride a dragon or mammoth. And the other way around, a ogre can not ride a spider or a mouse. Anything hovering should be limited to spellflingers, this does not include other flying mounts. Hot air balloons and one person airships and racecars are a big NONO.
I agree with no need for Christmas and other modern holidays. They had festivals in that time as well. Just research a bit and you'll find plenty of reasons to launch events that make sense during that age in history. Plenty of heroes, wars, gods to worship and celebrate, weddings, new moons, longest day kind of things.
Poisoning will occur during battle, but food poisoning or being unwell by hurting yourself on a rusted blade you looted...that's callling it close for me. But still workable, if I'm truely honest. People in that day of age would carry remedies with them and those who didn't got ill indeed. But nothing that a npc in town couldn't have a cure for. For the player that might just mean a lower damage rate or again a lower stamina. Don't forget, this game is willing to make it more challenging for players, this means players should be able to make mistakes and learn from it. That could include becoming ill and having to head back to town for aid instead of rubbing it of and pushing forward. I'm sure most players won't make that same mistake twice to become ill or venture out without having something with them next time around. Those items could be playermade as well, this allows one to trade it with someone who fell ill on the way, opening up market possibilities, player dependency etc.
As long as I feel immersed like I was in Norrath, I will be satisfied and enjoyed the ride. Tedious real life actions do not have a place in a MMO. Perhaps in a simulation game of some kind, but MMORPG are about something else. A challenging adventure, exploring, meeting people, finding great loot, and killing badass bosses. Not brushing my teeth, go to the bathroom, change my socks. There needs to be a clear differentiation between actions that bring value to the players, and tedious actions that are annoying and get old very quickly.
Kilsin said:Realism - How real to life do you like your MMORPGs to be, is there a limit between how much game worlds should include real-world elements and if so, what are they in your opinion? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
I need to define realism first because this question is for me at the heart of the issue whether I like or dislike an MMORPG . It would be actually the very N°1 issue .
I define realism like Tolkien did in his famous essay where he explained why a fantasy world is succesful . Realism is what keeps "the inner consistency of reality" intact . That means that things on the surface don't need to look like the reality that we know . There may be dragons, unicorns, wizards casting fire balls and towns of gold and crystal . Nothing of that is realistic yet it doesn't matter because it is on the surface . But as we believe that the RL is real only because it has an inner consistency, if I want to feel in a fantasy world like if it was real , I need the same inner consistency .
That means that if there is a farm, I want to seee farmers working on the fields . If an NPC is wanted for murder then he cannot walk in a town which is patrolled by guards . I do not want to see contradictions like an NPC having spent his life looking for an artifact and then to give me (a total stranger) informations and items which allow to get this artifact . If some village people tell me about recurrent orc raids then I want to see orc raids from time to time . Also like somebody said before - if I am told that I am in a capital, I want it to feel like a capital and not in a village with 20 houses most of them empty and a dozen of NPC that are doing nothing . There is no limit to this realism - the more of the inner consistency of reality there is , the better for me .
Now as for the ancillary details on the surface , there should be some like needing to eat and drink , having a day/night and season cycle, being able to climb on trees (if there are trees), having an architecture and life style looking like Middle Ages and having PC graphics that look realistic as opposed to cartoonish . But as I said above - increasing too much the number of details by simulating superficial aspects of reality will not increase the feeling to be in a real world and on the contrary can become annoying .
Things I hate and hope aren't included.
Giant Bunny mounts and anything similar
Oversised Weapons and Armor
Santa hats or anything pertaining to our or other real life events.
Guns
Cars
Bikini
Aging and dying of old age
Things I like
Item wear
Hunger/Thirst, while you won't die from these things your stats will be less efective over time. Maybe with a hard cap,while eating and drinking will buff. It creates an econemy for tradeskillers too.
