Spellcrafting from Dark Age of Camelot. This crafting class required you to think and pay attention through the entire process - no mindless clicking - and allowed you to plan customized armor for each player who sought your services. It was the best crafting class I've ever played in any game.
Kilsin said:Realism - How real to life do you like your MMORPGs to be, is there a limit between how much game worlds should include real-world elements and if so, what are they in your opinion? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Many good replies here to your question. I play MMOs to escape reality, to turn myself into something that is not possible in the office, at a desk, or anywhere else in modern society. I do like to cast a fireball, craft a wizards staff, make potions of healing. As long as the game mechanics are excellent, it will be a game I will play.
I prefer more realistic graphics certainly, realistic weather cycles, day and night cycles but certainly not matched to RL cycles. I don't need to take a dump, pee, sleep only at an inn or house when I log off, or take a shower. Food/drink is ok if there are mild buffs/debuffs but not drastic. I have zero problems with anything explained away via magic - instances are perfectly explainable that way, housing neighborhoods via instancing are fine. Hi level raid mobs magically gating into an otherwise mild level 5 area, etc. It is a high fantasy game, I expect and demand fantasy in it, but the mundane should approach the realism side whenever possible. Yeah, chain mail bikinis, anime, ogres riding rabbits don't need to be there and don't need to be explained away via magic.
Funny how nobody has at all moaned about the fact that a RL bank deals with money not goods. What a fantasy bank really is would be more like a storage locker. Yet, nobody has built that bandwagon yet for folks to ride on. I am perfectly fine with a bank continuing to hold gear and bags able to hold hundreds of pounds of stuff.
I like an MMO to have enough realism to make it feel like it's an alive and breathing world. This would include things like day/night cycles, changes in weather such as sunny/rainy/snowy, and ambient sounds like rain, wind, thunder, and distant animal sounds.
Other than that, I figure most of an MMO is fantasy and not realistic so I'm not picky about the rest. I'd feel a little foolish if I was complaining that a game mechanic wouldn't happen that way in real life as I'm fighting a dragon with magic and coming back to life whenever I die.
Benezetta said:Spellcrafting from Dark Age of Camelot. This crafting class required you to think and pay attention through the entire process - no mindless clicking - and allowed you to plan customized armor for each player who sought your services. It was the best crafting class I've ever played in any game.
Sounds interesting. How different was it from the EQ2 crafting system? I remember I had to hit certain crafting abilities at the right time to have a chance to do a mastercraft. It was much harder to craft difficult craft. If you were not paying attention, you would waste precious materials.
Ithaca said:Sounds interesting. How different was it from the EQ2 crafting system? I remember I had to hit certain crafting abilities at the right time to have a chance to do a mastercraft. It was much harder to craft difficult craft. If you were not paying attention, you would waste precious materials.
Or in the infant days of EQ2, death by forge if you messed up badly enough to have a critical failure. I think the forge held the honor of the highest PK NPC up until the mid-2000's.
Dashed said:Funny how nobody has at all moaned about the fact that a RL bank deals with money not goods. What a fantasy bank really is would be more like a storage locker. Yet, nobody has built that bandwagon yet for folks to ride on. I am perfectly fine with a bank continuing to hold gear and bags able to hold hundreds of pounds of stuff.
In fairness, 100 years ago banks used to be about secure storage of important items too. It's hard these days to find a bank branch with safe deposit boxes but they still exist. I've seriously considered getting one from my bank to keep some important documents and stuff (like titles and deeds) in.
Kilsin said:Realism - How real to life do you like your MMORPGs to be, is there a limit between how much game worlds should include real-world elements and if so, what are they in your opinion? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters
Ohhhhh now this is my kind of topic! I am not the norm from the look of things since I enjoy as much realism as possible. What others called tedious I consider immersive! Yes I want ammo for my bow/crossbow and needing to maintain my sword/armor, yes I enjoy managing food supplies when deep in the wilderness, yes I greatly enjoy dark dungeons where I require a torch or magic spell/item to see. I want to see lethal fall damage if you drop off a cliff, I want to drown if I stay underwater too long. I am perfectly fine with my character getting tired and needing to sleep. I am ok with day and night cycles taking several hours and having different NPCs appear for each.
