I kind of picture corpse mechanics like this... Or ideally to me at least. There would be corpse decay, but the corpse pops somewhere and cant be "rezzed" for xp recovery. But you would have full access to the corpse itselt. The equipment and inventory... Whether your logged in or not, should not matter. A certain time period passes (24 hr?) and your corpse zaps somewhere. (Entrance, graveyard, shrine, whatever, etc.)
Ranarius said:What is the difference though? The point was that you wouldn't lose months of progress if you choose not to go get your corpse. I agree with you that technically it is two different things.
Well I find the Question of corpse rot or not to be signifacant. We have confirmed Corpse run's and no item loss (Unless they change there mind, they are entitled to do that, revisit coin weight)
So that leaves the question "How to handel all the dead body's laying all over the place?"
Sure, most will be retrived, but some will be too deep, some will be from rage quitter's that never come back, other's will be lost. etc. etc.
I would like to THINK Pantheon is going to be arround for 20+ years... thats a lot of corpses laying arround
So
Are they going to Rot them and return items? (in this case Corpse runs are NOT required as they claim)
Are they going to move them to a graveyard? (still a lot laying arround for rage quitters, and Corpse runs are NOT reqired)
Are they truely going to REQUIRE a corpse run and the corpse will remain where it's at until the player uses the tools (drag, player summon, etc.) given to retrieve it.
If my Gear's not on it, then I don't care if I get it back... whats a bit of exp.. 10 kills? 20 kills? Just that much longer I get to stay and explore the current content before it goes trivial on me.
So
Are they going to Rot them and return items? (in this case Corpse runs are NOT required as they claim)
Are they going to move them to a graveyard? (still a lot laying arround for rage quitters, and Corpse runs are NOT reqired)
Are they truely going to REQUIRE a corpse run and the corpse will remain where it's at until the player uses the tools (drag player summong) given to retrieve it.
Oh, I already offered a suggestion for that, musta missed it. Not that this idea is best, just seems simple enough. You make it so the corpse stops showing up to players after X days. It only starts showing up again if/when that player logs back into the game. That way if a player takes a month off after rage quitting one night his corpse vanishes after X days and reappears when he finally cools off and logs back in. Or if someone quits forever the corpse just stays gone.
Ranarius said:So
Are they going to Rot them and return items? (in this case Corpse runs are NOT required as they claim)
Are they going to move them to a graveyard? (still a lot laying arround for rage quitters, and Corpse runs are NOT reqired)
Are they truely going to REQUIRE a corpse run and the corpse will remain where it's at until the player uses the tools (drag player summong) given to retrieve it.
Oh, I already offered a suggestion for that, musta missed it. Not that this idea is best, just seems simple enough. You make it so the corpse stops showing up to players after X days. It only starts showing up again if/when that player logs back into the game. That way if a player takes a month off after rage quitting one night his corpse vanishes after X days and reappears when he finally cools off and logs back in. Or if someone quits forever the corpse just stays gone.
Oh I know you did, pretty good solution as well I think. but that's not what you asked. Yous asked "whats the differance between Corpse rot and gear loss... they are differant. devs have confirmed No gear loss, they have not said how they were going to handel corpse rot, or not.
Oh I know you did, pretty good solution as well I think. but that's not what you asked. Yous asked "whats the differance between Corpse rot and gear loss... they are differant. devs have confirmed No gear loss, they have not said how they were going to do it.
I see, and good points. I'm interested to find out how they end up doing it as well.
I kinda like that this thread was necro'd, so-to-speak, because it made me look again at what was earlier mentioned as to the concept of "corpse rot"
What if corpse rot was an actual AE that grew over time, an aura would grow over your corpse over time affecting any and all players in the area with a disease DoT that is incurable and can break invis except within 10 sec of being dragged. this would encourage people to get rezzed and maybe create a new play dynamic and fear- for corpse retrieval.
