This thread demonstrates yet again how reasonable people can and do view what "being nice" means from diametrically different perspectives.
People that feel "any unoccupied camp is available to take even if it was occupied until a wipe 5 minutes ago" probably see themselves as just as nice as the people that feel that the wiped group should be given a chance to get back, and maybe even helped with buffs and rezzes. They probably *are* just as nice - differing definitions of "available camp" have nothing much to do with niceness.
And while this tread isn't *explicitly* a thread about niceness, it very much is one.
I see four ways for "play nice" to be tried.
1. Over time the community sets standards and people that repeatedly violate these developing norms have more and more trouple getting help from others. A highly imperfect approach. Powerful guilds may be self sufficient and not need to care what others think. If opinions split 60-40 on an issue like how long you wait, people can go either way without much pressure. Highly imperfect is not the same thing as "bad" there may be no better approach. I recall the famous quote along the lines of Democracy is the worst of all governmental systems ....other than the others.
2. VR encourages but doesn't enforce certain norms. To help players that want to do "the right thing" but don't know what it is". A "guide to niceness" rather than rules that will be enforced. Such as "we hope but do not require that if there is a group at a camp you do not pull the mobs at that camp and especially not any bosses that spawn there". Or "if a valuable item is being rolled on and the item binds to the person winning it - so that no one else can do anything with it other than sell it to a merchant for almost no money - we hope but do not require that only characters that can actually use it will roll on it". Just giving examples I don't want argument on *what* VR should consider nice to derail this thread. The point is that VR may or may not see fit to take this approach (very small likelihood IMO).
3. VR enforces certain norms that it considers important enough to spend GM time on. None of which will meet universal approval from us - as this thread demonstrates.
4. VR sets the game mechanics to not *allow* violation of certain norms - accomplishing the same result with no investment of GM time. If the puller owns a mob and no one else can get a thing from it - the mob can't be taken away by a killstealer. This may or may not be a desirable mechanic - that has been debated endlessly - I am just using it as an example of how a game mechanic can automatically enforce what VR considers proper behavior. Or when someone gets to an empty area they can claim a camp by setting a beacon. As long as the beacon is up (it would need to be limited duration and require the group to be actively pulling mobs with only short breaks) no one else *can* pull a mob within X units of the beacon. Again many minuses as well as plusses, but an example of how a game mechanic can enforce what VR considers proper behavior with no need for GM intervention.
This topic gives me an idea.
When you setup your camp as a group perhaps the group leader could place a marker on the ground...a flag. Staking your claim. As long as the marker remains you let other players know you are coming back ( if you wipe ). If the group doesn't come back, or the group disbands the marker can simply disappear. Let everyone know the camp is available.
Thoughts?
Porygon said:To make this easy... let's assume camps are respected in Pantheon... I have 2 basic questions.
1) You eventually see them, or notice that they wiped... how long do you wait before you claim that camp as yours.
2) You zone in and see another group at the entrance buffing. During a camp check they call the camp you want to head to. Do you allow them to take the camp that they havent even gotten to yet... or do you treat it as first come first serve??
Great questions.
Etiquette and manners are something to be respected, but so is the ability to get there and hold it. I could call a camp all day, but if I never get there, it's a wasted call. You need to be there to claim it, and if you wipe then you aren't cappable of holding it so you're out.
To answer your questions.
1) If they wipe and are unable to rez themselves, the camp is now up for grabs, sorry if they had "bad luck" (every wipe is never anyones fault)
2) As I stated above, there is not right to a claim it if you can't make it there. It's who's there is who can claim it.
Bronsun said:This topic gives me an idea.
When you setup your camp as a group perhaps the group leader could place a marker on the ground...a flag. Staking your claim. As long as the marker remains you let other players know you are coming back ( if you wipe ). If the group doesn't come back, or the group disbands the marker can simply disappear. Let everyone know the camp is available.
Thoughts?
If you wipe, I think it's someone else's turn.
Spluffen said:I would take it. In fact, not only camps but I consider any mob that isn't currently in combat to be up for grabs. To "claim" it like calling shotgun or licking all the candies seems extremely petty and childish to me. If I kill a mob and somebody tells me, "hey, I wanted to kill that mob" then I will ask them to wait for respawn and try again.
I don't disagree with you at all. I'm in the mindset that if I see or know of a named roaming area and see a group clearing or fighting trash around said mob, I'll give them until they finish their current kill before I go for the named (that is if they don't pull the named in their next encounter). However, I KNOW not everyone will be like this and it's bothersome, but not something I think we can or even should do anything about, it's just how the game is.
