philo said:i don't want a gold star sticker, recognition, a pat on the head.... i don't want mentoring at all. Why waste time on this Now. if there is No option, and VR is going to Force mentoring on the game, save it for an expansion. I am playing EQ1 TLP right now. When i am on my lev 50 Cleric and i see Befallen looking for a cleric, i have ZERO desire to OP heal a lev 6 group.
Mentoring trivializes game play. imagine a "noob wizard" getting carried by a full group of super geared Lev 50's in a lev 15 dungeon. the mobs will be getting Demolished, giving the noob a false sense of the game. Next time he/she get a group with a bunch of ill equiped noobs, like themselves, in the Same dungeon, and they die 1 or 2 times because mobs are a lot tougher, they will rage quit the "normal" group because they "suck"
you don't want people labelled as "sucks" in a game where Reputation matters. A LOT
By your description there seems to be some misunderstanding of how the mentor system will work.
Are you saying that 5 raid geared lev 50's can't mentor down to lev 10 and take a Real level 10 thru a lev 10 dungeon?
Flapp said:philo said:
The Mentor System is voluntary although there will be incentives to mentor, giving your character certain advantages (points, recognition, and other rewards – the details are TBD). We want to encourage people to help new players.
i don't want a gold star sticker, recognition, a pat on the head.... i don't want mentoring at all. Why waste time on this Now. if there is No option, and VR is going to Force mentoring on the game, save it for an expansion. I am playing EQ1 TLP right now. When i am on my lev 50 Cleric and i see Befallen looking for a cleric, i have ZERO desire to OP heal a lev 6 group.
Mentoring trivializes game play. imagine a "noob wizard" getting carried by a full group of super geared Lev 50's in a lev 15 dungeon. the mobs will be getting Demolished, giving the noob a false sense of the game. Next time he/she get a group with a bunch of ill equiped noobs, like themselves, in the Same dungeon, and they die 1 or 2 times because mobs are a lot tougher, they will rage quit the "normal" group because they "suck"
you don't want people labelled as "sucks" in a game where Reputation matters. A LOT
Another issue will be a group of higher levels camping lower level mobs try to "gear their alt" that's being boxed ...so many reason why mentoring sucks.... go mentor in EQ2 and tell me mentoring is "good"... doesn't matter, nothing will alter my opinion on this subject. mentoring is bad for the game.
Sorry matey, I think you need to read a bit more up on the conversation that is being had here and the system as VR have discussed it before laying out your scenario. You are thinking of a different games take on mentoring. VR are going to scale to ensure content is not trivialised. Thats the key you are missing. Of course while testing they will fine tune this and you should voice your concern about the OP nature of mentoring then. But currently the aim is NOT to trivialise content and not to make it an avenue for steamrolling your newbie friend through the world of Terminus.
Flapp said:i don't want a gold star sticker, recognition, a pat on the head.... i don't want mentoring at all. Why waste time on this Now. if there is No option, and VR is going to Force mentoring on the game, save it for an expansion. I am playing EQ1 TLP right now. When i am on my lev 50 Cleric and i see Befallen looking for a cleric, i have ZERO desire to OP heal a lev 6 group.
Mentoring trivializes game play. imagine a "noob wizard" getting carried by a full group of super geared Lev 50's in a lev 15 dungeon. the mobs will be getting Demolished, giving the noob a false sense of the game. Next time he/she get a group with a bunch of ill equiped noobs, like themselves, in the Same dungeon, and they die 1 or 2 times because mobs are a lot tougher, they will rage quit the "normal" group because they "suck"
you don't want people labelled as "sucks" in a game where Reputation matters. A LOT
philo said:By your description there seems to be some misunderstanding of how the mentor system will work.
Are you saying that 5 raid geared lev 50's can't mentor down to lev 10 and take a Real level 10 thru a lev 10 dungeon?
I recommend you read through some older mentor system threads. It doesn't trivialize gameplay unless it is poorly implemented.
TLP is not a very good basis for comparison. Heck, people often talk about how P99 is so different than early EQ and TLP is even further. It seems like maybe your TLP experience has tainted your view. Know that it doesn't have to be like that.
philo i know they plan to "scale" so its not trivial. it will not work. EQ2 scaled too. it was a train wreck.
GW2 scaled everything. it did not work.
i promise you. they've not reinvented the wheel here. mentoring will not work. it will trivialize in the scenerio above. guilds will do just what i said to "gear" guildies.
brad already said, when you mentor down, you WILL be stronger than a non mentored of the same lev. now imagine 5 level 50 raid geared mentors in with a noob. trivialized...
