Zorkon said:Ranarius said:I'm the same as Zorkon, I was never bothered much by the exp loss (enough that I obviously tried not to die) but I never felt distrought if I didn't get a rez.
On the other hand, I did group with many people that would get QUITE upset about it haha. I personally just don't mind if it takes 5 hours to gain a level with no deaths, or 8 hours to gain a level with 3 deaths (or whatever that formula ended up being). Fun is fun!
Exactly, if a game isn't fun at level 10, 20 or 30, I'm not going to play it to 50.
If it IS fun at those levels, then what's the rush to 40 or 50 whatever my next level is.
Loss of experience just means I GET to be whatever level I am that much longer.
Never once did I seek a rez, I wouldn't pass it up if offerd, but I didn't look for one. Actually the best benifit of a rez was travel back to where you died!
Hmm good point being made. I'm not a fan of the naked run, but XP loss alone isn't really much of a sting to a lot of people, myself included, I suppose.
As long as there is plenty of content at any particular level, then staying there twice or more as long as you would without deaths *shrug* who cares. Could even be seen as good if mentoring isn't in and you know that your friends are lagging behind.
I wonder is there anything else that could be used as a death 'sting' aside from losing gear (even temporarily) and losing XP?...
In some games you would get significant gear damage that would need repair (and hence cost you money) it was considerable amounts in some games. Whilst I *hate* item damage and maintainance for being tedious and unheroic, some kind of money loss would be a good sting to most people.
Maybe you should have to pay for resurrection debuff to be removed?... Hmm that's quite an annoying mechanic too...
Anyone have any innovative ideas?
disposalist said:I wonder is there anything else that could be used as a death 'sting' aside from losing gear (even temporarily) and losing XP?...
In some games you would get significant gear damage that would need repair (and hence cost you money) it was considerable amounts in some games. Whilst I *hate* item damage and maintainance for being tedious and unheroic, some kind of money loss would be a good sting to most people.
Maybe you should have to pay for resurrection debuff to be removed?... Hmm that's quite an annoying mechanic too...
Anyone have any innovative ideas?
I think in general people are overthinking the penalty for dying and seeking to skew the balance from a fair punishment toward overly harsh.
This game should be head and shoulders more difficult that EQ, meaning death should likewise be more common. Death is also something that isn't always (or even necessarily often) the result of personal mistakes, being a group game (and we DO want to encourage players meeting/grouping with new people outside their circles) AND an open world where other players/groups can potentially get you killed. Then on top of that the more challenging areas/encounters will likely require massive amounts of death to learn.
I really don't think it needs to be anything beyond a loss of time for players (experience). A minimum of 5% exp loss per death if all recovery options used, or 15-20% loss if they do not do a corpse run/get a rez and decide to cut their losses to do something else with their night.
Iksar said:disposalist said:I wonder is there anything else that could be used as a death 'sting' aside from losing gear (even temporarily) and losing XP?...
In some games you would get significant gear damage that would need repair (and hence cost you money) it was considerable amounts in some games. Whilst I *hate* item damage and maintainance for being tedious and unheroic, some kind of money loss would be a good sting to most people.
Maybe you should have to pay for resurrection debuff to be removed?... Hmm that's quite an annoying mechanic too...
Anyone have any innovative ideas?
I think in general people are overthinking the penalty for dying and seeking to skew the balance from a fair punishment toward overly harsh.
This game should be head and shoulders more difficult that EQ, meaning death should likewise be more common. Death is also something that isn't always (or even necessarily often) the result of personal mistakes, being a group game (and we DO want to encourage players meeting/grouping with new people outside their circles) AND an open world where other players/groups can potentially get you killed. Then on top of that the more challenging areas/encounters will likely require massive amounts of death to learn.
I really don't think it needs to be anything beyond a loss of time for players (experience). A minimum of 5% exp loss per death if all recovery options used, or 15-20% loss if they do not do a corpse run/get a rez and decide to cut their losses to do something else with their night.
*shrug* I don't think 'overthinking' is fair. It's simply receiving some great attention and discussion and I think that is hardly surprising since death in an MMORPG is a fundamental mechanic of almost paramount importance. In my opinion, death and the repercussions of death are pivotal to how combat (and environmental peril of other kinds) *feel* and very little can be more impactful in any game where death matters at all (which is just about every game from Space Invaders onward).
It will need testing. In EQ the vast majority of corpse recoveries weren't actually difficult at all and the naked corpse run not much more difficult, just involving more caution and help, which is rarely a problem to organise and actually a good thing to encourage.
I don't enjoy hardcore permadeath games at all, but I would still like to see the death penalty in Pantheon be more 'severe' than it felt in EQ. I truly believe a large problem with modern MMORPGs is the reduction of death penalty and the way it has impacted pace and meaning. Modern MMORPGs are a manic, careless 'ride' through the content because no one really cares if they die.
