There's been a lot of really great points and issues raised since I made the original post. It's been great reading everyone's views! It's apparent that a mentor system would be tied pretty close to how they itemize and scale the gear in the game, as well as how powerleveling is controlled or moderated. The progeny system and just everyhting related to alts in general is all relevant stuff.
I'm still not pro mentor system, but I'm beginning to see some mechanics and approaches that could make it not terrible. At the very least I hope they don't put mentoring into the game until a year or two post-launch. There are obviously pros and cons of such a system but the pros for it don't really kick in in a big way until the playerbase is mostly high-level. So, let's at least wait until we have reason for it if it's gonna be a thing.
One thing I also believe could help me get behind such a system is if it's capped 5 or maybe 10 levels that you can delevel, max. If this was the case I don't see a huge difficulty in balancing gear and abilities. They can just slash a percentage off stats that's appropriate and probably leave the gear, especially if effects on those high level gear items are level-locked anyway (like an epic weapon that only procs when you are level 50+). This also keeps max level characters from having access to any content at-will and therefore should somewhat keep the benefits of rolling alts intact. This would also limit the appeal in powerleveling a friend once they are within 10 or 15 levels of your own character. Consequently, this means if you have a lvl 50 main and an alt or two, you can pick whatever is closest to your friend and have a pretty good chance of mentoring into their level range, but not have unlimited ability to have your lvl 50 main be any level from 1-50 at any time.
This is just me spining yarn about this concept. Your thoughts?
I don't know, I think the pros of it kick in the second I out-level any of my friends or vice versa.
They don't have to balance gear and abilities much. Lock abilities that wouldn't be available for the level mentored down to and drop the skill levels to the appropriate level + any damage/stat caps if applicable. They aren't going to nerf twinked characters beyond the skill caps from what they have said thus far, so why would they be more harsh on mentors? Likewise, if someone wants to go experience different areas on a single character then why stop them? People who typically have alts will still make them and visit such areas on new characters and those who don't like alts can still go experience those areas on a main.
Dunlen said:There's been a lot of really great points and issues raised since I made the original post. It's been great reading everyone's views! It's apparent that a mentor system would be tied pretty close to how they itemize and scale the gear in the game, as well as how powerleveling is controlled or moderated. The progeny system and just everyhting related to alts in general is all relevant stuff.
I'm still not pro mentor system, but I'm beginning to see some mechanics and approaches that could make it not terrible. At the very least I hope they don't put mentoring into the game until a year or two post-launch. There are obviously pros and cons of such a system but the pros for it don't really kick in in a big way until the playerbase is mostly high-level. So, let's at least wait until we have reason for it if it's gonna be a thing.
One thing I also believe could help me get behind such a system is if it's capped 5 or maybe 10 levels that you can delevel, max. If this was the case I don't see a huge difficulty in balancing gear and abilities. They can just slash a percentage off stats that's appropriate and probably leave the gear, especially if effects on those high level gear items are level-locked anyway (like an epic weapon that only procs when you are level 50+). This also keeps max level characters from having access to any content at-will and therefore should somewhat keep the benefits of rolling alts intact. This would also limit the appeal in powerleveling a friend once they are within 10 or 15 levels of your own character. Consequently, this means if you have a lvl 50 main and an alt or two, you can pick whatever is closest to your friend and have a pretty good chance of mentoring into their level range, but not have unlimited ability to have your lvl 50 main be any level from 1-50 at any time.
This is just me spining yarn about this concept. Your thoughts?
I would love to see it out in the beginning, and here is why. I am retired, and I am probably going to be playing a lot. Naturally I am going to be wanting to play my main, I might make an alt eventually, but not in the start. Anyways, there are tons of people I will want to play with, and it will be sad if i have to wait to play with them, or blow past and wait for them to catch up because they don't have as much time as i do.
The mentor system does need to ensure that characters won't be overpowered at all. It would suck if i could mentor from 50 down to 10 and dominate an area. These are things they need to ensure are not gonna happen. But at the same time they also need to make sure that i don't suck compare to other level 10 players too. I wouldn't mind being on par with them, but im sure that's a very difficult formula to get that.
But this is exactly why i think it needs to be out in the start. I don't want to leave people behind, but at the same time i do want to go make other friends while i am playing and my friends are not. Now, from the sounds of it, i won't exactly be out leveling by loads at the start. It sounds like exp is gonna be a long grind, just by what they are saying from the streams, but at the same time, if it isn't like that, and im 10 levels higher than my friend and he can't get exp with me, then it will be sad to not have a mentor system in place.