The list goes on and on. Just because it's a fantasy game doesn't mean it can't be realistic, but on the other hand it's not as though I can't enjoy the unrealistic games they just aren't as satisfying of an experience. I mean when you go into a dark cave it should be impossible to see without a light source unless every race is explained to have night vision or something. The thing about fantasy games is that they have magic/supernatural elements so there are indeed ways to explain certain things that may not make sense in real life. I just don't like it how so many MMOs today don't even bother trying to create a world or an immersive experience.
I'm not sure where I stand on this.
Let's face it, the core of the game will always be extremely unrealistic. Killing mobs that keep popping and PC's surviving death repeatedly are so silly concepts that NPC's standing still at the same spot day and night or villages with no farms around them seem sensible by comparison.
The thread contains myriads of great suggestions for how "realism" would mean more immersion, and I'm all for that, but when I want to join a perfect group about to enter a far away dungeon I need to visit, realistic travel may be less fun than when I'm exploring the world on my own. On the other hand, it's overcoming obstacles that make it worth investing time in an MMORPG, so I don't know...
I guess I would just say that I don't think a game should have a realistic element or mechanic just because it's realistic. If it actually makes the game more fun, it's probably a good addition. If it doesn't...I'd rather have more fun at the expense of some realism any day.
Verisimilitude.
Realistic to the world you have created, not realistic to our reality.
Levels of "immersion breaking" has to exist, there is not way to create a fantasy world that will survive under the microscope of "realism". Making a world that is consistent with itself is more important for immersion to me few things are as immersion breaking as having certain expectations for the world and then have those expectations that have been set get broken for no good reason.
There's no such thing as to much realism! You can starve to death, Bleed to death, permanatly lose limbs, get concussions, get mugged by bandits and lose all your gold, spend weeks in a stockade, work a job, raise your own progeny and death drops all your stuff and delete's your character. GOOD LUCK! =)
Ruar said:
I love this post! Agree wholeheartedly that realism in environment is critical. As an ecologist, I tend to take it a step further and really analyze the geology, hydrology, and just logical layout of ecosystems in MMO worlds.
Realism becomes too much when it's there purely to cause inconvenience to the player's day-to-day experiences. I'm playing a video game. Realism in environment is beautiful and enjoyable, but realism that creates stress is something I have more than enough of in real life.
Gyldervane said:I guess I would just say that I don't think a game should have a realistic element or mechanic just because it's realistic. If it actually makes the game more fun, it's probably a good addition. If it doesn't...I'd rather have more fun at the expense of some realism any day.
Great way to put this. Yes! Honestly a good rule of thumb in general. "Does X feature actually make the game more fun? Or does its inclusion create stress that outweighs potential fun?"
"Realism - How real to life do you like your MMORPGs to be, is there a limit between how much game worlds should include real-world elements and if so, what are they in your opinion? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters."
0 - Holidays. No human calendar holidays please. If you must include them make them very unique to the races in the game. Like perhaps the Ogres celebrating sacrifice a human on an altar month by cutting out a heart. Or Dark Myr capturing a human and sacrificing them to an island volcano. Or a Skar ultimate soul quest by going on a blood journey by killing one of each mob.
1 - Food and drink preventing hp and mana regen, sure. Food and drink that boost stats yes please.
2 - Armor repair, sure, but just make sure that players can also have repair hammers for armor mending, sharpening stones for weapons, bowstrings for bows/crossbows, lute strings for instruments, hides for drums, etc.
3 - Aging, no thanks.
4 - Player services by class, yes please. However, Wizards and Druids, they got too much stuff to sell, players would pay them for ports. Rogues sold picklocking caches and doors, and removing traps. People would pay casters for corpse recoveries, rezzes, and buffs. What did tank and melee classes get that people paid for? Squat.