But if Pantheon really is that much more 'difficult', then maybe the death penalty needs to be... lighter, sure. We don't want to scare people into inactivity. But I've always seen Pantheon as potentially (and hopefully) more complex and 'challenging', more interesting and meaningful, but as for feeling 'difficult'... will it, really?
As I say: I guess it will come out in testing. But what a lot of us are realising is XP loss means very little to a lot of players. Having to get back to your corpse to get your gear, however, is hard to disregard as a concern, and that is good. Having that (or something similarly impactful) *as well as* XP loss is needed.
The reason I'm asking for discussion of other options is that I realise some people don't look upon a naked corpse recovery as potential for enjoyment, so *forcing* it is perhaps not ideal. Personally, I think that requiring someone to seek help from others and/or develop tactics for a cautious journey are hardly wasted or unenjoyable and that if you don't find that kind of thing fun, then is an old school MMORPG what you are looking for anyway, BUT *shrug* why not explore other options, sure.
I do actually think there should be a way for people to get their corpse back if they just cannot or will not fetch it themselves, but that should mean no XP recovery or even further penalty to make it clear that it is to be an exception not a rule.
I would prefer the possibility of others being 'quested' to fetch lost corpses, though. Anyway, that's been discussed.
Ok so as a compromise between naked CR and wanting a better reason than XP to encourage a CR, how about a death debuff like resurrection sickness that is often talked about but is linked to your corpse and has a stiff penalty.
For example;
Each time you die you gain a stack of Soul Sickness that reduces health, mana, damage done, healing done by 21% for 2 hours and the only way to remove it is to loot your Soulstone off your corpse. After 4 deaths you are at 84% debuff and basically naked at that point. Deaths after that add an additional X amount to the timer on the most recent stack or something to prevent zerging. The timer on the debuff only runs in game so you can't just log out to get rid of it.
This may be stiff enough to make you think twice before simply abandoning your corpse to continue on elsewhere. The numbers could be tweaked. Perhaps 30% for 3 stacks capped at 90% I dunno. But still allows you to CR with your sword handy.
Edit:
Just wanted to add that perhaps 2 hours is not long enough but it would all be tweaked. Perhaps the debuff lasts until your corpse decays. Also that I realize death debuffs exist in other games but they usually are pretty weak in one way or another and can be easily ignored. We would want this to be enough incentive to really make you consider going after your corpse.
That's not really a compromise, at that point you are still locking players into a forced gameplay loop with no real option to cut their losses other than to stop playing/waste time leaving the game running until the debuff wears off.
Also if the game is tuned at all then a group being debuffed by 20% means they still cannot recover their corpses without dying to whatever killed them when they were operating at 100%. This would make keeping gear when you die pointless in the end. In general I don't agree with debuff penalties for dying, kicking people when they are already down.
Iksar said:That's not really a compromise, at that point you are still locking players into a forced gameplay loop with no real option to cut their losses other than to stop playing/waste time leaving the game running until the debuff wears off.
Also if the game is tuned at all then a group being debuffed by 20% means they still cannot recover their corpses without dying to whatever killed them when they were operating at 100%. This would make keeping gear when you die pointless in the end. In general I don't agree with debuff penalties for dying, kicking people when they are already down.
They CAN recover there corpses Iksar, even naked, people did it for years in EQ. One simply ask others for help. It seems THATS the part you really want to avoid. Thats unfortunate since what I understand is they have promised us a social game, and I see working together in battle and in recovery as part of that.
I created an account in January on P99. About 20 minutes into exploring I died and realized I had forgotten the old trick of /loc before dying. So I had no idea where to even look for my corpse. I simply asked in /ooc for some help and within 5 minutes I had my corpse back.
I know this is not the same as dying deep in a dungeon, but it's the same concept. It was something I could not have accomplished on my own so I asked for help ... and help arrived!
Zorkon said:They CAN recover there corpses Iksar, even naked, people did it for years in EQ. One simply ask others for help. It seems THATS the part you really want to avoid. Thats unfortunate since what I understand is they have promised us a social game, and I see working together in battle and in recovery as part of that.
Corpse recovery was rarely a concern to me in EQ and regardless of when it was I was always far more concerned with the lost exp. I just think in the modern age players should have the option to cut their losses and do something else with their time should they choose if they died somewhere that would take a long time to return to.
If a group decides to go try unpopular dungeon X and gets wiped deep into it with no/few other players in or possibly even near the zone then I think those people should be able to eat their 15-20% xp loss and do something else with their night instead of sitting around begging someone else to come clean up their mess. Dying deep in Najena, Splitpaw, Dalnir, and others was pretty well a guaranteed kiss of death to someones play session unless they were well connected or had plenty of coin to offer.