Everquest tried implementing an alt/regroup mechanic after the fact. The shrouds. The only time people use one is to open locked doors in chardok with the rogue picklock ability. For the mentor/progeny system to work and be fully integrated into the game it needs to be available on day one. I have grouped with a lot of people and i will tell you the biggest complaint. Not enough people looking for group in the level range. I cant tell you how many times i would have loved to hangout or group with other players that were advertising for group members but i was too high of level and not a PL class so i just sat there waiting till 50% to finish off the mob for them. I would gladly gain exp on level 20 mobs if it meant having fun and the exp helped to further my level 40+ exp bar. I would assume that skill levels would be halted but maybe some other benefit would appear from dropping down levels. Thats a dev system reward conversation. But to open up the LFG system you need to let people have the ability to drop some levels in a swift manner and join a waiting group. This will eliminate the hours of LFG i can almost promise. A robust and integrated LFG/ Mentor with a side of Progeny will keep groups full and active. Two thumbs up from me on swift group invites and lots of fun!
Edit: i also think that the level range of people you can group with should be reduced to a very specific range. The current eq system lets a level 40 group with a 60. This should be hard reduced to like 5 levels if the mentor system is working properly. You should be able to easily drop a level down if you ding to keep the group going. Or better yet.... add an option to continue as the same level or continue on to next level??
I am a huge fan of the mentoring system.
A lot of things can be said about Everquest 2 regarding what worked and what didn't, but the introduction of the mentoring system in that game was just brilliant.
Now I will admit that the mentoring system did have it's flaws (a scaled down player was still a lot stronger than those he would be mentoring and consequently butchered most of the content easily, and this was a flaw in the system as far as I am concerned at least).
However, I actively used the mentoring system in Everquest 2 for many reasons.
Also going to a lower zone and help new players out by basically being a bit of a guide to help them through dungeons, to learn the layout of the area, where any nameds would spawn and so forth was also quite a lot of fun (at least for me) since I enjoy sharing my experience and knowledge with others.
NONE of these things would really be possible without the mentoring system. Instead you would have to shadow a group of players and help them from outside the group which is entirely different and distanced from the experience of being IN the group, part of the group and part of the adventure.
Again though, one of my largest critcisms of the mentoring system in EQ2 was the fact that scaled down players were still too powerful for the content they scaled down to, which often defeated the purpose of scaling down to play with lower levels since you ended up just dragging them along while obliterating any challenges. To me the primary two points of scaling down to a lower level is a) being able to play with lower levels (as outlined in the items above) b) experiencing the content for the level at the same difficulty and challenge as those you scale down to.
So I am hopeful for the mentoring system in Pantheon and I just hope they take into consideration the above point of mentoring / scaling down making the scaled down player too powerful. The strength and boon of having a mentored player in a group shouldn't be that they are just obliterating any challenges, but the personal experience of the player (knowing what the dungeon looks like, where nameds spawn, what and where items drop, how to complete quests in the area) and of course more knowledge about the class they play and how to play it better than what a new player might (plus also knowing better how their own class interacts with other classes).
That's my take on mentoring anyhow.
It was one of the best features in Everquest 2 in my opinion (despite aforementioned flaw). (sidenote: housing system was my 2nd favorite thing in EQ2).
Dunlen said:At the very least I hope they don't put mentoring into the game until a year or two post-launch. There are obviously pros and cons of such a system but the pros for it don't really kick in in a big way until the playerbase is mostly high-level. So, let's at least wait until we have reason for it if it's gonna be a thing.
The thing is there is a massive hump for Pantheon to overcome if we want to enjoy a good level of success. I do believe there are a *lot* more players out there than simply those still playing EQ, but there are also a *lot* of potential players out there that will play a trial and be put off by the relatively high learning curve or at least the relatively high difficulty of Pantheon compared to other modern MMOs.
Various VR staff have said it many times in various ways: they are going to be relying on 'the community' to rally together and help each other. The experienced players will be rampaging through those earlier levels and probably on several alts and new players will perhaps struggle and be put off when they realise they are struggling compared to others.
The mentor system (and other systems) will need to be there on day 2 to allow the uber-players to help noobs and to allow those joining the game at different times to still play together. If it's not there straight away new players that might have been helped will be lost and gone.