5 - Diseases, yes please. Just make sure there are city temples, player npcs at camps, or fountain springs outdoors that can cure them or make sure that player healers have access to spells that can as well. Like wraiths and other creatures that can permanently reduce a level or a stat that won't go away without a blessing, or purge, or remove, or cure, etc. Someone said tetnus from a blade, great idea mate.
6 - Inherent class or race weaknesses, yes please. I know you spoke of acclimation much like the Witchers mutagens and that is a good idea. As long as there are buffs or item enchancements that can help said class and race overcome them. Like vampires that cannot play in the sun. Someone wants to play with the deck loaded against them that is their chocie :). The Dark Myrr, sitting in a puddle of water or treading in a pool to regain life and mana faster, makes sense. A druid that goes barefoot outside to gain mana and life regen faster makes sense, etc.
7 - Weight/Encumbrance, absolutely. That really makes the use of spells like strength or featherweight useful. That also gives tank like classes a reason to carry a groups load and be the looter. Just make sure there are weight reducing items, spells, and enhancements that will allow non strength classes to loot as well.
8 - Conditions like paralysis, suffocation, stun, being blinded (cannot see), silenced (cannot speak), or losing hearing (cannot receive communications), mute, acid on armor, stuff like this should absolutely be included. Still remember the first time my screen went black and I thought my monitor had died, only to realize that the npc had blinded me. LOL good times.
9 - Reagents, yes please. I think archers should need to resupply, like the rogue that must apply poison, just as a mage must keep dirt, water, air, and fire on them to create an elemental the same way a necromancer must have bones, zombie skin on them to summon their pet.
10 - Sleeping at an inn. Man, this really could be done better. One game that made sleeping at an inn make sense was Pillars of Eternity. Sleeping helped recovery quickly from stamina based illnesses like fatigue, and also came with stats.
11 - Traveling. Look, I think that a road straight through a zone may endow travellers with a slight movement speed. So follow the yellow brick road. Perhaps, a stage coach, a wagon caravan etc would allow players a slight movement speed from point A to point B, but anything off the beaten path, lol time to huff it. I really do not like portal stones people click on or walk through, or flight paths, or mounts. These all kill every game they are in. Relying on the community brings people together. Relying on a game feature pulls them apart. Independence is good, but too much makes for a solo game.
12 - Mob weaknesses yes. If we are killing Fire McBurning Death, then I would assume that fire spells heal said monster, that cold spells and weapons would be ineffective, but perhaps water or lightning or some other form of magic would be effective. I really want there to be bane type weapons and resistant type armors and their accompanying enchancements.
13 - Line of sight, respect it. If I cannot attack through a wall/floor/closed door, or see and cast at a mob through a wall/floor/closed door, than REALISTICALLY, that frigging mob better not be able to either.
14 - Mounts ruin the game, but if people feel that running from point A to B is too excuciating. Make mounts available at a specific level and these mounts should be standard in ability and do not perform better than class spells or songs. Also make them specific to the race not class. For instance, I see a dwarf riding a minature horse and an ogre riding a huge one in EQ LOL LOL LOL. World of Warcraft got this part right. Put the dwarf on a battle boar, the Ogre on a bear or elephant, the elf on a unicorn, humans on a horse, etc. If people want to collect mounts because of how they look whatever, don't imbue the mounts with anything extra, make them aesthetic only. If you want to make them collectible, then have a skeletal dragon mount drop off of Trakanon, a turtle mount drop off Lodizal etc. Make people work for their collectibles.
15 - Keys & Locked doors, yes please. Just make sure that we get a key ring, because at one point, my eight slot bag was full of keys from the airplane, etc. I like the idea of word locks as well, that come with a riddle and a word scrambler like in Betrayal at Krondor. That way if youre not a rogue, or dont have one handy you can try and think your way past the lock. Puzzles, riddles, yes please!