What if instead of "rez sickness" (ressurection sickness- a debuff that lasted for a time while you recovered from being resurrected) it was instead called or considered as a partial zombification that could only be "cured" or given different flavors if rezzed by different classes.
For instance: cleric ressurrection- straight up back to life, some weakness because you come back with parts of your body dead that need to be cured, so the cleric rez is in two parts- a getting up and then a spot curing, maybe targetable as acclimation targets are targetable. Maybe as your arm falls asleep when you lean on it? so parts of your body are "dead" after ressurection and need to be targeted that you can find from acclimation menu screen. Druid ressurection: slower than cleric rez, you come back as a younger version of self (sort of mini progenized) and need to grow up into full self with fertilization over time. Unlike the cleric rez druid rez is complete, but the debuff is you have to swap weapons/spells down- say- 5 levels until you are grown and then you can swap back. Shaman ressurection:an idealized or dream version of yourself comes back for 20min or specific time, sort of reverse progeny you are higher than regular level, think of elementals on burnout stats higher etc, but when over you are fully rezzed but severely fatigued and need complete rest. food and drink can overcome some (like in a raid scenario) but to be fully back you need rest. Necro Ressurection: instant, but you are a zombie version of yourself, you gain some acclimations, like to cold, disease and poison but lose others, like to fire. lightning has a regenetive effect, Stamina is maxxed movement is slowed a little. the areas that are "dead" on the acclimation area are now stronger, you do not need food or drink however you get limited exp, no skill ups no improvements, all faction is lost except to undead where it is indifferent only. To get out of necro res state, you need to die and be cleric or druid resurrected.
Manouk said:I kinda like that this thread was necro'd, so-to-speak, because it made me look again at what was earlier mentioned as to the concept of "corpse rot"
What if corpse rot was an actual AE that grew over time, an aura would grow over your corpse over time affecting any and all players in the area with a disease DoT that is incurable and can break invis except within 10 sec of being dragged. this would encourage people to get rezzed and maybe create a new play dynamic and fear- for corpse retrieval.
Great Idea - The only problem I can think of is if players are offline while others want to resurrect them but otherwise I would love to see your idea ingame.
Manouk said:For instance: cleric ressurrection- straight up back to life, some weakness because you come back with parts of your body dead that need to be cured, so the cleric rez is in two parts- a getting up and then a spot curing, maybe targetable as acclimation targets are targetable. Maybe as your arm falls asleep when you lean on it? so parts of your body are "dead" after ressurection and need to be targeted that you can find from acclimation menu screen. Druid ressurection: slower than cleric rez, you come back as a younger version of self (sort of mini progenized) and need to grow up into full self with fertilization over time. Unlike the cleric rez druid rez is complete, but the debuff is you have to swap weapons/spells down- say- 5 levels until you are grown and then you can swap back. Shaman ressurection:an idealized or dream version of yourself comes back for 20min or specific time, sort of reverse progeny you are higher than regular level, think of elementals on burnout stats higher etc, but when over you are fully rezzed but severely fatigued and need complete rest. food and drink can overcome some (like in a raid scenario) but to be fully back you need rest. Necro Ressurection: instant, but you are a zombie version of yourself, you gain some acclimations, like to cold, disease and poison but lose others, like to fire. lightning has a regenetive effect, Stamina is maxxed movement is slowed a little. the areas that are "dead" on the acclimation area are now stronger, you do not need food or drink however you get limited exp, no skill ups no improvements, all faction is lost except to undead where it is indifferent only. To get out of necro res state, you need to die and be cleric or druid resurrected.
Too complicated - Turning dead sounds fun but becoming younger and body parts dying seems a bit too much to keep track of as in a group.
Interesting idea for sure. I think allowing other players to "quest" for your corpse might be heading in the right direction. Maybe you talk to an NPC in town and it triggers a quest that others can access and in turn that triggers them the ability to 'pick up' your corpse and bring it back to town. Maybe you have the option of adding a monetary reward to that quest to make it more enticing.