Dunlen said:One thing I also believe could help me get behind such a system is if it's capped 5 or maybe 10 levels that you can delevel, max. If this was the case I don't see a huge difficulty in balancing gear and abilities. They can just slash a percentage off stats that's appropriate and probably leave the gear, especially if effects on those high level gear items are level-locked anyway (like an epic weapon that only procs when you are level 50+). This also keeps max level characters from having access to any content at-will and therefore should somewhat keep the benefits of rolling alts intact. This would also limit the appeal in powerleveling a friend once they are within 10 or 15 levels of your own character. Consequently, this means if you have a lvl 50 main and an alt or two, you can pick whatever is closest to your friend and have a pretty good chance of mentoring into their level range, but not have unlimited ability to have your lvl 50 main be any level from 1-50 at any time.This is just me spining yarn about this concept. Your thoughts?
I absolutely understand your concerns. I've seen scaling messed up on every game that's tried it, really, but then I've seen group content and challenge messed up on every game since EverQuest, almost, and to assume VR will get it wrong with Pantheon is perhaps harsh.
I said earlier in the thread, I think the idea of going to a Temporal Trainer and retrieving an old version of yourself from a previous time (level) solves the problem completely and is quite nice lore-wise. No scaling needed, you simply get a previous version or your character with previous gear and previous skills locked in stasis, but able to act.
But even if they do the scaling thing, it *is* difficult, but *shrug* I have faith they'll get it right, or at least close enough that it's better than power-levelling, twinking or even over-buffing.
But even if they do the scaling thing, it *is* difficult, but *shrug* I have faith they'll get it right, or at least close enough that it's better than power-levelling, twinking or even over-buffing.
They have always chosen for themselves the more difficult, but more intuitive path. All the VoD's i have watched they describe scaling. Be it armor, weapons, or spells. So i would assume if you scale your level down everything else will scale down appropriately.
I'm for the mentoring system if and only if the high level character's power is reduced to the level of those he is helping. And I don't think the high level character should be given experience points for helping, since this could be used as a way to avoid the higher level (more challenging) content.
As for rewards, they should be things that are otherwise impossible to gain. Titles, chance of a pet dropping, chance of a special mat being dropped, chance of a special item being dropped, etc.
eldrun said:Would the mentor be the only one able to loot said “special item “ or such?
Yes. It'd be like being on a quest that the rest of your group isn't on.
I don't think the players being mentored should have access to these items/rewards because then there would be no incentive for them to mentor when they themselves are higher levels. Maybe mentoring should be treated as another form of progression in the end-game.
manofyesterday said:eldrun said:Would the mentor be the only one able to loot said “special item “ or such?
Yes. It'd be like being on a quest that the rest of your group isn't on.
I don't think the players being mentored should have access to these items/rewards because then there would be no incentive for them to mentor when they themselves are higher levels. Maybe mentoring should be treated as another form of progression in the end-game.
I never really got why we need to give these incentives for helping out the community in a game like pantheon. Isn’t helpin out your friend or new players enough? Or like going through a dungeon you missed before with different story arc a good enough incentive?
I suppose that’s just my viewpoint and I could be very wrong.
eldrun said:manofyesterday said:eldrun said:Would the mentor be the only one able to loot said “special item “ or such?
Yes. It'd be like being on a quest that the rest of your group isn't on.
I don't think the players being mentored should have access to these items/rewards because then there would be no incentive for them to mentor when they themselves are higher levels. Maybe mentoring should be treated as another form of progression in the end-game.
I never really got why we need to give these incentives for helping out the community in a game like pantheon. Isn’t helpin out your friend or new players enough? Or like going through a dungeon you missed before with different story arc a good enough incentive?
I suppose that’s just my viewpoint and I could be very wrong.
I think you are wrong.
For most (unfortuantely), being a good person for the sake of being a good person isn't enough. For evidence, just look at the state of the world and the way most people conduct themselves.
It's more rational than not to believe that if the mentoring system has incentives outside of being a good person, then more people will use it. Even the people who are good for the sake of good will have more incentive to use it.
manofyesterday said:eldrun said:manofyesterday said:eldrun said:Would the mentor be the only one able to loot said “special item “ or such?
Yes. It'd be like being on a quest that the rest of your group isn't on.
I don't think the players being mentored should have access to these items/rewards because then there would be no incentive for them to mentor when they themselves are higher levels. Maybe mentoring should be treated as another form of progression in the end-game.
I never really got why we need to give these incentives for helping out the community in a game like pantheon. Isn’t helpin out your friend or new players enough? Or like going through a dungeon you missed before with different story arc a good enough incentive?
I suppose that’s just my viewpoint and I could be very wrong.