At this point, with a lot of things, we have to have faith that it will be balanced well when it is implemented.
I'm ok with mentor players being slightly stronger than the average player but it is about balance. Content shouldn't be trivial.
On the bright side, those games you mention, EQ2, TLPs, GW2 etc are all made in the vein of games with trivial content. In those games trivial content isn't considered as much of a negative as it will be in Pantheon if it ends up being as advertised.
It is not impossible for a mentor system to be added that doesn't trivialize content regardless of your experience with other, current games. I'm sure your input on the balance will be beneficial during testing.
Flapp said:brad already said, when you mentor down, you WILL be stronger than a non mentored of the same lev.
Thats interesting, do you remember when that was? It will be interesting to see to what degree upon testing, and at that point, wew should definitely wave the flag for it being OP if it is the case during testing.
I remember hearing that they were considering a system where the game does a "snapshot" of some sort each time you level up, and when you mentor in the future you revert to that original snapshot state. I'm not exactly sure how that would be pulled off gear-wise but I could see it affecting skills/abilities or other forms of progression. I wouldn't worry too much about mentoring being OP.
Flapp said:philo i know they plan to "scale" so its not trivial. it will not work. EQ2 scaled too. it was a train wreck.
GW2 scaled everything. it did not work.
i promise you. they've not reinvented the wheel here. mentoring will not work. it will trivialize in the scenerio above. guilds will do just what i said to "gear" guildies.
brad already said, when you mentor down, you WILL be stronger than a non mentored of the same lev. now imagine 5 level 50 raid geared mentors in with a noob. trivialized...
And it would be better for them to send a single level 50 into the dungeon and power level their guild buddies?
Even if they get the scaling a bit out it would be better than power-levelling and probably not as powerful as twinking. At least mentoring gives a more legit alternative.
Where did Brad say "when you mentor down, you WILL be stronger than a non mentored of the same lev"? The FAQ says "there will be incentives to mentor, giving your character certain advantages (points, recognition, and other rewards". Nothing about power. It could even be that you will "assume the character you were at that lower level" which means your high level powers and gear is immaterial.
I previously hadn't actually taken in the bit about re-loading a save from that level. I think an NPC that brings back an old version of you, putting the current one in stasis would be perfect.
This issue is no different to many, many others. We are trusting VR to make a good job of it and not make the mistakes that other games have.
It's understandable to be sceptical of mechanics that have failed in the past, but basing your beliefs on assuming the worst of VR's abilities to get it right is a bit depressing.
oneADseven said:I remember hearing that they were considering a system where the game does a "snapshot" of some sort each time you level up, and when you mentor in the future you revert to that original snapshot state. I'm not exactly sure how that would be pulled off gear-wise but I could see it affecting skills/abilities or other forms of progression. I wouldn't worry too much about mentoring being OP.
It think as long as it locks your mentoring character in a temporal stasis (No looting or need to eat/drink. All your items become no drop. That kind of thing) then it would be the perfect solution and a visit to the Temporal Training NPC to swap you for an old version of you for a while is not too hard a sell.
The challenges inherent in making a good scaling system for mentoring when characters have vastly different gear and achievements as well as personalized UI is one of the main reasons I think the mentor system should trigger a generic character and UI.
An example would be that a level 25 group needs a healer but can’t find one. There is a level 40 cleric, a fresh level 50 cleric and a fully raid geared cleric that are all willing to mentor down and play with the level 25 group. All three clerics will downgrade into the exact same character sheet with all the appropriate abilities and skills as well as an average equipment value of other level 25 clerics without including level inappropriate twink gear.
Now an actual level 25 cleric could be twinked and be better for the group than a mentored high level cleric but if they have terrible gear then they might be a little worse. I hope that the effect of twink gear is significantly dampened compared to p99 such that maybe items scale or certain stats are capped by level so that even if you have a breastplate with 1000 ac at level 25 your AC from items is capped at 300 so the remaining 700 is wasted as well as the armor from all other pieces.
Nicely worded initial post with a lot of thought going into it. I do not have to agree to appreciate that.
I share the concern about mentoring - I have never played a MMO where mentored characters actually weren't more powerful by a large margin than non-mentored characters at the level they were mentored down to. If Brad has said that this will be the case in Pantheon too it is disappointing.
Mentoring should not be eliminated - in a game with the goals of Pantheon it is very important to allow people of differing levels to group together. On the other hand there are many different ways to implement it.
Having lower level content trivialized for people mentoring down doesn't concern me. If they want a real challenge at that level there is a simple way to get it - create new characters.