On the other hand I KNOW people will purposely train or pull randoms into a groups fight, just to try to get them to wipe. This IS what I have issues with.
Well first of all EQ had no camps, players coined it as camps. Second of all we only respected players from 98 to 2000, then it all went to pot when players abused situations to farm for plat. Now its all about RMT cash sales so anything goes.
So did the support go right out the window.....
so what do you think will be fair now with this new generation of players? people will do what they want. So i would say those rules would be nice setup ahead of time, then us trying to enforce the rules now on someone elses paid time.
Camps really only gave players the ability to farm the area for days, weeks and months over and over.
Who is at fault here?
Bronsun said:This topic gives me an idea.
When you setup your camp as a group perhaps the group leader could place a marker on the ground...a flag. Staking your claim. As long as the marker remains you let other players know you are coming back ( if you wipe ). If the group doesn't come back, or the group disbands the marker can simply disappear. Let everyone know the camp is available.
Thoughts?
What's to stop me from placing this marker at a nearby camp claiming more mobs than before. Say I'm killing the named ph at camp 2 and the 20 mobs at camp 1. I place the marker at camp 2 and kill all the mobs at camp 1 waiting for named at camp 2 to spawn .
Great question and I enjoyed reading the responces.
If you must err, do so on the better side of judgement. Playing these games requires a certain amount of patience.
Programming can help, but alas, greed will sometimes prevail among some player groups.
I would try to do what I can to help the first group that had a claim on the spawn. When they can no longer muster after a wipe or too many wipes and are no longer contenders, then it is my turn.
If I don't get a shot at it today, there is always tomorrow.
Have fun and play respectfully.
I don't remember this ever being an issue. Maybe I got lucky. If a camp was taken, I formed up at another camp or did something else. There was always lots to do. If a camp wipes they generally don't waste time recovering corpses and getting started again.
In this new world being created it promises to be larger, with more camping spots presumably. I really don't see it being an issue.
Blood.
You cannot lay legitimate claim to a camp you are not actively controlling (with few exceptions), getting wiped by your own actions and another group moves in, too bad, do better next time.
However, if another group trains your group and wipes you or forces your group to zone you should be able to run back and reassert your claim.
You would need to politely let the person/group that moved into your recently vacated camp what happened, how you were forced off your camp by a train momentarily.
Most of the time if there was another group in the area ready to swoop into your camp after you got ran off by a train, they would know you had been there and would probably give it back without any trouble. That said you can't get mad at another group for killing your camp mobs while you were gone, you were gone and they would have no way of knowing if you're going to return or not. (sometimes getting wiped can cause a group to disintegrate)
The reason I said you can't lay legitimate claim to a camp your not actively controlling is this, where do you draw the line, can a player or group leave a camp for a short time to go vendor loot trash or go get buffs from a kindly wandering higher lvl, or perhaps go burn down another named mob you heard had spawned, and then come back and expect the camp to be theirs, sorry it doesn't work like that.
So if you voluntarily leave your camp for whatever reason, you left, while your gone someone else can occupy and legitimately claim it.
That's how I see it, that's my opinion.
Tal
I think the whole campfire or stake thing is a great idea for holding camps, sure there will have to be some tweaking to it for it not to be abused, for one I think that if you wipe, I'm sorry hut I think it goes away, or have like a 15 minute timer on it, and while the timer is active the spawns can be pulled til you get back, also you can only get subject to being part of this campfire while you are online, so if grp wipes and someone switches characters to hold the camp it won't work becuase it doesn't recognize you as being part of the grp even if you are in it, (even if you were in it when the camp was set once you camp you are automatically remove from list once camped.) Mainly so you can trick the game into thinking the camp is still being held even though it's not. Or not really anyway, granted this is just for the timer, not on how people will react to it. Cuase for me if I saw the timer running and someone there and they explained what happened politely I would simply find somewhere else to go no big deal. I also believe it should take more than half your group and have the ability to clear your camp to place a campfire, and if there is more than one group there or more people than one group can hold than a campfire cant be placed. This is so someone who found themselves a camp but are by themselves cant lay claim to it and than start recruiting to clear it or a high lvl character killing content to low. now like i said before this would be for the campfire function to work.
If they wiped, then they aren't at the camp. If I see corpses, I may offer assistance with a rez. If I see no one, then I'm pulling some mobs including a named pop for 5-10 minutes to see if they come back. If they don't, camps mine.
I've done the call before I get there however I usually say OTW to X or something like that. If I see someone that I know isn't at the camp call it and it's the one we are after, then it's a race to see who gets there first.