I think you are wrong.
For most (unfortuantely), being a good person for the sake of being a good person isn't enough. For evidence, just look at the state of the world and the way most people conduct themselves.
It's more rational than not to believe that if the mentoring system has incentives outside of being a good person, then more people will use it. Even the people who are good for the sake of good will have more incentive to use it.
I knew logically that not everyone is a great person and loves to help new players. I play on pvp servers so I’ve experienced this first hand.
Im just concerned that (part of, yes I realize some people want to replay content but the vast majority want the benefits and nothing else) we are rewarding selfish behavior.
A loose analogy to this in the real world is tax breaks for large sums of donations, sure you may be helping others but you’re doing it for yourself in the end, not the betterment of the community.
There will always be people that help others though and get nothing out of it other than a new friend and someone to level with in the future. I want to be rewarded like that, not with a new cool item. Although i understand this is a far fetched dream.
eldrun said:I knew logically that not everyone is a great person and loves to help new players. I play on pvp servers so I’ve experienced this first hand.
Im just concerned that (part of, yes I realize some people want to replay content but the vast majority want the benefits and nothing else) we are rewarding selfish behavior.
A loose analogy to this in the real world is tax breaks for large sums of donations, sure you may be helping others but you’re doing it for yourself in the end, not the betterment of the community.
There will always be people that help others though and get nothing out of it other than a new friend and someone to level with in the future. I want to be rewarded like that, not with a new cool item. Although i understand this is a far fetched dream.
I'd say that most people don't enjoy helping others for the sake of helping others. Therefore, if the developers don't provide an incentive other than "being helpful" for mentoring, then most people will probably not mentor. On the other hand, if an incentive is provided, then more people will probably mentor. Even the naturally helpful people who didn't need an extra incentive would find more enjoyment in the mentoring system afer earning their new titles and items. I'm more interested in results so to me this is unquestionably the better approach.
I don't understand this idea of "rewarding selfish behavior," since every aspect of the game can be characterized in that way. Should people be killing monsters and questing just for the sake of killing monsters and questing, or should there be incentive for killing monsters and questing in the form of items and experience points? And are those incentives rewarding selfish behavior?
Even if it is true that selfish behavior is being rewarded by providing incentives for mentoring, why does that matter? The end result is more people mentoring, leading to more populated lower-level zones and more new players being aided.
It's a good thing that the United States economy doesn't depend on people having good hearts or three-fourths of the population would have died of starvation.
Yes, being knitpicky and saying using a core aspect of the game such as crafting or PvE is in a way “selfish behavior”.
But, the mentor system in the end is exactly what it says, used to help the community grow and flourish, specifically the lower level players.
I suppose I’d be fine if it didn’t give you some large bonus. Perhaps like you said a title or an item (as long as it is balanced).
Dunlen said: Are nearly all of these benefits of mentoring being brought up not easily accomplished by alts, though? I know not everyone likes rolling an alt, it’s a lot of work, but so is dying in the bottom of a dungeon, so are epic quests, so is meaningful travel. VR is trying to make a game that hasn’t catered down to the lowest common denominator. This isn’t supposed to be a game full of shortcut mechanics designed to please the masses. I see mentoring as a shortcut out of rolling an alt and therefore a mechanic that will decrease the impact of content pre-max-level and decrease the longevity (“stickiness”) achieved by rolling alts to play new content, no matter how well they execute it. On an individual level, everything being described as reasons for mentoring are accomplished by rolling an alt, and whether or not you do so is your decision. I will be making alternate characters to play through alternate content as an alternate classes. Why do we need mentoring? If you don’t want to make an alt and check out new places at the appropriate level for them, then don’t. Play your main. Your choice. Afraid you’ll outlevel your friends on your main? Roll an alt while they catch up or go do some crafting or turn off experience by drinking a potion that debuffs experience gain. That would be easy enough to include in the game. I think me and those of my opinion will lose this battle, but I’m afraid of the negative externalities of a having a mentor system, even a “perfect” one, which is probably a pipe dream anyway.
Not necessarily. I had friends who joined later, and played alot that they outleveled my alts I made to play with them very quickly, but yet were not close enough to my main to group.
There have also been many times I was kind of in a funk mood, and didn't really want to do the status quo of my level, that mentoring down and joining a lower group doing some dungeon I used to love would be alot of fun. Not to mention I would be much more efficient as a lower of my main, than an alt which would most likely be a totally different class that I didn't master.