I'm sure there would be plenty of players out there that would check the corpse retrieval NPC often. I think I'd do it from time to time even for free.
Then the player would check back with that NPC from time to time (or the next day when they log in again) and the NPC says "here's your corpse"
Hmmmm......
Edit: Obviously this option would need to be a 'last resort' type of thing. Using this system would need to have a high enough cost that players would prefer to recover their own corpse whenever possible.
Ranarius said:Interesting idea for sure. I think allowing other players to "quest" for your corpse might be heading in the right direction. Maybe you talk to an NPC in town and it triggers a quest that others can access and in turn that triggers them the ability to 'pick up' your corpse and bring it back to town. Maybe you have the option of adding a monetary reward to that quest to make it more enticing.
I'm sure there would be plenty of players out there that would check the corpse retrieval NPC often. I think I'd do it from time to time even for free.
Then the player would check back with that NPC from time to time (or the next day when they log in again) and the NPC says "here's your corpse"
Hmmmm......
Edit: Obviously this option would need to be a 'last resort' type of thing. Using this system would need to have a high enough cost that players would prefer to recover their own corpse whenever possible.
Well, on my Necro Alt, I'm going to have a real rough time not keeping these corpses for when we get housing!
Zorkon said:Well, on my Necro Alt, I'm going to have a real rough time not keeping these corpses for when we get housing!
LOL
Edit - I can see how this could cause some problems.
I never had a corpse rot either, no matter how bad it got.
However, if they ever were to have some type of automatic corpse summonong or corpse appearing in a graveyard or something, then I absolutely do not want people to be able to rez from that to get XP back. Getting XP back should be a reward for making it back to the corpse in time.
bigdogchris said:I never had a corpse rot either, no matter how bad it got.
Ok this and the Plane of Fear example about the Guild leader hero taking the exp loss dragging corpses. People working together to recover from wipes. Even in examples where it wasn't a raid but a dungeon pickup group that is gone, I still always managed to get my corpse back, because everyone understood the gravity of it there were more people willing to help. I'll admit it's not super fun to sit at the zone line and /who, /ooc, /tell a friend, ask a higher level or a group as they zone in to help you but that's WHY death mattered. That's why you really considered the danger of what you were doing and that was on Top of level loss. It. Really. Mattered. :)
I feel like I posted this on these forums somewhere else a while back but I can't find it and it seems to fit here so I'll tell the story again haha.
One night pretty late I was trying to run from Kelethin to Erudin. I do not remember why, probably turning in some quest but the why isn't the memory that was created. I was level 16 I believe at the time. For anyone that played back then you'd understand what kind of a trek that was. I made it through Kithicor forest (which was quite scary!) alive and was super happy with myself. Continued through Highpass Hold and entered Eastern Commonlands for the first time. I was taking it all in, I was just in awe of all the new sights. The GINORMOUS bridge connecting the Karana's was a sight to see (back in the year 2000 lol). Eventually I enter Western Karana at night and I've got auto run on. I'm just heading west and still taking in the sights. I see some huge stones just slightly off my path and I think "cool, I'm gonna check those out on the way through!" I run past the first big stone and about 5 more steps suddenly DIE right in the center of a ring of Ogres. I spawn back in Freeport (probably was smart enough to bind there on the way through) and start heading back toward my corpse. I get to where I think it is but as soon as it's in sight I get attacked by the ogres again...and DIE. As I said earlier it was pretty late, none of my friends were online anymore and very few people were in that zone. So, I did what any sensible 19 year old kid would do and /petitioned a GM for help. He actually showed up in Western Karana next to me and I'm sure on the other side of the screen he was laughing his eyes out but he was very kind to me. He told me that he could not summon my corpse for me but he would teach me some tricks to get it on my own. That's the night I learned how to /drag a corpse in EQ. He told me to make a macro and just spam it like crazy as I ran toward my corpse. He stayed to watch as I did what he said. To my amazement, my corpse actually move closer to the edge of the ring before I died again. He sent me a tell and said "Good job, now do it again!" 4 or 5 more suicide runs into the ogre camp spamming my macro and my body was finally far enough away from the Ogres that I could loot it safely.