What *does* concern me is the ability to power-level friends and guildmates. Worse yet, to power-level strangers in exchange for payment. PL spam can be as bad as gold seller spam. No one should be able to get from level 10 to level 30 in a few days because they have friends that help them - or pay for help. No one should be able to get gear that will make content trivial because others quickly ran them through a set of dungeons/raids that were designed to take weeks of effort at-level.
Making mentored high-levels no more powerful than they had been at the original level is difficult - scaling down gear and abilities *just* the right amount isn't trivial. If Brad has said it isn't going to happen let's focus on alternatives.
Simple, easy to implement and obvious alternatives are there. None is perfect but all are better than letting Pantheon become a PL circus.
Reduce experience earned a *lot* for the character(s) at the proper level. Having fun with friends who are higher level is good but no need for you to level faster than you would with friends of the same level. Maybe getting 10% of normal experience will mean no matter how fast people race you through piles of dead mobs you will get no more experience per minute than you could have gotten without them.
Do not allow any particularly good items to drop if anyone in the group has a significantly higher "real" level. Again, grouping should be for fun not to turn you into an over-geared underchallenged character for content at your own level.
oneADseven said:I remember hearing that they were considering a system where the game does a "snapshot" of some sort each time you level up, and when you mentor in the future you revert to that original snapshot state. I'm not exactly sure how that would be pulled off gear-wise but I could see it affecting skills/abilities or other forms of progression. I wouldn't worry too much about mentoring being OP.
I mean, if they could somehow revert you to the exact character you were at a specific level that would be outstanding. At first I didn't like the locked inventory/no looting ideas others have put forth here, but I guess they'd have to do that if they went this route.
I'm surprised to find anyone vehemently against this system. The more ways they give you to bring new friends into a game the better, I think. If you want to use the mentoring system to drop down to a friend's level, you can do that. If you'd rather make a twink alt to level with your friend, you can still do that. If you'd rather twink your friend directly and PL him (or camp things with him...or do quests with him) with your high level character, you can still do that. If you'd rather not help your friend at all and just tell him he has to catch up, well, you can still do that, too.
Trasak said:
Mentoring both down and back up can only be done at specific NPCs in cities.
Great idea.
Dubah said:Well, EQ2 didn't do it right if you ask me. It was a good system, but in EQ2 you were way overpowered and able to de level down 5 levels without anyone nearby. Which meant I could have been a perma level 10 taking on level 20 stuff, which was easy because they didn't mitigate the stats right either. Not only that but they left the skills available. I think mentoring in this system should give you the skills and abilities that a level 20 would have if you wanted to mentor a level 20.
As far as roleplaying goes, I don't use it. But I don't see how it doesn't fit a roleplaying type thing. This is the way I see the mentor system, it's like being an intern. You are mentoring a higher level person to gain experience and a basic knowledge of how they do things. Such as lawyers, they take apprentices all the time and the lawyer mentors them so they can learn how to be better lawyers. You're saying that system messes up the roles in our world? That this system is useless?
Now returning to normal level out of nowhere, ok, I can see this point. They do need to implement some kind of system to prevent that, like you can't unmentor unless you zone or die would be worth it to fix this concern.
Some people could choose to powerlevel and all that, but what about rogues that want to help their friends out? They can't powerlevel. So you're basically saying because you want to own the market on powerleveling no one should be able to mentor? Doesn't sound fair to me, it sounds like the point you are trying to make tho. Maybe some level 10 has a group and can't find a tank, and I'm doing nothing at max level as a warrior and said "hey, i guess I'll go make some friends til these guys find a tank", and all of this possible because of the mentor system.
Now, my last point, what does any of this have to do with alts? I don't like alts, I have never played a game and completed an alt. I would honestly prefer this system over making an alt. What about people like me? They don't deserve a second chance as a newb without having to completely restart?
Don't get me wrong, but most of your points seem pretty self centered, and not caring about why this system would be good for the community, but looking at it as why this system would be bad for you. I like the system, and I look forward to it.
What's next?
Great point (highlighted), and great post altogether.
There's been a lot of great posts in this discussion, so rather than trying to respond to anyone I'll just post my thoughts.
First - I think there are factors that drive a need for mentoring systems. EQ got by just fine for years without a mentoring system, because progression was slow, because it was very group focused, and because the difficulty of encounters was high enough that you could group with someone within a 5-7 level range of you and still be effective/challenged in the fights.
However, eventually, EQ *did* need a mentoring system. Why? Because too much of the playerbase was pooled at high levels, and lower level people (or alts) really couldn't find enough players in their own level range to group with.