I guess I see the benefits of mentoring much more than the negatives if it is done correctly. Most of my alts were created soley to experience areas I outleveled while adventuring elsewhere, and wanted to go back and check out, and in the process I might be helping out some other players who have had difficulty filling out their group.
Dunlen said: Are nearly all of these benefits of mentoring being brought up not easily accomplished by alts, though? I know not everyone likes rolling an alt, it’s a lot of work, but so is dying in the bottom of a dungeon, so are epic quests, so is meaningful travel. VR is trying to make a game that hasn’t catered down to the lowest common denominator. This isn’t supposed to be a game full of shortcut mechanics designed to please the masses. I see mentoring as a shortcut out of rolling an alt and therefore a mechanic that will decrease the impact of content pre-max-level and decrease the longevity (“stickiness”) achieved by rolling alts to play new content, no matter how well they execute it. On an individual level, everything being described as reasons for mentoring are accomplished by rolling an alt, and whether or not you do so is your decision. I will be making alternate characters to play through alternate content as an alternate classes. Why do we need mentoring? If you don’t want to make an alt and check out new places at the appropriate level for them, then don’t. Play your main. Your choice. Afraid you’ll outlevel your friends on your main? Roll an alt while they catch up or go do some crafting or turn off experience by drinking a potion that debuffs experience gain. That would be easy enough to include in the game. I think me and those of my opinion will lose this battle, but I’m afraid of the negative externalities of a having a mentor system, even a “perfect” one, which is probably a pipe dream anyway.
Sure, all of it can be fixed by rolling alts, but then we are getting into the forcing me to category, where if i want to play with a friend meaningfully i will be forced to roll an alt. That of which, will probably never happen if you ask me. I don't like alts, I like playing one character, and that's it. That's all i want to play, but you are suggesting me make alts, where a simple system could be in place for those of us that don't want to make alts, practically forcing us to make alts, or just not play with our friends until they catch up. I'd prefer the system that no one is forced to use, where it's an option not a requirement, hence me being pro mentor system, if they can keep up, then i don't need it, unless i meet someone i want to help which could occur too, then sure I'd love to have the system for that.
I'm not sure what your argument against it is, as long as it's implemented correctly there is no downside to it, it's an optional system that no one will be forced to use. So what exactly is it that you want? To enforce me to roll an alt? That doesn't seem fair does it?
But like you were saying as well, on an individual level everything being described as reasons for rolling an alt are accomplished by the mentor system, your argument works both ways, the difference is, i don't have to have an alt at level 20 to help someone out, when my main could just mentor to him.
I don't know about you but I enjoy meeting new people, the mentor system will allow that. If I'm bored and see someone looking for a role i can fill, i can just mentor them and fill the role, giving more to the community than my level specific alt could. Now your question of why do we need mentoring? Well, that's answered, if some group needed a healer, and my only healer is level 10, and they need a level 20 healer, i can't fill that role, but with the mentor system i could be a level 20 healer and a level 10 group needs a healer now i can fill that role. All you are thinking of is me playing with my friends, I'm thinking of the much bigger picture of I'm bored and feel like helping some lower level people get experience. There is no downside to a mentor system unless it turns out to be way too OP like EQ2 did. But, EQ2 did have a nice system, just bad stat scaling and skill scaling, you basically became a god with gear and skills that's 30 levels above what you are mentoring for. If they can give the gear and skill scaling, this system would work like a charm and be an amazing thing for the community. That's exactly what i see.
The main thing about mentoring is the ability to choose your level. Or at least choose a level that is very close to what you want to be - like a 5 level seperator. So you could play an alt, or you could delevel to really close to the level you want to play at and still play on your main character. This way if you would rather keep your whole list of alts quiet, or you really like playing your character or that is the character that is needed for that group - you can play the character you want to play, not the character that happens to be the correct level. And all the while you can keep your alts seperate from prying eyes if you want to have some sort of anonymity or you can build the reputation of your main.
I will still have alts/progeny, but it will be nice to be able to have options based on the character/class i want to play and not based on a level. I remembered when i was leveling my rogue in eq1. I didnt want to play anything else so i would sit lfg and see all these groups i could have joined, but wait.... too high or too low.