Iksar said:That's not really a compromise, at that point you are still locking players into a forced gameplay loop with no real option to cut their losses other than to stop playing/waste time leaving the game running until the debuff wears off.
Also if the game is tuned at all then a group being debuffed by 20% means they still cannot recover their corpses without dying to whatever killed them when they were operating at 100%. This would make keeping gear when you die pointless in the end. In general I don't agree with debuff penalties for dying, kicking people when they are already down.
I meant it as a compromise to Naked CR.
To the second part I disagree. Usually you would approach with stealth, invis, invis vs undead, drag corpse from max /corpse range possible. If the location of the corpses is in a room that you cannot break naked/debuffed then sure you would have to get a summon or help from a higher level or another group.
Iksar said:If a group decides to go try unpopular dungeon X and gets wiped deep into it with no/few other players in or possibly even near the zone then I think those people should be able to eat their 15-20% xp loss and do something else with their night
I think that is exactly what people are worried about is that it will be common place to do so rather than do any difficult retrievals or to be forced to work with others. Why bother to spend time finding a rogue or invis or necro or monk to FD pull corpses if you can just go get that exp back and continue looting? I suppose xp penalties scale alright if higher levels take much longer. I certainly tried Very hard for a res during the old EQ Hell levels for example. I feel the same concerns about repair / gold based penalties that every game I can recall them in I reach a point fairly early on where it Never matters again because the amount is trivial.
Edit: Boy I have a hard time with the spacing here ack. It's either all one block or way far apart haha
Iksar said:Zorkon said:They CAN recover there corpses Iksar, even naked, people did it for years in EQ. One simply ask others for help. It seems THATS the part you really want to avoid. Thats unfortunate since what I understand is they have promised us a social game, and I see working together in battle and in recovery as part of that.
Corpse recovery was rarely a concern to me in EQ and regardless of when it was I was always far more concerned with the lost exp. I just think in the modern age players should have the option to cut their losses and do something else with their time should they choose if they died somewhere that would take a long time to return to.
If a group decides to go try unpopular dungeon X and gets wiped deep into it with no/few other players in or possibly even near the zone then I think those people should be able to eat their 15-20% xp loss and do something else with their night instead of sitting around begging someone else to come clean up their mess. Dying deep in Najena, Splitpaw, Dalnir, and others was pretty well a guaranteed kiss of death to someones play session unless they were well connected or had plenty of coin to offer.
See now that’s not my experience at all, In any server or Guild I was ever a member of in early EQ. What you just described was one of the greatest quest/adventures we could go on, it had everything.
"begging"? Please can I get an invite? exciting times!
nope, not my experience at all, something like you described simply got mentioned in the guild and everybody was logging off the alt’s and getting the mains (if they weren’t already on them). And it was ON Nobody ever begged for such things.
@Zorkon haha yes I like it. I would almost always help someone out if I were on a class that could. I loved to be a hero and FD my way down and up a dungeon dragging a corpse lol. Or invis and that constant apprehension of "is it going to break" then when the message does come, looking for a safe spot to recast. So fun! Also had my share of a higher level dragging my corpse up through greys, took them 5 minutes /shrug.
To that point how about early EQ Hate/Fear raids that have already been mentioned a bit about having to log out a cleric on the wall in case of wipes, the entire raid would be huddled up in a corner to pull to because it was too dangerous to just wander around until you cleared. I mean the fear of death and losing a corpse and naked CR in a plane Made it what it was. It made it great, everyone in the raid had real skin in the game, if you failed too utterly you might be waiting for another guild to come clear it out before you could recover. When the consequences are that big, you actually have to plan things out and you get guenuine emotions while playing.
All the talk of EQ I suppose gets old to some but my counterpoint to that is thinking back on the majority of MMOs since then. I don't recall having that anxiety and adrenaline to the same extent in many of them. SWG Jedi when it was still perma-death certainly had me grinding safely near my PA city and backup from friends lol. Very early EQ2 with shared Group experience debt was a pretty good deterrent when you had someone who wouldn't listen and now everyone had a huge pile of debt you had to kick them for not listening. I guess there were some early WoW moments.
I suppose there isn't much of a middle ground here. There are those that see the 1 out of X chance you can't get help as a deal breaker. While the other side sees it as an intregal part of what makes it fun, the Risk vs reward and the social interactions it creates. Most of the above stories are Lost without a significant death penalty.
GeneralReb said:I meant it as a compromise to Naked CR.