I'm all about respecting camps and being fair but I won't be taken advantage of. Just like if a group is at a camp but can't keep it cleared ... If you can't clear the camp then you are a) undergeared for the spot, b) on a break and just have 1-2 around calling camp checks, or c) trying to take too much of an area that your dps can't keep up with the spawn rate. Anyway it goes, you shouldn't be in that camp or shouldn't be trying to cover that large an area. Respect goes both ways
It is goiing to be interesting to see how the community goes with this. Everyone has their own views, eventually something will be established. Me personally, it is fairly simple:
1) My group will rez them, wish them luck and go back to our camp spot. Of course, there is no gear I am so desperate for that I would want to kick people out (regardless of whether it is viewed as acceptable or not by the community). I am primarily hunting with a group of people for the purpose of enjoying myself, if there is an awesome boss mob with loot it is a bonus but I won't worry about it.
2) Yeah, calling out a camp spot you are not at yet is not really fair game. I wouldn't imagine many of the community would accept that.
asteldian said:It is goiing to be interesting to see how the community goes with this.
I think in Alpha and Beta this won't be much of a problem. We'll see early EQ style camp checks and similar respect and disrespect for that system.
But come release time when the unwashed masses flood into the game all bets are off. Camps will die as it will become impossible to maintain one with everyone pulling everything with no respect for camps. You'll farm that placeholder for hours and it will still be a race to pull the named when it finally pops, likely with competing groups trying to give you some unwanted adds to try and wipe your group so they can take the named.
This is the state of the wider MMO player base. I'd love nothing more than to see a return of the social MMO, meaningful reputation and a spirit of cooperation but I've played WoW and other games and I've seen first hand what the vast majority of MMO players are like now; They're nothing like we were in 1999. It will be a miracle if PRF can attract all of and only those players who fit the classic playstyle.
To me a "camp" means you are there actively killing/clearing mobs or medding up for a boss fight. So if you are at the standard safe area/prep area in the camp and you just haven't cleared to the named or engaged yet i consider the named your camp and should not be hijacked by another player/group.
There are certain exceptions to this steamrolling issue mostly centric around raid zones. If the Raid 1 is still waiting for members to show up/lack the power to complete the event then the Raid 2 does have the open world right to engage first, but there should be a discussion between leaders and Raid 2 should be nice and let Raid 1 attempt it as is or give up the spawn. Or if Raid 1 is busy fighting Dragon 1 then Raid 2 has the right to move on to Dragon 2 if the zone design allows for this. If there is a blockade that does not open until Dragon 1 dies than Dragon 2 belongs to Raid 1 and they should be allowed time to recover from Dragon 1 as they did not wipe.
If you wipe then you basically give up your camp. There are too many factors to consider with Corpse Runs and Rez'ing and group members disbanding that the next group waiting for that camp shouldnt have to wait for you to reclaim the camp. To me this is playing nice. You keep the distance, dont steal named, and when the desired camp becomes available you claim it.
If the named is a random spawn or a roaming spawn then they are fair game to the most prepared group closest to the named.
If you are at the zoneline claiming a camp, tough luck, i am going to let you know i am at the camp killing the mobs and you can't claim from zoneline. Camp Check shouts are just to get an idea of who is where, its not actually a claim of ownership. I usually only ever answer them if the zone is a deep dungeon so that they don't run all the way down to find us there and get all in a huff about us not answering a camp check.
Open world fair competition.
kreed99 said:To me a "camp" means you are there actively killing/clearing mobs or medding up for a boss fight. So if you are at the standard safe area/prep area in the camp and you just haven't cleared to the named or engaged yet i consider the named your camp and should not be hijacked by another player/group.
There are certain exceptions to this steamrolling issue mostly centric around raid zones. If the Raid 1 is still waiting for members to show up/lack the power to complete the event then the Raid 2 does have the open world right to engage first, but there should be a discussion between leaders and Raid 2 should be nice and let Raid 1 attempt it as is or give up the spawn. Or if Raid 1 is busy fighting Dragon 1 then Raid 2 has the right to move on to Dragon 2 if the zone design allows for this. If there is a blockade that does not open until Dragon 1 dies than Dragon 2 belongs to Raid 1 and they should be allowed time to recover from Dragon 1 as they did not wipe.
If you wipe then you basically give up your camp. There are too many factors to consider with Corpse Runs and Rez'ing and group members disbanding that the next group waiting for that camp shouldnt have to wait for you to reclaim the camp. To me this is playing nice. You keep the distance, dont steal named, and when the desired camp becomes available you claim it.
If the named is a random spawn or a roaming spawn then they are fair game to the most prepared group closest to the named.