Weather and Seasons
Day and Night
After looking at the uncanny valley examples i do agree they should hold back a little bit on realism. But i don't think pantheon will go that far. Some of those games basically used facial mapping to generate exact duplicates of people in game. Like for instance Death Stranding. The realism is a bit too real, but it seems to be one of the better examples of realism in gaming done correctly. There are more bad examples than good of realism in gaming being implemented. I think the only race we need to worry about are the Humans. All others will have distinct high fantasy features that will keep the realism lower.
I did not read all of the comments, but I am in agreement with some of the ones I did browse over. Having to eat and drink is cool, but if it's hard to find food and you have to eat certain types of food for better things, I think it's too much. I have also never ever been a fan of food buffs... please god, leave that to the bards and other classes.
Mounts should be plentiful, but they should also feel realistic. WoW lets every class ride all types of mounts, they just scale to the size of their race, which I really don't like. I think it would be nice to see a lock on mounts for certain classes, like halflings being able to ride "a large rat" but an ogre NOT being able to because... that's ridiculous.
I also feel like armor and weapons should be somewhat realistic, too. Not so much in terms of art design, but in terms of size. Like someone else mentioned, giant pauldrons just ... don't look that great to me, and seeing a tiny race hold in hand two giant warhammers also doesn't feel real. But I'm not really sure how picky we can be when it comes to these things.
OH, and a huge annoyance of mine is seeing female characters dressed in naught but a chainmail bikini.... sorry boys, but women want cool full body armor, too. :P
As far as graphics go, I actually don't mind cartoony graphics, so long as they're not anime. Dear god, I'm so sick of anime MMORPGs. Please, make them stop... lol. I'd like to see regular sized facial features, normal hair colors and hair styles (that fit within the realm of fantasy, of course) and skin colors that match the location in which the race is from.
Also not a fan of aging characters. I'll settle and be semi okay with the whole, retirement of a character, but making them get old... bleh, we already have to do that in real life. Let my game character be forever young and beautiful, lol.
There's a happy balance in these things. Go too far one way and you've missed something important. Go too far the other and you've become a survival game. I think there should be some mechanics that do add some realism, but at the end of the day we're playing a fantasy world MMORPG to get away from some of the tedious nonsense of the real world.
So here are a few things I would like to see that I don't feel go too far and add just the right amount of realism.
* Hunger and Thirst System: EQ had this and it affected your regeneration. If you didn't carry food and drink you could find yourself suffering from that oversight after battle when your mana and hitpoints went stagnant. Better food could add stat bonuses as well, but I would like to see it be an important part of your adventure bag.
* Weather: Many games have touted how weather would be a huge part and influence gameplay. Even Vanguard made this claim. But alas, it never came to fruition. I would very much like to see the weather and day/night cycles of the game not only influence gameplay, but also perhaps have different effects on different characters (think nocturnal creatures, undead, vampires, werewolves, stores open and closed, people coming and going to different locations, ect.).
* Resting: This has been a big thing in D&D for a long time but has never really translated all that well to MMORPGs. Medding between battles is one thing, but I think maybe adding wounds or skills that require resting to recover could be a nice dynamic. Star Wars Galaxies had a nice take on this with cantinas and the dancer class. But with Pantheon maybe adopt the SWG campsite and use of inns instead for recovery. That would allow players to set up a small camp in the wilderness to recover and maybe even welcome strangers to rest and socialize as well as provide a reason to visit inns when in town.
Aside from that maybe a sickness system where if you go trudging through a sewer you could contract a malady that can only be cured by a cleric or maybe sleeping at an inn.
Again, it's finding the right balance of what works and is fun. You just have to be careful not to go too overboard and end up becoming another generic survival game instead of an MMORPG. ;p
I also want to say that Vandraad made some excellent points that I won't retread on too much, but yes, I wholeheartedly agree that I want very much to ssee the cities alive with NPCs doing things and traveling from place to place living their lives rather than a static lifeless city. I touched on this a bit in my day/night and weather post above.