16 - Eye of the Beholder series brought this type of game play to the fore front. Hidden things, treasure hunts, pirate maps, things of mystery. There should be illusions and magic doors, and hidden corridors that require perception skill, or a spell to detect. Stuff like this brings mystery to a game. Buttons and levers that open close doors or mechanical type traps would be wonderful as well. Things that have pressure plates, pitfalls, booby traps etc. Not enough. Just finished playing Legend of Grimrock 2 and loved it.
17 - Crafting. Nothing irritated me more than placing deliberate limitations on a feature that not everyone uses. WoW allowed you to first aid, fish, and mine, but not skin? Makes no sense. Secondary trade crafts like gathering must be a universal must. I would prefer being able to max all tradeskills on my own, the only limitation being my own investment of time.
18 - Skill ups. There is cheesy skillups like killing your own pets, or putting your toon on auto swim or you could do what Quest for Glory did and have an adventurer's guild where beefing up my skills is appropriate.
19 - Clickies, yes please. I liked how bard's tale figurines would summon certain creatures to fight by your side. I know that EQ made them into AA's but it got to the point where it was too much. Clickies make it more significant when you put them behind a rare raid drop or a long quest chain instead of just hacking and slashing.
20 - Armor sets, yes please. I liked how in Skyrim glass/mirror weapons and armor were good against casters absorbing their attack dmg or draining their mana. How to make this feasible out of combat? Bandolier from EQ. Jeeves and Argent Squire from World of Warcraft. Packmule from Dungeon Siege II, and a magical chamber like the Sanctuary from Fable. Having gear and weapon sets for specific encounters should be a critical aspect of character development. Like building up your arsenal of tools at home so you have the right item for the right problem.
21 - Consumables upon use, good for the economy, especially when they are player made. Arrows, throwing, potions, scrolls, you name it. If there is climbing, make grappling hooks. If there is darkness, make lanterns and torches. If there is digging, make shovels. I like how in final fantasy NES using tents made camps where I could rest up insta health. Dragon Warrior, if I bought a wyverns wing from a specific town I could use it to wisk me back to the town.
22 - Unique items. Everyone gets a spell book, but perhaps spell books should be upgradable. There is the one you start with that maybe allows ten spells. Then you could buy one from a merchant that allows 15, and a player made one allows 20, and a quest rewards another and mob drops another. Add more player customization. Like Lands of Lore. If there is time, even though I may not care to see the time, buying a sand glass will now display time. Buying a compass will now show me direction. Buying a map may reveal basic details of a specific zone, maybe these maps are player made, maybe they are sold by npcs. Buying a magical pen will allow a player to add notes to their map. A magic atlas may allow me to store all the maps I buy and the type of atlas I buy determines how many maps can be stored. Buying a magic journal will allow players to increase the number of quests they can have. Allow for these improvements, helps crafting, the economy, and more player immersion.
16 - Magic and environmental interactions. Im sorry but Fable and Divine Origin Sin 2 ruined magic for me. I liked how in Fable, casters could twist two schools of magic with their glove to create unique spell upgrades. I also liked how combinations of spells and environmental effects changed combat in Divine Original Sin 2.
17 - Pet summoning classes should be able to trap & tame their own specific demon if they are a warlock, their specific animal if they are a hunter/ranger, their specific undead minion if they are a necromancer, and then be able to name them! If a ranger summons the animal, does it come when a specific treat is offered. Does the demon come when a certain circle is drawn in chalk. Does an undead materialize out of the correct bone, blood, or tissue, and does an elemental respond to a candle, etc. Absolutely yes.