As a level based game, Pantheon will eventually have the same problem no matter how much like EQ it is when it starts out - even if it were to take us two to three years to get to a place where it was actually needed, I think it's better to try to build it into the game from the start, rather than tack it on later.
Second - In just about every game that's ever had a mentoring system, gear scaling was a problem. You can scale core character stats with level pretty easily, because you're just rolling back the formula that created those in the first place, but when you add in all the stats that come from equipment, the math gets really tricky. It's a given. I think a lot of the concerns about mentoring come from this, to be honest.
That said, I don't think it's impossible to find a way to scale things effectively so that someone mentored down isn't at a significant advantage OR disadvantage. I think it's something that should be tested extensively, and will need to be carefully tuned. But not impossible.
Third - While I definitely understand the desire to make alts valuable and meaningful, the simple truth is that some players like to make alts, and some don't. If someone wants to travel around the world and experience every dungeon on the same character, and use a mentoring system to make sure they're still challenged by the content, I don't think that's a bad thing. None of us should feel like we need to dictate how other players can or can't spend their time, after all. Instead we should be saying "how can we make it so that you can do that if you want, and have it still be meaningful and challenging for you?"
Personally, I'll have alts. Probably 3 or 4 of them. Even before progeny is a thing (assuming progeny will become available at level cap). Partly so that I can see the world from different perspectives and take different journeys through content. And partly so that I can have characters at different level ranges so that a couple of years in, I can continue to meet newer players and help them enjoy Pantheon the way I did it when it launched - instead of telling them to powerlevel and skip all the glorious content to catch up to everyone else. So, I won't use mentoring all that much, unless I have to. But, if I have to use it, I'll be glad that it's there and enabled me to help someone.
Just my opinions on the topic :)
bigdogchris said:What would be the gameplay explanation for magically de-levling your character at will?
If you mean a lore/roleplay type of explanation, there doesn't have to be one.
It has plenty of in game benefits. Like aiding newbies, populating zones that might not get used much and lessening the high lvl bottleneck just to name a few.
Everything i have come across by listening or reading has pointed me to the entirety of the game is going to be designed so that things will scale down to appropriate levels. So when you artificially delevel it will be a noteworthy event as you will be unable to access certain skills or spells. Buffs will be deleveled as well, so regardless of who cast it on you the benefit will be for the individual character level. Will this work in reverse tho? Will a level 15 hp buff work at a higher level when cast on a level 35? And there would have to be a mechanic that would prevent you from reverting back to high level on a whim. Maybe require a zone out or a camp out or some other mechanic like an NPC that sets it for you. Regardless, mentoring will be in the game, but how it is handled/programmed will determine how successful it will be. People may just stay at the higher levels since the PL buffs wont be as generous. No more 25pt dmg shields at level 1.
I just assume certain mobs will have level appropriate triggers like how Naggy/vox would port people out if they got onto the aggroe table and were too high. So people would have to artificially delevel if they wanted to participate in the raid that was level appropriate.
Shucklighter said:I’m sure they can figure that out. Maybe it isn’t even something you do in game. Maybe you have to do it from character select.
Ohh, I like that. Basically as you level a character of a specific class/race you gain access to the generic version of that class/race at a selectable level lower than your own, say 5 levels or more lower than your own. At the character select screen you can log into your level 50 character "ClericDude" or you can select up to a level 45 version by the name of "Mentor ClericDude". Mentor mode has its own exp and inventory, or no inventory at all.
A second option would be scaling by instituting level based stat and ability caps. When you mentor down your stats are capped at whatever the level you mentor down to is capped at. Skills, abilities and powers from higher levels are locked out until you un-mentor, either at an NPC or the characters select screen. Stat caps would have the secondary benefit of toning down the effect of twinking but not eliminating the benefit as your stats would always be capped for that level until your cap reaches a high enough point.
They may even have it like a "shroud" effect that basically drops all your skill caps to that level and you have to do something to unshroud. And abilities/spells would be level locked. This could play into the progeny system as well. Any progeny character could have a "shroud" with a benefit from thier lineage character based on previous class. So a rogue might have a slight AC boosting "shroud" because lineage character was a warrior. This could also tie into the exp penalty bank tied with death vs deleveling? Once you level you become that level, but if you lose enough exp when you go to log back in it might lock you into the old level "shroud" until that level penalty is paid.
Edit: They should make it easy to drop down levels to mentor, but require a camp out/in to return back. That way you are only abusing the login server, but any damage will have been done while you dropped out and came back. So if you are camping to load up higher level rez spell - that seems legit for a mentor to do.
philo said:bigdogchris said:What would be the gameplay explanation for magically de-levling your character at will?