To the second part I disagree. Usually you would approach with stealth, invis, invis vs undead, drag corpse from max /corpse range possible. If the location of the corpses is in a room that you cannot break naked/debuffed then sure you would have to get a summon or help from a higher level or another group.
I think that is exactly what people are worried about is that it will be common place to do so rather than do any difficult retrievals or to be forced to work with others. Why bother to spend time finding a rogue or invis or necro or monk to FD pull corpses if you can just go get that exp back and continue looting? I suppose xp penalties scale alright if higher levels take much longer. I certainly tried Very hard for a res during the old EQ Hell levels for example. I feel the same concerns about repair / gold based penalties that every game I can recall them in I reach a point fairly early on where it Never matters again because the amount is trivial.
That in part depends on how common truesight dispositions/mob types are. Something EQ had almost none of. VR has mentioned mobs that can see through invis and even through FD. Regardless having a group of players have to spend their time (and time is precious) sitting around trying to get another full group to not only travel to them but also clear the way down for them isn't really a good look. If you are in an overcrowded zone or are a well connected individual with a large guild then sure it is likely no problem, but otherwise you could deplete someones entire game session on something as trivial as dying once.
I am not sure how encouraging players to more often take the path less traveled and try out less or entirely unpopulated areas/dungeons with their limited playtime by not having them possibly lock themselves into a huge timesink of a corpse recovery is something to worry about. They'd still be losing a grip of time for failure should they choose to leave their corpses, likely far more time than engaging in the corpse recovery if they earnestly tried, but that should be their choice.
Zorkon said:nope, not my experience at all, something like you described simply got mentioned in the guild and everybody was logging off the alt’s and getting the mains (if they weren’t already on them). And it was ON Nobody ever begged for such things.
Must have missed where I said "unless they were well connected or had plenty of coin to offer."
Not everyone has (or wants to be in) a large guild. And even then, "mobilizing the troops" isn't generally something any old wallflower in a guild can do.
How about we try a mix of Everquest 1 and Vanguard?
You respawn with all your gear/items until level 10, after which you have 7 day's to get your stuff back. However you can summon your body back at an major city's or a waypoint, but you will take a massive durability hit to all gear that was equipped, something like 15-20%. This will even thing's out quite a bit, people who need to leave ASAP can, and people who don't want to blow some money on gear repairs can do the naked corpse run.
Wyatt said:How about we try a mix of Everquest 1 and Vanguard?
You respawn with all your gear/items until level 10, after which you have 7 day's to get your stuff back. However you can summon your body back at an major city's or a waypoint, but you will take a massive durability hit to all gear that was equipped, something like 15-20%. This will even thing's out quite a bit, people who need to leave ASAP can, and people who don't want to blow some money on gear repairs can do the naked corpse run.
There is no planned durability for Pantheon.
Oh, that would change thing's quite a bit. I guess then we should tie in non-equipped items, money, and experience to handle penalty's. How does this sound?
You respawn with all your gear/items until level 10, after which you have 7 day's to get your stuff back. However you can summon your body back at an major city's or a waypoint, but doing so will make it so that you lose all experience from a death penalty (where as if you do a corpse run you can regain 50-60% of it), and all non-equipped items & money are still at the place you died.
@Iksar I really do appreciate your concerns. I also have limited play time now adays and have never been an uber guild type of player. In fact I dislike the faceless huge guilds quite strongly, but have been in plenty that were a reasonable size but the player skill was high and helping hands aplenty.
I realize everything is going to be tuned and not all systems were in game for streams. The info we have from streams and the devs statements in those streams is that some how, some way, corpse runs are in as far as we know. They specifically mentioned summon corpse as a "there will be methods for players to recover corpses, something like summon corpse or other means" paraphrasing here hehe.
As to the truesight and FD part; First of all the devs seemed fairly in to FD pulling in the Cohh monk play. It seemed reliable in those but I think the system wasn't checking everything that it will in live lol. If I were the monk in your group I would take the risk to drag some corpses regardless. Secondly I don't know that "there is a risk involved for all CR skills (stealth, invis, FD, Not summon corpse)" is a valid argument against as that is the entire point. Because if there is no chance of failure on those skills, what is the point of having the CR in the first place? The risk and anxiety has to be there in order to make it Mean something and generate brain chems man! (and relationships).
Sometimes there just have to be circumstances that stop your monster slaying, sorry. There is more to the risk vs reward structure than just losing exp grind, and more to the world than my 2 hours of gameplay can not ever be sidelined by a set back that changes my plans for this play session.
I'm not saying no CR, just that CR should be about recovering lost xp which should be more than enough for the majority of players to almost always want to do them. Players should always be able to cut their losses and move on.
But this has been debated so much already, I'll just link this thread:
http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2087/let-s-talk-death-penalty/view/page/1