If you are at the zoneline claiming a camp, tough luck, i am going to let you know i am at the camp killing the mobs and you can't claim from zoneline. Camp Check shouts are just to get an idea of who is where, its not actually a claim of ownership. I usually only ever answer them if the zone is a deep dungeon so that they don't run all the way down to find us there and get all in a huff about us not answering a camp check.
Open world fair competition.
Great post.
It is quite confusing for me to read this topic because I never played Everquest. In Everquest 2, it was very simple at least on a PvP server. It was a mix of bloody fights, courtesy, and common sense.
If people were camping a named, it was very obvious, especially if people were familiar with the dungeons. Most people you would go somewhere else, further in the dungeon to kill other named bosses, or you could chose to steal it. Usually, people would do that against farmers/bots... you would tag the named boss as soon as it popped. Both groups would spam their AOE and try to tag the boss. Some people will offer to invite people in group too to avoid drama.
Because I played on a pvp server, Qeynos/Freeport factions protected themselves versus ennemies, I do not remember a lot of fight about camps within the same faction. If they were from the other faction, we would fight them every time for the named and loot.
I hope it will stay simple in Pantheon. I really doubt it will be the exact same rules as Everquest because players from different horizons will meet in Terminus. I personnaly will use my common sense and try to follow rules that people teach me.
If I do not see anybody near a named boss, I will kill it. I do not understand how people would actively camp while not being right on the spot where the boss or place keeper would spawn. It is like being at the gym and using 3 machines... or in a crowded bus and using 3 seats... that is not right.
I will also watch and learn! I learned so much playing Everquest 2, most likley from players coming from Everquest. I am familiar with the vocabulary. I am pretty sure I can learn the etiquette of the camps fairly quickly.
kreed99 said:To me a "camp" means you are there actively killing/clearing mobs or medding up for a boss fight. So if you are at the standard safe area/prep area in the camp and you just haven't cleared to the named or engaged yet i consider the named your camp and should not be hijacked by another player/group.
There are certain exceptions to this steamrolling issue mostly centric around raid zones. If the Raid 1 is still waiting for members to show up/lack the power to complete the event then the Raid 2 does have the open world right to engage first, but there should be a discussion between leaders and Raid 2 should be nice and let Raid 1 attempt it as is or give up the spawn. Or if Raid 1 is busy fighting Dragon 1 then Raid 2 has the right to move on to Dragon 2 if the zone design allows for this. If there is a blockade that does not open until Dragon 1 dies than Dragon 2 belongs to Raid 1 and they should be allowed time to recover from Dragon 1 as they did not wipe.
If you wipe then you basically give up your camp. There are too many factors to consider with Corpse Runs and Rez'ing and group members disbanding that the next group waiting for that camp shouldnt have to wait for you to reclaim the camp. To me this is playing nice. You keep the distance, dont steal named, and when the desired camp becomes available you claim it.
If the named is a random spawn or a roaming spawn then they are fair game to the most prepared group closest to the named.
If you are at the zoneline claiming a camp, tough luck, i am going to let you know i am at the camp killing the mobs and you can't claim from zoneline. Camp Check shouts are just to get an idea of who is where, its not actually a claim of ownership. I usually only ever answer them if the zone is a deep dungeon so that they don't run all the way down to find us there and get all in a huff about us not answering a camp check.
Open world fair competition.
I agree with pretty much everything you said.
What do you mean by zoneline?
So you zone into a random zone and yell out Camp Check, the person sitting right there at the zoneline calls out CAMP A. You then proceed to CAMP A to find nobody there. You again yell Camp Check and same guy is at the zoneline claiming CAMP A. You then take ownership of the camp because he is still back at the zone-in point.
Basically if someone is somewhere other than the camp and they are trying to claim it they won't or can't.
kreed99 said:So you zone into a random zone and yell out Camp Check, the person sitting right there at the zoneline calls out CAMP A. You then proceed to CAMP A to find nobody there. You again yell Camp Check and same guy is at the zoneline claiming CAMP A. You then take ownership of the camp because he is still back at the zone-in point.
Basically if someone is somewhere other than the camp and they are trying to claim it they won't or can't.
Thanks. I understand.
Do people give name to camps? How does it work? Would people camp exclusively boss in EQ or also a good experience spot?
Depends on zone. Most camps had a name. You either set up in room next to boss or in boss room depending on how safe area was. Most camps named after boss or general area of zone. So Lower Guk had Bedroom cause there was a bed in the main camp area. Ass/Sup for assassin or supplier boss spawn. Cav/exe for Cavalier or Executioner. You get the idea.
During the early years it was always good exp and most people grouped for items. As time went on farmers would just camp for items. But early EQ had exp groups finding good exp spots and tried to stay near a boss mob to sweeten the pot.