Dubah said:I don't know about you but I enjoy meeting new people, the mentor system will allow that. If I'm bored and see someone looking for a role i can fill, i can just mentor them and fill the role, giving more to the community than my level specific alt could. Now your question of why do we need mentoring? Well, that's answered, if some group needed a healer, and my only healer is level 10, and they need a level 20 healer, i can't fill that role, but with the mentor system i could be a level 20 healer and a level 10 group needs a healer now i can fill that role. All you are thinking of is me playing with my friends, I'm thinking of the much bigger picture of I'm bored and feel like helping some lower level people get experience. There is no downside to a mentor system unless it turns out to be way too OP like EQ2 did. But, EQ2 did have a nice system, just bad stat scaling and skill scaling, you basically became a god with gear and skills that's 30 levels above what you are mentoring for. If they can give the gear and skill scaling, this system would work like a charm and be an amazing thing for the community. That's exactly what i see.
They gave some hints about gear scaling but all we know for now is how it will affect weapons : Weapons used with a low weaponskill will never demonstrate damage even close to their max damage, while skill, stats and probably some kind of ATK stat will increase the numbers you push and how close they are from the max damage. For spell the thing would solve by itself if you have to use appropriate level spells, but nothing is said about the effect of statistics by themselves (like, if you have +20 STR and 1000 AC on your gear, how will it be managed ? +20 STr will be a very very huge factor at low levels, etc...), this subject is however, related to Mentoring as much as twinking, as both will probably have the same results.
manofyesterday said:I'm for the mentoring system if and only if the high level character's power is reduced to the level of those he is helping. And I don't think the high level character should be given experience points for helping, since this could be used as a way to avoid the higher level (more challenging) content.
As for rewards, they should be things that are otherwise impossible to gain. Titles, chance of a pet dropping, chance of a special mat being dropped, chance of a special item being dropped, etc.
Higher level content isnt always harder. And if I wasnt able to gain exp for mentoring down and helping my friends theres no benefit for me. In my eyes, alts are a waste of time. And alot of people feel that way. Mentoring gives the people who play alts. And do not play alts a way to stay in touch essentially.
The purpose of the system is to encourage people to go back and play with their lower level friends In a way that would resemble being at their level. This includes gaining exp. If the leveling is done properly me gaining exp at level 20 should be fractions is what i would gain at level 50.
Porygon said:Higher level content isnt always harder.
In well-designed games it is.
For example:
Low-level content should have encounters requiring no strategy, no aggro-management, and no crowd-control.
Mid-level content should have encounters requiring a little strategy, a little aggro-management, and a little crowd control.
High-level content should have encounters requiring strategy, aggro-management, and crowd-control.
Of course there are other variables, but I think I’ve made my point.
And if I wasnt able to gain exp for mentoring down and helping my friends theres no benefit for me.
A high-level character shouldn’t be allowed to gain experience by going through low-level content, even if they’re de-leveled or are helping people.
But I agree that there should be some sort of incentive, which is why I suggested that there be special items that have a chance of dropping: titles, pets, dyes, etc. Or maybe there could be a daily quest that is given out which asks you to go back to a lower-level zone to help out. But the idea of a high-level character progressing to even higher levels by grinding low-level content sounds wrong.
manofyesterday said:In well-designed games it is.
For example:
Low-level content should have encounters requiring no strategy, no aggro-management, and no crowd-control.
Mid-level content should have encounters requiring a little strategy, a little aggro-management, and a little crowd control.
High-level content should have encounters requiring strategy, aggro-management, and crowd-control.
Of course there are other variables, but I think I’ve made my point.
Subjective.
I think that's part of the problem with modern MMOs/games and the whole "end game" mentality. It doesn't take a player hundreds of hours or 30+ levels to figure out how to play the game so why spoon feed them until high levels? By level 15-20 the game should be challenging/require strategy & teamwork for reasonable success.
Iksar said:Subjective.
I think that's part of the problem with modern MMOs/games and the whole "end game" mentality. It doesn't take a player hundreds of hours or 30+ levels to figure out how to play the game so why spoon feed them until high levels? By level 15-20 the game should be challenging/require strategy & teamwork for reasonable success.
What do you find subjective? The idea that encounters become increasingly complex as one gets further into a game? That's the basic design of most video games.
I'm not sure what your point is here with the "spoon feeding" statement. A game's encounters should become increasingly complex and thus more difficult as the player progresses. This is true for almost all games, even ones that are bad.
So why should a high-level character who should be in high-level zones with more complicated encounters be allowed to go back to low-level content, containing much simpler encounters, to grind out levels? That doesn't make any sense.
The amount of exp gained at lower levels is a trivial amount compared to those more difficult, high lvl encounters. It's all relative. The exp should scale easily enough. It might take 100x as long to gain a 1 lvl at a higher lvl by killing lower mobs while you were deleveled. I don't think it is a concern.