If you mean a lore/roleplay type of explanation, there doesn't have to be one.
It has plenty of in game benefits. Like aiding newbies, populating zones that might not get used much and lessening the high lvl bottleneck just to name a few.
Yeah I don't understand the reaching I am seeing here for "realism" or explanations via lore for mentoring. If we were talking a "real" fantasy world there wouldn't be levels at all...and there certainly wouldn't be a point in which someone is not in mortal danger fighting a giant, a wizard slinging fireballs at ones face, or even a small kobold sticking a dagger in their neck when caught unaware.
Mentoring doesn't have to break anything at all, it most definitely can be balanced (and it doesn't reduce player interest in alts at all). I'm sure they can get the data on average power level of untwinked characters at any given level and downscale/cap a mentor to those stats if they want to.
My issue with powerleving- often the resulting powerlevel-ee does not know how to play their class.
My issue with twinking- bruises in battle are avoided, that normally help you improve how you play your class. Like a mage with maxxed defence - cant get that skill-up unless you get hit. Twinked, you dont get hit, and then no defence skill that could come in very handy later on , in a raid (swings at you- and Misses!) helps cover an oops over aggro playing by feel with no meters- again learned from age 1 and gradually over time as one levels up.
But this brings up a side point about itemization- the gear for your level should have grades of vetter or worse but not so much better or worse in my opinion.
I see mentoring as trying to answer that problem of friends joining the game later than you- so you can mentor down and play with them. Its not PLing but raises a question, if this IS the case, can a mentored down player stay mentored down so they can level up with their friends who got on late? I dont have a problem with this provided its in a new area I havent been before. The only other answer is- sorry, make your new friends in game now, maybe you'll catch up at some time, because we/you are in Their world now. Likewise If I make friends at 10, and they all level up faster than me bcause they have more time to play? tough luck to me- I need to make more friends to accomodate my play time schedule (has happened many times for me in EQ). They are stil my friends, but we lose touch- only in game- just because of that
Manouk said:My issue with powerleving- often the resulting powerlevel-ee does not know how to play their class.
But this brings up a side point about itemization- the gear for your level should have grades of vetter or worse but not so much better or worse in my opinion.
I see that argument often but I don't think there is much truth in it. There are good players and there are bad players, period. Any decent player could get thrown on a maxed out character of any class and have a pretty decent understand of how to play it within a day, maybe two. I'm sure we have all met players who weren't powerleveled at all that STILL can't play their class well even at max level...and it isn't too uncommon either.
Itemization wise...I hope they don't make gear for specific levels. I really don't want this to end up being a gear treadmill like WoW and every other MMO since, replacing all your gear every 5 or 10 levels.
Perhaps, instead of mentoring bringing the high level character down to the level of the lower level character, it brings the higher level character far below the lower level character. All the way down to the XP level cap.
That is, if I'm level 15 and my friend is lvl 50, my friend would target and /mentor me. His level would go all the way down to level 11, the last level in the required range to still get experience. That would by no means trivilaize content. It could, in fact, make it harder than if I were to find a more level appropriate group.
If VR can make it both a boon on players but also a sacrifice of some kind, I would like that. Mentoring is about teaching someone the ropes of the game, or giving them a group member when group members are hard to come by. It's not (and shouldn't be) about trivializing level appropriate content.
There shouldnt be any difference between a mentor'd level 20, a progeny'd char that got level 20 on thier own but with twink gear, or a person that got level 20 without gear - except for a veteran/progeny buff. The game should provide level appropriate gear in the area you are grouping and all gear should be affected by skills so it becomes level appropriate. It should come down to maxing out your stats in weaponry and spellcasting and defense. By the time you are ready to ding - your skills should be maxed for that level. The only way this should be different is if you are AFK leveling someone - which is going to happen, but that brings up another issue. AFK level to max - then mentor down to get skillups because you don't fear death. The experience debt penalty should prevent you from getting back up to max level until it is repaid.
bigdogchris said:Shucklighter said:Great point (highlighted), and great post altogether.
What would be the gameplay explanation for magically de-levling your character at will?
And again, referencing my post, what would be the magical explanation for a lawyer to mentor someone fresh out of law school. You guys put too much play into these levels. All it shows is character strength. It's like a lawyer who has been practicing law for 30 years could be a level 60 lawyer, so why would that level 60 lawyer want to mentor a level 1 lawyer? It's not magic, we do it every day. Just because our level doesn't show doesn't mean it doesn't exist. All level is is a show of skill/time played. Level just shows how much adventuring experience you have, which is why you would want to mentor a level 10 to begin with, to shed some of that experience.