18 - Weapons. Spears, someone mentioned it, but polearms should be able to do distance attacks. When you look at positioning around a mob, it should look like the rings of a quake from epicenter on out. The tank being at the epicenter. The melee that are then in close range behind the mob with their dual wielding, a bit further out, melee with their 2H polearms, ranged attackers next, followed by priests, then casters etc. I also liked how the legend of Zelda had unique throwing weapons like a returning boomerang. Bolos, nets, etc. More invention when it comes to class style weapons and bonuses for using class specific weapons. Warrior with 2H bonus, Knights/Shadowknight/Paladin/Dreadnought (warlock hybrid) with 1H & shield bonuses, Berserker with axes bonus, Assassin/Rogue with short sword & dagger bonus, Ranger/Hunter with long sword & bow bonus, Monk with batons bonus, Cleric with mace & shield bonus, Druid with club & sickle bonus, Shaman with spear/trident & net bonus, Necromancer with scythe bonus, Wizard with stave bonus, Magician with wand bonus, Enchanter with orbs & scepters bonus, Warlock with Anthame & grimoire/effigy/dolls, Bard with instrument bonus, Beastlord with boomerang,whip, claws bonus, etc.
19 - Races. Love EQ1 Ogres and Trolls. Loved EQ2 alien looking Erudites. Loved WoW Drenai. For example. I go around EQ killing humans as a human so surely I can do so as an Orc or Goblin. Leaving these two classes out of my fantasy element was a huge blow for me during EQ, yet we had like five types of elves and three types of human. Dwarves and Gnomes werent terribly different either. How about allowing me to play as an Orc or Goblin like the World of Warcraft. So far, I like that your races (Dark Myr, Archai, Gnomes and Skar, big win for me), and that they dont necessarily look like some bad humanoid animal knockoff, like the Tauren. Im sorry but Sarnak, Ratonga, Kerra, Frogloks, Worgen, Pandaren, etc, killed games for me. If you must introduce more races, please try to make them less generic and way more unique and perhaps combine several features of different animals into one creature. Like frolok type with those fingers and toes but a turtle like pattern on back, and maybe the sleek body of a slamander? If you do a subterranium Drow type, make them a hybrid, vampire fang type with white hair, with spider eyes, and freaky spider like arms and legs, but robust troglydyte lizzard scaled body. Just be creative please. Expend all effort when making a player race because nothing sucks worse than finding an npc you would love to play but are stuck playing a run of the mill player race instead.
20 - I loved the EQ2 shiny collections and WoW pet battles. Great
21 - Classes. We have undead this and undead that. Its like everything from Necros to Sks, Paladins to Clerics is undead this undead that. Boring. How about demons now. You got the supernatural and the elemental, how about the occult now? Sorcerors, Witches, and Warlocks. Introduce, please. in game mini games make for great distraction when you want a break from the grind. My wife also like the farming mini games similar to Stardew Valley. Mini games really bolster.
22 - Upgrading Enhancements. I liked how diablo 2 used a cube to change gems, runes, sigils, for slotting gear.
23 - Instant cast spells for casters. One thing I loved about Stonekeep was that you had a rune staff, and that staff allowed for an X number of instant cast runic spells. This allows a couple of things, one, customization of staff itself via upgrades and two, the staff acted as a one use tactical attack when out of mana. Apply that to wands as well and you have range for casters.
I've already said my part but I just couldn't resist applauding this comment here.
KrasnayaSolnza said:"Realism - How real to life do you like your MMORPGs to be, is there a limit between how much game worlds should include real-world elements and if so, what are they in your opinion? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters."
2 - Armor repair, sure, but just make sure that players can also have repair hammers for armor mending, sharpening stones for weapons, bowstrings for bows/crossbows, lute strings for instruments, hides for drums, etc
This suggestion seems workable into professions or perhaps class/- or racial skills. And it would definatly go well together with interplayer reliability and player driven economy. I see this also work for higher level items/upgrade and new content expansions.
Please dev's make good note of this!!! It would give the game an even more all round immersive and logic experience.
A number of those suggestions feel way too inconvenient to be fun realism. I don't want to have to clutter my inventory with reagents to cast basic spells, have to stop what I'm doing and go craft or buy arrows because I've run out, or have to deal with "weighted" inventory (beyond each item taking up a slot) or encumbrance.