Vandraad said:I do need enough realism that makes things appear as if they could exist. If I come across a large village or small town, I expect to see farms in the surrounding area..lots of them. Yet time after time again population centers never have any visible means by which to sustain their population. And speaking of population, what I want from the population is movement and activity. There should be townfolk moving around, visiting shops, etc, not just shopkeepers standing stock still 24/7. There should be all the buildings and people needed to provide for a town: butchers, bakers, weavers, stone masons, blacksmithes in their forges, inns, breweries, taverns, etc, etc. It should all be alive.
Outside of the cities where there are sentient creatures that inhabit a fortress or other dwelling (think bandits or goblins or orcs, etc), again it comes down to needing to see those things which sustain the population. Where are the forges making the weapons and tools? The larders and kitches filled with food and cooks? Where are the barracks, training grounds, etc?
In the end, what I need at a minimum, is movement. I want NPCs moving around and not just standing there waiting to be slaughtered. Sure, a lookout is best standing stationary, but beyond that there is no reason why NPCs should ever just stand there.
I really like the idea of players needing food and water- drink to some degree like a drink every 60-80 minutes rl time.
Would encourage more alchamy options and recipes which is great for player choice.
Battle Elixers may contain water which would work as a drink.
I love the idea of only certain enemys appear at day or night or when weather seasons changes this would be incredible. Very rare boss spawns.
A boss yeti just appears as soon as winter snows come that was sleeping during the summer.
Or the summer sun melted a cave of ice and bears came out of hibernation.
I like needing aurmour repaired. Its a good gold sink.
A recurring theme appears to be that people would really like to see realism around the world and its inhabitants. I agree with this and it was something which I recall was mentioned by Aradune during a stream of gameplay, that it would be an integral part of the world. Climate cycles and even celestial events would impact the inhabitants and their activities and interactions with each other. In other streams, it was made pretty clear that we would see towns and cities with an active and bustling population of NPC's. Buildings would have actual use and internal designs (not merely facades stuck on boxes). This "living world" is what I think would really interest people. It then can extend to adventuring within the city. Again, this was mentioned on one of the streams in that they don't want the cities to be a chore which players have to go to just for banking and selling loot. So, yes, I am definitely in favor of a more active NPC population which changes over time, seasons, etc. More realism in cities (perhaps with some dungeons directly connected like sewers, catacombs, smugglers' dens, etc).
I am also for players and NPC's being more "realistic" in the spirit of D&D / EQ. The biggest draw for me to Everquest was that it was based heavily upon D&D creatures and appearances. I never had any interest in WOW because it seemed to be based upon something else and to me, seemed too "cartoony". So, as others mentioned, stay with this (as it appears you are doing).
Realism can become too tedious when it becomes a job of excessive micromanagement. Yes, we need food and drink so let us buy some stacks and let my character eat / drink as needed. I'll buy stacks of throwing weapons but don't make me move them from inventory to the ranged slot. I think the team has a good sense of this all.
I do think that there should be item degradation over time in order to keep the world from being filled by a glut of gear. This would allow items to be sold to other players, supporting a player economy but there needs to be attrition in order to keep supply in check. This can be a challenge to do properly. Finding a balance which prevents it from killing the fun whicle still being meanignful and fun. Perhaps having different tiers of items which can be "repaired / refreshed" by some process which consumes a similar tier item? (i.e. Tier-4 breastplate can be refreshed in a process which consumes another Tier-4 breastplate or perhaps 4 x Tier-3 breastplates.. or some variation of this.)
I think, the realism I don't want in a game is the one I would not want in real life.
Chores, paying my taxes, peeing or pooping, having a sunburn, beeing wet and needing to dry your clothes, a haircut / beardcut, etc..
All theses things we do in our lives because we have to, are things we want to feel free from them when in a virtual game.
For some travelling could be a chore but travelling in a game is really different that in real life. If we had to ride a horse on a path withouth running to max speed and avoiding other horses, I'd say it's a chore. Travelling in an MMO Imply going as fast as possible, or just looking at the landscape, fighting monsters, etc... It makes the whole concept more interesting than our casual drive to and from work schedule.