Some of you might read this story and think "Wow, what a TERRIBLE night!" But there was something about that event that was really great to me. Sure I lost some experience, probably even ended the night at level 15 instead of 16, but I accomplished something. I got myself into a bad situation and ended up getting myself out of it (with advice/teaching from a very friendly GM). Was I "happy" while all of this was going on? Probably not, I'm sure I was frustrated, tired, maybe a little angry that the GM wouldn't just summon my corpse for me. But in hindsight I can see how important it was that I was forced to do the hard work myself. I still have that memory 20 years later and it has actually become a cherished memory (along with many others from that game).
Now ask me if I have any memories like that in any other MMORPG I've played since then. I'll give you a hint, the answer is no. Sure, I had fun in WoW for a few years, and I had fun in other random MMO's for a few months here and there, but none of them created memories that stuck for a year much less 20 years.
I never lost a corpse, close once about level 6-7 in Dagnors Cauldren, But met a hearty band of level 20-30 that helped me retrive it then PL'd me to get no less than 5x the experiance lost back.
I only ever heard of one significant corpse loss, one of the member of my guild, and the rest of the guild all pooled together and outfitted him what he claimed was better than what he had for a lot of items.
I say "significant" because I did know of a few pre lvl5 that decided the class they were playing wasen't for them and just deleted instead of corpse running and started something else.
Zorkon said:Ranarius said:What is the difference though? The point was that you wouldn't lose months of progress if you choose not to go get your corpse. I agree with you that technically it is two different things.
Well I find the Question of corpse rot or not to be signifacant. We have confirmed Corpse run's and no item loss (Unless they change there mind, they are entitled to do that, revisit coin weight)
So that leaves the question "How to handel all the dead body's laying all over the place?"
Sure, most will be retrived, but some will be too deep, some will be from rage quitter's that never come back, other's will be lost. etc. etc.
I would like to THINK Pantheon is going to be arround for 20+ years... thats a lot of corpses laying arround
So
Are they going to Rot them and return items? (in this case Corpse runs are NOT required as they claim)
Are they going to move them to a graveyard? (still a lot laying arround for rage quitters, and Corpse runs are NOT reqired)
Are they truely going to REQUIRE a corpse run and the corpse will remain where it's at until the player uses the tools (drag, player summon, etc.) given to retrieve it.
If my Gear's not on it, then I don't care if I get it back... whats a bit of exp.. 10 kills? 20 kills? Just that much longer I get to stay and explore the current content before it goes trivial on me.
Legit question for you, are you a native english speaker?
Some excellent, thoughtful, innovative ideas here! This is what these forums are for!
I love the idea of making corpse rot and corpse retrieval more interesting and a more community-involved activity.
@Manouk Making Corpse Rot something that other players might have to 'deal with' in some way is a great idea. Nothing major but something they would *want* to help with because it's in their interest.
Also the idea of different rezzes having different aspects is great
@Counterfleche I love the idea of making a corpse a 'quest' that others can get involved in. If you want it quickly, then you do it yourself, but if you can maybe wait a day or two to log on again, then maybe someone else will have recovered you.
It's a 'lazy' way out, but since it involves the community and questing, it's worth it?
@Ranarius and @bigdogchris Yes, it's vital that if these other methods of recovery are added, then you still feel the sting of death. You should indeed not get XP back that way.
@Zorkon Lol. Corpse collecting. I like it. Macabre. It would be 'interesting' indeed for people to quest for others' corpses and find they are all piled up in your housing... Maybe corpses could act like a 'buff' for necros? Might be some weird emmergent gameplay there though hehe
I don't feel like players should be forced into running naked to get their corpses, players should always be able to make their own choice to cut their losses and move on to do something else.
I'd rather players keep their equipment on death but I am fully in favor of a heavier death penalty experience-wise to give high incentive to do a corpse run. Say 20% EXP loss on dying: 10% of that can be recovered by a corpse run within X amount of time and an additional 5% from a rez (so a rez in the timeframe would be 15%) which would mean dying at minimum carries a 5% loss.
If a level took 10 hours, this would be equal to losing either 2 hours worth or EXP if you cut your losses and gave up the corpse or just 30 minutes if you got a rez.
Counterfleche said: While I like the idea of a rez reducing xp loss, in practice it becomes a penalty which disproportionately hurts healer's because they are the ones who do the rezing, and thus when they die, there is often not one available to rez them.
But they can rez themselves when they get there (or get another group to help). And if people keep their equipment with the expectation to fight back to their corpses the burden of lazy group members who just wait for their rez and don't make the run themselves is greatly lessened.
Perhaps it is simply my bias but I really feel like the tone of the talk around CR in streams made it seem fairly EQish. I realize it's pre-alpha and these things all will be tuned and it's possible more elaborate systems could be put in to place. From what I gathered tho it's fairly straight forward old school CR that we are used to.
I guess I'm wondering that if it goes like @Iksar and others prefer (no naked CR) how that would be balanced to keep the sting of death relevant. I've seen people say ramp up the exp loss instead, but if it is easier to get To your corpse because of having full gear, one is less likely to incur that exp loss. Caveat here that it's not always easy to have a res available anyways, so then what is the point of even going after your corpse if there is no gear left on it and you don't have a res?
I dunno I really hope they have a solution for this that keeps death meaningful is the main agenda.
Honestly I dont think the question in everquest ever was "will I get my gear back?" after a death. It was always will I get a rez in time to get my xp back? That was always the hard part and the most punishing part of dying. If they guarantee that no loot will be lost when you die thats great, but that was never really a concern in the first place as long as you communicate with other players. Ultimately the harshness of the penalty is going to come down to how hard is it to get exp in Pantheon.
Serillen said:Honestly I dont think the question in everquest ever was "will I get my gear back?" after a death. It was always will I get a rez in time to get my xp back? That was always the hard part and the most punishing part of dying. If they guarantee that no loot will be lost when you die thats great, but that was never really a concern in the first place as long as you communicate with other players. Ultimately the harshness of the penalty is going to come down to how hard is it to get exp in Pantheon.
And I find this to be a common misconseption by those that acually tried to rush to max level. Personally it never ment much at all to me, and I seldom looked for a rez.
I'm the same as Zorkon, I was never bothered much by the exp loss (enough that I obviously tried not to die) but I never felt distrought if I didn't get a rez.
On the other hand, I did group with many people that would get QUITE upset about it haha. I personally just don't mind if it takes 5 hours to gain a level with no deaths, or 8 hours to gain a level with 3 deaths (or whatever that formula ended up being). Fun is fun!
Ranarius said:I'm the same as Zorkon, I was never bothered much by the exp loss (enough that I obviously tried not to die) but I never felt distrought if I didn't get a rez.
On the other hand, I did group with many people that would get QUITE upset about it haha. I personally just don't mind if it takes 5 hours to gain a level with no deaths, or 8 hours to gain a level with 3 deaths (or whatever that formula ended up being). Fun is fun!
Exactly, if a game isn't fun at level 10, 20 or 30, I'm not going to play it to 50.
If it IS fun at those levels, then what's the rush to 40 or 50 whatever my next level is.
Loss of experience just means I GET to be whatever level I am that much longer.
Never once did I seek a rez, I wouldn't pass it up if offerd, but I didn't look for one. Actually the best benifit of a rez was travel back to where you died!